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Hellebore
02-06-2005, 07:33
I have always liked the inclusion of c'tan into the 40kverse, I like that realspace can produce god like beings as well as warp space.

HOwever, I thought it was a mistake for them to end up on the table top, because they are GODS, how could they stats? They said they wouldn't make the emperor or horus, or the primarchs, and they most definitely WON'T make the chaos gods, becuase these are all supposed to be too powerful to appear on the table.

And the c'tan aren't? :wtf:

Instead I have decided (irrespective of what the 'fluff' says) that the c'tan on the table aren't the gods of the fuff, but rather 'avatars' of those gods.

C'tan conciousness was originally spread across a star system, centred on the sun. By compressing them down into necrodermi they achieved self awareness etc.

I think a fully manifested c'tan would be HUGE, the size of a small space ship. So I reckon the game c'tan are 'pieces' of the conciousness of the c'tan broken off from the main body, which is locked in its tomb/ship eating brains :p .

This piece then acts as its eyes and ears, very similar to the way in which the daemons of a god are 'piece' of the god's conciousness made manifest.


SO what do people think? Bear in mind I like c'tan but can't reconcile their presence on the table in games, and so required some way to justify it, and this is the result.

hellebore

Eldacar
02-06-2005, 07:48
You're saying they're avatars of themselves, you mean. Which is a plain contradiction. Perhaps te C'Tan on the tabletop are the INCARNATION of the God, which is a different thing to being an avatar of a god.

Isuran Greifenherz
02-06-2005, 08:25
Well the codex says that they are Gods, but i can't imagine a God being that weak.(look if they were gods they need to be allmost immortal.

Avenging Dentist
02-06-2005, 08:35
I don't think it's necessary to suggest that a C'tan on the tabletop is an avatar (or an incarnation) of the C'tan itself. GW makes it pretty clear that "killing" a C'tan only temporarily inconveniences it. It's much like Cthulhu from Lovecraft's mythos. In The Call of Cthulhu, some sailors stumble across Cthulhu's sunken city R'lyeh (risen from the depths because "the stars are right"). Cthulhu himself eventually awakens and, in desperation, the sailors try to ram him. Well, Cthulhu is split in twain by the ship, but because he's Cthulhu, he just reassembles his various bits once again.

The importance of this is that just because a being is godlike, this doesn't mean he can't be incapacitated for a time. However, what makes these beings so powerful is that nothing you can do will kill them. That's what makes Cthulhu and the C'tan intergalactic terrors, and not some puny mortals like us.

Hellebore
02-06-2005, 09:14
You're saying they're avatars of themselves, you mean. Which is a plain contradiction. Perhaps te C'Tan on the tabletop are the INCARNATION of the God, which is a different thing to being an avatar of a god.

how is that a contradiction? THe eldar avatar is an avatar of itself- that is the avatar of khaine is a piece of khaine. There is no difference between what I said and what the eldar avatar is.

Unless you believe that by giving the avatar its parent's name and appearence it loses avatar status and becomes the original. the point of an avatar is that it IS of yourself- there is no point in constructing an avatar to represent you and it turns out to be a chihuahua (unless you happen to be a ratdog).

As for the statement that the fluff clearly says they are gods, we know this. We know the nightbringer is a god, but do we know the 'god' on the table is actually the REAL nightbringer? Where does it say that? Also when the necrodermis is punctured the essence spills out and goes back to its tomb to grow a new necrodermis (almost identical to the way the eldar avatar reforms after it is destroyed). This doesn't preclude it rejoining the parent entity to get a new necrodermis, rather than the whole esence transporting this only requires a bit. The rules also say that the spilling essence has a radius of 2d6 inches, yet it clearly says in the fluff that the c'tan covered hundreds of millions of kms in space, and yet when they are freed from their necrodermis they can only manage a measily 20 metres? :wtf:

Lastly, I made it abundantly clear I didn't care what the fluff said, because I personally can't reconcile the stat line of a c'tan with notions of godhood I had to ustify it to myself.

I was simply curious what people thought themselves on this matter.

hellebore

Bmaxwell
02-06-2005, 11:14
that was rather odd that's what a vatar is the smaller version of the god.much like how saints are empoers avatars

thats a good theroy i like it alot that c'tan are avatars

Eldacar
02-06-2005, 11:22
The Avatar of a God is an otherwise mortal creature chosen to be the vessel of that God's will, and carries a part of that God within it.

The Incarnation of a God is that God "come to earth", so to speak.

Brother Munro
02-06-2005, 12:43
40k doesn't have sufficient weapons to actually kill a C'Tan forever (well 4th ed doesn't anyway - oh wait it does :evilgrin: ) but Epic does (Vortex missiles). I think it was wrong of GW to include 40k stats for the C'Tan because, killy though they are, for a 'god' they are rather underpowered (look at their Epic stats). Mainly because a D-Cannon/Wraitcannon shot sucks them into the warp, and the C'Tan don't react well to being in the warp.

Typheron
02-06-2005, 13:17
ive always thought of the necrodermis to a C'tan as a puppet is to a puppeteer. The C'tan controlls the necrodermis and focuses its power into it however just like the puppeter it cannot fully realise itself within the construct.


The more complicated the construct the more it can realise itself within it, or to put it another way the more advanced the necrodermis is the more power the C'tan can focus through it and effect the material world.

We know that the necron war machien is only slowly starting to re-awaken, with the apparent truth that they have not yet revieled there true military hardware so perhaps this is also true for the construction of the necrodermis. If there systems are nor fully functional as yet perhaps the manufactoring process by which the necrodermis is created is not yet at its most efficient producing an underpowered version of it untill the resources are available to make the full blown *go faster stripes* model


The rules also say that the spilling essence has a radius of 2d6 inches, yet it clearly says in the fluff that the c'tan covered hundreds of millions of kms in space, and yet when they are freed from their necrodermis they can only manage a measily 20 metres?

its entirely possable that the C'tan as we see them today are not yet at there full strenth from before they went into stasis, its been a long time and they may need to re-build there strenth by feeding for a while. Also at the time of the nightbringers defeat at the hands of the eldar when all races receved the fear of death or whatever it was he was gorged on the essence of a whole bunch of C'tan so its entirely possable that in this case the energy at its disposal was much greater so his essence burst out in a much more deavastating way.

this is of course post rationalising what is a set of rules intened to balance the table top game and its more just to stop them being overpowering at a 40k scale.

Castigator
02-06-2005, 13:45
HOwever, I thought it was a mistake for them to end up on the table top, because they are GODS, how could they stats? They said they wouldn't make the emperor or horus, or the primarchs, and they most definitely WON'T make the chaos gods, becuase these are all supposed to be too powerful to appear on the table.



