PDA

View Full Version : what if the Emp had sent the SW after the NL instead of the TS?



MontytheMighty
24-08-2011, 02:42
would the Wolves taste defeat, or would they break the Night Lords?
would Curze be able to stand up to Russ in single combat?

I always thought the Night Lords deserved sanctioning more than the Thousand Sons.
Magnus violated the Emperor's command out of love, whereas Curze ignored his father and slaughtered innocent worlds because of his twisted views

MagosHereticus
24-08-2011, 02:58
night lords would have ravaged them, and although kurt would likely have allowed russ to murder him so that he could revel in the hypocrisy

i think the night lords were an extremely potent force which would have been hard to draw into battle and when they were it would have been on their own terms

Mánagarmr
24-08-2011, 06:27
night lords would have ravaged them, and although kurt would likely have allowed russ to murder him so that he could revel in the hypocrisy

I disagree. While Aaron has made the Night Lords a lot more badass than they used to be, I don't think they have what it takes to send The Rout packing.

The Wolves seem to be quite skilled at "sanctioning" other Legions. I also don't think the Night Lords, who use fear, and shock tactics as a primary weapon, would excel against fellow Astartes.


i think the night lords were an extremely potent force which would have been hard to draw into battle and when they were it would have been on their own terms

When they failed at Terra, many Legions did exactly that. Play to their strengths, fight on their terms - during a fighting retreat. It didn't help them against the enraged Loyalists. I don't think it would of helped them either. Especially not with the Night Haunter being unstable / suicidal.

MagosHereticus
24-08-2011, 06:47
the scouring possibly took centuries and took a huge toll on imperial forces even though the traitors were divided and leaderless and in full route, and the night lords possess the kind of maneuvering and tactical flexibility that saw the lion easily accomplish what the wolf could not

Lemonbrick
24-08-2011, 07:33
I dont feel the Space Wolves would be a good match up for the Night Lords(as much as I am not a space wolf fan), and while Konrad I feel could kick Russ I just could not see the Night Lords tactics of terror / communications blackouts and strikes having much of impact on the wolves.

That saying night lords rule! and deserve much better that the silly bat winged helmets they were cursed with.

agurus1
24-08-2011, 07:46
from "Prospero Burns" it becomes evident that the Wolves were intended as an Anti-Astartes weapon. The Emperor's Executioners. Remember just because they can be a brawling lot in the mead-hall, the Space Wolves, and Russ in particular, have that kind of animal, pack, cunning and mentality that I think would play well against the Night Lords who seem to want to strike and then fade into the dark. The Wolves would have simply chased and harried them, hounding the Night Lords into a position from which there could be no escape.

And then it would be a straight up fight. Remember that the Night Lords were getting essentially the criminal underclass as recruits, the Wolves aspirants were battle hardened warriors BEFORE becoming Astartes. I think the Wolves would trounce the Night Lords. It would just be a question of time.

Wyrmwood
24-08-2011, 08:58
The thing is, the Space Wolves are warriors first, whereas the Night Lords are killers always. Night Lords are individuals and Space Wolves are primal packs. I'm not sure the Night Lords would last all that long once the Wolves got the drop on them, if the Wolves could do that. If not, then I'd say it would be a long campaign that ultimately ended with a Space Wolf victory. That said, the Night Lords are a much larger legion and they are, of course, still Astartes so it's difficult to say.

Mánagarmr
24-08-2011, 09:37
the scouring possibly took centuries and took a huge toll on imperial forces even though the traitors were divided and leaderless and in full route,

There's more to it than just renegade Astartes. All of the worlds and human forces that turned during the Heresy had to be dealt with, as well as the fleeing traitors.


and the night lords possess the kind of maneuvering and tactical flexibility that saw the lion easily accomplish what the wolf could not

I've never read anything that puts the Night Lords on the same tactical level as the Dark Angels - or the Lion.

I don't consider a reliance on "shock and awe", the dark and scaring mortals to be "tactical flexibility".

I think the Wolves would be snapping at their heels far too much for them to ever truly create a situation, or battle scenario that plays to their strengths. And even if they could, just how many times can hanging from rafters, or leaping from a shadow work on an enemy Astartes? Especially when said Astartes has supernatural senses, even amongst other super-humans and he feels no fear.

The Night Lords are criminals, rapists and murderers. Which makes them scary, yeah, to me.. as a mortal.. The Wolves are warriors though; they live for battle. In anything that even remotely resembles a pitched battle, or true "fight", the Wolves would destroy them.

FlashGordon
24-08-2011, 09:50
Space wolves have bigger dicks! My legion is better! ;)

Mánagarmr
24-08-2011, 09:52
Space wolves have bigger dicks! My legion is better! ;)

And everything seemed to be going so well.

MagosHereticus
24-08-2011, 09:57
And everything seemed to be going so well.

you forgot a smiley rolling it's eyes there at the end, someone might think you weren't being sarcastic

stormblade
24-08-2011, 10:11
I've never read anything that puts the Night Lords on the same tactical level as the Dark Angels - or the Lion.


Read Savage weapons then.

Lord-Caerolion
24-08-2011, 10:30
Read Savage weapons then.

Indeed. Don't underestimate the Night Lords as simply "mere thugs and rapists". They've been trained just as much as the other Legions, and proper terror tactics need a damn good strategy to work well. You can't just jump out from behind a rock and yell "Boo!"

Edit: Plus, the Night Lords always struck me as having an extensive fleet and armory, given their tendency towards orbital strikes and overkill.

Wyrmwood
24-08-2011, 10:38
Indeed. Don't underestimate the Night Lords as simply "mere thugs and rapists". They've been trained just as much as the other Legions, and proper terror tactics need a damn good strategy to work well. You can't just jump out from behind a rock and yell "Boo!"

Edit: Plus, the Night Lords always struck me as having an extensive fleet and armory, given their tendency towards orbital strikes and overkill.
True, but remember - they were lead by the Night Haunter. While he may be schizophrenic and, later, extremely self destructive he's not stupid or any less brilliant than the Lion or any other Primarch. That situation created the stalemate... For the time being.

Drakcore Bloodtear
24-08-2011, 10:39
You have to take into account what ABD said about both the World Eaters and Night Lords (Although I can't find the original passage, i'll paraphrase) it pretty much says that SW were the noble savages, the trained warriors, the pack animal.

While it stated that the NL were the dirty fighters, the brawlers 'we go for the eyes, then the tongue....'

Also the TS were understrength (I haven't actually read A Thousand Sons, but this is based off own knowledge) and not known for their fighting prowess compared to the NL and SW.

So would the SW have destroyed the NL, well it depends on who's writing. But my personal opinion is that the SW would suffer horrendous losses.

FlashGordon
24-08-2011, 10:41
I think the Thousand sons were only a thousand, but their powers made them as "strong as any legion"(quoted from the book but i do not remember where)

TheLionReturns
24-08-2011, 10:56
I think comparisons of tactical ability are fraught with difficulty. There is nothing I know of that hails Curze as a great tactician amongst the Primarchs (obviously all primarchs were pretty talented in this regard). However, given a large area to play with and no goal other than to delay the Dark Angels, the Night Lords seem well suited for this fairly easy task. The Dark Angels meanwhile have to protect a large area against a highly mobile enemy that does not wish to engage them in anything but a brief skirmish at best. This is not a fair fight with equal objectives and suits the Night Lords perfectly.

What I would say is that other legions may have been better suited for this kind of action. The Alpha Legion (although not much use being traitor too) and Raven Guard for example seem better at this asymetrical type conflict than the Dark Angels or the Space Wolves for that matter.

The Space Wolves always struck me as an irresistable force overwhelming a cornered enemy (as happened on Prospero). Then again maybe hunting down evasive enemies is what wolves do best. I do fear that the Wolves would have been more susceptible to the Night Lords taunts and been drawn into ambushes more easily.

The Dark Angels meanwhile seem more suited to facing an enemy that engages them and coming up with the grand strategy to overcome them with the efficient use of resources and time. One thing in their favour though is their self restraint and the keen eye (bordering on paranoia) of their primarch. This would have helped them avoid the traps the Night Lords laid, and perhaps part of the reason the Dark Angels were used.

Wyrmwood
24-08-2011, 11:30
I think comparisons of tactical ability are fraught with difficulty. There is nothing I know of that hails Curze as a great tactician amongst the Primarchs (obviously all primarchs were pretty talented in this regard). However, given a large area to play with and no goal other than to delay the Dark Angels, the Night Lords seem well suited for this fairly easy task. The Dark Angels meanwhile have to protect a large area against a highly mobile enemy that does not wish to engage them in anything but a brief skirmish at best. This is not a fair fight with equal objectives and suits the Night Lords perfectly.

What I would say is that other legions may have been better suited for this kind of action. The Alpha Legion (although not much use being traitor too) and Raven Guard for example seem better at this asymetrical type conflict than the Dark Angels or the Space Wolves for that matter.

The Space Wolves always struck me as an irresistable force overwhelming a cornered enemy (as happened on Prospero). Then again maybe hunting down evasive enemies is what wolves do best. I do fear that the Wolves would have been more susceptible to the Night Lords taunts and been drawn into ambushes more easily.

The Dark Angels meanwhile seem more suited to facing an enemy that engages them and coming up with the grand strategy to overcome them with the efficient use of resources and time. One thing in their favour though is their self restraint and the keen eye (bordering on paranoia) of their primarch. This would have helped them avoid the traps the Night Lords laid, and perhaps part of the reason the Dark Angels were used.
TheLionReturns is wise.

TheConverter15
24-08-2011, 12:15
Hmm, I think the Rout will pretty much destroy the Night Lords, partly because Space Wolves are the Emporer's Executioners :evilgrin:

Hellebore
24-08-2011, 12:33
All armies always try to fight on their own terms. Only a fool fights on his enemy's. The night lords are no different, they don't get to fight on their terms more often than everyone else just because they REALLY REALLY want to.

Thus, the winner would be the one that got to fight on their own terms to most, as is true for most wars. they don't even have to be first, just the most.

However, the kinds of tactics used by the night lords would be harder to implement against other astartes because they ues psychology as their main weapon, something all astartes are resistant to. Scare tactics wouldn't work as easily. They'd have to get tricky like dropping potent hallucinogen bombs, attacking astartes ego, trying to erode away the foundations that make them so hard to break. Convincing them that the emperor is dying, or some other catastrophic mindscrew etc.

Space wolves are quoted as not being rabid like blood angels, but patient hunters. As much as the stereotype of a boofhead comes to mind, one easily led around by the nose simply be insulting them and forcing them to charge you in stupid manner, space wolves are supposed to be intelligent hunters that corner their prey and then move in for the kill. The descriptions from the codices seem to infer that they let their feral instinctive nature to the fore only when the enemy is ripe for slaughter.

Hellebore

Brother of the Hydra
24-08-2011, 12:34
If the Wolves managed to get all the Night Lords in one place then yes they would have destroyed them and Konrad would have let Russ kill him as he would have seen it in his vision.

But given the Night Lords MO.... na, the SW would have been facing hit and run tactics from a foe vastly more experienced in that area. It might have worked out better in the long run for Horus if he had, they could have strung the SW out across the Galaxy and caused enough damage as to make them near useless.

Bold_or_Stupid
24-08-2011, 12:43
I think the Thousand sons were only a thousand, but their powers made them as "strong as any legion"(quoted from the book but i do not remember where)

Nope, they were a full (small) legion what ever that means. At the time Magnus saved them from the Flesh Changes there were 1000 survivors, hence the name, after Prospero there where again about 1000 left.

On topic, I feel the SW would win (please see my avatar...) but would take horrendous losses. The factor that would win for them:- they have heightened senses thus countering the Night Lords favorite tool, the night.

Buchy
24-08-2011, 12:43
Pfft - Acute Senses.

Timestamped:

20:36:24 Night Lords Captain: "Let's hit that SW supply camp 5km down the river at dawn"
20:36:27 Night Lords Lieutenant: "Good idea boss"

20:38:03 Space Wolves Camp Guard: "You guys smell something?"
20:38:06 Wolf Lord: "Smells like someone's going to try and hit us at dawn."


Suprise attack fails.

stormblade
24-08-2011, 12:48
Pfft - Acute Senses.

Timestamped:

20:36:24 Night Lords Captain: "Let's hit that SW supply camp 5km down the river at dawn"
20:36:27 Night Lords Lieutenant: "Good idea boss"

20:38:03 Space Wolves Camp Guard: "You guys smell something?"
20:38:06 Wolf Lord: "Smells like someone's going to try and hit us at dawn."


Suprise attack fails.

Because their sense of smell is not limited by time and space.

The Wolves can smell into the future!

