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Draagyn
24-08-2011, 10:23
Hey ppl.

Have any of you some good tatics against a terrorgheist?
I'm having problems about this guy, as it have alot of movement, and the shrieking attack.
My opponent often use it as a suicicde unit, that targets my solo characters.
Eg with a normal roll he can make wounds on my hero/lord, with no armour save. It's only my ward save that save the character. If I choses to charge the Fcker, it can make a stand and shoot attack.
If he gets turn 1, it wouuld mean that he can get 2 shoots on my general, witch would mean RIP. :(

Artinam
24-08-2011, 10:37
Well you could put your hero's in units, as he cannot target out single characters in units (similar to normal shooting rules).

snottlebocket
24-08-2011, 11:21
Remember that if there's no vampires nearby it can't march so it's flying is reduced to 10 inches. Also having solo characters is really bad idea.

Draagyn
24-08-2011, 12:03
Remember that if there's no vampires nearby it can't march so it's flying is reduced to 10 inches. Also having solo characters is really bad idea.
The Terrorgheist starts flying 20inches, as it starts in own deployment zone.

The problem is that I play WoC. If I put a sorcerer in an unit, it has to challenge when I get in h2h. In that way I will often loose, as the sorcerer is'nt pumped for cc.
My sorceres is often on discs.

Kyte
24-08-2011, 12:23
anything with Great weapons, 3 ranks and a banner will make it pop.

Althwen
24-08-2011, 12:24
I haven't played against a Terrorgheist yet, and I'm worried myself as well. The thing can be a real threat to WoC.

I can see myself doing a couple of things to counter it...

1) Gateway, the answer to anything and everything.
2) Hellcannon. The Terrorgheist has a really big base, so it might be easier to hit.
3) How do you run your BSB? If you run him separately as well, why not use him to set up a trap for the beastie? Position your sorceror, BSB and maybe a unit of knights in a sort of triangle so that you can charge with at least 1 of those as soon as the thing drops next to another to shoot it. This way you'll probably get to chrge it's flanks or rear and it won't be able to stand and shoot.
4) have some Marauder horsemen (who are always handy to have around) babysit your Sorceror's flanks and rear, blocking line of sight. Don't use hounds, as they don't block line of sight completely.
5) Spawns? I read Avians blog and though I first discarded Spanws as useless in this new rulebook, their ability to charge in a 360 degrees arc is rather usefull and might just keep the beasty occupied long enough.

Again, I haven't played against it myself yet, but these are some options that I would consider.
Don't expect to kill it without taking somecasualties yourself. The beast is worth a good 225 pts. Chances are that it will take some points of yours with it, and that's okay.

Althwen
24-08-2011, 12:25
anything with Great weapons, 3 ranks and a banner will make it pop.

VC general would be a fool if he would let its Terrorgheist be charged by a unit like that, especially since it has fly and an imba shooting attack, don't expect it to go sit in front of a unit of 18 khorne warriors with halberds :S

drear
24-08-2011, 12:36
i think the answer is to screen the wizard.
make sure he has a charge blocker infront of him at all times, so the gheist has to charge a block rather than a single character.

or give the sorcerer a small unit to hide in, and have a champion in there to challange with. but that unit shouldnt be hitting combat.
its to protect the wizard and provide boddies for the gheist to eat and be killed by.

also think about how you can use the terrain and your units to make sure he cant charge

Odin
24-08-2011, 12:39
Heavens or Tzeentch magic could be pretty handy against it, or the glaive of putrefaction.

Gaargod
24-08-2011, 13:35
How many points is this?

Some of the harshest WoC armies are just using a Tzeentch BSB and Tzeentch Sorc Lord, both of them with lots of protection. Those guys *can* go in front line units (stick a champion in there too).

The T-gheist is a fair whack of points, so don't feel bad about slamming him with magic/hellcannon shots. If it's stupid enough to stand in front of a unit of marauders with GW/chaos warriors, charge it and beat the snot out of it - against VC units, you should be winning combat so hard, you really don't need the charge (just use free reforms after combat not to get flanked).

Fieos
24-08-2011, 13:52
I can make this quick and easy for you.