Why should Gods be all powerful.

Once you leave the Monotheistic Big Three behind, you'll end up with plenty of Gods (Hinduism, Norse Lore, Greek Pantheon, whereever) who get killed, maimed or captured by ordinary humans, Gods who starve to death, Gods who drown, Gods who just grow old and die, Gods who are actually more frail and vulnerable than humans in certain aspects.

I see no reason at all why the label "God" in itself should qualify anyone or anything for even a single additional statpoint over any reqular Grot or Guardsman (other than some Leadership obviously, at least for those who believe in them).


Hell, I could even see a Xenos Race thats out there in the fight on a quest to protect/rescue/whatever their fallen, maimed and beaten God ofter he got his ass kicked by some other 40K player out there.

Besides, "challenging the Gods" is quite a big part of mythic lore.. why shouldn't it be part of 40k?


[edit]

And no, I wouldn't mind having rules & mini's for Primarchs, Chaos Gods, the Emperor, etc.. out there.

Maybe not for a tournament, but for some narrative campaign they'd be great.

Wraith
02-06-2005, 13:57
Define 'god'?

C'tan are ancient energy being from the dawn of the Universe -- the first life.

The chaos powers are giant sentient warp storms.

Even some Deamon Princes have been worshiped as 'gods'...

The Emperor was a human simple as that it's just he was very powerful psychic.

If the deffinition of 'god' is that which is worshipped then all these can be described as 'Gods'.


The stats of the C'tan are in fact the stats of the Necrodermis but yes I do still think they should have remained in the fluff -- I don't see any reasonable fluff justification as to why a C'tan can only move 6" a turn for example.

Avenging Dentist
02-06-2005, 19:46
its entirely possable that the C'tan as we see them today are not yet at there full strenth from before they went into stasis, its been a long time and they may need to re-build there strenth by feeding for a while.
Not only is it entirely possible, this is exactly what happened (mostly). The Nightbringer, for example, was significantly weakened because of the Deceiver's joy in making things hard for other C'tan.

There's another important thing to remember (aside from my comparison of the C'tan to other god-like star creatures such as Cthulhu): Warhammer 40K doesn't exactly represent the "real" 41st millennium. Space marines, for example, are significantly more powerful in the fluff than on the tabletop. This doesn't mean that space marines aren't totally hard, just that it would be not fun to play against an army of Movie Space Marines. Thus, I imagine that the C'tan are proportionately more powerful (not, however, some near-invincible hunk of living metal).

Furthermore, there is a big difference between a C'tan in its "raw" form and one in its living metal body. Living metal isn't anything that special (the Necrontyr made most of their ships out of it), and I really don't think it should make a C'tan much stronger than, say, a Monolith. A C'tan's true form is, for better or worse, not very well-suited to mashing mortals into a pulp. The fluff seems to indicate that a C'tan without its body is really just a consciousness that feeds on stars (i.e. they didn't manifest themselves in the material world). The Necrontyr then made them their living metal bodies to help them interact with, and thus understand, the material world.

So, basically a C'tan in its raw form has no size, so there's no need to suggest that his essence is split into shards to make the tabletop C'tan. So, no, a C'tan isn't huge physically, but its consciousness is. The part about C'tan being larger than planets is, I think, just a way of describing the domain that a C'tan perceives at its "self".

Talkie Toaster
02-06-2005, 20:24
If the necrodermis only contains a small amount of the C'Tan, more a puppet than an incarnation as Typheron suggested, it would also help to avoid the problems with C'Tan being D-Cannoned out of existence. Only a small part of the C'Tan would actually be lost, definitely incapacitating them for a while whilst they consumed more stars to replace lost mass (I'm not really sure how to refer to a C'Tan's body) but no actually killing them.

TheSonOfAbbadon
02-06-2005, 22:22
The models on the tabletop are the full Gods, IMHO, but, since they have been sleeping for ages, they have lost some energy, so they are weaker, as Typheron suggested.

The Necrodermis, when burst, releases the sentient energy being, which can then go about doing what it likes, feeding off stars, watching it's warriors slaughter/get slaughtered, before going to a tomb world to get another Necrodermis. No amount of the C'tan is ever lost apart from the [relatively] small amount of energy it uses to move, see etc.

On the point of primarches and the Emperor not being made:

The Emperor is stuck in a ******* huge throne which is the only thing keeping him alive, if he is actually living.

Most Loyalist primarches are dead or presumed to be so [the marines of the primarches chapter still say 'NO! He'll be back! He said he would!', my reply to them being '********'] Roboute Gulliman [or wahtever he's called] is still alive, his almost-dead body is being held in a stasis feild in Ultramar, but if they turn it off and he dies.

Quite a few Daemon Primarches are still alive, but they're ****** around in the Eye of Terror, slaughtering anything. Idiots.

So that's why the primarches and the Emperor haven't been made.

Also, to further show why the primarches and the Emperor have not been made and 2 C'tan have, let's take the Nightbringer, 370pts, about as strong as a rather weak primarch. The Emperor was a match for Horus when Horus was pumped fully of crazy chaos energy, so the Emperor would be like 1000pts, Horus would be about 750pts normally, and the weakest primarch, um, let's just take Leman Russ, he would be around 500pts normally.

So you see, Emperor>Horus>Other primarches>Current C'tan [not Void dragon and Outsider, they are stronger than the Deceiver and the Nightbringer].

Xisor
02-06-2005, 22:36
I can't see how the Emperor is >>>>>C'tan. Really.

What is the greatest thing the Emperor ever done?

'Led' Humanity to dominate the Galaxy
Choked by an Ork
Genetically engineered Super Humans

Sure he was a potent psychic, but there's no tell of him crushing titans with a thought, or simply siezing control of his opponents armies mind md battle. Sure he was potent, but just how much? Stats, I wouldn't give him more than a 6 for S & T(and thats pushing it!), quite high WS & BS, his stats simply wouldn't be *that* awesome. A few points up from a chapter master, no more. Not C'tan beating level. It's simply not how it works.

The same applies to the Primarchs...

Wraith has the *very* important point of the thread so far. What the hell 'is' a god, and why can't gods be that weak?

Xisor

Typheron
02-06-2005, 22:56
the emperor is The greatest psykic ever. period.

the thing about the C'tan is that they dont like warp energy too much, its not good for them and a powerfull psykic could possaby channel enough warp energy at him to do some damage, more than likely easily breach the necrodermis.

although given the description in the eldar fluff theres a good chance that a C'tan at full power would be way more than a match for the Emperor. Its all dependen t on what you think of the Emperor, is he just a human with super uber powers capable of boosting himself to god like powers or is he something else. buts thats a different topic all together.

as for the defination of what is a god its all down to perspective, to a caveman a modern human would be a god as he would not understand that our "powers" come from the technolagy we have created. The caveman would not understand the modern human.
In the same way a god in the 40k universe is whatever is two steps above whatever is looking at it. Im sure a Greater deamon would not regard a C'tan as a god as its power is relativly close to it (this is of course an assumption based on the TT rules and the fluff for the current C'tan). The chaos gods, if they do even give a hoot about the c'tan, would probably think of them as inferiour or on a even match but definatly not a god.

The other view is something you dotn understand, the big reasoning up untill the 18th century was that if something inexplicable happened then it was the work of god as either a reward or punishment. So another definition of what could be considered a god is something that you cannot understand and again this is dependant on the perspective of the induvidual viewing the "god"

Twisted Ferret
03-06-2005, 01:01
The Avatar of a God is an otherwise mortal creature chosen to be the vessel of that God's will, and carries a part of that God within it.

The Incarnation of a God is that God "come to earth", so to speak.
One entry found for avatar.
Main Entry: av·a·tar
Pronunciation: 'a-v&-"tär
Function: noun
Etymology: Sanskrit avatAra descent, from avatarati he descends, from ava- away + tarati he crosses over -- more at UKASE, THROUGH
1 : the incarnation of a Hindu deity (as Vishnu)
2 a : an incarnation in human form b : an embodiment (as of a concept or philosophy) often in a person
3 : a variant phase or version of a continuing basic entity

Main Entry: in·car·na·tion
Pronunciation: "in-(")kär-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
1 a (1) : the embodiment of a deity or spirit in some earthly form (2) capitalized : the union of divinity with humanity in Jesus Christ b : a concrete or actual form of a quality or concept; especially : a person showing a trait or typical character to a marked degree <she is the incarnation of goodness>
2 : the act of incarnating : the state of being incarnate
3 : a particular physical form or state : VERSION <in another incarnation he might be a first vice-president -- Walter Teller> <TV and movie incarnations of the story>

Hmm. I'd say that "incarnation" fits better, but that "avatar" would work as well.

john-connors
03-06-2005, 09:59
The Emperor may be humanities greatest psyker, in my view Magnus had more talent but that’s another thread, but the Eldar are no slouches in this field either and they only managed to fight the Necrons to a standstill.

The way I view the C’tan is that the necrodermis holds their essence in one place allowing them to manifest in humanoid form, but it also limits their power. Their stats on the 40k battlefield represent the limits of their power, but in the fluff like Space Marines are capable to defeating a thousand humans, so too in the fluff are the C’tan capable of consuming the souls of an entire planet.

Yorkiebar
04-06-2005, 10:34
They don't seem fully god-like to me. I'd assumed that they are incarnations, similar to the eldar avatar or greater chaos daemons.
Stats, I wouldn't give him more than a 6 for S & T(and thats pushing it!), quite high WS & BS, his stats simply wouldn't be *that* awesome. A few points up from a chapter master, no more. Not C'tan beating level. It's simply not how it works.
XisorI'd say:
WS6 BS6 S4 T4 W4 I4 A3 Ld10
But he'd have some really awesome wargear (Probably sword equivalent to power fist but strikes at normal initiative, 2+ invulnerable save, etc.) and special rules.

Eldacar
04-06-2005, 16:13
WS6 BS6 S4 T4 W4 I4 A3 Ld10
If that is the Emperor, then a Bloodthirster must be fairly weak. Sanguinius met a Bloodthirster of Khorne in single combat and beat it. The Emperor would have been able to do the same thing with relative ease. The Emperor would have a higher WS than that. He would also be far stronger than an ordinary Space Marine. If the Primarchs were far stronger than the Space Marines, the Emperor would be far stronger than the Primarchs.


I'd assumed that they are incarnations, similar to the eldar avatar or greater chaos daemons.
Not necessarily. The C'Tan will always return. You can kill them, but they just keep coming back. That's the thing. It doesn't matter how many times they are killed on the battlefield, because they will always return.

Yorkiebar
04-06-2005, 16:30
The Emperor would have a higher WS than that. He would also be far stronger than an ordinary Space Marine. If the Primarchs were far stronger than the Space Marines, the Emperor would be far stronger than the Primarchs.No, the Primarchs were stronger than the Emperor, because although he was a powerful psychic, he was still human whereas the Primarchs were superhuman. I do concede the WS point, however.

Typheron
04-06-2005, 18:29
which begs the question what does it take to kill a C'tan? we know they can die as the nightbringer killed a hope bunch of them and ate them (or maybe he just ate them).

Also what is the physical nature of a C'tan in its natural form? does it have one?

Avenging Dentist
04-06-2005, 19:08
which begs the question what does it take to kill a C'tan? we know they can die as the nightbringer killed a hope bunch of them and ate them (or maybe he just ate them).Heh, who ever said we could kill them? Presumably, the C'tan in their raw form can interact with each other in some way and "consume" each other. Of course, I suppose it would be possible to suck a C'tan into the Warp with some kind of vortex-type thing. Still, I don't know if that would actually kill them or not...

Also what is the physical nature of a C'tan in its natural form? does it have one?I'm sure it has some physical nature, since the C'tan are confined entirely to realspace, but I doubt that it's physical in our sense. They could be made up of electromagnetism or pure energy or something along those lines, but it doesn't appear that they manifested themselves in any way humans (or Necrontyr) would be familiar with.

Xisor
04-06-2005, 19:09
I got the impression from the Necron codex that a C'tan's 'natural state' is a plasma based entity. They exist in the corona of stars, so their 'bodies' would be gaseous, likely plasmatic.

As to what can kill them. The combined force of the Blackstone Fortresses of course! If three can destabilise a Star and set it for Super Nova. Sure, that would destroy the star, but does destroying a burger kill the person eating it?

No. I'm confident that there is now nothing left in the power of the 40k Galaxy that can destroy a C'tan. With the loss of some of the talismans, they cannot combine to full force. Wound the C'tan perhaps, but really, I think it does something excellent for the background that there is now nothing that can stop them, nothing obvious yet...

Xisor

Avenging Dentist
04-06-2005, 19:17
...Wound the C'tan perhaps, but really, I think it does something excellent for the background that there is now nothing that can stop them, nothing obvious yet...I do hope there's nothing that can kill a C'tan anymore (the Warp-vortex idea was a bit of a stretch as it is). They're a whole lot cooler when nothing you can do will ever stop them and that for the most part, you just have to duck your head and hope they don't notice you. At best, the other races should only be able to annoy the C'tan. Otherwise, they really aren't all that scary.