Buchy
24-08-2011, 12:52
Because their sense of smell is not limited by time and space.

The Wolves can smell into the future!

Whoosh was the sound that post made when it flew over your head - set humour detector to /on.

stormblade
24-08-2011, 12:55
Whoosh was the sound that post made when it flew over your head - set humour detector to /on.

I'm currently reading, writing, listening and thinking stuff in four different languages so I hardly have any inclination towards detecting sarcasam in any of them.

Besides, I wanted to write "smell into the future".

Drakcore Bloodtear
24-08-2011, 13:08
Although it seems SM 'know no fear' it is simply conventional fear that we think of that SM know none of. NL aren't just about wearing scary masks and fighting at night, they strike at the SW honour, and reinforce the SW mortality.

They would lead counter attacks, killing hundreds of SW and show it to the highest Wolf Lords mockingly.
They would kill the greatest heroes and leaders, then portray their flayed corpses for all to see.
They would burn or harvest the fallen SW gene seed, poison their surfs and mortal crew and dispose of their alcohol.

The NL would strike fear into the SW that would force then to spew more marines into the meat grinder.






That is unless Cruze goes nuts and kills most of his legion again :rolleyes:

Lord-Caerolion
24-08-2011, 13:18
Uhh, when did Curze ever kill half his Legion? He was unstable, yes, but he never attacked his Legion, at least not on a large scale, or had them killed off, either.

Drakcore Bloodtear
24-08-2011, 13:36
Uhh, when did Curze ever kill half his Legion? He was unstable, yes, but he never attacked his Legion, at least not on a large scale, or had them killed off, either.

He sent his legion on suicidal missions because he hated what they had become.

FlashGordon
24-08-2011, 13:37
Nope, they were a full (small) legion what ever that means. At the time Magnus saved them from the Flesh Changes there were 1000 survivors, hence the name, after Prospero there where again about 1000 left.

On topic, I feel the SW would win (please see my avatar...) but would take horrendous losses. The factor that would win for them:- they have heightened senses thus countering the Night Lords favorite tool, the night.

Ah ok must be the reason "1000" circling around my head. Thanks.

shadowhawk2008
24-08-2011, 13:52
He sent his legion on suicidal missions because he hated what they had become.

Do you have a quote for that?

Captain Semper
24-08-2011, 13:58
Magnus let the Wolves win. He chose to let them land unobstructed, refused to personally join the fight until very late, and sort of felt he proved a point (of loyalty?) to the Emperor by sitting tight and being hurt. If Magnus were to use his full potency from the beginning of the conflict the result would by no means be so straight forward.

Curze also had issues with the Emperor and wanted to prove a point with his (and his Legion's?) destruction. I wouldn't be surprised that if the Emperor was to unleash the Wolves on the NL, Curze's inaction or active boycotting of his legion's ability to fight would probably result to a similar end as with the TS.

I can't help but think that unlike most (all?) Primarchs, Curze in the end had an intense dislike for his Legion... So unlike Magnus who thought it was only him to blame for his transgression in the eyes of the Emperor, maybe Curze saw the moral deterioration of his Legion as much as a part of his "transgression" as his different view on how to run the Imperium. In any case I could see Curze willingly sabotageing (sp?) his own Legion...

zantis
24-08-2011, 14:02
Here's another effect that wouldve come from prospero not being destroyed. magnus wouldnt have turned traitor. He wouldve fought the traitors, and eventually gone to terra to sit in the golden throne. If the emperor didnt have to sit there for most of the heresy, he wouldve squashed the whole thing way before it reached terra.
I still think the biggest mistake the emperor made was pissing off magnus.

Wyrmwood
24-08-2011, 14:06
Do you have a quote for that?
Index Astartes: Bringers of Darkness, Pg.26:

'The hand of the Night Haunter was still evident in the acts of his Legion, but it is obvious from field recordings of the time that the battle orders of their Primarch had changed. Where they were originally cold and calculating, the Night Lords now struck against overwhelming odds, their tactics eventually betrayed a self destructive desperation. It is quite possible that the Night Haunter was aware of the fact that The Emperor had finally issued the order for his life to be terminated at the hands of the Cadillus temple of assassins.

MagosHereticus
24-08-2011, 17:07
Index Astartes: Bringers of Darkness, Pg.26:

'The hand of the Night Haunter was still evident in the acts of his Legion, but it is obvious from field recordings of the time that the battle orders of their Primarch had changed. Where they were originally cold and calculating, the Night Lords now struck against overwhelming odds, their tactics eventually betrayed a self destructive desperation. It is quite possible that the Night Haunter was aware of the fact that The Emperor had finally issued the order for his life to be terminated at the hands of the Cadillus temple of assassins.

wasn't that during the scouring? then the heresy had failed and he and his legion essentially been keeping themselves occupied until retribution was to arrive and martyr kurt?

Endobai
24-08-2011, 19:49
Here's another effect that wouldve come from prospero not being destroyed. magnus wouldnt have turned traitor. He wouldve fought the traitors, and eventually gone to terra to sit in the golden throne. If the emperor didnt have to sit there for most of the heresy, he wouldve squashed the whole thing way before it reached terra.
I still think the biggest mistake the emperor made was pissing off magnus.

It didn't really happen at Prospero, but earlier when he attempted to warn the Emperor destroying his work with the spell.
He might decide to redeem himself though, but noone says it would happen early enough with Tzeentch exacting his price for 'saving' the TH.
From his story about the begining of the Prospero cults it is certain that Tzeentch played him from the very start and wasn't going to let go.

orz192
24-08-2011, 21:58
A more interesting story would be what would have happened if the Emporer had sent the Night Lords after the Thousand Sons.

Drakcore Bloodtear
24-08-2011, 22:12
A more interesting story would be what would have happened if the Emporer had sent the Night Lords after the Thousand Sons.

The same would have happened, instead their would be no TS left :p

orz192
24-08-2011, 23:01
The same would have happened, instead their would be no TS left :p

I meant with more specifity. It would make an interesting story.

sabreu
24-08-2011, 23:20
Curze would have landed on Prospero, not fought, and counseled with Magnus methinks.

Xisor
24-08-2011, 23:55
A more interesting story would be what would have happened if the Emporer had sent the Night Lords after the Thousand Sons.

I agree on this, actually.

Moreover, there's some other neat aspects to consider too:
- Why Russ was sent?
- Why Magnus not Angron or Night Haunter?

I can't remember where it comes from offhand, but it struck me that Russ had to be on/near Terra when dispatched against Magnus. But what would have happened if Magnus' message/Horus' fall didn't happen for a few more years? E.g. if Russ had got fed up with the Emperor hiding away before everything else fell into place?

Is it conceivable that the roles could have been reversed: that the Wolves would be the ones who'd need sanctioning (if their 'famous restraint' finally snapped; they bite their owner's family...). Again, I doubt the Sons would've been sent against them, so we can leave that aside (though it's not inconcievable that the Emperor might've finally brought the Sons into the fold re: the Webway and used them as a webway-force to help the Custodes/Sisters properly).

The obvious anti-Wolf candidates (well, anti-Anyone candidates but as the Wolves aren't available...) would IMO be the Night Lords and the World Eaters: neither of them would be sullied by the act. (Unlike, say, sending the Salamanders, Sons of Horus, White Scars or, had they not already been tainted, Word Bearers.)

But would it have been effective? The dynamic between Russ and Magnus was the route cause of why Magnus accepted the censure, I think: somehow Russ had been proven right.

But if it was Night Haunter? Or Angron? Or Mortarion?

Well, the first two, I think Magnus wouldn't have minded, he might have actually set up a proper defence. If Mortarion? Well, he was a pretty potent chap.

But what if the Emperor had sent a 'neutral' Legion? What if he'd sent Horus?

Stonerhino
25-08-2011, 02:46
I don't think any other single Legion would be a good anti-wolf force. In Battle of the Fang the Tousand Sons needed speciallised ships and cannons just to deal with the Fang's defences. And that was against a most empty Fang and no defending fleet.


Moreover, there's some other neat aspects to consider too:
- Why Russ was sent?
- Why Magnus not Angron or Night Haunter?Russ, was sent because that was kind of his job. If the "Executioner" thing is correct. Also in Index Astartes it says that Russ pushed the Emperor to let him do it.
At Russ' insistance, the Emperor was persuaded that Magnus was the traiter, not Horus.Why Magnus???
Because Chaos felt that the THousand Sons could stop the HH without the outcome they wanted. Chaos, also felt that the Space Wolves where the other legion that could stop it. So Chaos set up events that would cause these to legions to fight each other.

While I can understand why you would not want someone like Magnus fighting against you ["You" being Chaos]. But the Space Wolves don't really make sence. They are not that big of a fighting force, not compaired to the 9 traitor legions in any combination. At least not untill you consider the "Fear factor" and what effects it could have had on some of the legions that sided with Horus.

In Battle of the Fang:
When Wyrmblade was telling Morek Karekborn about the Space Wolves place in the galaxy.

Such is the will of the Allfather. He made us not to construct empires, but to murder them. We were bred to perform the tasks that no other Legion could, to fight with such extravagence that even our brother warriors would shrink from treachery in the knowledge of what we, the Route, would do to them.

That power was exercised more then once. Most famously, as you know, against the enemy who now hammers at our doors.If the Space Wolves were the cause of one or more of the Lost Legions being "Lost". Then it makes sence that the HH did not start untill after they had been bled fighting the Thousand Sons. That way the Legions that were "Maybes" about becoming traitors would not have that to worry about them. Even more so if Horus could show them that he could manipulate Russ.

@NL v SW: The Night Lords would have suffered badly against the Space Wolves. Because the Emperor would have given Russ the tools to win. Just as he did vs Magnus.

sabreu
25-08-2011, 03:01
If the Space Wolves were the cause of one or more of the Lost Legions being "Lost". Then it makes sence that the HH did not start untill after they had been bled fighting the Thousand Sons. That way the Legions that were "Maybes" about becoming traitors would not have that to worry about them. Even more so if Horus could show them that he could manipulate Russ.

So far in the story I haven't read much of any of the traitor legions being 'maybes', other than the Thousand Sons and the Death Guard. All the others seem like they would have turned regardless of any external threats or 'fear'.

Bonzai
25-08-2011, 14:07
I agree on this, actually.

Moreover, there's some other neat aspects to consider too:
- Why Russ was sent?
- Why Magnus not Angron or Night Haunter?


Why was Russ sent? Short answer? Because he had killed a legion before, and therefore when the Emperor sent him, Magnus would know that the Emperor means buisness, and that no disobedience would be allowed. His very presence was a veiled threat. Remember, the Emperor didn't want Magnus killed, just brought back. Which is why no one else would have been appropriate.

It's been brought up before, the question as to why Russ was the emperor's executioner. For me, the reason is his loyalty, and sense of duty. Russ may not like having to kill a brother legion, but he will do it, and do it to the best of his ability. He is a loyal guard dog. He will follow his orders, and not over step his authority. Curze? Give a machavellian sociopath like him the authority to kill another legion, and who can say that he would stop at just one? Perhaps he would decide that more needed to be purged. Perhaps their homeworlds needed to be made an example of. Setting Curze or Angron loose on another legion is a reciepe for disaster. Russ was the best man for the job, and it was why he was chosen.


As for NL vs SWs.... I agree with the general consensus. In a straight up fight, the wolves would win. Though on a one on one fight I would bet on Curze to beat Russ. He nearly killed Johnson, beat down Dorn, and Corvax ran rather than face him. I think his edge is that most Primarchs would hesitate to kill a Brother, and would face moral conflictions when fighting one. Curze wouldn't even blink as he sunk his claws in. If the Nightlords were able to manuever, then the wolves would be bled pretty heavy. Curze was able to stall Johnson, who is 2nd to Horus when it comes to generalship and strategy. Russ would be far more reckless and easy to bait. Eventually the NL's may be caught and destroyed, but I think the effort would have gutted the SW legion.

MontytheMighty
25-08-2011, 14:50
I call BS

Curze beat down Dorn
we don't know how Curze "beat down" Dorn
Dorn verbally confronted Curze, Curze blacked out, Curze is on top of Dorn
sounds like Curze snapped and surprised Dorn

Lion did almost the same thing to Russ (except the Lion didn't proceed to maul his downed opponent), I never hear people going on about how great the Lion is because he knocked out Russ


He nearly killed Johnson
Jonson nearly killed him too (the authout stated on another forum that he intended to portray an evenly matched fight)
in the beginning of the fight, Jonson was toying with Curze because he was such a superior swordsman and arrogantly belittled his opponent
Curze made Jonson pay for being so dismissive of a fellow primarch


Corax ran rather than face him.
makes perfect tactical sense
a fair duel between Corax and Curze would probably be 50/50
Corax has just fought Lorgar, lost one of his lightning claws, taken several hits himself...along comes Curze, fresh and ready for battle, Lorgar is recovering on the side (possible 2 on 1 if Corax chooses to stay), the Raven Guard are being mowed down around him
I think he would be stupid not to withdraw

DuskRaider
25-08-2011, 15:11
Lion did almost the same thing to Russ (except the Lion didn't proceed to maul his downed opponent), I never hear people going on about how great the Lion is because he knocked out Russ.