Terrorgheists do not get a stand and shoot reaction. It doesn't have a shooting attack. It is a special attack resolved in the shooting phase.

Past that, put your characters in units.

Althwen
24-08-2011, 14:05
I can make this quick and easy for you.

Terrorgheists do not get a stand and shoot reaction. It doesn't have a shooting attack. It is a special attack resolved in the shooting phase.

Past that, put your characters in units.

I don't have the actual rules with me, but having read them I didn't notice anything that would suggest the Terrorgheist's ranged attack not being a shooting attack...
Now, I'm not saying it is, as I've seen the same ruling with WoC's Bloodcurdling Roar in the WoC Faq, but what would be a clue to whether a ranged a attack can be used for the stand&shoot reaction?

I'm not a big fan of putting those characters in units just because they're being threatened... sounds like a 'just put your head in the sand' tactic to me when there's actually something that can be done about the problem. (against gunlines this might be a fair tactic, but just because someone fields a big nasty? nah!)

snottlebocket
24-08-2011, 14:10
I can make this quick and easy for you.

Terrorgheists do not get a stand and shoot reaction. It doesn't have a shooting attack. It is a special attack resolved in the shooting phase.

Past that, put your characters in units.

The banshee get's stand and shoot and it's pretty much a suped up version of that attack. It even pretty much refers to the banshee attack for details.


i think the answer is to screen the wizard.
make sure he has a charge blocker infront of him at all times, so the gheist has to charge a block rather than a single character.

or give the sorcerer a small unit to hide in, and have a champion in there to challange with. but that unit shouldnt be hitting combat.
its to protect the wizard and provide boddies for the gheist to eat and be killed by.

also think about how you can use the terrain and your units to make sure he cant charge

People aren't worried about it charging. People are worried about the 2d6+current wounds - ld worth of wounds, no armor save it can do at range.

Fieos
24-08-2011, 14:20
Death Shriek -
A Death Shriek is a special attack that can be used against a single unit in the Shooting phase, even if the Terrorgheist has marched, charged, or is engaged in close combat. This attack has a range of 8" and needs line of sight to its target. If the Terrorgheist is engaged in combat, its Death Shriek may target a unit in base contact.

To resolve a Death Shriek, roll 2D6 and add the number of Wounds the Terrorgheist has left. For example, if a Terrorgheist had taken two wounds earlier in the game, its Death Shriek would equal a total score of 2D6+4. For each point by which this score exceeds the target unit's Leadership, the target suffers 1 wound with no armour saves allowed. A Death Shriek is a magical attack and wounds suffered from it are distributed as if from shooting.

Hence a special attack that is resolved in the close combat phase but even if it has marched or is in close combat. Wounds are even distributed as if from shooting; because it is not a shooting attack but a special one. Hence no reason at all for it to be allowed to stand and shoot. It would need a rule specifically allowing a stand and shoot reaction.

As a disclaimer I'm also a VC player and I have and field the TG.

Artinam
24-08-2011, 14:28
You could buy a champion in the unit in which your Sorceror is hiding, let him challenge.

snottlebocket
24-08-2011, 14:34
Death Shriek -
A Death Shriek is a special attack that can be used against a single unit in the Shooting phase, even if the Terrorgheist has marched, charged, or is engaged in close combat. This attack has a range of 8" and needs line of sight to its target. If the Terrorgheist is engaged in combat, its Death Shriek may target a unit in base contact.

To resolve a Death Shriek, roll 2D6 and add the number of Wounds the Terrorgheist has left. For example, if a Terrorgheist had taken two wounds earlier in the game, its Death Shriek would equal a total score of 2D6+4. For each point by which this score exceeds the target unit's Leadership, the target suffers 1 wound with no armour saves allowed. A Death Shriek is a magical attack and wounds suffered from it are distributed as if from shooting.

Hence a special attack that is resolved in the close combat phase but even if it has marched or is in close combat. Wounds are even distributed as if from shooting; because it is not a shooting attack but a special one. Hence no reason at all for it to be allowed to stand and shoot. It would need a rule specifically allowing a stand and shoot reaction.

As a disclaimer I'm also a VC player and I have and field the TG.

