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View Full Version : So how do I deal with a Hellpit with my orcs?



calnen
23-08-2011, 22:15
My dwarves are okay; "Shoot it with a cannon". My Empire have 2 options; cannons or fireballs. But what are my Orcs and Goblins meant to do?

I know the theory; I do my best to feed it units of goblins and hope it'll just go away. Trouble is, I can't pass break tests forever, even with steadfast, and if I keep my lord and BSB within 12" of a flanking A-bomb, there are other parts of the battleline where they're missing out. (eg, what if we play 2k and they send one down each flank?)

I'd rather not just take banner of Eternal flame - we generally don't tell one another what list we're using in advance, to prevent tayloring, so I'm after a solution in a general list.

For reference, my 1500 list normally consists of:
Savage orc big'un horde, with shaman (L2) and lord, with banner of discipline for Ld10
2 units of night goblins, 40 or 50 strong, nets, shields, sometimes a few fanatics
night goblin shaman, night goblin BSB
Trolls, 6 or 9 of them.
4 wolf chariots

From this list, pretty much whatever I've sent at it just gets eaten, even the trolls. What could I reasonably add that would do the job well?

No-One
23-08-2011, 22:19
big block of about 30 black orcs, maybe even throw in Grimgor, that'll get the job done

calnen
23-08-2011, 22:30
big block of about 30 black orcs, maybe even throw in Grimgor, that'll get the job done

Really? it just doesnt seem to work in my experience. I've only played skaven 4 or 5 times, but I've never managed to kill a Hellpit in combat.

Rough mathhammer:: 30 Black orcs will strike after it does. Assuming they're horde, and I end up front-on to him with nothing else fighting (pretty unlikely) then from experience he'll kill about 8 or 10 before I get to attack. Then I get 12 attacks on him, so 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2 or 3 get through regen. He kills another couple through thunderstomp. I take a break test.
Next turn he kills another bunch, I get fewer attacks but maybe take another wound off. Eventually I might kill him, but only after I've lost pretty much all of a 400 point unit trying to kill a 235 point monster. And this is still assuming that I meet him in the front, without him sending anything else along to even things up (like a big block of slaves to remove my steadfast, in which case it gets more likely I'll run away..)

yes Grimgor would do the job, but that's tailoring pretty much the whole feel of my list to do the job. He's a massive points sink, and his unit is just begging to get withered and plagued.

No-One
23-08-2011, 22:35
well hitting him head on is probably a bad idea to begin with, send one of your blocks of ngobbos into the front to tarpit so you can maneuver the blorcs in to flank charge, greatweapons first turn, two weapons the following turns

i agree that grimgore is a large pointsink, but if you dont think of him solely in terms of use as an a-bomb hunter, and just an all around good unit to field as a blender, its not too bad

then again, personal preference, to each their own

ihavetoomuchminis
23-08-2011, 22:37
Send him a pair of mangler squigs. Job done ^_^

Lord Inquisitor
23-08-2011, 22:38
I'd rather not just take banner of Eternal flame - we generally don't tell one another what list we're using in advance, to prevent tayloring, so I'm after a solution in a general list.
Take the banner of Eternal Flame. :shifty:

It's not list tailoring. The BoEF is useful against a whole host of nasties like Abombs, Hydra, etc.

I take the BoEF or some other form of flaming attacks in every tournament list I make just for Abombs. Useful against other things too, but mostly for Abombs. While, yes, I am taking the BoEF specifically to deal with Abombs, it is included in my all-comers list so I don't feel its tailoring.

Abombs are one of a very short list of things that are so unbalanced, you need to be prepared for them or you're in real trouble when you face them. Hydra, Steam Tanks, unkillable dreadlords, etc. Having counters for these things is sensible.

calnen
23-08-2011, 22:44
Take the banner of Eternal Flame. :shifty:

It's not list tailoring. The BoEF is useful against a whole host of nasties like Abombs, Hydra, etc.

I take the BoEF or some other form of flaming attacks in every tournament list I make just for Abombs. Useful against other things too, but mostly for Abombs. While, yes, I am taking the BoEF specifically to deal with Abombs, it is included in my all-comers list so I don't feel its tailoring.

Abombs are one of a very short list of things that are so unbalanced, you need to be prepared for them or you're in real trouble when you face them. Hydra, Steam Tanks, unkillable dreadlords, etc. Having counters for these things is sensible.

Okay, fair point. So any suggestions where to put it?
I normally take a unit of big'uns and a unit of trolls as my main combat blocks, so only the big'uns can take a banner. I can also take one on my BSB, but I feel like he needs proper armour as his reroll is so crucial.
Would you put the Banner on the big'un unit, and just run the army as leadership 9?

calnen
23-08-2011, 22:46
Send him a pair of mangler squigs. Job done ^_^

That's a good idea. I haven't been using them since I dont have models made up, but they'd do the job really well and have lots of other uses too.