The one thing I pulled away from that battle between Jonson and Curze was this: Curze was able to make Jonson sink to his level. This noble knight, proud and stoic and honorable, was reduced to a screaming lunatic at the end of that bout, which is saying something. They were matched evenly for the most part in a physical match (which says much of how it would go with Russ as well), but it was the psychological battle that it seems Curze had the upper hand in.

One must also remember, Primarchs aren't without fear and other human emotions. They exemplify all human traits, only amplified.

I believe, and this is just my opinion, that Curze could do similar to Russ. Make him lose his composure, cause him to make a mistake or leave an opening, and we all know he'd take advantage of it. Am I saying the Night Lords couldn't be defeated by Space Wolves or vice versa? No. It all depends on who has the upper hand and on who's terms the battle is currently on.

MontytheMighty
25-08-2011, 16:09
The one thing I pulled away from that battle between Jonson and Curze was this: Curze was able to make Jonson sink to his level. This noble knight, proud and stoic and honorable, was reduced to a screaming lunatic at the end of that bout, which is saying something.
perhaps...what I took away was this:
Jonson outclassed Curze by far during the stand-up portion of the fight
Jonson arrogantly taunted Curze and didn't go for the quick finish
Curze took Jonson to the ground and made Jonson pay for his arrogance

Freak Ona Leash
25-08-2011, 16:15
perhaps...what I took away was this:
Jonson outclassed Curze by far during the stand-up portion of the fight
Jonson arrogantly taunted Curze and didn't go for the quick finish
Curze took Jonson to the ground and made Jonson pay for his arrogance

The way the author described it, The Lion is a superb duelist while the Night Haunter is a deadly brawler. When The Lion was able to keep Kurze at bay with his practiced and refined swordwork, Kurze suffered. When Kurze brought the Lion down, things went south for the Angel's Primarch.

So you got it basically right.

Dakkagor
25-08-2011, 16:36
I'd put money on Russ and the Wolves.

Simply because the Space Wolves are heroes, and the Night lords are villains.

While in 40k there are an abundance of villains, the point of the heresy is that evil can be vanquished, at great cost.

So any story involving Russ and Kurze will involve the Night Lords being systematically destroyed until they abandon their primarch to his fate at Russ's hand. Kurze's victory will come in death and therefore vindication, and in having mauled the space wolf legion into being unable to contribute to the wider war.

(Also, Kurze was an emo. Nyah!)

Sensko
25-08-2011, 17:44
I think it would drag on a long time with the Night Lords simply running circles around the rout. I don't think Nighthaunter would risk taking on Russ, he knows he'd just get his own backside handed to him. On the other hand the wolves can be provoked to charge in and they lack the speedier units (jumppacks, bikes, landspeeders ect.) to effectually corner the Lords on the field.
Also, Sevatar and Sheng easily out-trashtalk the entire rout all by themselves.

Wyrmwood
25-08-2011, 18:56
I think it would drag on a long time with the Night Lords simply running circles around the rout. I don't think Nighthaunter would risk taking on Russ, he knows he'd just get his own backside handed to him. On the other hand the wolves can be provoked to charge in and they lack the speedier units (jumppacks, bikes, landspeeders ect.) to effectually corner the Lords on the field.
Also, Sevatar and Sheng easily out-trashtalk the entire rout all by themselves.
Unless at least one of the Wolves learn Nostraman and insult Sevatar's mother.

Bonzai
25-08-2011, 19:08
perhaps...what I took away was this:
Jonson outclassed Curze by far during the stand-up portion of the fight
Jonson arrogantly taunted Curze and didn't go for the quick finish
Curze took Jonson to the ground and made Jonson pay for his arrogance

What I took away was that Johnson would have been dead if there hadn't been out side interference.I also seem to recall Johnson "sucker punching" Curze and stabbing him right at the start. Curze over came that disadvantage and still nearly killed him, before being stabbed (again) before he could finish the job.

Xisor
25-08-2011, 22:36
@Bonzai & Stonerhino:

Fair points, both. But you raise a point I harp on about regularly, if you'll bear with me:

"At Russ' insistence".

We only have Russ'/Wolf's outlook on why Russ was an executioner. It strikes me as wholly a fabrication, an after-the-fact rationalisation. Russ and his Wolves might have been used to fight against another legion, but we don't know if that was because they were best suited or, more usually, because they were most expedient (e.g. nearby/available).

To put it another way: if you're going to rebel against the Emperor, do you want the legion (allegedly) designed to take you down, whose very purpose is to exterminate other legions, on your side or against you?

To that extent, I think Magnus' fall to Chaos is important, but not overwhelmingly mandatory. Similarly, it's concievable that somehow Angron and Curze might be the loyalists, with Russ being a rebel: all that'd have been needed is for Russ to 'snap' before Curze/Angron do.

Again, I mentioned before: Curze wasn't sanctioned by the Emperor, it seems, 'til very near/after the starting of the Heresy. Lorgar already had been. And Magnus. Angron hadn't, though.

It gives, in my estimation, a view as to the priorities of the Emperor, and important insight. Russ is a major factor in everything going on, not just an obedient soldier doing his job. (Similarly the Wolves are, to an extent, culpable: e.g. Wyrdmake.)

It's not difficult to imagine that the Wolves would start to fall out of sync with the Emperor's plan before other legions, given an only slightly different take on things.

(Again, that's assuming that the Wolves' being Executioners and 'the most disciplined' comes more from their own mind than from others. Magnus, in ATS, seemed more afraid because he knew, once unleashed...they wouldn't stop. Hence the big tiff he has with Russ [and Russ' psychic scream] in mid-ATS about the destruction of libraries.)

@ Bonzai on Johnson/Curze:

A D-B's talked on Warseer about it, as I recall: his intent for the scene is deliberately to show an undulating fight of equals. At the point it's stopped, it seems Johnson's due to die, but that's the point, it's an ongoing fight that wobbles, but isn't likely/obviously going to tip one way or t'other. That it stops where it does comes from both side's Astartes observers 'flinching' and recognising that they don't want to loose a primarch on a coin-toss. (This is bad paraphrasing.)

DantesInferno
25-08-2011, 23:16
@Bonzai & Stonerhino:

Fair points, both. But you raise a point I harp on about regularly, if you'll bear with me:

"At Russ' insistence".

We only have Russ'/Wolf's outlook on why Russ was an executioner. It strikes me as wholly a fabrication, an after-the-fact rationalisation. Russ and his Wolves might have been used to fight against another legion, but we don't know if that was because they were best suited or, more usually, because they were most expedient (e.g. nearby/available).

It's not really an answer to the issue, but AD-B posted these in-character explanations on Bolter&Chainsword (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=231249&st=75):


"Because we cannot be trusted. The Emperor needs a weapon that will never obey its own desires before the good of others. Most of all, he needs a weapon that will never bite the hand that feeds. We are not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needs. The Wolves obey, when we might not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we couldn't. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does."

-- Eighth Captain Kharn, when asked why the World Eaters aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.


"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.



@ Bonzai on Johnson/Curze:

A D-B's talked on Warseer about it, as I recall: his intent for the scene is deliberately to show an undulating fight of equals. At the point it's stopped, it seems Johnson's due to die, but that's the point, it's an ongoing fight that wobbles, but isn't likely/obviously going to tip one way or t'other. That it stops where it does comes from both side's Astartes observers 'flinching' and recognising that they don't want to loose a primarch on a coin-toss. (This is bad paraphrasing.)

I wouldn't say that both sides' observers "flinched" - in fact, I thought that it was a significant aspect of the story that only the Dark Angels were prepared to risk themselves to protect their Lord.

When the Primarchs start fighting, their respective honour guards start fighting too. But it's only the Dark Angels who are prepared to sacrifice themselves to intervene to save their Primarch. At the start of the fight, Curze is in desparate trouble. Yet Sheng and Sevatar are stalking Alajos and Corswain. When it becomes apparent that Curze has gained the upper hand, Alajos sacrifices himself by distracting both Sevatar and Sheng, while Corswain near-suicidally attacks Curze (leaving his sword in a primarch's spine). The Night Lords could just have easily have thrown themselves at the Lion to save their Primarch, but they chose not to. It's the difference between a Legion of knights and a Legion of murderers.

DuskRaider
25-08-2011, 23:22
It's not really an answer to the issue, but AD-B posted these in-character explanations on Bolter&Chainsword (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=231249&st=75):






When the Primarchs start fighting, their respective honour guards start fighting too. But it's only the Dark Angels who are prepared to sacrifice themselves to intervene to save their Primarch. At the start of the fight, Curze is in desparate trouble. Yet Sheng and Sevatar are stalking Alajos and Corswain. When it becomes apparent that Curze has gained the upper hand, Alajos sacrifices himself by distracting both Sevatar and Sheng, while Corswain near-suicidally attacks Curze (leaving his sword in a primarch's spine). The Night Lords could just have easily have thrown themselves at the Lion to save their Primarch, but they chose not to. It's the difference between a Legion of knights and a Legion of murderers.

You could just as easily say that the Night Lords Legionnaires were confident that Curze didn't need help (or were given strict instructions not to interfere with Primarch business.

DantesInferno
25-08-2011, 23:49
You could just as easily say that the Night Lords Legionnaires were confident that Curze didn't need help (or were given strict instructions not to interfere with Primarch business.

Either explanation is possible but I would say less likely.

After all, their Primarch had been impaled on the Lion's sword and then was being sliced apart by the Lion's swordplay. At that stage there was no real grounds for confidence that the Lion would win.

Instructions not to interfere would be possible - but I at least get the sense that the Dark Angels would have intervened to save their Lord even if they had been instructed otherwise.

Stonerhino
26-08-2011, 00:18
@Bonzai & Stonerhino:

Fair points, both. But you raise a point I harp on about regularly, if you'll bear with me:

"At Russ' insistence".

We only have Russ'/Wolf's outlook on why Russ was an executioner. It strikes me as wholly a fabrication, an after-the-fact rationalisation. Russ and his Wolves might have been used to fight against another legion, but we don't know if that was because they were best suited or, more usually, because they were most expedient (e.g. nearby/available).While we do see the "Executioner" idea from Russ and the Wolves in universe. We also have the authers giving their god like behind the scenes point of view. A Thousand Sons book preview. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viFLhyJXqNQ)

Personally I never really liked the idea but it fits. Why else would Fenris need a fortress like the Fang??? Other then to defend against other Space Marine Legions. And why was it designed by the Emperor and Russ that way so early on??? Unless the Wolves had an increased chance of being attacked by other Legions. And if the Fang was designed to with stand such assults, why would the Emperor feel that the likely hood of the Wolves being attacked warrented such a defence??? (It's not like the Emperor was just handing out super fortresses to everyone.) Unless there was a chance of another legion desiding to hit the Wolves before anyone knew what was going on.


So far in the story I haven't read much of any of the traitor legions being 'maybes', other than the Thousand Sons and the Death Guard. All the others seem like they would have turned regardless of any external threats or 'fear'. You do have Legions that push the limits. But none go traitor untill Horus' plans work out and Istvaan III. Even the Night Lords are threading a needle with their stunts untill they truely became "Traitors". Index Astartes shows this [After the Night Lords joined Horus]"The Night Lords launched a campain of genocide and purest evil that made their previous atrocities pale in comparison". So up untill they joined the traitors even the Night Lords showed some restraint.

And no author is joining to portray any legion cowering in fear of the Space Wolves. But there is evidence that shows that these traitor legions some what toed the line untill after Prospero. And the Wolves had been bleed and maybe that Horus has shown that he can keep Russ away. I mean if the traitors could pull off something like Istvaan IV. What good would it have been to have another very small legion there [Space Wolves]. But instead Chaos/Horus took years planning Prospero.

It's even possible that Horus was one of the Maybes.

DuskRaider
26-08-2011, 00:39
IMO, Horus didn't have much of a choice. He was more or less possessed by THE Chaos Gods. The only time he gains a moment of respite and control of his body / mind is when he tells the Emperor to kill him.