It's practically the same as a banshee and the banshee can stand and shoot. I wouldn't be surprised if they faq'd it to stand and shoot just for consistencies sake.

Tregar
24-08-2011, 14:45
At present, it can't stand and shoot, and as mentioned already, a past FAQ for a "special attack" made in the shooting phase has said no stand and shoot. So, that is how it should be played for the moment.

That said, the OP seems to be a bit of a confused mess! Why is challenging an issue- are you talking about a Vampire Lord on a Terrorghiest, or just a lone Terrorgheist? Because these are very different kettles of fish! The big problem of the Terrorgheist is obviously its shooting attack. You can actually use your screening hounds to stop this for a turn or two: the Terrorgheist is on such a large base, 6" deep I believe, that if you place a unit of Hounds/Horsemen 13" away from the Terrorgheist, with your key troopers (Knights, wizards etc.) 20.5" away, then the Terrorgheist will not be able to land and scream at the key troopers, as it only has a range of 8" and must obey the 1" rule. While it stumbles around trying to find a path to your key unit, you should be blasting it with magic to weaken it. Also with the big base it can be hard for opponents to hide it, so you might just manage a decent charge on it.

If all else fails, drop a Hellcannon bomb on it. You can barely miss! Just don't roll a 1 to wound ;)

Oberon
24-08-2011, 14:51
The Terrorgheist starts flying 20inches, as it starts in own deployment zone.

The problem is that I play WoC. If I put a sorcerer in an unit, it has to challenge when I get in h2h. In that way I will often loose, as the sorcerer is'nt pumped for cc.
My sorceres is often on discs.

If he doesn't ride the terrorgheist, as is the case if marching is an issue, it's just a rare monster. It can't challenge or be challenged. Of course, that doesn't mean your sorc isn't doomed but it does mean that your other troops get to swing as well.

Don't walk alone, always in units. Hellcannon is good, as are spells. Lore of shadows would be good with pit of shades and withering, as is lore of death with it's signature spell and purple sun.

Von Wibble
24-08-2011, 14:56
The Terrorgheist starts flying 20inches, as it starts in own deployment zone.

The problem is that I play WoC. If I put a sorcerer in an unit, it has to challenge when I get in h2h. In that way I will often loose, as the sorcerer is'nt pumped for cc.
My sorceres is often on discs.

If in combat, challenge with your champion. Afaik, nothing says your characters have to challenge before anyone else does.

If on a disc, get yourself a 3+ ward and keep out of its way as best you can.

herohammer
24-08-2011, 15:19
The problem is that I play WoC.and that is the whole problem that you have with the gheist; it is the best counter to WOC and other high armor elite armies in the VC book if not the entire game.

The best way to deal with them is gateway and remember that if you can kill it that it is worth mucho dinero in pts.

Problem with gatewaying it is that unlike most large monsters or stanks you can't leave it relatively useless if you reduce it to low wounds without outright killing it as it is a flyer with a powerful ranged attack.

Welshdragon04
24-08-2011, 15:46
I've played it twice and killed it twice...easily. First game, greatswords and a warrior priest. Second game, 15 free company...yeah that's right 15 five point men, no command, no characters, and I didn't even get lucky. Combat resolution is your friend, ranks, banners, flanks, charges... anything can wound it on at least a 6+ and it doesn't have a great save.

Fieos
24-08-2011, 15:54
You can't challenge a TG that has no rider.

Symrivven
24-08-2011, 18:57
I've played it twice and killed it twice...easily. First game, greatswords and a warrior priest. Second game, 15 free company...yeah that's right 15 five point men, no command, no characters, and I didn't even get lucky. Combat resolution is your friend, ranks, banners, flanks, charges... anything can wound it on at least a 6+ and it doesn't have a great save.

Anecdotal evidence..your opponent wasn't the greatest tactician ever, now was he?

In my opinion the main threat is that it can fly and thus can't simply be charged (unless your opponent has a brain fart and parks it in front of your big blocks) while still being able to pick of small units and characters.

Often I see these mobile characters and small cavalry units on the flanks of armies and this is exactly where the terrorgheist flourishes as there wont be any large blocks to contest it. And it will likely be out of range of some part of the enemies ranged units. Putting some heavy shooting on your flanks or moving the weaker units closer or in between your blocks might protect them at the cost of mobility.