Would 2 manglers hitting an abomb kill it? I cant remember the stats that well.

Lord Inquisitor
23-08-2011, 22:47
I would put it on a unit of black orcs or other heavy hitters.

Although in a nice big unit of arrer boyz you can drop the thing at range. Doubt such units can take a magic banner though? It'd have to be a BSB.

Felworth
24-08-2011, 02:10
Manglers are more then capable of killing an Abomination. Just keep them away from expendable Skaven troops (IE, everything thats NOT the Abomination) and stop any Skaven wizards from casting teleportation magic. Having an Engineer dropped on a Mangler turn one is never a good experience.

As for Blorcs... yeah, they *can* kill an Abomination but they're going to take horriffic losses and be rendered useless afterwords to do so. Heh, and that provided they don't get 13th spelled into clan rats.

Also depends on magic. If you use Gobbo wizards, hitting an Abomination with Itchy should lower its iniative enough for a Giant to have decent enough chance of clobbering it with his club.

Or heck, through an Arachnarok at it. It'll lose some wounds but in my anectdotal experience Charlotte can kill just about any monster thats not a Chaos War Mammoth...

Djekar
24-08-2011, 06:18
I'm with LI on this one. Include it. It's 10 points and it is really the only way that Orcs deal with anything that has regen.

Another trick in the vein of the mangler squigs is to buy fanatics for some night goblins, put the little gobbos behind your lines and have them throw the fanatics through your own troops to either hit the abomb or at best to stop in it's path so it has to end on them. It probably won't kill them (stupid regen), but any wounds you can put on it before combat increases your likelihood to kill it before you run out of bodies.

Von Wibble
24-08-2011, 11:47
I would put it on a unit of black orcs or other heavy hitters.

Although in a nice big unit of arrer boyz you can drop the thing at range. Doubt such units can take a magic banner though? It'd have to be a BSB.

It would. But that is not a bad thing as the bsb can switch units to give the benefits to where they are needed.

Fieos
24-08-2011, 12:16
I struggle with taking magical banners on a BSB for OnG due to the real necessity of keeping that BSB alive. If you are worried about D13th then take a unit of your flavor of Boar Boyz with the flaming banner to go Monster hunting. Much better mobility and immunity to thunderstomp. Then your BSB can be 'Armed to da Teef'!

Von Wibble
24-08-2011, 14:59
I would say with T5 orcs and goblins have far less problems taking a magic banner than most, but yes, that is a disadvantage.

If I had to choose between giving the banner to a ranged or combat unit I'd go for combat as a preference as long as the I was high enough.

Dungeon_Lawyer
24-08-2011, 17:45
Venom surge from a an arachnorok or the eternal flame banner (#1 option due to tactical flexability so many good uses beside the HPA) are the best options. The mangler squigs in an interesting idea as well.

Im surprised no has mentioned war machines yet. Put the banner of eternal flame on a bsb, put him (for starters, switch him into a cc unit once you get stuck in) in a unit of goblin or orc arrer boyz & fire! Hope for a flaming wound by one of the arrrows, then start blasting the HPA with war machines once its regen is down....

russellmoo
24-08-2011, 18:34
Personally, I don't see why the Banner of eternal flame isn't in every single list-

Here's why- Watchtower scenario- flaming attacks is very helpful against troops in a building- your BoEF goes on what ever unit you would use to drive an opponent from the watchtower (Blorcs or big unz)

There is also the Ruby Ring-

You can also use a horde of nightgoblins, or savages, just buff them before hand-

Personally, I don't like the Arach's odds against the Abom- the abom is likely to kill the arach in less than 2 turns- however, there is the chance that the two will kill each other-

Harwammer
24-08-2011, 19:29
For reference, my 1500 list normally consists of:
Savage orc big'un horde, with shaman (L2) and lord, with banner of discipline for Ld10If your orcs have general problems with regen monsters (who doesn't!?) then your all comers list should have the flame banner. Given my next comment in this post you'll have to change some units around for a viable unit to carry it (or use the bsb).

The 'next comment': I hate to rain on your parade but only regular orc big unz (not savages), black orcs, the bsb and boar boyz (any kind) can take a magic banner.

calnen
24-08-2011, 20:53
Thanks for all the replies chaps.

War machines - I'm currently not taking any. I've got rock lobbers and doom divers, but I've swapped them out in favour of tarpit units. I could give spear chukkas another go, but having tried once or twice and found them pretty useless, I'd given up.