Xisor
26-08-2011, 00:51
While we do see the "Executioner" idea from Russ and the Wolves in universe. We also have the authers giving their god like behind the scenes point of view. A Thousand Sons book preview. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viFLhyJXqNQ)

Personally I never really liked the idea but it fits. Why else would Fenris need a fortress like the Fang???

To put a 'lid' on Fenris' potency. It's discussed in one of the other Wolf threads the idea that the 'spirit' of Fenris is intertwined with the Wolves, that unlike everyone else's psykery there is something inherently different about it, the Wolves are actually sorta-right when they talk of channelling the spirit of Fenris, it's not just spiritual mumbo-jumbo which happens to work. It's to protect the resource that is Fenris itself. :shifty:

(NB: I'm pulling that out of my... head. But it does appeal to me. Not quite as perfect a fit, I'll grant, not at all. But it works as, IMO, a better alternative than "because the Wolves were prepared at the get-go to be Legion-killers". The Wolves would have been rubbish Legion killers at Prospero without the Custodes and, especially, the Sisters of Silence. :eyebrows:)

Also other places do seem to have obtained super-fortresses. Some, however, plainly didn't need them/already had better.
- Deliverance orbits effectively a forgeworld/hiveworld.
- Nocturne's Sanctuary Cities
- Macragge's Fortress of Hera
- The Phalanx
- Tyrant Mountaintop Retreats on Barbarus
- The Dark Angels had their deathworld flattened to make space for...them.

(NB: I've also drawn parallel between Fenris and Caliban: both deathworlds, both seem to have a possessing/influencing spirit which acts over their Legion/Primarch. Not in precisely the same manner, but it does represent a bit of an odd pairing, even if nothing's really made of it in the lore [yet?].)

As an aside: One wonders why the Fang's utter awesomeness is rarely (ever?) mentioned in discussions of the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors. Could either of them feasibly take the Fang? Does that mean the IF/IW were the anti-Wolf brigade?

MontytheMighty
26-08-2011, 03:48
What I took away was that Johnson would have been dead if there hadn't been out side interference.
well, you'd be wrong because I had the same view as you and the authour flat-out contradicted me on another forum
according to him, your view is a minority opinion and he's met "hundreds of people" who would disagree with you (Dead.Blue.Clown is Aaron Dembski-Bowden, confirmed by the other forum's mods)
[SPOILER AHEAD]:

please read the whole thing...


1) the Lion's neck was "slack" while he was being choked
and
2) while Curze was struggling to dislodge Corwain, the Lion didn't do anything...why didn't the Lion immediately capitalize on the distraction?
The obvious answer to me is that the Lion was still recovering from being choked out...
I just don't think ADB expressed what he intended to express, I would be the last person to "read too much into it" because I'm way more of a Lion fan than a Curze fan

I don't even think it's worded poorly. Someone going limp for a second is hardly The End. We don't know what would've happened, because it was interrupted, but all the people saying it takes a lot to kill a primarch are on the right track.
Considering the fight carried on for several minutes afterwards, it's very obviously not the end, and it ended in a draw. But even before that, it's madness to take things beyond literally, to the point of scouring word by word for some nuance of truth. It is what it is, and add your own knowledge to it. What's to say the Lion wouldn't have had a surge of energy (like, well, in every single similar fight between main characters in any novel and movie) and hurled Curze off, or rammed a dagger into the guy's armour joints? Doesn't that seem much more obvious than "The word 'slack' means the Lion was a dead man"?
The fight wasn't finished. It was interrupted. That's the freaking point. It's about doubt. It began with the Lion winning, and was interrupted as Curze was winning. There's no more to it than that.
Seriously, these WHO BEATS WHO threads are the bane of creativity and sanity.
The answer is never "Whoever the author likes best" or "X, because he's better."
The answer is always "Whoever gets the upper hand because of circumstance."
And in this case, it was both of them, at different moments. The real fight between them is obviously yet to come - and all we know about that is that the Lion manages to slit Curze's throat.

of course I defer to ADB...it's his intellectual creation after all
I'm just saying that the description in the book indicates that the Lion was overwhelmed
ADB's true intent only became apparent after he posted in this thread
one crucial word makes a big difference here, "slack neck in a heretic's grip" is like saying "limp body under a heretic's weight", it's very hard to argue that the Lion wasn't overwhelmed in the absence of any explanation from ADB
furthermore, the Lion took a while to recover after Corswain jumped in

We already know the Lion slits Curze's throat later in the Heresy. And that also assumes that "all the Dark Angel players out there" need "placating". I've seen less than 10 people online say the Lion was 100% going down and Curze dominated him in that fight. I've seen and talked to hundreds that didn't take that view. It's dangerous to assume a forum opinion is anything more than the tiniest minority.
It's a victory in the sense it ends when Curze is on top, definitely. I'd never dispute that. But I still, after not only writing it, but re-reading it 800 times, and speaking to countless people about it - fail to see how it's supposedly definitive. To say the Lion was absolutely screwed requires doing more than reading the thing, it requires assuming that in this one fight, a primarch is suddenly not as capable of shrugging off injury as in every other fight we've seen them, and a few minutes of being smacked around were enough to end him completely, rather than leave him battered and dazed at his lowest ebb in the battle. Why anyone would assume that was The End, rather than the moment before he gets his second wind or taps into a reserve of strength (like in, well, every single protagonist fight in movies and books) is beyond me. I'm not sure why that's so hard to imagine, especially when coupled with what we know of primarchs. In fact, ignoring that and saying "Gosh, the Lion is screwed" sort of requires some immense leaps of logic not offered in the text.
It also requires a devotion to the word "slack" rather than taking the bigger picture and adding it to established primarch lore, and assuming things way beyond the text presented. He was messed up for a little bit, sure. That was the point. He got breathing room when one of his Legion was smart and brave enough to interfere. I'm sure three minutes after it, if the fight hadn't been interrupted, Curze would have needed breathing room - only his men wouldn't have chosen to aid him.
People are entitled to their opinions, without a doubt. But let's just say I'm not losing sleep over a tiny handful of people online insisting it reads as X, when everything else, and every other opinion, points to Y.

Aaron, could you please explain why the Lion does not do anything while Curze is trying to dislodge Corswain?
The explanation that popped up in my head was that the Lion was down and out, and needed time to recover.
I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, it's a legitimate question.

And it was answered, several times. There's a difference between being on the losing end of a fight (before a second wind? before one of a hundred things that always happens in these fights?), and "being down and out" for good. As I've said several times. As we know from every record of primarchs fighting. As I said here:
With all respect, I'm done with this now. It's been going in circles for ages, and only shows signs of continuing that way.
Even your question makes no sense. The answer is obvious. "Aaron, could you please explain why the Lion does not do anything while Curze is trying to dislodge Corswain?"
He does do something. He stands up immediately, and advances on Curze after retrieving his blade. It's there in the text, as plain as day. How is that "doing nothing"?
Curze gets stabbed. He rises and flails to get Corswain off. He does so. It doesn't take long. The Lion is up, recovers his sword, and advances immediately.
How is that someone completely down and out for good?
[SPOILER ENDS]
I could just as easily say that if Jonson hadn't fooled around in the beginning, he could've easily finished off Curze
anyway, ADB's the authour, so his word counts (even though I couldn't stand his condescension)

Freak Ona Leash
26-08-2011, 04:09
well, you'd be wrong because I had the same view as you and the authour flat-out contradicted me on another forum
according to him, your view is a minority opinion and he's met "hundreds of people" who would disagree with you (Dead.Blue.Clown is Aaron Dembski-Bowden, confirmed by the other forum's mods)
[SPOILER AHEAD]:

please read the whole thing...






[SPOILER ENDS]
I could just as easily say that if Jonson hadn't fooled around in the beginning, he could've easily finished off Curze
anyway, ADB's the authour, so his word counts (even though I couldn't stand his condescension)

I'm not one to fight someone else's battles but condescension? Seriously? You were badgering him about something he had responded to multiple times across multiple forums already. Moreover, he WROTE the story you were badgering him about. Be glad he took the time to answer in such a well-thought and considered manner at all. Most authors don't even interact with fans on forums precisely because of this.

Anyways, I do actually agree with ADB. The fight was very even. It went back and forth, as all even fights do.

Stonerhino
26-08-2011, 04:12
IF/IW were the anti-Wolf brigade??? Well, that depends on how far behind the fortresses of Terra the Fang is. It's not like any of the other places on your list have been called "One of the greatest citadels of the galaxy" Codex SW 2nd Ed or "Still reckoned the greatest outside of Terra" Codex SW 5th ED. Personally, I don't see the IW or IF sacking the Fang. It's with stood a three year siege during the Age of Apostasy and as stated before the Thousand Sons needed specially built siege equipment from the EoT to almost do it.

I find it a lot easier to swollow that the Space Wolves were the big E's anti-legion weapon then the Emperor built the Fang because of Fenris' "Spirit". Just as I find it more simple that the Emperor had something to do with why the wolves are tied so close to fenris, rather then buy into that Fenris' "Spirit" changed the SWs so they have to stay there. This is especially true when you have the author of the book setting there telling you that the "The SWs are there to kill other legions" and not mentioning Fenris' "Spirirt" at all.

And are you sure about the SW's needing the Sisters of Silence and Custodes to sack Prospero. Sure they where there but what suggest that the Wolves would have failed without them. While they did send the Deamon back to the warp [Prospero Burns] and limit the psychic powers in some areas [ATS]. The Thousand Sons did more damage to themselves over using their powers, inviting the flesh change. The Chaos Deamon in ATS basically blames Magnus for not cousing more damage to the SWs. Not the fact that the There were Pariah there.

I see the Emperor sending his Custodes and Sister of Silence to show that he is 100% behind Russ. That way there is no question as to his resolve. It's even possible that he did the samething when the other legions met their fates. So it might not have been just because the Thousand Sons where more psychic. It's something we don't know and probably never will.

MontytheMighty
26-08-2011, 04:27
I'm not one to fight someone else's battles
then don't


Be glad he took the time to answer in such a well-thought and considered manner
I don't put authours on a pedestal. I simply expressed my opinion on a forum, that's what forums are for right?
I wasn't "badgering" him...I had no idea how many times he had answered the question on other forums.

ryng_sting
26-08-2011, 09:16
I think the SWs would have taken higher casualties, but they'd still have flattened them in the end.

Bonzai
26-08-2011, 15:42
I think the SWs would have taken higher casualties, but they'd still have flattened them in the end.

Agreed. Without the Flesh Change and Magnus holding back, I would say it's anyones fight. But the 1k Sons were handicapped from the start. If things weren't stacked against them, then it would have been anyones fight. But with everything going on, the outcome was pretty much pre-determined.

ryng_sting
26-08-2011, 16:21
I was referring to the Space Wolves versus the Night Lords, however.

orz192
26-08-2011, 18:13
If Magnus had joined the fight earlier with his psychic might it have actually sped up the flesh change. If it happened earlier in the battle the fight might have been tipped to the space wolves without the aid of the sisters of silence or Custodes.

Xisor
26-08-2011, 18:16
IF/IW were the anti-Wolf brigade??? Well, that depends on how far behind the fortresses of Terra the Fang is. It's not like any of the other places on your list have been called "One of the greatest citadels of the galaxy" Codex SW 2nd Ed or "Still reckoned the greatest outside of Terra" Codex SW 5th ED. Personally, I don't see the IW or IF sacking the Fang. It's with stood a three year siege during the Age of Apostasy and as stated before the Thousand Sons needed specially built siege equipment from the EoT to almost do it.

Just because many of the arguments stem from me, doesn't mean they're all packaged together.

They're related, but not all necessary and most don't topple when a nearby one is tackled.

For example: The IF/IW have their 'hat' as being siege/fortress specialists. The bigging-up of the Fang is all very well, I don't dispute it, but I do contend that it is bizarrely absent in mentions of how awesome siegecrafters the IF/IW were, how the IW built some of the most impregnable bastions etc etc.

The point remains: IF/IW are anti-super-fortress folks (though I hate that as much as I dislike the Wolves being the Emperor's Executioners), so if the main thing protecting Wolves from 'retaliation' in their prosecutions is their megabig fortress then yes indeed, the IF/IW are the anti-Wolf brigade.

(It should also be noted that Magnus was prodding the dregs of his Legion against the Fang in Battle of the Fang, hardly applying his whole capacity to the determined obliteration of the Wolves: it seems plain he wanted to spay the Wolves, not to kill them. But then he's crazy, so the argument's moot.)




I find it a lot easier to swollow that the Space Wolves were the big E's anti-legion weapon then the Emperor built the Fang because of Fenris' "Spirit". Just as I find it more simple that the Emperor had something to do with why the wolves are tied so close to fenris, rather then buy into that Fenris' "Spirit" changed the SWs so they have to stay there. This is especially true when you have the author of the book setting there telling you that the "The SWs are there to kill other legions" and not mentioning Fenris' "Spirirt" at all.