Draagyn
24-08-2011, 20:22
Yeah it's a big threat against solo characters and small units. The terrorgheist is highly mobile specially when opponent gets the first turn. It can move 20" and make the special shooting attack the same turn + stand and shoot.
Lets say I have a unit og 5 knights or a sorcerer on disc. With a moderate roll, he can slay one of the units, eg the sorcerer. When the knights charge the beast, it can make a stand and shoot and take them as well. I know wardsave can make a difference. Last game he rolled 10, which gave me 8 wounds or so. luckily my wardsave was great rolling 5 on most of the dices.

The Gheist is easy to kill, if it gets in range of a unit or 2, but most experienced VC players will never place it like that.

But yeah the tatics about the terrorgheist is either placing the characters in a unit, or place the characters behind units blocking Los.

Tregar
24-08-2011, 23:30
I urge you to consider playing the damn thing's rules correctly (NO stand and shoot) if you want a better chance against it.

Draagyn
25-08-2011, 06:22
I urge you to consider playing the damn thing's rules correctly (NO stand and shoot) if you want a better chance against it.
I'm afraid it's a discussable topic, which have not come to an end.
We have written to GW, and their answer were it can stand and shoot. There is no FAQ on the rules yet :(

EnternalVoid
25-08-2011, 07:38
The problem with writing and calling GW is that often you can get two different answers. Personally my group is playing that it cannot due to the way it is written. That said I know that GW is horrible at times about writing their own rules. As it stands right now from what is written, it can't Stand and Shoot.

And I know several people that have tried contacting GW and have gotten varying answers on this so till there is a proper FAQ our group is going with the RAW from the White Dwarf. But that is up to each group to decide among themselves.

oCoYoRoAoKo
25-08-2011, 09:29
The Terrorgheist starts flying 20inches, as it starts in own deployment zone.

The problem is that I play WoC. If I put a sorcerer in an unit, it has to challenge when I get in h2h. In that way I will often loose, as the sorcerer is'nt pumped for cc.
My sorceres is often on discs.

Unless there is a vampire lord mounted on it, a Terrorgheist isnt a character and so can't challenge.

On the stand and shoot issue, its pretty explicit on when it can and cant use its attack (emphasis mine):

Death Shriek -
A Death Shriek is a special attack that can be used against a single unit in the Shooting phase, even if the Terrorgheist has marched, charged, or is engaged in close combat.
...

Therefore, it can't stand and shoot because it isnt a shooting attack. It is a special attack that is done in the shooting phase.

Artinam
25-08-2011, 09:39
I agree, it doesn't say it can be used in the movement phase (when charging -> Charge Reaction Stand and Shoot), when stand and shoot is used.

I agree it probably should work like the Banshee scream.

snottlebocket
25-08-2011, 09:41
Meh, the tomb banshee can stand and shoot with pretty much exactly the same attack. I don't see any reason why not to apply the same thing to every other attack of the same type.

Rules as written doesn't work since GW rules are written badly. At least in this case we have a fairly conclusive precedent. Just to illustrate, the banshee howl that can stand and shoot is described as an 'attack' not a 'shooting attack'. So obviously being a 'shooting attack' is not prerequisite for being able to stand and shoot.

Althwen
25-08-2011, 10:17
Meh, the tomb banshee can stand and shoot with pretty much exactly the same attack. I don't see any reason why not to apply the same thing to every other attack of the same type.

Rules as written doesn't work since GW rules are written badly. At least in this case we have a fairly conclusive precedent. Just to illustrate, the banshee howl that can stand and shoot is described as an 'attack' not a 'shooting attack'. So obviously being a 'shooting attack' is not prerequisite for being able to stand and shoot.

Well, the Bloodcurdling Roar from the WoC book is classified as a special attack made in the shooting phase as well, and the FAQ ruled that it didn't allow for a stand & shoot reaction.
So there's also a precedent for that outcome...
So we can't really predict what GW's ruling will be.


I don't know which I find more logical, but then, by the time I'll be facing one myself, it will probably be FAQ'd already.

snottlebocket
25-08-2011, 10:42
Well, the Bloodcurdling Roar from the WoC book is classified as a special attack made in the shooting phase as well, and the FAQ ruled that it didn't allow for a stand & shoot reaction.
So there's also a precedent for that outcome...
So we can't really predict what GW's ruling will be.


I don't know which I find more logical, but then, by the time I'll be facing one myself, it will probably be FAQ'd already.

Personally I'm hoping for stand and shoot simply for consistencies sake. Allowing one banshee to stand and shoot while disallowing another banshee and a creature that pretty much does the same thing... it's just messy.

Vaiuri
25-08-2011, 11:23
1) Gateway, the answer to anything and everything.



This. My TG died turn 2 to this spell last night. I was a little upset tbh :cries:

Tregar
26-08-2011, 12:38
Old Banshee rule is 7th edition wording. VC players should be grateful that they can make their "special attack" for that Banshee at all.

If not, I look forward to declaring a "stand and shoot" reaction with my Chaos Warshrine (Hey, it works in the shooting phase, so I can stand and shoot with it, right?), and if we're ignoring RAW for no reason other than because we want to make a really powerful new unit EVEN MORE POWERFUL (Surely, the stupidest rules reasoning ever), then Chaos players should also ignore the RAW that forbids their characters with Bloodcurdling Roar from S&Sing. Oh, and also the Hellcannon. Let's let that stand and shoot, too.

Also gateway ftw :D

But honestly, I think if someone wants to use White Dwarf rules in a game, they should be willing to compromise.

malisteen
26-08-2011, 13:28
Another VC player here siding with the 'no stand and shoot' crowd. Special attacks are not automatically usable with stand and shoot - only ranged weapons, which the gheist scream is not. The banshee's special attack may specifically say it can stand and shoot, but despite any similarities between the attacks, the terrorgheists special attack does not state that ability. You can't just give the terrorgheist's attack extra properties from the banshees because they seem similar in some other fashion.

rodmillard
30-08-2011, 20:06
Death Shriek -
A Death Shriek is a special attack that can be used against a single unit in the Shooting phase, even if the Terrorgheist has marched, charged, or is engaged in close combat.
...

Therefore, it can't stand and shoot because it isnt a shooting attack. It is a special attack that is done in the shooting phase.

I agree, as written it can't be used to stand and shoot because stand and shoot reactions take place in the movement phase. The flip side of this is that (assuming you are pinned in combat after being charged) you can use the Death Shriek in the shooting phase of your own turn against the unit that charged you. You can also death shriek on your way into combat.

EDIT: I think it is more likely that the tomb banshee's ability in the VC army book will be errataed to match the new units, rather than that the Terrorgheist and/or hero banshee will gain the ability to stand and shoot. Not saying I agree with it, just that that's what I consider more likely...

Kay
31-08-2011, 06:27
can i stand and shoot with Thorek then?

Its pretty clear, its an special attack, therefore no can do.
I dont get how it gets to kill you sorc with 3W and a 3++...

Charge him with somethin fast, such as marauder horsemen and kill it by combat resolution+a couple of wounds...

popisdead
01-09-2011, 21:01
My sorceres is often on discs.

Doesn't that mean you fly too?

Take the Daemon Sword and ASF Helm one day and pop the vamp on your Tzeentch Lord on a disc. Just for fun.

decker_cky
02-09-2011, 00:04
Sorcerors on discs can still hide in units and be protected from terrorgheists.

Draagyn
02-09-2011, 05:50
Sorcerors on discs can still hide in units and be protected from terrorgheists.
What..?

The problem about placing sorceres in units on foot, is that they have to challenge, when facing the opponent. Even if i bring a hero, both must challenge ant the opponent choses wich to accept.

decker_cky
02-09-2011, 06:24
Only one challenge can be issued per combat. WoC doesn't change that. You can even challenge with a champion instead of the sorceror.

With a sorceror on disc, you can even fly out of the unit before they get charged to put him somewhere out of harms way again.

EnternalVoid
02-09-2011, 08:29
The problem about placing sorceres in units on foot, is that they have to challenge, when facing the opponent. Even if i bring a hero, both must challenge ant the opponent choses wich to accept.

