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Jolly Puggles
23-08-2011, 17:31
I've run a Skryre themed Skaven army for a loooong time now and over the years have managed to pick up the odd one or two Rat Ogres here or there...with the purchase of the IoB set I finally have enough to field a decent sized unit (6 Rat Ogres plus 4 Packmasters) and decided to diverge my theme a bit and give them a try...

...let's just say that I was unimpressed. I was playing against Bretonnians, so I thought that their S:5 would be half-decent at punching armour in close combat (something I've been struggling to do up until now), but they were useless! I think I managed to get a single kill out of something like 21 attacks. I'd managed to get the charge in against a unit of KotR and ended up getting run down.

Now, I know it was motly due to bad rolls that this happened (in theory I should have managed to knock off at least 3, 4 or maybe 5 Knights, by the maths), but it got me thinking about how effective Rat Ogres really are. After all, 40pts is quite a lot of points for a single model without any armour. For instance, for the price of a single Rat Ogre and a Packmaster, I could get a Chieftain with a Halberd, which has less attacks but hits at the same Strength, at a higher WS.

So I did some comparisons. My first stop was the other Clan Moulder beasties; Giant Rats. You can get a whole heap of rats for the same price as a Rat Ogre and although they won't hit with the same Strength, you have a massive advantage in survivability. By my count, you get 13 Giant Rats for each Rat Ogre. That's a 10 Wound differential. Even though Rat Ogres are tougher, it makes them comparitively vulnerable to missile fire. For example; the unit I took (6 RO + 4 PM) has a total of 18+4 Wounds. If I'd spent the same points on Giant Rats I'd have about 80 (yes, count them, 80) Giant Rats (and I'd still have more Packmasters, too). 80 Giant Rats just isn't worth shooting at with conventional archers (or hell, even artillery won't dent a unit like that)...the only way to eliminate that many rats is to get into CC or unit-killer Magic (Dwellers, etc.). Rat Ogres, on the other hand, will swiftly lose combat efficiency to missile fire, magic missile spells and artillery. You can't even hide the Rat Ogres behind another unit 'cos they stick out like a sore thumb (TLoS and all that jazz).

I appreciate that the Giant Rats will not hit nearly so hard in combat, but with an almost guaranteed +3 Combat Res and +3 SiN Leadership from ranks as well as Wave of Rats giving them FiER, they're a safe bet on actually achieving something. Rat Ogres, on the other hand, I can see being taken out of the picture before being able to bring that tasty high Strength to bear.

Is there something I'm missing about Rat Ogres that makes them worth taking? What's the best way to get decent usage out of them, if at all? Or should I just leave them in the Bitz Box for use in conversions and dioramas?

Feefait
23-08-2011, 17:56
I've only begun playing with giant rats or rat ogres. I don't think Ogres have ever been worth it, until now. When i do play them i ahve to make sure they are a focus, which means 2 units. I use 1 unit of 6 and another of 5 with a warlord on bonebreaker. They are certainly not instawin, and once they lose combat they are in deep trouble, but used as flankers with clanrats or slaves, or a horde of 50 giant rats and they are potent. Going against low initiative armies I would recommend pairing them with a doomflayer to just outhit anything. Your rolling sounded very bad, so give them another shot.

BTW, Skaven should tear apart brettonians on any field, in any game. Steadfast hordes? Check. Lots of magic and ignore armor saves? check. One of the nastiest monsters in the game, with no (real) fear of flaming attacks? Sweet. Don't worry about gettign through their armor, just negate it with Globadiers, Cannons, Censer Bearers, etc.

Andy p
23-08-2011, 18:25
I dont want to rub salt in this metaphorical wound.....but to make things worse trolls are only 35 pts in the special section for O&G's.

Oseru
23-08-2011, 20:10
...and and O&G player not running a dozen trolls near their generally is crazy.

I've run ROgres five wide and two deep and they were devastating. Wider frontage was the key advantage and it is a big one.

The down side is that you have nearly 450pts tied up in one unit.

Nice Kans
23-08-2011, 20:24
RO are expensive for what they do compared to other armies. Then again skaven are not known for their amazing choices for hammers. I use them exclusively as flankers. Almost every time I go head to head with anyone other than armies like VC they die way too fast. They can be really frustrating to use but if you can learn to flank with them they can be devistating. Sometimes I use a unit of 3 wide unit of 6 with 4 packmasters and its not terribly expensive. I think they are key in giving my lists target saturation. When you have things like HPA and Furnace in your list they often get ignored. 21 str 5 attacks in the flank is hard for anyone to live through.