Typheron
04-06-2005, 20:01
well theoretically there is one way to stop them and that is distroying there servants the necrons in their entirety so that they do not have helpers on the physical plane to assist them in the creation of new bodys with which they can use to interact with the world. Probably not feasable at all due to the shear scale of what would be needed to kill them all.


although that said they convinced the necrons to help them they could convince a new race later on to do the same and construct them new bodies.

DantesInferno
05-06-2005, 08:16
No, the Primarchs were stronger than the Emperor, because although he was a powerful psychic, he was still human whereas the Primarchs were superhuman. I do concede the WS point, however.


Hold on....The Emperor was stronger than the Primarchs, full stop. Whether he got this power from his psychic abilities, innate superhumanness or genetic manipulation or any combination of the above, he's still left at the top of the pile.

Remember that Horus, the most powerful of all the Primarchs, even at the height of his powers and given added power by the Chaos Gods, couldn't beat the Emperor one on one.


And theoretically, surely hitting a C'tan's necrodermis with a Wraithcannon, D-Cannon or Vortex grenade would destroy it? Sucking it into the warp seems pretty final, even for a C'Tan.

Avenging Dentist
05-06-2005, 19:05
And theoretically, surely hitting a C'tan's necrodermis with a Wraithcannon, D-Cannon or Vortex grenade would destroy it? Sucking it into the warp seems pretty final, even for a C'Tan.Who says that would work, though? I could easily imagine a C'tan sacrificing his living metal body and retaining his true form if he were hit by one of the above weapons. This would certainly inconvenience a C'tan, but not kill it. In fact, one of the above weapons might not even work on a C'tan at all. The C'tan do have a weakness to the Warp, but it doesn't say why or how, so it's tough to say what the effects would be...

gLOBS
05-06-2005, 19:39
I seem to think of the C'tan being like the ghosts in pacman. They go around huntin for awhile then bam out of nowhere they get killed and hafta run back to get a new suit.

Xander-K
05-06-2005, 20:07
Remember that Horus, the most powerful of all the Primarchs, even at the height of his powers and given added power by the Chaos Gods, couldn't beat the Emperor one on one.

it was a close thing! also Horus had to fight Sanguinius first, so not exactly one on one there. The Emperor is not more powerful than Primarchs (as in, he isn't as effective in combat) but he's just a good psyker.

Its like comparing an Inquisitor Lord to a Chaplain, the Lord is weaker (lower stats) but has more psychic gizmos and the Chaplain is better at the fighting and has better stamina.

DantesInferno
06-06-2005, 02:18
it was a close thing! also Horus had to fight Sanguinius first, so not exactly one on one there. The Emperor is not more powerful than Primarchs (as in, he isn't as effective in combat) but he's just a good psyker.

Its like comparing an Inquisitor Lord to a Chaplain, the Lord is weaker (lower stats) but has more psychic gizmos and the Chaplain is better at the fighting and has better stamina.

Well, as I said before, it is pretty pointless to try to separate the Emperor's physical strength from his psychic ability or genetic engineering. The point is, he was as physically as capable (again, taking into account all the factors) as the Primarchs, so his stats would be the same, if not higher. Just look at him doing the anvil lifting with Vulkan, the wrestling with Ferrus Manus, the eating with Russ (and punching him) etc. The Emperor, according to the sources we have, was no slouch physically.

And surely being a good psyker would contribute to his effectiveness in combat, thus making him more powerful than the Primarchs? Simple fact is he beat the most powerful of the Primarchs one on one, even when he was further augmented with the power of all four Chaos Gods!

Oh, and how hard do you think Horus needed to try to tear Sanguinius apart? The chink in the armour thing is most likely a Blood Angel myth to help them come to terms with the fact their Primarch got pwned. I'd say Horus was just as fresh for the fight when the Emperor showed up.


And to get back on the topic, Wraithcannon, D-Cannon and Vortex Grenades seem to work on much the same principle as the Talismans of Vaul (Blackstones) - hit the bastard with warp energy/suck him into the warp. Just as the Blackstone kills or seriously injures them in their energy states, I can see other smaller Warp-based tech severely hurting, if not killing them in their weakened state in their Necrodermis. I think being sucked into the Warp by a Wraithcannon is going to be final, especially for a C'tan, so I'd see them steering well clear of Iyanden, for instance......

Black Ambience
06-06-2005, 12:08
And to get back on the topic, Wraithcannon, D-Cannon and Vortex Grenades seem to work on much the same principle as the Talismans of Vaul (Blackstones) - hit the bastard with warp energy/suck him into the warp. Just as the Blackstone kills or seriously injures them in their energy states, I can see other smaller Warp-based tech severely hurting, if not killing them in their weakened state in their Necrodermis. I think being sucked into the Warp by a Wraithcannon is going to be final, especially for a C'tan, so I'd see them steering well clear of Iyanden, for instance......

The C'tan cannot be sucked into the Warp though... Wraith Cannons cannot do that to a C'tan (says so in their rules). Bits of their Necrodermis can be pulled into the Warp, but the essence of the C'tan remains intact. Therefore, I suggest that the C'tan, as energy beings derrived from Stars, literally cannot enter the Warp, as a physical law.

Blackstones work in a totally different way to Vortex Grenades/Wraith Cannons/D-Cannons etc. The former brings Warp energy into this dimension and saturates the target with it, the latter opens a tear in this deimension to the Warp and sucks the target in. The latter has no effect on the C'tan, merely on their Necrodermis. In fact, a Tyranid Warp blast would probably have more of an effect on a C'tan than a Wraith Cannon, since it channels energy into our dimension.



As far as the C'tan being gods? Well, what is a god? A being of infinite power? Then none of the "gods" of 40k are real gods. A being of immense power when compared to those around it? That's more like it... So in that respect, a great many things can claim to be "gods". I'd direct you to the Goa'uld in Stargate.

ankellagung
07-06-2005, 06:39
Personnaly I agree with the orginal interpretation of them as "avatars".

Also, there is a *huge* difference between avatar and incarnation. The incarnation of something is that thing given form. We are, for example, ourselves incaranate. Chaos incarnate would be, essentially, the warp itself given form (if I understand the relationship between the two correctly) as a single being/object. An avatar is a part or facet of a whole being. Going back to the chaos example Khorn, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch are all avatars of chaos. Hence an avatar of Khaine is not Khaine himself, as that would be Khaine incarnate. As such, based on a direct interpretation, AFAIK (not having read the Necron codex) the C'Tan we see are incarnations, but I much prefer the idea of them as avatars, as this explains them appearing on thousands of different battlefields.