You might want to check the rule book on challenges, page 102. It says when you issue a challenge nominate one model to be the one issuing the challenge. No where in the Chaos rules does it say you have to have both challenge, just that models with the Eye of the Gods ability must issue a challenge when able. To me this suggests that if you have one or models with the ability in the unit, you have to issue a challenge, at which point you have to select one of the models that are capable of challenges to be the one that issued it or accept a challenge.

So if there are two in the unit, like a Sorcerer and a Exalted champion, you can choice to have the Exalted Champion issue or accept challenges rather than the Sorcerer.

snottlebocket
02-09-2011, 09:36
You might want to check the rule book on challenges, page 102. It says when you issue a challenge nominate one model to be the one issuing the challenge. No where in the Chaos rules does it say you have to have both challenge, just that models with the Eye of the Gods ability must issue a challenge when able. To me this suggests that if you have one or models with the ability in the unit, you have to issue a challenge, at which point you have to select one of the models that are capable of challenges to be the one that issued it or accept a challenge.

So if there are two in the unit, like a Sorcerer and a Exalted champion, you can choice to have the Exalted Champion issue or accept challenges rather than the Sorcerer.

Hardly a sollution to the terrorgheist issue though. No player worth his salt is going to charge that thing into chaos units.

Especially not when it's so easy to just howl at them from the flanks and cause expensive models to collapse. It's not like chaos has a lot of ranged options to deal with them. And the ranged options they do have are probably prime targets for gheists.

EnternalVoid
03-09-2011, 05:32
Hardly a sollution to the terrorgheist issue though. No player worth his salt is going to charge that thing into chaos units.

Especially not when it's so easy to just howl at them from the flanks and cause expensive models to collapse. It's not like chaos has a lot of ranged options to deal with them. And the ranged options they do have are probably prime targets for gheists.

Never said it was, I was stating that his interpretation of challenges is wrong. His reasoning for not wanting the sorcerer in the unit was that someone would just run up and challenge it and kill it in combat, despite him possible having another hero in said unit. I was merely stating that if you have another hero he can't choice to pull the sorcerer into the challenge but can rather have the hero step up and face down what ever is trying to assassinate the sorcerer with challenges.

If anything you have furthered the point, putting the Sorcerer in a unit will protect it as they will not charge the Terrorgheist into it.

snottlebocket
03-09-2011, 06:25
Never said it was, I was stating that his interpretation of challenges is wrong. His reasoning for not wanting the sorcerer in the unit was that someone would just run up and challenge it and kill it in combat, despite him possible having another hero in said unit. I was merely stating that if you have another hero he can't choice to pull the sorcerer into the challenge but can rather have the hero step up and face down what ever is trying to assassinate the sorcerer with challenges.

If anything you have furthered the point, putting the Sorcerer in a unit will protect it as they will not charge the Terrorgheist into it.

Meh, if you want to assasinate the sorcerer there's plenty of ways to kill the champion before charging something into the unit. It's just not worth a terror gheist and it's really not worth a terror gheist with a vampire rider.

Lord Zarkov
03-09-2011, 14:00
I think people are confusing two issues here:

1) Chaos Sorcerers die from challenges (not necessarily vs terrorgheist), so go outside units where they're not going to be challenged.

2) Once outside units they become easy prey to the terrorgheist.

I don't see 1) as that much of a problem though, as others have said, if there's another character or a champion in the unit they can challenge instead.

snottlebocket
03-09-2011, 20:35
I think people are confusing two issues here:

1) Chaos Sorcerers die from challenges (not necessarily vs terrorgheist), so go outside units where they're not going to be challenged.

2) Once outside units they become easy prey to the terrorgheist.

I don't see 1) as that much of a problem though, as others have said, if there's another character or a champion in the unit they can challenge instead.

I never really had that much trouble with chaos sorcerers and challenges. Mine did a toughness test or wound no AS, d6 strength 4 hits no AS and an auto strength 5 hit before the challenge even began. Most challengers dropped dead before lifting an arm.

I wouldn't count on killing them in combat to begin with.