Jolly Puggles
23-08-2011, 20:24
...and and O&G player not running a dozen trolls near their generally is crazy.

I've run ROgres five wide and two deep and they were devastating. Wider frontage was the key advantage and it is a big one.

The down side is that you have nearly 450pts tied up in one unit.

Hmmm, 5 wide you say? I can see that working. More contact means more attacks. There's still the problem of vulnerability, but I suppose with greater numbers you can afford a couple of casulaties and still be effective when you reach combt.

High points units aren't so much a problem for me...my Stormvermin unit(s) usually come in at around the 450pts mark when you include the cost of the Chieftain/Warlord leading them.

Oseru
24-08-2011, 02:11
You do have the problem of steadfast in 5X2, but thats 35 attacks that'll wound on 2's in most situations. If you get lucky and fear pops you'll end up shreding stuff (the key is lucky).

Expect casualties. I've usually been able to handle one maybe two units before they're minimized as a threat. By that point you go to work where your slaves are hopefully still bogging things down.

warplock
24-08-2011, 09:22
Did you remember the ROgres are frenzied so have 4 attacks each? I am currently collecting some Rat Ogres and intend to run 6-8 of them with Skweel Gnawtooth in the unit. If they get the 'regenreration' roll they're pretty formidable. Sure that makes them way more expensive than trolls but they do have +2 I and +1A.

Question: Could you give Skavenbrew to ROgres?? 8 Rat Ogres with regeneration and 5 attacks each would be pretty immense.

Jolly Puggles
24-08-2011, 09:33
Did you remember the ROgres are frenzied so have 4 attacks each? I am currently collecting some Rat Ogres and intend to run 6-8 of them with Skweel Gnawtooth in the unit. If they get the 'regenreration' roll they're pretty formidable. Sure that makes them way more expensive than trolls but they do have +2 I and +1A.

Question: Could you give Skavenbrew to ROgres?? 8 Rat Ogres with regeneration and 5 attacks each would be pretty immense.

Yeah, I remembered the Frenzy...still, it doesn't help the supporting attacks which you still only get 3 of. It also, which is something I hadn't considered when I was writing the OP, means they're immune to Panic. Hmm...that changes my perspective a little. That means you've got to wipe the unit out before it hits CC to really stop them (or at least the Packmasters...stupid Stupidity not letting you get into combat anymore).

Answer: No. Skavenbrew is for Clanrats and Stormvermin only, I believe.

Iniesta
24-08-2011, 11:24
Rat ogres should get a flank charge on brets when you dont have to allocate so much on characters. Some cheap slaveunit should bog down the knights before you charge their big flank.

russellmoo
24-08-2011, 23:18
The problem is this- unless you run a horde of 18 rat ogres, they are a support unit-

Why?

Let's look at that KoTR unit- you charge in, on average you will inflict close to 3, maybe 4 wounds- the KoTR strike back, doing 2-3 we can say 2- you now have CR 6, against CR 5- you have only won by 1 and you managed to get in the charge- the point is against anything you fight, you are likely to need to overcome 3-4 static combat res-

This means that to get the most out of your rat ogres they either need to charge something squishy, or charge in after everything else- think of them like a more reliable warpfire thrower- use them on the flank to whittle down a unit- in the above example a flank charge would have led to something close to a 7 to 2 result-

In short- they work well, but need to be supported by a large unit of clanrats, plague monks, stormvermin-

haveyouseenaduck
25-08-2011, 21:35
[QUOTE=Jolly Puggles;5730646]

I appreciate that the Giant Rats will not hit nearly so hard in combat, but with an almost guaranteed +3 Combat Res and +3 SiN Leadership from ranks as well as Wave of Rats giving them FiER, they're a safe bet on actually achieving something. Rat Ogres, on the other hand, I can see being taken out of the picture before being able to bring that tasty high Strength to bear.

QUOTE]

I play WOC and almost lost a giant to 40 giant rats. The rats were death frenzied. So many attacks, and sooner or later they will wound. Very tough to kill so many.

SkawtheFalconer
26-08-2011, 10:49
Did you remember their stomps? That's five (assuming you go 5 wide) insta hit, wounding on 2s (against Brets) attacks.

Rochr
26-08-2011, 10:59
Since when can you stomp cavalry models?