Indeed, and it might be easier to suggest that the Chaos Gods aren't all powerful, they're just actual coincidence. Everything that ever was: pure coincidence.

Having said that, authors write one thing, once it's published their intent is massively weakened, their 'discussion' falls by the wayside. Like Graham's actual Emperor on actual Earth versus the actual Dragon. He might have said it personally to me, and I'm left with the fall-out of that, but if Graham disappeared and someone else wrote the book, or perhaps he decides to change his mind slightly (look at Tolkien's changes to The Hobbit after getting some progress with The Lord of the Rings) or greatly, then that's fair play as well.

Author statement doesn't entirely silence speculation from others (and nor should it, IMO). I'm confident some authors get a some of their ideas from having to confront the 'criticism' or the dissenting/idiotic/inspired contrary positions.


And are you sure about the SW's needing the Sisters of Silence and Custodes to sack Prospero.

To put it quietly, no but almost sure. I'd need to reread to stabilise/rid the thought, but I'm confident I'm not wholly off the mark on it.



I see the Emperor sending his Custodes and Sister of Silence to show that he is 100% behind Russ. That way there is no question as to his resolve. It's even possible that he did the samething when the other legions met their fates. So it might not have been just because the Thousand Sons where more psychic. It's something we don't know and probably never will.

Perhaps, perhaps not. We have indications of Valdor/Horus altering the order (or not reminding Russ) to apprehend Magnus. We know Horus had 100% of the Emperor's backing without Custodes and Sisters being with him. We know Lorgar had Custodes with him, he had the Emperor's sanction placed against him.

I don't think that answer's very clear, basically. If Russ and his Legion were established Legion killers then it doesn't matter that the Emperor was 100% behind him. Magnus knew, Russ knew, very few others seem to have.

Again, I'll endeavour to check.

Mánagarmr
26-08-2011, 18:24
I think the SWs would have taken higher casualties, but they'd still have flattened them in the end.

It's always interesting to see the varied opinions on here, as I consider that the opposite would be true.

As the Night Lords don't have devastating psychic gifts - or Guard and titan support - as the Thousand Sons had, I think the casualties would be less than those suffered on Prospero.

I just can't see the Night Lords psychological warfare yielding much in the way of results, against the Rout.

I mean, just look at the tribes of Fenris in the novel Prospero Burns:
A tribe is making war on another because they're convinced that a demon, or "maleficarum", has fallen from the heavens (it turns out to be a crashed space-ship, but obviously they don't know that). Now, how do they respond to what they believe is a demon amongst them? Murder-make. Hell, they attack Bjorn the Fel-Handed when he shows up to save the Imperial Citizen that was in the downed craft, without hesitation.

Wolves don't scare. Even before they're genetically altered.

BooTMGSG
26-08-2011, 19:01
My money would be on the Space wolves
1.) They are for killing marine.
2.) NLs are for scaring mortals into line (admitadly they can scare sectors into falling into line)
3.) Seems that the only thing SWs really fear are Pyskers and they've already been seen charging into a planet of them.
4.) They are both cunning enough to cancel each others wit.

I suspect that it might take a long time, but the SW would be doggedly singleminded about this.
The only way NLs would win, would be if the SW were recalled to face a bigger threat.

MontytheMighty
26-08-2011, 19:30
And are you sure about the SW's needing the Sisters of Silence and Custodes to sack Prospero.
Custodes maybe not
Sisters most definitely

the SW had a hard time against the TS despite having all odds stacked in their favour...Magnus even backstabbed his own legion to make things easier

could you imagine what it would've happened had Magnus been determined to defend Prospero?
I think the wolves would've met their match even with Custodes and Sisters backing them up

if the SW had received no support from the Sisters, and Magnus had been committed to defending his legion's planet, the wolves would've been slaughtered

Drakcore Bloodtear
26-08-2011, 21:01
It's always interesting to see the varied opinions on here, as I consider that the opposite would be true.

As the Night Lords don't have devastating psychic gifts - or Guard and titan support - as the Thousand Sons had, I think the casualties would be less than those suffered on Prospero.

I just can't see the Night Lords psychological warfare yielding much in the way of results, against the Rout.


This is something that annoys me (although it isn't directed personally at you) NL aren't all about wearing scary masks.
Thankfully @DantesInferno managed to find the quote I was talking about earlier

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

-- First Captain Sevatar.

So you see, although you'd expect that sort of nature if the NL were assaulting, they can run rings round the SW.
The NL aren't just about psychological warfare, they are about demoralizing the enemy, they fight unfair and would mock and taunt the SW.

Am I saying they would survive, no. What I am saying is that NL are much different to what most people perceive them.

No you've probably guessed I am a NL fanboy, and I also can't stand the over hyped awesomeness of the SW (honestly I don't like the SW).

But the NL are just as savage as the WE, just as unfair as the RG and just as smart as a SW.

Mánagarmr
26-08-2011, 21:37
This is something that annoys me (although it isn't directed personally at you) NL aren't all about wearing scary masks.

They live for psychological warfare though. If they're not scaring mortals, they're trying to hurt morale somehow.

Which is something I don't think they can do effectively against the Rout.


So you see, although you'd expect that sort of nature if the NL were assaulting, they can run rings round the SW.

People keep saying this, without explaining why they can "run circles" around the Wolves.

I mean, lets be honest here. The Night Lords are the traitor version of the Raven Guard. They are the masters of ambush tactics, and psychological warfare. They aren't somehow faster than other Astartes. Their vehicles aren't of Baal design. They aren't using war-gear that the Wolves aren't capable of fielding.

I'm not trying to be aggressive here. I just want to know what makes them so capable of "kiting" the Wolves around. It's as if people assume that the Rout will just chase them around trying to bite them - and that they don't have guns.


The NL aren't just about psychological warfare, they are about demoralizing the enemy, they fight unfair and would mock and taunt the SW.

Well, demoralization is psychological warfare. As for the "taunting", this is getting hyped up to a comedic point.

I guess I'm curious if people believe that yelling insults is going to give them some kind of significant advantage.


Am I saying they would survive, no. What I am saying is that NL are much different to what most people perceive them.

No you've probably guessed I am a NL fanboy, and I also can't stand the over hyped awesomeness of the SW (honestly I don't like the SW).

But the NL are just as savage as the WE, just as unfair as the RG and just as smart as a SW.

No enemy fights "fair"; especially not in Warhammer. So that's a bit moot.

The Wolves are cunning and equally, if not more, savage.

Dead.Blue.Clown
26-08-2011, 21:43
In a fair fight, it's debatable even the Wolves would have beaten the Thousand Sons. Not impossible, or even doubtful, but definitely debatable.

Now apply that to the Legion that never fights fair; the Legion that is wholly based on applying overwhelming force against its enemies, and disengaging when they don't have it. It's arguable the Wolves would ever even catch the Night Lords, unless they allowed it to happen, as we've seen evidenced several times in the Legion's past. Whether the reasons are explained clearly or not, they do avoid detection. They're not the Traitor Raven Guard. That oversimplifies and misses their point by some margin. Also, the Night Lords weren't the kind of Legion to wait around at one homeworld, like the Thousand Sons, either. They had no main base to attack.

So, in an imaginary fair fight, the Wolves would likely win, and with an overwhelming victory. The reality (of a hypothetical conflict in a fictional universe...) is that the Wolves would chase and chase and chase, finding themselves raided again and again, their supply lines cut off, their patrol ships going missing, until the Legion was bled dry by the death of a thousand cuts, or more likely, Russ went to do something else, like deal with a much more important problem.

Xisor
26-08-2011, 21:48
People keep saying this, without explaining why they can "run circles" around the Wolves.

I mean, lets be honest here. The Night Lords are the traitor version of the Raven Guard. They are the masters of ambush tactics, and psychological warfare. They aren't somehow faster than other Astartes. Their vehicles aren't of Baal design. They aren't using war-gear that the Wolves aren't capable of fielding.

The Wolves (and the Scars) are thoroughly held up by the Alpha Legion alone.

The Wolves are the ultimate sanction. But the Night Lords are entirely prepared to run away.

To put it lightly: Magnus doesn't react initially. He knows what comes next, and he does nothing. If Night Haunter was on the receiving end...he'd let Russ get him, probably. The Night Lords would likely devastate/destroy Fenris itself. (Good old Cyclonic Torpedoes?) But the sanction against Night Haunter'd probably still work. It'd just ... work.

But sanctioning Curze doesn't deal with the Night Lords. They'd flee from the Wolves. Sending the Wolves against the NL would solve almost nothing.

But sending the Night Lords against the Wolves? I can't quite see it working. What's precious to the Wolves? Obeying the Emperor and obeying Russ. What about when they'd done something that brought sanction down on them? Protecting something? Wreaking havoc? Trying to enact do their own thing?

It's difficult to conceive of properly, but the Night Lords MO would still work: whatever the Wolves are doing, they have objectives. They can be tormented by that. Denied battle, fled from. Led on a merry dance. If the Wolves decide not to attack? The Night Lords just start destroying everything the Wolves ever fought for. Every world conquered by the Wolves? Undone.

I can see opportunity there.

Similarly, flipping back, the Wolves against the Night Lords...it'd be effective, but I don't think the Wolves would win. They'd destroy Nostramo, if it hadn't been done already, they'd vanquish the Wolves at Tsagualsa, but would they be able to do anything more than the Dark Angels do in their Age of Darkness war in thingamy Sector?

The Night Lords just don't have the staying power/investment in values that allows the Wolves to be such a threat. The would ruin Prospero, but how could they ruin Nostramo? What do the Night Lords care about that the Wolves can threaten?

Dead.Blue.Clown
26-08-2011, 21:52
No enemy fights "fair"; especially not in Warhammer. So that's a bit moot.

The Wolves are cunning and equally, if not more, savage.

As a Space Wolf fan, you're falling victim to seeing a lot of one side in the argument, and very little of the other. Partly it's because you're misjudging the Night Lords, but it's still a flaw in the debate.

The Legions were, essentially, equally matched. All of them, despite their different specialties.

In this case, however, you're pitting a legion (the Space Wolves) whose main strength doesn't compensate for the Night Lords' main strength. In a stand-up fight, the Space Wolves would likely win, taking heavy casualties, but still winning. They have nothing that particularly gives them an edge, or even the equality, in actually hunting the Night Lords down and bringing them to heel, however.

The Dark Angels, with a Crusade record that far eclipsed the Wolves' one, and in a shorter time with their primarch, couldn't catch the Night Lords until the VIII Legion allowed it. And Night Lord lore is replete with other instances of similar behaviour.

Remember, the Space Wolves are no better than any other Legion. They have nothing that really makes them better than any other warriors, on every level, despite a cool new gimmick of them claiming they're the Marines that hunt Marines. The World Eaters and Night Lords may end up claiming the very same thing in their books, after all.

Mánagarmr
26-08-2011, 21:56
The things is though, as soon as Curze allows himself to be sanctioned - what keeps the Night Lords together to achieve this?

What is to keep them from backstabbing each other and those in power striking out on their own, just like they did after Curzes death?

This "bleed them with a thousand cuts" idea doesn't have as much umph, when they can't manage to put aside petty self-desire to fight as brothers.

Dead.Blue.Clown
26-08-2011, 21:59
The things is though, as soon as Curze allows himself to be sanctioned - what keeps the Night Lords together to achieve this?

What is to keep them from backstabbing each other and those in power striking out on their own, just like they did after Curzes death?

If Curze allows himself to be sanctioned. If. And at that point in the Heresy, he has no desire to be sanctioned. Quite the opposite.

But say he did, as it's an interesting angle and I dig the idea. There's nothing to keep them from doing those things, like breaking apart (which they demonstrably did later) and backstabbing each other (which, again, they do as a Traitor Legion). But that's not the Wolves beating, or even sanctioning, the Night Lords. It's Curze allowing himself to be sanctioned, and the Legion doing their own thing, and indeed ignoring the Wolves who ignore them, because they're unstable dudes.

Sephiroth
26-08-2011, 22:01
The things is though, as soon as Curze allows himself to be sanctioned - what keeps the Night Lords together to achieve this?

What is to keep them from backstabbing each other and those in power striking out on their own, just like they did after Curzes death?

This "bleed them with a thousand cuts" idea doesn't have as much umph, when they can't manage to put aside petty self-desire to fight as brothers.

Why did they follow Curze into damnation? Why didn't the Legion rip itself apart long before the Horus Heresy? Why do they all continue to wear the Midnight Clad?

The answer is brotherhood. This is the very thing that makes the Space Marines what they are.

