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Imperial Stormtrooper
27-08-2011, 06:14
I recently came back into the hobby, and have been informed that there is now an 8th edition rulebook for Warhammer fantasy now. Now I actually haven't played a game of 8th edition yet, however I have been reading/hearing about how people are building their armies and using them differently now, and personally I want to address the topic of Hordes.

Basically, is just a huge Horde of say, about 40 models in one unit for Core to just barely hit the 25% cap, and then maxing out on special units the best and most competitive option to build an army? I'm not talking about just doing what I want to do personally, or how I would build an army, but the most competitive option for army building. Is It just better in general to Horde units now? Is the loss of individual units and the maneuverability worth the bonus of ranks in a unit that is horded? In 8th edition is it better now to use say, 2 units of 20 Dark elf warriors or 1 unit of 40 dark elf warriors? (Note doesn't matter which troop type, just an example).

Let's just go ahead an discuss in the most general terms, unless there is a very specific case wherein it is significantly better to horde or not horde.

Nedar
27-08-2011, 06:51
Well, horde's can be very good...depending on the situation. So, no: Horde's are not the default "best, most badass choice" (kinda like Hydra's ^_^ ).

For instance, Chaos Warriors are really good in horde...against other horde's of almost any infantry even if the 2nd and 3rd rank are losing 1/2+ of their attacks (frenzy or not). They just don't care about incoming attacks from a lot of things that can go faster than them with a 3+ armor.

A horde of, say, skeletons with HW/S is kinda pointless, but with spears they can be rather effective depending on your target. Say a steam tank...since everything wounds on 6's now, a horde of skeletons isn't altogether unreasonable against a steam tank since it cares not about your frontage with grind.

Again, it's a new option that helps tactical flexibility...there is just an obsession with rolling tons of dice. Like Khorne Marauders with GWs...4attacks per file in contact at str5 is quite good.

But; yet again, you must realize that people over-hype their horde's by thinking they get their 40 s5 attacks against EVERYTHING...this is not true. Steadfast (more importantly denying opponent steadfast) anvil block's are still quite useful since the so-called-horde only get's 28 of their 40 attacks against it. This is still quite good, but not as ridiculous as it might seem at first.

Yrrdead
27-08-2011, 07:31
This might be better served in the Tactics section.

That said....

Horde is an offensive formation. Let me stress the word formation. With the advent of swift reform and more importantly casualty removal from the rear, it is important to keep in mind this flexibility. Just realize that there is often a time in a game of warhammer where almost any unit could benefit from using Horde formation.

Don't get stuck in the mindset that the formation you deploy in is set in stone. Though I would venture to guess that a very large percentage of players rarely change formation in game. (At least this is my experience).

That is about as general as I can get.

Edit - Just realized this is in the Tactics forum, oops.

sulla
27-08-2011, 21:50
Horde formation mostly benefits high strength troops; s5 or better. Lower than that and you are almost always better off going for steadfast.

Unless your great weapon troops are very cheap, you usually get at least 2 combat phases of benefit out of them before having to reform into a more conventional (deeper) warhammer formation.

Loopstah
27-08-2011, 22:03
In my opinion.

Positives to a Horde:

+ You get to make more attacks than usual.


Negatives to a Horde:

- You are likely to have less ranks therefore not be steadfast or not be able to break steadfast.


Things that apply to large units in general (which a horde is):

- You can lack manouverability and have reduced options.

- You are more likely to lose more models to magic at once than when using smaller units.

+ Less chance of panic as 25% is usually about 10-15 models rather than 5-7.

- It's worse if you break and are chased down than with two smaller units.

jet_palero
28-08-2011, 01:35
I've had good luck with my Dawi warriors in a horde, and goblins and orcs of course love hording up.

Von Wibble
28-08-2011, 16:55
In my opinion.

Positives to a Horde:

+ You get to make more attacks than usual.


Negatives to a Horde:

- You are likely to have less ranks therefore not be steadfast or not be able to break steadfast.


Things that apply to large units in general (which a horde is):

- You can lack manouverability and have reduced options.

- You are more likely to lose more models to magic at once than when using smaller units.

+ Less chance of panic as 25% is usually about 10-15 models rather than 5-7.

- It's worse if you break and are chased down than with two smaller units.

Also an advantage of large units and hordes - more models are affected by augment spells.

