PDA

View Full Version : Resolution bonus for dead chargers?



Infiltraitor
26-08-2011, 15:34
Hey there all, sorry if this has already been covered:

A unit of HE spearmen and a unit of ghouls are engaged in melee. A great eagle charges the flank of the ghouls but gets his feathery bird-behind torn to ribbons. When combat resolution is resolved, can the elves still claim the +2 resolution for the flank charge?

Thanks in advance.

Bonus question for those with the time and inclination:
20 man block of elves runs into a horde unit of ghouls. In a later elf turn a great eagle charges in. Do the ghouls maximize at the beginning or end of the subsequent combat?

BEEGfrog
26-08-2011, 16:14
At the moment I can't see why the ghouls can't add the casualties from killing the budgie and the elves can't add the flank charge and any casualties caused by the budgie. If anyone knows where this is disallowed please provide a reference as I like to know these things.

It is primarily the responsibility of the charger, i.e. the budgie, to maximise figures in combat. Ghouls can do combat reform to increase figures in contact at end of any round of combat but note restriction on reforming while in contact on more than one facing.

Yrrdead
26-08-2011, 16:35
HE would receive a +1 Charge bonus. HE would [not] receive a +1 Flank Attack bonus.(pg52,53)

Bonus; Your question doesn't make much sense, but I'm going to assume that BEEGfrog answered what you meant.

BEEGfrog
26-08-2011, 17:24
HE would receive a +1 Charge bonus. HE would [not] receive a +1 Flank Attack bonus.(pg52,53)

Bonus; Your question doesn't make much sense, but I'm going to assume that BEEGfrog answered what you meant.

I looked at pg52-3 and got confused, kept on reading to pg59 and found another great example of GW rule writing clarity [/sarcasm]

This specifies what you can and cannot combine but misses the situation where one unit in a multiple combat gets offed.

Ignoring the 1-on-1 rule of a unit that destroys its enemy wins combat regardless of CR score, it says that all rules apply but with the restrictions on pg59. Pg52-3 says +1 if charged and +1 if IS fighting on flank and +1 for each wound scored.

Charge applies because wording says if it charged this turn, which it did before it was destroyed. Same goes for any wounds caused by budgie.

Ambiguity on flank remains because of "is" on pg53 but "attacked" on pg59 without any clarification of effect of destruction on flanking unit. Pg53 applying to 1 on 1 combats and pg59 applying to multiple combats.

I would come down on the side of flanking not counting for destroyed units.

This is one of the situations where I would be ok with a clarification by FAQ but would still prefer an errata to clear up the wording.

Interesting point I had previously missed: if you flank charge two different units you get two +1 flanking bonusses as you get +1 per flanked unit. Theoretically if you managed to rear charge two units with a single unit you would get +4 CR! Charging downhill would make it +6!

Scalebug
26-08-2011, 17:35
Both charge and flank/rear bonuses are worded similarily on p.52-53. In fact, all bonuses are.

"If your unit charged this turn, it receives +1 combat result".

"Therefore, if your unit is fighting the enemy in its flank, it receives +1 combat result."


If there is no unit that does that (because it is, well, dead...), the bonus is not counted.

BEEGfrog
26-08-2011, 18:26
Both charge and flank/rear bonuses are worded similarily on p.52-53. In fact, all bonuses are.

"If your unit charged this turn, it receives +1 combat result".

"Therefore, if your unit is fighting the enemy in its flank, it receives +1 combat result."


If there is no unit that does that (because it is, well, dead...), the bonus is not counted.

Which bonus(ses) isn't counted?

Charging seems to be clearly allowed as it refers to the past when the unit was alive.

Flank, slightly ambiguously, seems to be disallowed by the use of the word "is" implying at the point the calculation is being done, i.e. after the unit was destroyed and so longer actually fighting on the flank. The ambiguity arises because on pg 59 this rule is discussed in the past tense allowing an argument that flanking during the combat round and not just at time of calculation would be enough for multiple combats.

This ambiguity is weak but it is slightly strengthened by the pg 52-3 rules being written to apply to one on one combats where it is clearly stated that destroying an enemy wins combat regardless of CR score and unit destruction is not addressed.

This is a badly written rule that in the short term would benefit from a FAQ. In the long term it would be far easier if the rule was written where the standard rule was written for multiple units where one on one was a special case.

Scalebug
26-08-2011, 18:59
It's the "it receives +1 combat result" there you are ignoring.

If "it" isn't there anymore, whatever bonus "it" gets can hardly affect the game.

BEEGfrog
26-08-2011, 22:06
Do the wounds inflicted by the destroying unit on the destroyed unit count toward the resolution score in the ongoing battle with the remaining unit? If a unit is fighting two enemy units in a continuing fight when all CR bonusses for each side are the same except for casualties scored and the two sides also have the same number of ranks at the end of combat. It scores 30 wounds against enemy A and 10 against enemy B; both enemy units do 20 casualties each back. What is combat result if unit A destroyed, unit B destroyed or neither destroyed?

Also, since a page reference was given regarding changes to combat res calculations it might be worth actually reading pg59 to see how it affects your argument. As a clue look for the word "side" or in reference to flank/rear attacks "per unit attacked".

NTJ2010
27-08-2011, 16:17
It specifically says in Multiple combat results at the top

"All casualties inflicted by both SIDES count towards the result as normal." (I added the capitals)

It also says that your side receives +1 if your side HAS unit that charged this turn, not had a unit charge this turn (at the time of calculation you have to have a unit in combat that charged)

Think of it as all bonusses such as flank, rear, charge, ranks, banners, etc. are generated by the units themself (meaning they "hold" the points) while casualties are generated per side as they occur.