Mánagarmr
26-08-2011, 22:20
If Curze allows himself to be sanctioned. If. And at that point in the Heresy, he has no desire to be sanctioned. Quite the opposite.

Why would he not, though?

He's obsessed with his self-fulfilling prophecy. If the Wolves were sent to execute him and his sons, why would he not accept his vindication, as he did with the Assassin?

What motivation did he have, that would see him wanting to live, whilst leading a Legion he viewed with disdain?


But say he did, as it's an interesting angle and I dig the idea. There's nothing to keep them from doing those things, like breaking apart (which they demonstrably did later) and backstabbing each other (which, again, they do as a Traitor Legion). But that's not the Wolves beating, or even sanctioning, the Night Lords. It's Curze allowing himself to be sanctioned, and the Legion doing their own thing, and indeed ignoring the Wolves who ignore them, because they're unstable dudes.

I never claimed their instability would be a victory for the Wolves; but it would make them much easier prey. They would essentially destroy themselves, was my point.


Why did they follow Curze into damnation? Why didn't the Legion rip itself apart long before the Horus Heresy? Why do they all continue to wear the Midnight Clad?

My personal belief? Curze controlled them through fear, as he had with everyone else, his entire life. The moment the "warden" was gone, they turned on their "brothers".

You're attempting to associate them with a brotherhood and honor that isn't there, aside from the rare likes of Talos and Cyrion.

The vast majority seem more than willing to kill each other over trivial matters, or to cannibalize wargear. Now admittedly, this is much later - when they're full blown renegades, but it speaks volumes of their character.

Talos fears being out of his armor in the presence of his "brothers".. that isn't the closest family.


The answer is brotherhood. This is the very thing that makes the Space Marines what they are.

Loyalist Astartes.

Chaos, even undivided, is a self-serving scheme where you sacrifice anything - including friends - to ascend.

There is no brotherhood between murderers and rapists.

Bonzai
26-08-2011, 22:26
I've had a long standing theory that the Primarchs came in pairs, and so did their legions. Whether this was by the Emperor's design, or a plan of the Chaos gods to styme their loyalist counter parts, who knows. But going by my theory, Curze's opposite is Khan. The match for the Night Lords are the White Scars. They are the only legion that can match them move for move, keep up with them, fluidly adapt to their tactics, and would hunt them down to the end.

However, that would pretty much pit the two legions strengths against each other, and it would be a toss up.

Some may ask what the space wolves opposite is, and the answer is that they don't have one... at least not any more. My theory on that, is that the two missing legions matched up to the 1k Sons and Space Wolves. In makes sense in a way. What would be the two main reasons for wiping out a legion? Psychic taint, and uncontrolled mutation. Two traits exhibited by the 1k Sons and Space Wolves. It could very well be that the Wolves were sent in to cull their mutated kin, and the toll they took was very high, explaining why they were such a small legion by the time of the Heresy.

Mánagarmr
26-08-2011, 22:28
Some may ask what the space wolves opposite is, and the answer is that they don't have one... at least not any more. My theory on that, is that the two missing legions matched up to the 1k Sons and Space Wolves. In makes sense in a way. What would be the two main reasons for wiping out a legion? Psychic taint, and uncontrolled mutation. Two traits exhibited by the 1k Sons and Space Wolves. It could very well be that the Wolves were sent in to cull their mutated kin, and the toll they took was very high, explaining why they were such a small legion by the time of the Heresy.

That's a curious idea. I like it.

Sephiroth
26-08-2011, 22:35
Loyalist Astartes.

Chaos, even undivided, is a self-serving scheme where you sacrifice anything - including friends - to ascend.

There is no brotherhood between murderers and rapists.

I seem to recall the Red Corsairs attacking a Space Wolf vessel and then one of the last remaining Wolf groups turning their guns on their erstwhile brothers in order to join the traitor...

Or are we going to only pick background we like? ;)

Mánagarmr
26-08-2011, 22:44
I seem to recall the Red Corsairs attacking a Space Wolf vessel and then one of the last remaining Wolf groups turning their guns on their erstwhile brothers in order to join the traitor...

Or are we going to only pick background we like? ;)

I notice you ignore that almost the entire crew sold their lives to defend their brothers - and a mere handful of survivors betrayed their oaths and attacked their former brethren.

Potential for betrayal is there amongst any chapter. Comparing renegades to loyalists is absurd though, regardless.

You're comparing small, freak instances, to "the day to day" betrayal a renegade faces from his "brothers".

Stonerhino
26-08-2011, 23:19
The point remains: IF/IW are anti-super-fortress folks (though I hate that as much as I dislike the Wolves being the Emperor's Executioners), so if the main thing protecting Wolves from 'retaliation' in their prosecutions is their megabig fortress then yes indeed, the IF/IW are the anti-Wolf brigade.

(It should also be noted that Magnus was prodding the dregs of his Legion against the Fang in Battle of the Fang, hardly applying his whole capacity to the determined obliteration of the Wolves: it seems plain he wanted to spay the Wolves, not to kill them. But then he's crazy, so the argument's moot.)My point was that just being siege specialist does not make them an anti-wolf brigade. What would be needed would be the ability to actually bring down the Fang and Wolves, solo. Think about this way. Does the fact that the IW/IF are siege speciallist make them the anti-imperial palace brigade??? If you believe so, then why did Horus need to send the rest of his forces if the IWs were the anti-imperial palace brigade???


In this case, however, you're pitting a legion (the Space Wolves) whose main strength doesn't compensate for the Night Lords' main strength. In a stand-up fight, the Space Wolves would likely win, taking heavy casualties, but still winning. They have nothing that particularly gives them an edge, or even the equality, in actually hunting the Night Lords down and bringing them to heel, however.While I do agree with this. As I said earlier the SWs would be given the resorces needed to acomplish their goal. Which why I would pick them to win.

The Night Lords will hit supply lines and have some success attacking unexpected areas. But without a support base and the ability to recuit. Every bolter round, death or drop of gas makes every cut they make, a cut against themselves as well.

In a post/during Heresy IoM they had many targets and the NLs were just one. But in a pre Heresy IoM a sanctioned still fighting NLs would propel them straight to the top of the "Most wanted list". And make their fending off the SWs that much harder. Eventually the NLs will need to make a stand or face their own slow demise.

Xisor
26-08-2011, 23:58
My point was that just being siege specialist does not make them an anti-wolf brigade. What would be needed would be the ability to actually bring down the Fang and Wolves, solo. Think about this way. Does the fact that the IW/IF are siege speciallist make them the anti-imperial palace brigade??? If you believe so, then why did Horus need to send the rest of his forces if the IWs were the anti-imperial palace brigade???

While I do agree with this. As I said earlier the SWs would be given the resorces needed to acomplish their goal. Which why I would pick them to win.

And there's the point. Why send only the Wolves against the Thousand Sons? Why not Sons of Horus as well? The obvious answer is 'limited resources'. There's also Russ insisting he does it. His engineering of the whole thing.

I've already noted I don't believe/give credence to the 'Legions have specific purposes' schtick because it's woefully missing the point. The Legions were created to take over the galaxy. This plain fact is what alarms Sigismund. It is a plain artefact for the Alpha Legion. Erebus, Typhon and Abaddon recognise a future where the Marines will be effectively useless: once their job is done.

A D-B already casts more than a hint of aspersion last page on the Wolves abducting their Executioner image. The Space Wolves get the 'up' on the Thousand Sons, had Magnus not been doing so, their mission would likely have failed. Fenris, in the end, was a 2-bit player against Prospero's 256 Colour. It just so happened that Prospero's Patron had a grander, more complex (and ridiculous) plan.

But nevermind that, that's largely off the point.

The allegation of the IW/IF has almost nothing to do with them being the pre-made anti-Wolf brigade (though it highlights that Legions must cooperate to defeat their errant executioner, even though I don't buy into it).

My case, which seems to have been resolutely missed by others (or badly put by myself) is this: with all the song and dance about the magnificence of the Fang, why the Dickens hasn't it been mentioned in the same sentences as the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors, who have 'uber might fortresses' as their hat? Unless it's not well-known, of course.

Perturabo seems to be around early-ish in the Crusade, at least pre-Angron. What if he (or Dorn [or both]) had a hand in building the Fang? For something so monumental, it's surprisingly without history. Or background. We have the spirit of Fenris, that's almost ever present. (Hence earlier speculation.) We have the oddity of the Wolves' own nature (their Wulfen). Then we have the Emperor building the Wolves an inexplicably big fortress.

They get the second best fortress in the galaxy because they're legion killers? :eyebrows:

(NB: It mightn't have been second-best when it was built, because the Palace hadn't been refortified by Dorn yet, had it?)

I just don't think it fits. And A D-B undermines the 'actual purpose is to kill legions' idea, so I'd say that's a point in favour. But then I also said all that gunk about authors having bonkers opinions, so take his mining with a pinch of, err, salt. (I guess he's salt mining then?)

If, as folks have said, the Wolves have the Fang because they're supposed to be able to kill Legions relatively easily then who is your first port of call? You can't scare them (Night Lords). You can't out-magic them on home ground (Thousand Sons). They're capable of 'going for the throat' of anyone else. And they've got a ruddy big impenetrable fortress. Shame you don't have anti-fortress specialists.

So if the Fang's the Wolves' main armour, then the IF/IW duo form a pretty remarkable double act (or pair of solos) to use in your arsenal if you ever need to take on the Wolves.

Dead.Blue.Clown
27-08-2011, 02:05
Why would he not, though?

He's obsessed with his self-fulfilling prophecy. If the Wolves were sent to execute him and his sons, why would he not accept his vindication, as he did with the Assassin?

What motivation did he have, that would see him wanting to live, whilst leading a Legion he viewed with disdain?

Because at the point in the Heresy/Crusade when the Emperor is in a position to dispatch the Wolves to do anything, they're sent after the Thousand Sons. At that point, Curze still very much wants to live. He's destroying/recently destroyed Nostramo to keep his Legion clean and nice, and he's on the edge of turning/just turned into his living embodiment of teaching a lesson to humanity, which will eventually require his death as vindication.

But that's all much, much later, after a thousand other variables. So at the point when the Space Wolves are doing what they claim their role is, Curze is in no mood to be chastised. He even recently escaped from Rogal Dorn to avoid that very event.

To make the self-fulfilling prophecy happen, he needs to spend several centuries doing all of the bad stuff first, that will mark him for vindication in death. At this point in the Heresy, he wants to live.

mob16151
27-08-2011, 02:14
Because at the point in the Heresy/Crusade when the Emperor is in a position to dispatch the Wolves to do anything, they're sent after the Thousand Sons. At that point, Curze still very much wants to live. He's destroying/recently destroyed Nostramo to keep his Legion clean and nice, and he's on the edge of turning/just turned into his living embodiment of teaching a lesson to humanity, which will eventually require his death as vindication.

But that's all much, much later, after a thousand other variables. So at the point when the Space Wolves are doing what they claim their role is, Curze is in no mood to be chastised. He even recently escaped from Rogal Dorn to avoid that very event.

To make the self-fulfilling prophecy happen, he needs to spend several centuries doing all of the bad stuff first, that will mark him for vindication in death. At this point in the Heresy, he wants to live.

Well now I have an idea how long the scouring lasts :p

Mánagarmr
27-08-2011, 02:22
Because at the point in the Heresy/Crusade when the Emperor is in a position to dispatch the Wolves to do anything, they're sent after the Thousand Sons. At that point, Curze still very much wants to live. He's destroying/recently destroyed Nostramo to keep his Legion clean and nice, and he's on the edge of turning/just turned into his living embodiment of teaching a lesson to humanity, which will eventually require his death as vindication.

But that's all much, much later, after a thousand other variables. So at the point when the Space Wolves are doing what they claim their role is, Curze is in no mood to be chastised. He even recently escaped from Rogal Dorn to avoid that very event.

To make the self-fulfilling prophecy happen, he needs to spend several centuries doing all of the bad stuff first, that will mark him for vindication in death. At this point in the Heresy, he wants to live.

Just to clear something up, Aaron. I've never gone for the Rout being "executioners".

I'm just basing my opinion off what I consider the strengths and weaknesses of both Legions.

Just because I'm a Space Wolf fan, doesn't mean that I think we win by default. I'd consider a battle between the Wolves and well-rounded Legions to be absolutely equally matched. Dark Angels, Emperors Children, etc.

I just feel the Wolves have the edge here.

DuskRaider
27-08-2011, 03:34
The Wolves are always said to have an edge with these discussions... even against the Legions that did the same thing only better before the Wolves being crammed into every "the best at" category and jammed down everyone's throats :rolleyes:

I digress, as I don't want this to become a "my dad can beat your dad up" thread, but the whole "The Wolves can beat X because they're better at it than Y" is getting old...