Still, each to his own.

Hellebore
07-06-2005, 08:33
Personnaly I agree with the orginal interpretation of them as "avatars".

Also, there is a *huge* difference between avatar and incarnation. The incarnation of something is that thing given form. We are, for example, ourselves incaranate. Chaos incarnate would be, essentially, the warp itself given form (if I understand the relationship between the two correctly) as a single being/object. An avatar is a part or facet of a whole being. Going back to the chaos example Khorn, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch are all avatars of chaos. Hence an avatar of Khaine is not Khaine himself, as that would be Khaine incarnate. As such, based on a direct interpretation, AFAIK (not having read the Necron codex) the C'Tan we see are incarnations, but I much prefer the idea of them as avatars, as this explains them appearing on thousands of different battlefields.

Still, each to his own.



That was pretty much what I decided when I posted this thread. Obviously the inflammatory title has gotten peoples attention ;) .

Anod for the detractors of my statement, don't get me wrong, I believe the C'TAN are gods, but not the ones that appear on the table top.

As to them not being as powerful as they used to be, well that is true, but what happens when they eat a few planets? Will their stat lines in the game go up to 10 across the board?

As I said earlier I like the c'tan, but I just don't think having them on the table is a good idea, but because they ARE on the table, I had to rationalise these two opposite opinions.

hellebore

Castigator
07-06-2005, 08:52
As to them not being as powerful as they used to be, well that is true, but what happens when they eat a few planets? Will their stat lines in the game go up to 10 across the board?


Why (and how) should eating planets raise the stats?

Why should a God at even his fullest potential necessarily be immune to a Bolter?



As far as the C'tan being gods? Well, what is a god? A being of infinite power? Then none of the "gods" of 40k are real gods. A being of immense power when compared to those around it? That's more like it... So in that respect, a great many things can claim to be "gods". I'd direct you to the Goa'uld in Stargate.


As mentioned earlier, Gods only have infinite power in the monotheistic religions where they're also formless, insubstantial, all-encompasing, etc...

In any other religon, Gods usually represent idealized or typical characteristics, protagonists in mythical creation or morality plays, etc..

Not that nowhere does it state that a God needs to be more powerful than any regual, mortal human.

Once more I'll direct you to Hindu, Greek or Norse Mythology where it's quite common for gods to get tricked, captured, beaten or humiliated by normal humans, where gods can age, die, drown, starve or get knocked out like any man, where gods are often as not even more frail than normal humans, subject to specific limitations that make them vulnerable in certain ways (like to a song, a special materilal, etc..), where gods are subject to love, envy, hate, greed or stupidity like most of humanity, etc..

Either way.. the Eldar Avatar should be reasonable tough because it's a divine aspect clad in living metal (and metal is kinda tough), not because he's divine.

If it would be a divine aspect clad in living flesh, it might just as well have to wounds and toughness of a regular eldar guardsman and still be a god.

Same goes for the C'tan and the other gods.

I mean why did the C'tan create the Necrons in the first place if not because they'd fear to get wounded on the battlefield if they'd handle all the fights on their own.

Why do the Chaos Gods corrupt Space Marines and gather demon servants if they could just walk up to a Space Marine Company and smite em singlehandedly?

In short, Gods don't need to be (though they may be) the toughest beast out there (or on the tabletop). But being God or divine by itself doesn't qualify for a single additional statpoint over any reqular mortal (other than Leadership arguably)

Hellebore
07-06-2005, 09:07
Why (and how) should eating planets raise the stats?

Why should a God at even his fullest potential necessarily be immune to a Bolter?


I was responding to the claim that their stats right now in the game reflect their weakened state- if T8 is weakened is T10 not weakened? And T8 IS immune to a bolter anyway.

I don't think that if you shot nurgle with a bolter it would hurt him, do you?

When I said eating planets it was a short cut meaning the cunsumption of all the life energy of every sentient being on that plane- that is how they get their power.

Thus a weakened c'tan is no longer weakened when he has regained his strength through eating his favourite food- brainsss :D

hellebore

Castigator
07-06-2005, 09:10
I don't think that if you shot nurgle with a bolter it would hurt him, do you?


That's exactly what I was saying.

What speaks against it?

Castigator
07-06-2005, 09:13
I was responding to the claim that their stats right now in the game reflect their weakened state- if T8 is weakened is T10 not weakened? And T8 IS immune to a bolter anyway.


1.) Strenght is not Toughness

2.) Strength of gods does not necessarily imply physical strenght or toughness

3.) Strong does not mean the strongest (or toughest) there is out there.

Hellebore
07-06-2005, 10:37
1.) Strenght is not Toughness

2.) Strength of gods does not necessarily imply physical strenght or toughness

3.) Strong does not mean the strongest (or toughest) there is out there.


How does increased power NOT coincide with increased destructive potential? Taking in to consideration that a 40K GOD is not that same as a real world interpretation, because it is a WARGAME the gods all have destructive power, and when they increase their own power, their destructive power also increases.

At the height of his power the nightbringer was destroying whole worlds, how is that NOT an increase in the toughness and Strength of a model?

I can't see the logic of your argument at all. What in your opinion DOES a 40K GODS strength give it then, if not the ability to destroy mortals and lord it over them (something universal regarding *40K* gods)?

THe c'tan are very offensively minded gods, and it even says in the fluff that the nighbringer ate his comrades to gain more power so he could do more destroying.

hellebore

ankellagung
07-06-2005, 11:03
Uh, question: Greek and Norse Gods beings destroyed by *ordinary*, *mortal* beings? Are we talking about the same ancient cultures here? Could I have an example?

Hellebore
07-06-2005, 11:14
Uh, question: Greek and Norse Gods beings destroyed by *ordinary*, *mortal* beings? Are we talking about the same ancient cultures here? Could I have an example?


Who are you talking to? I am pretty sure some of the ancient dieties were defeated by mortals, although they generally have something special about them (mother was a nymph- father was a god that sort of thing).

40K gods follow a very basic premise- shootykillydeathdestroyers ;) . They are beings of immense destructive potential that do alot of destructing.

hellebore

Eldacar
07-06-2005, 11:17
Uh, question: Greek and Norse Gods beings destroyed by *ordinary*, *mortal* beings? Are we talking about the same ancient cultures here? Could I have an example?
Agreed. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that refers to Greek and Norse Gods being killed by ordinary humans...


nighbringer ate his comrades to gain more power so he could do more destroying.
I thought he ate them because the Deciever tricked him into thinking that other C'Tan would taste better than mortals.