Pyriel
28-08-2011, 17:45
i think the OP refers to "what a horde is". i am not sure he read the rules regarding that.

a "horde formation" is a unit at least 10-wide. such a unit gets to use an extra rank to make attacks in 8th.

when we say "a horde" in competitive play, we mean " a unit 10-wide and 4-5 ranks deep, that due to such mass number has BOTH many ranks to fight due to the horde rule AND keeps/breaks steadfast due to deep ranks".

this is generaly very competitive with most Core troops in the game. it is also what "almost killed cavalry", since hordes cant realy be broken on the charge hence they keep steadfast and usualy succeed their morale checks.
hence, it is often done that a list will now contain 2-3 Hordes of Core(yup... ABOVE the 25% min usualy)as main killers and use the Special infantry choices to support them.(special infantry=because heavy cavalry can only be used for flanking utilities in 8th's environment and most ppl dont use it at all anymore. see the "is cavalry dead?" thread, though saying cavalry dead is too much)

this is also why high-level mages are required nowadays, because their mass buffs/debuffs/AoE helps tremendously in the horde-oriented environment.

Imperial Stormtrooper
28-08-2011, 18:08
I understand what a Horde is, as pertaining to the rules(10 wide, at least 4 ranks deeps etc, etc), But I wanted to hear whether or not using the horde rule was more or less beneficial, and also whether it is the most competitive option.

Re-Reading my post it kinda seemed like I didn't understand the actual rule of Hordes, but what I had meant to ask was:

1. Is it better to min-max your core/special by having one "horded" unit of core that just hits 25%, then max out on specials/rares?

2. Is it more tacticly sound to run hordes(for example 1 unit of 40) as opposed to individual units(for example 2 units of 20)?

3. Would an army that is "horded" or has a few "horded" units be able to roll over armies that do not have "horded" units?

Those are the topics(and those relating to them) I wanted to open for discussion

GodlessM
28-08-2011, 18:11
None of those questions have a definitive answer because all depend on the army, the build, the tactic, and the unit.

Pyriel
28-08-2011, 18:22
i agree with GodlessM perfectly. for example, a unit of missile troops is rarely worth it horded. "melee units with 1-attack per model" are usualy great to horde, esp. if they have good strength.

also on armybook regarding percentages:
in HE, if you built a list with anything more than 30% Core, i'd call you a "Core hero" as HE core choices suck(even 30% might be a little too much lol). the only exception is book of hoeth mindrazor.


in WoC, i'd say you almost need 2-3 units of 40 marauders.

Imperial Stormtrooper
28-08-2011, 18:23
GodlessM, That is indeed very true. -.-'

I'm just trying to soak up as much information about Hordes as possible, because I know very little about them or how they would be best used, or not used. It's true that the answers depend on the army, the build, the tactic, and the unit, but I'm trying to figure out which armies, which builds, which tactics, and which units would best benefit from hording or not, and whether or not If I do not include hordes while my opponent does, If I would be at a significant disadvantage, or if I included Hordes and my opponent does not, if I would once again be the one at disadvantage.

Hordes seem very powerful for all the extra attacks, bodies, and ability to stay locked in combat, but at the same time it's alot like putting your eggs in one basket, having a unit that is huge and difficult to move around and position, and having a huge block of units that could themselves be tar-pitted, and even lose to a fewer number of models who fight much better, that their total costs lest than the total of the horded unit. Horded units seem so great but they could be broken, and then chased down, and that is a huge amount of points you could lose there, but at the same time, if I didn't take hordes, I would be afraid of having no way to stop the giant horded unit rolling through units one by one.

Basically, if we could just keep discussing Hordes and the use of hordes in general terms, that would greatly help...

Yrrdead
28-08-2011, 20:38
Okay here are some other "basics" relating to hordes. Obviously this isn't going to be true for everyone and some units make great hordes(or are done for other reasons)without meeting these characteristics.

General makeup for a "good" horde unit;

1. Single Attack
2. >= Str 5 attacks
3. Ranged Defense

1. Generally you are going to gain more from hording single attack models vs multiple attack models, due to only getting a single supporting attack. (Common exceptions include Chaos Warriors, Ghouls, Saurus.)
2. Horde is an offensive formation and in most cases the units strength will reflect that.(Common exceptions include, Almost all Skaven Hordes, Saurus, Ghouls, Witch Elves, Corsairs, Spearmen(HE))
3. Not all that important but realize that hordes generate a healthy amount of attention from an opponent. And your defensive abilities let you take less models in your horde. Which in turn is more points elsewhere.