As has been said many times before and even in other threads, it's all down to circumstances. On whose terms is the battle on? I can tell you that, especially against Night Lords, it wouldn't be one epic battle as it were against the Thousand Sons (which was hardly epic in the first place). Wolves may have better supplies in one particular area, but we're talking about a scouring that may span systems, as the Night Lords are mainly a fleet based Legion, which seems to be the case even before Curze declared Exterminatus on Nostramo. Psychological warfare also doesn't just involve scaring your opponent, it also involves making him second guess not only your next move, but even his own.

Night Lords wouldn't run screaming at an entire Legion of Wolves, they'd pick them off one by one. They're a lot more like Alpha Legion, IMO, than World Eaters or Space Wolves. They'll disrupt or hack into communications, they'll cast misinformation, they'll feign and distract, they'll cause your force to cast themselves in a million directions looking for you, and that's when you strike... when they're weaker, when they're scattered, when they're paranoid or on edge. You're also talking about a Legion that is larger than Space Wolves. There would be a lot of void wars, there would be elements hiding in compliant worlds. If the Space Wolves could actually tackle such a task, it would be at extreme loss, and due to the span of the purge itself would probably require a brother Legion's assistant, which would pull away from not only the Crusade, but the impending Civil War.

MontytheMighty
27-08-2011, 03:53
Night Lords would fight "with no honor"
they have a homeworld but are mostly a fleet-based legion
they'd seek to evade and harass

this would put the Wolves at a distinct disadvantage
the Wolves' goal would be to engage an enemy that has no real desire to engage

if the two legions did go at it on a huge open battlefield, it would be hard to call...I wouldn't say the Wolves have a significant advantage just because they excel at CC (CC would be only one factor among many and I don't think the Wolves would have much of an edge there anyway)


"If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar.
interesting read but essentially a NL admiring his own legion's capabilities


Curze's opposite is Khan. The match for the Night Lords are the White Scars. They are the only legion that can match them move for move, keep up with them, fluidly adapt to their tactics, and would hunt them down to the end.
interesting idea but I don't think we know enough about the Khan and the White Scars to make claims of that nature
of course, I'd be interested in hearing your elaboration

OmegaPenguin
27-08-2011, 04:11
Hello Warseer, first post! ^^

First, I'd like to say after reading Lord of the Night and Soul Hunter, I have become a bit of a NL fan, and might start up an army of them once the new kits for CSM are released.

Having said that, I think the Space Wolves would win. I've read the entire thread, and I've found most of it a fun read, even the things that ain't really on topic. But alot of the posts seem to be one legion vs the other, but that wasn't the original question, atleast not how I read it.

"What if the Emperor sent the Space Wolves after the Night Lords instead of the Thousand Sons."

"Would they taste defeat, or would they break the Night Lords?"

"Would Curze be able to stand up to Russ in single combat?"

First of all, the Emperor didn't send only the Space Wolves against the Thousand Sons, but Custodes, Sister's of Silence and Imperial Navy. I'm assuming he gave the SW the tools to get the job he needed them to do done. Which was to bring Magnus back to Terra.

Going with that line of thought, it would stand to reason that he'd give the SW the tools to bring the Night Lords to heel or extinction, whatever he wanted the end result to be.

Yes the Night Lords are a fleet based chapter (after Nostramo's fall) so lots of Imperial Navy ships to help hunt them down doesn't seem far fetched.

Adeptus Custodes, maybe a scorched earth policy for their hideouts. Seeing as this was before the Heresy, the SW would have been able to draw upon a lot of resources.

I could go on and on, but in my opinion. I think the Space Wolves and their allies would win.

As for Curze vs Russ in single combat. Even match (in my mind) not sure who'd win. But I'd love to read about that battle!

Stonerhino
27-08-2011, 05:01
What do you mean lack of history???

In real life it's been around since 2nd ed, appears in 2 codice [SW and SoB] and we know more about it then any other fortress I can think of. Not only that but the Battle of the Fang could have been a three part collection just from the sieges we know about.

ryng_sting
27-08-2011, 11:06
It's always interesting to see the varied opinions on here, as I consider that the opposite would be true.

As the Night Lords don't have devastating psychic gifts - or Guard and titan support - as the Thousand Sons had, I think the casualties would be less than those suffered on Prospero.

True about the psyker powers. But I think they'd inflict heavier casualties on Russ and co. for the following reasons:

1. Kurze isn't Magnus. No holding back for him.
2. The Night Lords aren't the Thousand Sons. At least they clung to some form of moral code and the need to protect their knowledge, however misguided. The NL have no such restrictions. Someone who doesn't care is harder to take down.
3. There's a lot more of them - and they're all sadistic, nihilistic killers.
4. A Space Marine Legion wouldn't have trouble nabbing IG units and Titans, especially a Legion with the NL's reputation.

In my opinion, the DA - who are the Legion that'll be squaring off against the NL in earnest - would take far less casualties than Russ would in putting them down, but they'd take longer to do it.

Assuming, of course, either could get them on a level field - unlikely, given the NL's habits.

MontytheMighty
27-08-2011, 13:03
1. Kurze isn't Magnus. No holding back for him.

I think this is the key point
at the time in question, Curze still very much wanted to live...I doubt he would've behaved like Magnus who acted like a fifth column

Magnus betrayed his own legion
- killed one of his captains to hide the fact that an invasion was on the way
- prevented prior detection of the invasion force (hence no adequate planetary defenses)
- sent off a part of his fleet to weaken resistance
- sulked indoor while Russ rampaged on the battlefield

stormblade
27-08-2011, 17:08
4. A Space Marine Legion wouldn't have trouble nabbing IG units and Titans, especially a Legion with the NL's reputation.


Just a swift correction, there is no IG in 30k:cheese:

Bonzai
27-08-2011, 18:02
interesting idea but I don't think we know enough about the Khan and the White Scars to make claims of that nature
of course, I'd be interested in hearing your elaboration

It's true that we don't know much about Khan, but we know a bit about his legion.

The White Scars are pretty much Monguls in space. Monguls were characterised as being incredibly mobile, ferocious, and very efficient weapons and tactics. They instilled abject terror in the people they raided, not only for thier brutality and ruthlessness, but because they could be on you with no warning. Once they had you, they made some pretty brutal and bloody examples out of people to keep them in line and afraid. Their mounts were perfectly adapted to their environment, were very hardy, and allowed them to cover large distances quickly. They had no supply train, lived off the land, and raided for what they needed. Because of this, they conquered the largest territory in history. Thats their historical tactics, which could have come right out of the Night Lords playbook.

What we know about the White Scars in the fluff? Very mobile, rapid strike force. Had some important tactical victories in the HH. Instead of being portrayed as savage raiders, they are now more noble plainsmen/Hunters. Again this makes them the mirror opposite of the Night Lords. Many of their strategy and tactics are similar, but one legion is portrayed as noble, the other as criminals. The White Scars are Warriors/Hunters. The Night Lords are criminals/killers. Though often the distinction between the two is a matter of perspective and paper thin morality. Heck, even their index astartes article talks about Khan burning an entire village to the ground, beheading people, and literally bathing in their blood. The difference was that Khan did it as an act of righteous vengeance. Curze would have done it as a necassary example to quell further resistance. Neither were above making an over the top example of some one when it suited their purpose.

As I said, most loyal legions pair very well with a traitor legions, and the White Scars are the best match to the Night Lords.

Overlord Krycis
27-08-2011, 19:32
I'd put money on Russ and the Wolves.

Simply because the Space Wolves are heroes, and the Night lords are villains.

While in 40k there are an abundance of villains, the point of the heresy is that evil can be vanquished, at great cost....

In Storm of Iron:
Chaos actually wins
And while it's not a Heresy era book, it's a good example of Good Guys not always being the winners in BL stories, despite a fairly even fight.

Personally, the way the SW actually prosecute war, they'd destroy the NLs...after a fairly lengthy conflict which would see the Space Wolves become, effectively, a shattered Legion.

Hell, I'm not even sure if Russ would be alive at the end of that kind of war.

grumbaki
28-08-2011, 03:37
Space Wolf Fan: My dad can beat up your dad!
Night Lords Fan: Uh-uh! My dad can beat up your dad!
Grumbaki: Both your dads are dead.
Both Fans: :(

mob16151
28-08-2011, 03:46
Space Wolf Fan: My dad can beat up your dad!
Night Lords Fan: Uh-uh! My dad can beat up your dad!
Grumbaki: Both your dads are dead.
Both Fans: :(

First i've heard of Russ's death. Learn something new everyday. :p

MontytheMighty
28-08-2011, 05:10
have you guys ever wondered about the following

the Wolves were a legion in 30k
they're merely a chapter in 40k with no successor chapters (other than the failed Wolf Brothers)...what happened to the rest of them?

MagosHereticus
28-08-2011, 10:18
have you guys ever wondered about the following

the Wolves were a legion in 30k
they're merely a chapter in 40k with no successor chapters (other than the failed Wolf Brothers)...what happened to the rest of them?

isn't their "chapter" 12k or something? each company being chapter sized? or did i not understand their organisation properly, like the iron hands being quite large for a chapter

Lord-Caerolion
28-08-2011, 10:32
It's not 12k big, but probably more around the 3 or 4k mark.

Garanaul the Black
28-08-2011, 14:12
have you guys ever wondered about the following

the Wolves were a legion in 30k
they're merely a chapter in 40k with no successor chapters (other than the failed Wolf Brothers)...what happened to the rest of them?


Didn't a lot of them follow Russ into the Eye of Terror or am I just imagining that? :confused:


G

Lord-Caerolion
28-08-2011, 14:25
Russ' closest Captains followed him, leaving only Bjorn to take over the position of Great Wolf. The way it was described made it seem as if no others followed with them.

Dead.Blue.Clown
28-08-2011, 16:48
Just to clear something up, Aaron. I've never gone for the Rout being "executioners".

I'm just basing my opinion off what I consider the strengths and weaknesses of both Legions.

Just because I'm a Space Wolf fan, doesn't mean that I think we win by default. I'd consider a battle between the Wolves and well-rounded Legions to be absolutely equally matched. Dark Angels, Emperors Children, etc.

I just feel the Wolves have the edge here.

I hear you. Sorry if I was painting you with too broad a brush; I know posting in a hurry while you're trying to work is a useless excuse, but it's a lame truth in this instance. I didn't mean to imply you were gargling the whole barrel of Wolf kool-aid (etc, etc.)

...wait, that sounds gross.

MontytheMighty
28-08-2011, 17:29
isn't their "chapter" 12k or something
on another forum, someone mentioned that the SW have 12 grand companies and each grand company has around 120 members
if the above is true, that would put them around the 1.5k mark with no successors

Freak Ona Leash
28-08-2011, 17:35
The Wolves have a larger than normal chapter. However, I believe it is mentioned that they were never a terribly large Legion like the Word Bearers or Ultramarines. Due to the problems with their geneseed in fact, I believe they were one of the smaller Legions, though still probably bigger than the likes of the Emperor's Children or Thousand Sons. And when the Legions were broken into Chapters, half the Legion became Wolves and the other half became Wolf Brothers. The Wolf Brothers rapidly disintegrated, leaving the Wolves with a large chapter but no successors.

MontytheMighty
28-08-2011, 18:12
And when the Legions were broken into Chapters, half the Legion became Wolves and the other half became Wolf Brothers. The Wolf Brothers rapidly disintegrated, leaving the Wolves with a large chapter but no successors.
so half the chapter died out because of rapid mutation?

Stonerhino
28-08-2011, 19:39
on another forum, someone mentioned that the SW have 12 grand companies and each grand company has around 120 members
if the above is true, that would put them around the 1.5k mark with no successorsThe only number on the size of a SW Great Co is in the 5th ed codex. When it says that Ragnar Blackmane's "Boasts almost 200 battle-hardened warriors". But even there that number is a lot more vague then it first seems.

The SW codex refers to SWs that are Grey Hunter as "Battle-Hardened". So does that 200 include Blood Claws??? I go with No simply because that same codex paints Blood claws as being the "Youngest and most inexperienced". Hardly something you would use to describe a "Battle-Hardened Warrior".

Then there is also what that statement even means. As to what the number 200 means with reguards to the size of your average Great Co. It say that Ragnar's Co is second only to Logan's. Then lists the rough size of Ragnar's Co and Ragnar himself. But is the Codex saying that Ragnar's Co is the second largest behind Logan's Co or is it saying that on a pecking order Ragnar's Co is second on the list. I go with the second on the pecking order list because Logan's Co is not mentioned as being biggest or even larger then normal.