That's exactly what I was saying. What speaks against it?
Ever been bitten by a mosquito? Now imagine that mosquito trying to bite something the size of earth. Then multiply that size accordingly. The level of hurt that Nurgle would recieve from a bolter shot it so close to zero that the effective damage done is zero. He receives more "emotional energy" from the mortal subconscious than he would lose in the time it takes for the bolter to do damage anyway. Net result = effectively zero damage done to him.

When Black Roses Bloom
07-06-2005, 11:20
Uh, question: Greek and Norse Gods beings destroyed by *ordinary*, *mortal* beings? Are we talking about the same ancient cultures here? Could I have an example?

Ahm... I didn't get that one...

Could you rephrase it somehow?

Castigator
07-06-2005, 18:15
Ever been bitten by a mosquito? Now imagine that mosquito trying to bite something the size of earth. Then multiply that size accordingly. The level of hurt that Nurgle would recieve from a bolter shot it so close to zero that the effective damage done is zero. He receives more "emotional energy" from the mortal subconscious than he would lose in the time it takes for the bolter to do damage anyway. Net result = effectively zero damage done to him.



A. - A mosquito biting is not trying to kill. It's trying to feed.

B. - There's plenty of Insects (Amoba, Bacteria, Viruses, etc..) that can kill Humans and bigger things.

C. - Despite A. and B. i'm certainly willing to admit that having an advantage of size and mass will also give you an advantage in a fight. Therefore, if Nurgle is indeed plantet-sized than he would be pretty tough and likely immune to bolter shots. But so would some planet-sized Spacefungus without even a sense of selfawareness or any other planet-sized being - divine or not. Your example proves that there's a relation to size and toughnes.. not godhood and toughness.

D. - I can't think of any references that Nurgle should be this absurdly large, but I don't have a Chaos Codex handy right now. Either way.. as said above, it's a matter of physical size, not of godhood in either case and most polytheistic gods are infact more or less human-sized (give or take a few meters).

E. - Not sure where your getting at with "Emotional Energy". I'm sure it has it's uses, say in redirecting it to corrupt more minions, sway enemies psychologicaly, etc.. and will in one way or another doubtlessly make a devious god more powerful. But I doubt that "Emotional Energy" could be translated into physical toughness. Heavily emotional beings don't seem to be hard to kill in general than apathetic ones.

Castigator
07-06-2005, 18:50
Agreed. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that refers to Greek and Norse Gods being killed by ordinary humans...


The founding myth of Irland is basically a conquest of the gaelic gods by the people who slew three sons of Ogma and forced the rest of the gods (who were defetead but left alive) to depart across the western ocean to the land of eternal young (tir-non-Og)

In Hindu lore, many a God is killed in battle (or even accidentally like Vishnu by a woodcutter), albeit since Hindu believe in reincarnation (humans as well as gods) they tend to come back.. (but so do humans killed in battle)

Greeks are tricky since the dividing line between Gods, Half-Gods and Human Heroes is rather blurry. The death of Dionysus (Son of Zeus) would be one example, but different versions place him as a Son of Peresphone (making him a Full-God), others as a Son of Semele (making him merely a Half-God). Similar problems exist with other (Half?)Gods as Aeneas (Son of Aphrodite) and Achillies (Son of Thetis).
Either way, Greek Mythologie is full of Gods getting beaten (Zeus be Herkules), tricked (Hades by Orpheus), outsmarted (Poseidon by Odysseus), chained, tortured, etc..

Medusa (killed by Perseus) was also sometimes placed as an evil Godess with ties to Cronos (at other times she's just a nasty Titan though).


Norse Legends tell of the King (of) Gylfe who entered the Home of the Gods to kill the Giant(s) Ymers who held the Gods hostage. Not the same as killing a god I admit, but it's god needing a human to help them out of a thight spot which proves the point just as well.

Odin, bound to Yggdrasil also either died or almost died (depending on the story), though admittedly by his own design.

When Black Roses Bloom
08-06-2005, 02:11
Actually Medusa was only a monster killed by Perseus with the help o Zeus and Apollo (Apollo gave him the winged sandals and a mirror shield so he wouldn't see directly at Medusa's eyes). The only strong enough to chalenge the ancient Greek Pantheon were the Titans that were beaten by the gods and banished to Tartarus (with few exceptions).

Castigator
08-06-2005, 07:51
The only strong enough to chalenge the ancient Greek Pantheon were the Titans that were beaten by the gods and banished to Tartarus (with few exceptions).


Actually the Olympians challenged the Titans and became Gods upon defeating them (xept Zeus, who being the Son of Cronos, was already a God).

And Medusa (in some versions) was a godess, out on revenge because she got raped by Poseidon. (it is true though, that different versions exist)


As I said, the lines are blurry in Greek myth. Still, They fight, fear, suffer and bleed even though they do have special powers and divine gifts.

The Egyptian God Osiris got cut to pieces. ...

The Aztec Sun God (HUITZILOPOCHTLI) was actually constantly starving...

The Inka Sun God (Sapan, or something) got eaten by Jaguars...

The Japanese God Izanemi died in Childbirth..

etc...


I mean guys, before I keep on listing boring examples that might well be disputed since ancient myths usually exist in multiple versions and translations ain't always precise, you might want to show me an example of a God just taking a sword or something and simply walking away like nothing happend.

This notion of invulnerability seems totally absurd in my eyes and I'd really like to know where it came from.

ankellagung
08-06-2005, 07:54
But common to all of them was that a God needed something special to be killed. You didn't just walk up and stab them, you used a magical sword, or a special potion, or you were favoured by another God. It really took something *special*, as opposed to "my lasgun can kill you if I fire it for long enough".

Castigator
08-06-2005, 07:59
But common to all of them was that a God needed something special to be killed. You didn't just walk up and stab them, you used a magical sword, or a special potion, or you were favoured by another God. It really took something *special*, as opposed to "my lasgun can kill you if I fire it for long enough".



Yes, but thats the way stories are told.
I don't think that Abbadon the Despoiler or Dante of the Blood Angles would go down to an ordinary lasgun either if you'd descripe their death in a novel or other piece of fiction.

Neither am I saying that gods should be easy to kill. The certainly should get that "Hero-Bonus" and some funky special rules. Aswell as a few extra Wounds (like any special character) to survive the first random Lasgun blast and favor a more dramatic outcome.

But just because Myth & Legends don't use random-sword-03 but some more elaborate descriptions is no reason to assume their invulnerable.