Oh just to touch on something you mentioned about combining units. I was running multiple 20 man units of core. I've long since combined those into much larger units. Though this could be the result of my local meta, but my experience has been that smaller units aren't very useful except to give up easy VP's.

And in closing this article , though it is by GW, is a decent read.

GW Horde Article (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440002a&categoryId=500004&section=&aId=10100033a)

Pyriel
28-08-2011, 21:14
a good example of a HE horde unit is White Lions:
30 white lions can dish out 31 attacks at str 6, possibly with rerolls, and have a 3+ save vs shooting attacks.

Catflap
28-08-2011, 21:55
This got me thinking...why are most people taking gors/ungors in big blocks with additional handweapons for an extra attack?
Wouldn't it be better to give them shields in horde formation then?

tmarichards
28-08-2011, 22:44
The extra attacks are almost always better then the small armour save boost, especially when Beasts get the right buffs off. Beastmen armies tend to rely on outkilling other armies, rather than outsurviving them.

TheMadMarquis
29-08-2011, 01:19
The biggest advantage of extra attacks is that you lose attacks, proportionately, more slowly as you lose models. When you have a horde of Gor and you lose a rank, you go from 30 attacks to 20 attacks with shields, or 40 attacks to 30 attacks with AHW. Playing with Brets I find that enemies with multiple attacks are almost impossible to grind down with knights because they keep hitting back with almost full force for so much longer.

The only exception with Beasts would be against supersolid units like WoC, where they'll just shrug off your attacks and the only question is how quickly they can kill you. The parry save might be some help there. But for an all-comers list AHW is always the better option, even in hordes.

russellmoo
29-08-2011, 15:30
The lack of taking shields also deals with the now overwhelming amount of great weapon units running around-

Where players before avoided great weapons- due to ASL, and now adding in step-up great weapons became a great choice-

This means that there is little point to increasing a units save from 6 to 5, and only moderately useful taking a unit from 5 to 4- this means that a lot of players have dropped shields entirely- (it is now a great way to spot a tarpit unit- i.e. if the unit has shields, it is most likely there to tarpit)

Now back to hordes-

Horde formation is the way to go except:
1- You will lose combat anyway, and don't have more ranks
2- You are attempting to get a flank charge in on an enemy unit
3- You have less than 20 models in a unit
4- Your unit is so easily killed, that any additional frontage just results in more kills. (E.g. skaven slaves, zombies, skinks)

Core percentage is dependent on the armybook some armies have excellent core- and given the benefits of having a lot of models on the table few players only take the minimum 25%.

Armies that tend to do well with minimum core might be High elves, Dark Elves, and Beastmen. This is due to the comparative quality of their core choices versus what their specials can do- Really the High elves are probably the army that most of all would benefit from 25% core- just because High Elf mages are so good (and high in points) and their special choices are so good that most players want to fill their armies with them (I'm pretty sure if given the option some HE players would take only special choices)

These armies also tend not to be horde reliant (multiple medium units tends to be more common) compared with O&G, and Skaven where the general idea is to cover half the table with models (these armies will tend to have some weaker units like goblins or slaves that are not in horde formation, while everything else is)

Lastly, if you really want to go with hordes and play an army designed around this rule- play O&G- they have very little reason to take a unit smaller than 40, and some good reasons to take units up to 100 models in size.

Lord Solar Plexus
30-08-2011, 06:21
Hordes are not necessary per se. Having said that, amongst the units that lend themselves to this formation are ones which are stubborn or unbreakable and so do not care about less ranks than a bus.



Hordes seem very powerful for all the extra attacks, bodies, and ability to stay locked in combat, but at the same time it's alot like putting your eggs in one basket, having a unit that is huge and difficult to move around and position


Some misconceptions here: If making a horde with some unit has this effect then it might not be suited to be fielded in this way. Forming a horde or not however does not automatically put more eggs into anyone's basket. 40 eggs are 40 eggs no matter the formation. You somehow seem to think that a horde has more models or costs more than a bus formation while that isn't necessarily the case. Also, it is quite possible to have two hordes. Or three. Or none. Or all of these in one game.

I often have a unit of 40 Halberdiers (horde) and one of around 34-36 (bus). While my horde does indeed have more models, it's hardly a case of putting all my eggs in one basket, especially with Greatswords, Knights and Stank around as well.

Lastly, a horde isn't any more likely to stay locked in combat per se. It will generate more casualties and therefore be less likely to lose a fight but again, unless we know who's fighting who, that's just an unfounded assumption. In the same vein, if a horde should lose a fight, it will have less ranks compared to a bus, and be more likely to run.