We also have a passage from Battle of the Fang which says there are 2,000+ warriors in attendance at the end. That's after losing an entire Great Co and causalties suffered with the rest of the fighting (including the Wolf Brothers). And the possibility that not every single SW is in attendance.

So the size of the SWs is still unknown as is the size of each Great Company.

Brothergrimm
28-08-2011, 23:27
They would have mauled each other and somebody else would have eating them both legions.

Mit Gas
29-08-2011, 00:32
fact is that Space Wolves are lame and Night Lords are cool. :evilgrin:

Jayden63
29-08-2011, 03:37
The wolves would win. It would just have taken longer. And IMO a protracted campaign actually helps the Wolves in the end. They would have time to replenish their numbers over the course of the campaign and would probably be at a pretty good standing strength by the end of it.

The Night Lords while being good at what they do, would lose all IOM support. This is the knife that kills them. They would have to raid and pillage to replenish lost supplies, but they wouldn't have any real way to increase their numbers. They would loose any recruiting worlds that they might have had. The wolves would systematically wipe them out and every loss would be felt twice over when fresh recruits showed up to replenish the wolves lines and the IOM sends more supplies/ships/etc. as requested by the Wolves. The army constantly on the run will eventually always loose out. They would have to make a stand, to push back, and to try and regain ground. If you don't they will eventually get pushed into a corner with no where else to run.

The Thousand Sons more or less chose to have a last stand. They made the Wolves come to them, and the wolves did. They came with the blessing of the Emperor and several others to aid them. I think the Wolves probably took their largest lost in history because the TS stood their ground and threw everything into one last huzzah! Instead of giving the Wolves time to replenish their forces over time. Its was a make or break situation. And we all know how that turned out.

This isn't just a Wolves thing. I think any Legion with the weight of the IOM backing them could cull any other legion who had been cut off. The real question is just how glorious the final days would be. But the Wolves get the credit for this because it pretty much was their job. Someone has to be it, this sort of work just fell to the Wolves.

MontytheMighty
29-08-2011, 03:54
The Thousand Sons more or less chose to have a last stand.
the TS didn't "choose" anything
Magnus chose to f* ck over his own legion, sending off a large portion of the defensive fleet, keeping his captains blind, killing a captain who found out about the coming invasion, not joining the fight until the very end...


This isn't just a Wolves thing. I think any Legion with the weight of the IOM backing them could cull any other legion who had been cut off.
well-said

Jayden63
29-08-2011, 04:11
the TS didn't "choose" anything
Magnus chose to f* ck over his own legion, sending off a large portion of the defensive fleet, keeping his captains blind, killing a captain who found out about the coming invasion, not joining the fight until the very end...


Ok, so my bad. Magnus choose to have a last stand sort of thing and more or less helped make sure his side lost. However, back in those days, the whim of the Primarch more or less dictated the whim of the legion, it didn't really matter if the individual soldier agreed with it or not.

MontytheMighty
29-08-2011, 07:38
the whim of the Primarch more or less dictated the whim of the legion, it didn't really matter if the individual soldier agreed with it or not.
in this case, Magnus didn't dictate, he kept his legion oblivious

the individual soldiers beneath him neither agreed nor disagreed with the course of action (or more accurately here, non-action)
his marines were totally in the dark until the Wolves were knocking down the door

ryng_sting
29-08-2011, 09:41
Just a swift correction, there is no IG in 30k:cheese:

Type IA for 'Imperial Army', however, and people might think you're referring to Index Astartes. That results in a pretty odd sentence.

SlightlyEstranged
29-08-2011, 17:39
My question is this. The Space Wolves can only recruit fro Fenris yes? What is to stop The Night Lords from doing exactly what Sevatar bosts of? Virus bomb Fenris, and scatter across the galaxy, and laugh as the wolves die a slow ignoble end.

Sevon
29-08-2011, 20:33
have you guys ever wondered about the following

the Wolves were a legion in 30k
they're merely a chapter in 40k with no successor chapters (other than the failed Wolf Brothers)...what happened to the rest of them?

The Wolf Brothers are the only documented successor chapter, and as there's been over 400 different chapters there's bound to be at least 1 other.

OmegaPenguin
29-08-2011, 20:38
Aurelius Rex over on Bolter and Chainsword wrote an article named "Of Space Wolves Successors and Lost Companies" which is the most complete research into this subject I've seen, drawing upon what GW have published on the subject.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=178

Hopefully this will be usefull too curious minds. :)

Am-heh
29-08-2011, 20:55
First of these questions: why Emperor send SW against 1k sons?

1/ in Graham Mc neil's books we learn Horus aware the Emperor of Magnus experiment. why?

because Magnus thought of the emperor as a father, and for attract him to the chaos Horus needs Magnus to think is beloved father betray him.

I don't think angron, kurze needs some tricks to come at Horus's side in Chaos. And against this 2 guyz the Emperor perhaps wouldn't send the SW but those they think more adapted.

And for the part "who will win between the SW and the NL?" i think it will as difficult to say as for wolves against hyenas. 2 hunters pack looking for the enemy throat. the first primarch who die my be the looser. But do they fight fairly? one on one ? or the NL will not try to submerge the Great Wolf? do the wolves have more honor than the dark batmen ?

Stonerhino
30-08-2011, 02:40
i think it will as difficult to say as for wolves against hyenas.Intresting idea to use real life creatures as stand ins.

If you consider the effectiveness of each creatures hunting abilities in a given area. The wolf is a much more successfull hunter.

African Painted Wolf = 80% success rate
Spotted Hyenas = 33.3% success rate.
Lions = 30% (Just for comparison)

Both creatures hunt in packs and wear down thier prey in long chases. It's just that the Painted Wolf is much better at it. In a 1v1 the Hyenas would most likely win. But the Wolves would only ever challenge them in packs and the painted wolves have been known to chase off packs a spotted hyenas.


My question is this. The Space Wolves can only recruit fro Fenris yes? What is to stop The Night Lords from doing exactly what Sevatar bosts of? Virus bomb Fenris, and scatter across the galaxy, and laugh as the wolves die a slow ignoble end. Well we know that there where Terran SWs. LongFang from Prospero Burns is one example. So the Emperor could create more wolves from probably any human stock. But in Battle of the Fang it is suggested that the SWs can only recruit from Fenris. So if it was the SW's that rebelled then taking out Fenris would be the way to go. But it lacks the nail in the coffin effect if the Wolves still have the big E backing them up.

MagosHereticus
30-08-2011, 06:30
how are the wolves suppose to bring them to battle? it's not like they were sitting ducks, caught unaware on their home planet like the thousand sons were

the alpha legion would never have been made to fight had they not intentionally wanted to decimate the ultramarines

Stonerhino
31-08-2011, 00:00
If the Thousand Sons took Magnus' lead and not fought. Then in all likelyhood we would have a Thousand Sons Chapter as opposed to Thousand Sons traiters in modern 40k. It was the fact that his marines were dieing that got Magnus to turn traiter and get involved. If the SWs were just let in and Russ took Magnus willing to the Emperor then the whole beginning of the HH changes.

So if anything it's the Thousand Sons fighting the Wolves that makes them turn traiter not just the Wolves being sicked on them. In which case not fighting would have been the best thing to do. Which also shows that Magnus had the right idea.

The NLs will need supplies and for a large fighting force that means a lot of supplies. Simply thinking that they can run forever is nieve. At some point they will either need to send the wolves packing or suffer a slow long drawn out death.

DuskRaider
31-08-2011, 00:56
If the Thousand Sons took Magnus' lead and not fought. Then in all likelyhood we would have a Thousand Sons Chapter as opposed to Thousand Sons traiters in modern 40k. It was the fact that his marines were dieing that got Magnus to turn traiter and get involved. If the SWs were just let in and Russ took Magnus willing to the Emperor then the whole beginning of the HH changes.

So if anything it's the Thousand Sons fighting the Wolves that makes them turn traiter not just the Wolves being sicked on them. In which case not fighting would have been the best thing to do. Which also shows that Magnus had the right idea.

The NLs will need supplies and for a large fighting force that means a lot of supplies. Simply thinking that they can run forever is nieve. At some point they will either need to send the wolves packing or suffer a slow long drawn out death.

The Thousand Sons didn't turn traitor at the Battle of Prospero... Russ was sent to escort Magnus back to Terra & in front of the Emperor, but Horus had caught wind of this and, knowing Magnus had knowledge of the coming heresy and had indeed even seen Horus become enticed by Erebus / Chaos Gods, he dispatched a communication to Russ commanding him to instead destroy the Thousand Sons. At this point, Russ had no clue that Horus was now a traitor and, being the Warmaster, his word was as though it were the Emperor's. Thus, Russ reluctantly attacked Prospero. One thing we must realize is that: A) Leman Russ did not want to kill his brother, and B) both the Space Wolves AND the Thousand Sons were victims in this.

sweave
31-08-2011, 02:14
yes but we see that continued to extend offers to parley with magnus but no answer was forthcoming until the wolves landed and came under fire from the spireguard and the ts

gwarsh41
31-08-2011, 20:52
Is it conceivable that the roles could have been reversed: that the Wolves would be the ones who'd need sanctioning (if their 'famous restraint' finally snapped; they bite their owner's family...). Again, I doubt the Sons would've been sent against them, so we can leave that aside (though it's not inconcievable that the Emperor might've finally brought the Sons into the fold re: the Webway and used them as a webway-force to help the Custodes/Sisters properly).


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Fang

This gives you a bit of insight on to what might have happened if the wolves were to be eliminated. To sum it up, the wolves live in The Fang, the second strongest fortress in the imperium. (Second to terra). The wolves have held up in the fortress and defeated overwhelming odds.

I think the best bet in this situation would be a virus bomb of fenris. Although I do no think that would cripple the wolves. I do wonder how the planet would react though. Being that there is little life on the planet, and it is either already on fire, or freezing cold.

Also

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plague_of_Unbelief

Gives more detail on the Traitor guard attacking the fang. Good short read.

Wyrmwood
31-08-2011, 20:56
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Fang

This gives you a bit of insight on to what might have happened if the wolves were to be eliminated. To sum it up, the wolves live in The Fang, the second strongest fortress in the imperium. (Second to terra). The wolves have held up in the fortress and defeated overwhelming odds.

I think the best bet in this situation would be a virus bomb of fenris. Although I do no think that would cripple the wolves. I do wonder how the planet would react though. Being that there is little life on the planet, and it is either already on fire, or freezing cold.
Cyclonic torpedos, simple. This could render The Fang as a reflection of Aldurukh. If that were the case, the fortress could be boarded and the Space Wolves would, essentially, have no future.

Jayden63
31-08-2011, 21:40
Cyclonic torpedos, simple. This could render The Fang as a reflection of Aldurukh. If that were the case, the fortress could be boarded and the Space Wolves would, essentially, have no future.


But how would you get your torpedoes there? Its not just the Fang that makes Fenris what it is. The outlying space is covered with SW ships. Who knows what other types of planetary orbital defenses are in place. You don't get the reputation of "second most fortified" just because you built your walls a little thicker. You have to give the reputation some credit and I hate to say it, plot armor. That is what allows for those type of designations to exist and hold up in the first place.


If its so easy to just sneak in a virus bomb or other exterminats weaponry it would have been done by now by somebody. Probably even against terra itself. Again, if it is so "simple" to get a torpedo through.

Lord-Caerolion
01-09-2011, 09:40
Well, the Thousand Sons managed to launch a full-fledged invasion on Fenris and the Fang, and launching a torpedo takes a lot less time than gaining orbital support, deploying your troops, and maintaining orbital control to make sure they don't just get nuked.

Is it hard to do? Yes. Is it impossible? Not if you actually use strategy, rather than "let's just rush Fenris, one of us has to get a torpedo off before we're destroyed".

Xisor
01-09-2011, 12:07
I rather expect that it's because the majority of people who've attacked the Fang don't want to destroy the super-duper fortress, but to annoy the Wolves (possibly to death). That's clear in Battle of the Fang, and this thread's got me excited for the idea of a Second Battle of the Fang a few years later!

That said, it'd be silly to expect the Wolves not to have a riot of other defences lined up around it. But then, once the Sons had mounted their siege in the first battle, attacking it a second time would be a bit easier. There's no Emperor, no Russ, no Legion to repair it, they only have the resources/Imperial Support of a Chapter, remember.

Seeing that explored would be really interesting, seeing how by 40k it's perhaps a bit more ramshackle, but still an ungodly powerful place.

(Also, again, the Fang's surely not 'a big fortress for the hell of it', I'd contend that it's a focussing-cork on the bottle of magical wine that is Fenris!)