[edit]

Also, IIRC most 40K weapons ain't ordinary. Most parts from a given space marine chapters armory are ancient, special and revered relics. Armor, Weapons and vehicles are spiritually cleanes, purified and blessed hundreds of times over, etc... the battles and kills they accomplished are remembered and retold endlessly, etc..

They certainly carry as many of the "special" notion as any greek heroes fabled sword did.

Eldacar
08-06-2005, 08:23
A. - A mosquito biting is not trying to kill. It's trying to feed.

B. - There's plenty of Insects (Amoba, Bacteria, Viruses, etc..) that can kill Humans and bigger things.

C. - Despite A. and B. i'm certainly willing to admit that having an advantage of size and mass will also give you an advantage in a fight. Therefore, if Nurgle is indeed plantet-sized than he would be pretty tough and likely immune to bolter shots. But so would some planet-sized Spacefungus without even a sense of selfawareness or any other planet-sized being - divine or not. Your example proves that there's a relation to size and toughnes.. not godhood and toughness.

D. - I can't think of any references that Nurgle should be this absurdly large, but I don't have a Chaos Codex handy right now. Either way.. as said above, it's a matter of physical size, not of godhood in either case and most polytheistic gods are infact more or less human-sized (give or take a few meters).

E. - Not sure where your getting at with "Emotional Energy". I'm sure it has it's uses, say in redirecting it to corrupt more minions, sway enemies psychologicaly, etc.. and will in one way or another doubtlessly make a devious god more powerful. But I doubt that "Emotional Energy" could be translated into physical toughness. Heavily emotional beings don't seem to be hard to kill in general than apathetic ones.
1) The mosquito is causing pain to you. Which was the point. Not whether it is trying to either feed or kill, but it is causing you pain.

2) The Chaos Gods are, IIRC, giant sentient Warp Storms within the Warp itself, and they are formed in relation to the four most powerful emotions of the mortal subconscious mind. As long as those emotions exist, the Chaos Gods will exist. Before those emotions, the Chaos Gods were, IIRC, merely giant predators that mindlessly fed on the lesser Warp-spawned creatures, absorbing those energies to maintain their own strength. However, they were mindless at that time. It was the advent of the mortal emotions that gave them "sentience", and what could be termed as their godhood.


Actually the Olympians challenged the Titans and became Gods upon defeating them (xept Zeus, who being the Son of Cronos, was already a God).
Zeus, Poseidon and so on were already Gods, I think, as they were the children. Zeus was merely the only one of them who Cronos didn't actually eat. Athena was always a Goddess, for example, as was Hera.

When Black Roses Bloom
08-06-2005, 08:31
Just for the story:

Cronos was a god that would eat all of his children because he was afraid that one of them would take the throne from him. Rea, who was mother to Zeus, gave Cronos a stone wraped in a baby's cloth and saved Zeus from being eaten. Zeus was transfered by Rea in Crete, left there and raised by Cretans. When he was old enough he came back and claimed the throne from his father. Athena was born out of Zeus head, that's why she was also called the Goddess Of Wisdom. If memory serves, she was concieved by Zeus alone, without any help from Hera. Heaphestus broke the head of Zeus in two, with his hammer, for her to be born, because Zeus had terrible headaches.

ankellagung
08-06-2005, 13:39
I'm afraid I have trouble understanding your post, but I think I got the gist of it.


Yes, but thats the way stories are told.
I don't think that Abbadon the Despoiler or Dante of the Blood Angles would go down to an ordinary lasgun either if you'd descripe their death in a novel or other piece of fiction.

But they acutally exist, so when someone says "They were killed with the Eagle's Talon" when they were actually hit in the eye with a lasgun, it's propaganda or false information or whatever. When a myth says he was killed with a magical weapon it's what happened because it's all made up.


Neither am I saying that gods should be easy to kill. The certainly should get that "Hero-Bonus" and some funky special rules. Aswell as a few extra Wounds (like any special character) to survive the first random Lasgun blast and favor a more dramatic outcome.

But we aren't talking rules wise what a god gets, we are talking about whether the C'Tan are really as weak as they are on the table top, and I would say that the difference between, say, the Nightbringer and Marneus Calgar is huge. No, bigger than huge. The only way a could agree with you here is if the special rules went along the lines of "God: At the start of any phase, roll ten d6. If any come up with a value greater than 1, Necron player wins automatically, and the enemy may only take 100pts of models in his or her next game. Such is the fury of a star god"


But just because Myth & Legends don't use random-sword-03 but some more elaborate descriptions is no reason to assume their invulnerable.

I don't think they are invulnerable. In fact, the Gods of the ancient world, along with the C'Tan, are undeniably killable. But it takes something special. You don't just walk up to Zeus and stab him with your kitchen knife (actually, that's not true: IIRC if said kitchen knife was made with the bone of a titan, you could), it takes something more than would kill a mortal.


Also, IIRC most 40K weapons ain't ordinary. Most parts from a given space marine chapters armory are ancient, special and revered relics. Armor, Weapons and vehicles are spiritually cleanes, purified and blessed hundreds of times over, etc... the battles and kills they accomplished are remembered and retold endlessly, etc..

They certainly carry as many of the "special" notion as any greek heroes fabled sword did.

But they [I]aren't[I] the same. When I say "it takes something special" to kill a god, I don't mean special in the sense of "this sword has been in Achille's family for generations" special, I mean "this sword was gifted to Achille's by Apollo and has magical power within" special. And bolters, despite what the Cult of the Machine might tell you, are just guns. If said bolter were made by the Old Ones and was packing ammunition imbue with their power, then sure, go ahead. Otherwise, it's just a really killy gun.

6th and Final Champion
08-06-2005, 15:19
The C'Tan are so weak because they havent beeen able to feed on anything for milions and millions of years and are just waking up. Thus they are still gods just weakened, and thus fieldable.

Castigator
08-06-2005, 17:08
But we aren't talking rules wise what a god gets, we are talking about whether the C'Tan are really as weak as they are on the table top, and I would say that the difference between, say, the Nightbringer and Marneus Calgar is huge. No, bigger than huge.



Well, thats my point all along.

You say that the Nightbringer or any other given god should be incredilbly harder to kill than Marneus Calgar (a mortal hero who himself won't be easy to kill), but I simply can't find any reason why this should be the case and I honestly find the notion unfounded and pretty absurd.

Why should that be the case?

The whole notion that the weapons that kill gods are special is also constructed backwards.
You assume the weapons of myth that killed gods where imbued by some secret, special magic, because you assume (and I still don't know why) that otherwise the gods would be unkillable.
I'll say this isn't the case (and I can find no proof that says otherwise) Obviously Greeks described weapons of stories to be special and unique, and every Greek Hoblite certainly had his own sword blessed to replicate the effect, but so would Space Marines in 40K.
There isn't any substantial difference.

TheSonOfAbbadon
08-06-2005, 17:11
Son of Peresphone (making him a Full-God)

Persephone was not a god, she was a girl [orginally named Kore] who was taken to the underworld by Hades. Not a god.

Typheron
08-06-2005, 18:07
Well, thats my point all along.

You say that the Nightbringer or any other given god should be incredilbly harder to kill than Marneus Calgar (a mortal hero who himself won't be easy to kill), but I simply can't find any reason why this should be the case and I honestly find the notion unfounded and pretty absurd.

Why should that be the case?



The blackstone fortresses were built specifically to combat the necrons as well as the 100 swords used by the eldar whose name i forget. Both of these weapons are stated as being built specifically to combat the necrons with the Blackstones supposed to be C'tan killers. You dont build a space station to kill a Ultramarines captain (unless your totally overkill) thus suggesting that perhaps there a bit harder to kill thanthe leader of a space marine company.

Adept
08-06-2005, 18:08
Well, thats my point all along.

You say that the Nightbringer or any other given god should be incredilbly harder to kill than Marneus Calgar (a mortal hero who himself won't be easy to kill), but I simply can't find any reason why this should be the case and I honestly find the notion unfounded and pretty absurd.

Why should that be the case?

:wtf:

One might as well ask why a Marneus Calgar should be harder to kill than a grot.

He should be harder to kill for the same reason a God should be harder to kill than a mortal.

Because they are undeniably 'ard. They are juiced up with all sorts of Ethereal powers and ****.

To cross reference: A Bloodthirster is a daemon. Khorne himself (a god) is so immensely powerful that he makes a bloodthirster look like a puppy.

His stats would have to be (in order to do justice to the fluff) around 100 times* better than those of a bloodthirster. So, around 600 wounds, 800 attacks, a 1+ invulnerable save, toughness 600 or so.

This would, in game terms, render said God invincible. As it should be. Because Gods are really frickin uber.

* - 100 times is a random guess. It is impossible to ascertain the power of something like a God. Suffice to say it is well and truly more than any mere mortal. including the Emperor.

Xisor
08-06-2005, 18:27
I just can't see how we can quantify the powers of 'The Chaos Gods'. They are essentially manifestatioins of peoples thoughts. Look at it. Slaanesh killed trillions(well, lots...) of Eldar across the Galaxy in an instant. At birth.

I think the difference in 'gods' in 40k is quite clear. Well, it should be anyway...

1- Warp 'Gods'. Manifestations of peoples thoughts in the warp. Chaos and Ork Gods appear to be these. Eldar, I'm unsure

2- Eldar & Human 'Gods'. Presumably akin to Greek Gods, were once just very very powerful beings, eventually becoming 'Warp' Gods...perhaps...(like the Emperor is predicted to ascend into the warp).

3- Physical Gods. Beings of unimaginable power. Effectively Aliens in the same sense as "How could we tell the difference between a sufficiently advanced being and God?". These are the C'tan, and depending on how the Old Ones 'were', they could be this too. The C'tan are a race of beings, just like humanity. But so more incredibly advanced it's as well just to call them gods and be done with it.

Xisor

Typheron
08-06-2005, 18:34
except thats not exactly right as the power of a c'tan does not come from advanced technolagy alone. The tech is found within the body they are inhabiting but it only provides a point of focus through which a C'tan can send its own power. Its not tech in the case of a C'tan, its there natural abilities sent through a object capable of focusing them by the will of the C'tan.


The old ones used tech and were peceved as gods, with a C'tan its natural. A super powerfull being using its own natural abilities to do things above anything else, sounds like a good start to a definition of a god to me.

the other question is can the c'tan do any of this stuff without a body to focus it through?

Xisor
08-06-2005, 18:40
Nope, Necron tech was superior to Old One tech according the Codex Necrons.

I know the C'tan were that advanced 'biologically' as well. They were evolutions first 'lucky break', the one that potted all the balls in the exact order needed to get the top score possible. First time. But does that make them gods? Sort of. They are essentially the 'supreme beings'. None are more singularly powerful.

'A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality. '

A simple look at dictionary.com yielded that for the term 'god'. They are not of 'unnatural' power, like the denziens and users of the Warp. They can control reality. Essentially, yes, they are gods.

Don't know where I'm going with this...

Xisor

Typheron
08-06-2005, 18:52
Nope, Necron tech was superior to Old One tech according the Codex Necrons.

yes but were not talking about the necrons themselfs, were talking about the nature of a C'tan, or at least i am although this rases the question wither or not you can take the C'tan and the necrons as serperate within a discussion due to there need to rely on each other. Necrons need the C'tan as leaders since they worship them as gods (or at least did at one point) and the C'tan need the necrons to ensure that they have a steady supply of avatars/hosts/puppets on hand for there ongoing war against everything.


Don't know where I'm going with this...

neither do I but im just gonna run with it and see if at some point it makes sence.

Xisor
08-06-2005, 19:11
In fact, with a little added thought I'm sure that the C'tan have far more right to be called gods, that I can see anyway, than any of the other 'so called' gods in 40k....

Whats the thought on that? Does it actually have any implications?

Xisor

Typheron
08-06-2005, 19:23
In the traditional sence of a god then perhaps yes, they are superior beings that exist within our universe and have there own whims and agenda. They could be considered physical gods of the universe with the Chaos god being the Emotional god of the universe based on where there power comes from.


The C'tan are more like the greek gods of old when there using there necrodemis.

ankellagung
09-06-2005, 07:26
You assume the weapons of myth that killed gods where imbued by some secret, special magic, because you assume (and I still don't know why) that otherwise the gods would be unkillable.

No, I say they were imbued with magical powers because the myths say they were. It isn't a matter of me simply going, "they were magical because I say so", it's a matter of the myths themselves saying it take a magical weapon to kill a god.


I'll say this isn't the case (and I can find no proof that says otherwise) Obviously Greeks described weapons of stories to be special and unique, and every Greek Hoblite certainly had his own sword blessed to replicate the effect, but so would Space Marines in 40K.
There isn't any substantial difference.

But these stories are entirely made up, so we must assume they are correct. And there is a substantial difference between "the local priest blessed my weapon" and "apollo gifted me this sword".

Also, why would the Old Ones bother with the Talismans of Vaul if they could just beat the C'Tan into a bloody pulp? Were they really that into overkill?