Nixon2802
30-08-2011, 20:05
As far as I can tell from my limited gaming knowledge, the 2 most popular examples of Hordes are the 40+ Khorne Marauders with GW, and the 40+ Bus of Skaven Slaves

But that's just me

popisdead
30-08-2011, 22:46
Hordes are good when they are dirt cheap (goblins, Skaven, etc) or guarenteed to add wounds (Executioners, Bestigors).

They are arguably good on mid-level units (Gors, Savage Orcs).

The issue with a Horde is you risk a 6th spell removing half your unit at once. That hurts a lot when you loose 20 Savage Orc Biguns but only hurts mildly when you loose about 10.

Personally I think support chaff units (chariots, razorgors, etc) in combination with a 6-wide killy unit that will have it's 3-rank combat rez can be really good tactically making Horde less missed.

SilasOfTheLambs
31-08-2011, 23:10
The issue with a Horde is you risk a 6th spell removing half your unit at once. That hurts a lot when you loose 20 Savage Orc Biguns but only hurts mildly when you lose about 10.


However, with the nerf to the power scroll, this has become much easier to avoid.

In general, I agree with what's been said before: the troops that benefit most from horde formation have one attack, and it's better if the attack is a high-quality one. I don't think it *has* to be higher than s5; s4 with hatred is pretty good too. In some cases, even s3 troops could be used; high elf spears can be buffed with mindrazor or wyssan's wildform, or have their foes debuffed with shadow or death magic to make them a viable horde, and gor can take the banner of +1 strength, for example. However, hording up anything that's s3 and has no choice but to stay s3 is foolish in my opinion.

Lord Solar Plexus
01-09-2011, 08:53
The issue with a Horde is you risk a 6th spell removing half your unit at once. That hurts a lot when you loose 20 Savage Orc Biguns but only hurts mildly when you loose about 10.


A horde unit is not necessarily more numerous than a bus unit though, or at least not double the size, and a really large unit could well be fielded as a bus. CW and Marauders are an extreme; you're more likely to have the points available to make a horde from the latter.

I've seen units of 100 Slaves fielded in both formations, and I would reform my 40 Halberdiers depending on the situation.

Lastly, some spells affect every model in the unit, so their formation does not really matter.

popisdead
01-09-2011, 20:56
However, with the nerf to the power scroll, this has become much easier to avoid.

Which is why it was a stupid change. "let's remove something useful that everyone can use and leave it only for Skaven."

Keep in mind Gors can be S5 with Hatred making Horde fairly good for them still.

Malorian
01-09-2011, 21:34
Which is why it was a stupid change. "let's remove something useful that everyone can use and leave it only for Skaven." .

You are the only person I know who thinks the change was stupid...

Lord Solar Plexus
02-09-2011, 10:20
Which is why it was a stupid change. "let's remove something useful that everyone can use and leave it only for Skaven."


What is the Skaven equivalent of the old power scroll?

RanaldLoec
02-09-2011, 11:18
The power scroll is still very useful it just requires more patience to use.

Wait unit your opponent has used his dispel scroll, suck up his dispel dice with mid level threatening spells then when you have only two dice left you use the scroll to lower the casting value to push that important spell through.

I see a use for the power scroll in all three of my armies none of which are Skaven.

Malorian
02-09-2011, 12:39
What is the Skaven equivalent of the old power scroll?

Nothing comes to my mind...

Rochr
02-09-2011, 12:48
In 8th it is all about killing. The days of winning by combat res is gone, dead.. never to be seen again. You want to be able to cause alot of wounds and the best way (IMO) to do this is getting that extra rank of attacks. Make a unit of atleast 40 hard hitting guys so that even if 10 dies to missile fire/magic before they reach their target they will still pack a punch. 20mm models with one attack, high WS and high STR is the best thing you can go for. Small bases make sure they all get in contact easier and avoids bigger units attacks back.

Sure, he might throw a unit with 8 ranks at you to try to stop you with steadfast but in two turns that unit will be decimated. Executioners, White Lions, Greatswords, Bloodletters and Bestigors are good units to horde up that comes to mind.

popisdead
02-09-2011, 20:10
You are the only person I know who thinks the change was stupid...

You mean I am the only person not in the vocal minority against it? Just because a few people complain loudly about it doesn't mean the entire population of Warhammer Fantasy players minus me thought it was a good change.