I'll give the boar boys option a go - I havent used any in ages. Maybe 12 savage orcs with BOEF? Lots of S5 attacks if I get the charge in - hopefully they'll do the job.

Ghremdal
24-08-2011, 21:40
The core of my all comers list is a unit of Black Orcs with a BOEF. Its pretty much the only mandatory unit. We play with lots of terrain, and there is usually a building, so the banner gets use. Plus causing fear to cavalry is a small plus.

That being said, I found that trolls work fairly well against trouble units; the regeneration keeps them alive somewhat longer then most things, and if you keep a full rank alive at then end of combat (only 3 trolls) they get steadfast against monsters. Also being to stupid to be afraid helps.

NTJ2010
24-08-2011, 21:53
Banner of the Eternal Flame (never leave home without one for Watchtower, trolls, hydras, etc) as the book puts it, flaming attacks aren't usually a big deal but when they come in handy it pays off handsomely.

Doom divers also work (especially since skaven usually lack a unit that is heavily armoured worth shooting) not a fix all but doom divers are also nice to always have.

The spider actually works pretty well especially the every once in a while venom surge gets through.

Black orcs are also golden, the alternative is the goblin tarpit as others have mentioned

(I'm sure most of these ideas aren't new) Gift of the Spider God (or whatever the spell is called) will also help if you get a unit like extra hand weapon boyz or savage orcs on him, you'll have a chance to ignore his toughness.

Cragum
24-08-2011, 22:43
If you want a cheap option to kill it then go with the spear chukkas! They work a right treat against big squibbly beasts!

The two mangler thing could be a problem with skaven and their vast ranged units dotted within their army. But if they got in i could imagine them giving it a run for its money!

Vampiric16
26-08-2011, 14:52
If all the monster movies I've watched have taught me anything, it's that the best way to combat a giant monster is with ANOTHER giant monster. Send that spider in and to hell with the consequences.

Gaargod
26-08-2011, 15:06
If all the monster movies I've watched have taught me anything, it's that the best way to combat a giant monster is with ANOTHER giant monster. Send that spider in and to hell with the consequences.


Yes, that tends to work. It also tends to cause havoc in the poor little people crushed underneath the fight!


Banner of the Eternal Flame is a mandatory include in... well, basically any list. There are just too many things with regen (not to mention Earthblood, the regen giving signature spell of lore of life). Its very sad that pretty much every single army will have it (its probably actually more prevalent even than Crown of Command!), but there it is.
Black Orcs are a good unit to give it to, as you're not wasting your BSB's magical allowance, and they don't really need Razor standard, and your general probably won't be in that unit for Discipline to be useful.


Spear Chukkas, despite their stupid misfire table now, are still a ridiculous steal at 35pts. Again, there's too many monsters walking about not to have a few.


I would argue against using boar boys against it though. They cost a lot, and unless you're lowering its Initiative before you go in, it'll kill half of them before you even get to swing.

Malorian
26-08-2011, 15:15
If all the monster movies I've watched have taught me anything, it's that the best way to combat a giant monster is with ANOTHER giant monster. Send that spider in and to hell with the consequences.

:p

I like this answer the best.

popisdead
02-09-2011, 20:15
Aren't Rock Lobbers stone throwers? S9 centre D6 wounds? What about Doom Divers? What about 35 point SpearChukkas?

herohammer
02-09-2011, 22:35
mangler squigs will destroy it and an aracharok will beat an hpa 1 on 1 but of course costs more points and skaven can spam a lot of units so you aren't guaranteed an even 1v1 fight since the last thing the rats want is for an hpa to go down without getting any points since it represent a good chunk of the stuff in a skaven army that is actually good at earning points. Most of a skaven's lord pts and a big chunk of core go into an unkillable bell unit that never gives up any pts, slaves are a waste of time to kill for the number of wounds you have to do to get the pts. The seer general, hpa, doomwheels, and wlc/mortars/globes/gutter runners/monks/pcc and doom rocket shots are the only things skaven have that actually try to kill their pts cost in stuff, everything else just is pts denial and tarpits. The general is entirely invincible on his bell, the wlc and pcc are at the board edge, the monks are pushing a furnace and the globes are sitting behind 5million clanrats. The only things you can kill in a skaven army to win are the hpa, gutter runners (which only matter if they run 10+ guys a unit with poison), and doomwheels.

If you have fire or a spider the easiest thing to kill is actually the hpa so running flame banner isn't so much tailoring as it is playing smart against the strongest power army in the game.

Okuto
03-09-2011, 00:54
I threw trolls at one and it did pretty ok

The bearded one
03-09-2011, 01:10
Hitting your opponent in the face and stealing his HPA is always a nice option :shifty: