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mossel
28-08-2011, 00:48
Archmage (shadow)
-level 4
-the Ring of Fury
-the Silver Wand
-the Talisman of Preservation

Noble
-BSB
-great weapon
-the Armour of Caledor
-the Dawnstone

Mage (high)
-level 2
-the Annulian Crystal

10 Archers
-musician

25 Spearmen
-full command
-the Banner of Eternal Flame

25 Spearmen
-full command

22 Phoenix Guard
-full command
-the Banner of Sorcery
-the Amulet of Fire

18 White Lions
-full command
-the Dragonhelm
-the Amulet of Light
-the Banner of Swiftness

6 Dragon Princes
-musician

6 Shadow Warriors

Great Eagle

Great Eagle

The list is made for a tournament (11 september), so I tried to make it quite competitive and able to take on all what comes my way.

I'd like to know what you would change and if you could give me some pointers (problems I might encounter etc).

grhino
28-08-2011, 12:19
Decent all comers list. Looks fine by me... harldy any shooting but then again to you really need that with a list like this one? Agressive use of magic can counter this deficit...

medas
29-08-2011, 06:02
First you have to provide which are the tournament special restrictions. For example: is BoH banned? Is there any reason your units are that small?
Second: How will you bit a horde army? How will you deal with a DoC Greater Daemon? How could you encounter VCs? How would you confront a full dwarf or empire gun-line?
Could you analyse your strategy?

grhino
29-08-2011, 13:08
Gunlines could indeed tear this army apart unless you´re able to counter them with magic- shadow is maybe not the most effective one then. Why put the Silver Wand on your archmage and not the regular mage? (okay, more casting bonus, but also all eggs in that one basket).

I think the numbers in the units are fine, considering that we are talking about HE's... medas: have you ever fought a horde with a block of spearmen? They rock! HE's dont need hordes unless you're taking big units of Phoenix Guards or White Lions... now that I mention it - why not take 40 Phoenix Guard or White Lions and save the command costs? Give them a magic banner (would take the Swiftness one) and a banner on the DP's with the Banner of Sorcery...

D'Haran
29-08-2011, 13:19
Not a bad list, it might have some troubles with nasty lists as the other posts point out. Part of the problem is that you've stayed away from any HE overpoweredness, no BoH no Teclis, no horde of PG. Which leaves you to rely upon tactics and strategy, but if you're a good player this shouldn't be a problem. As for your response for monsters you really need to get magic off to make it happen, but without BoH it's much harder to do.

witchunter180
29-08-2011, 15:15
I would hate to face this army as a skaven player. I would, if it were possible, leave out the white lions and just go for more pheonix guard. Causing fear AND a 4+ ward save?! Insane! Particularly with the lightning cannon (scare the infantry and/or wipe them out, while enduring ranged attacks that ussually ignore armor). Maybe leave out the noble just to get in some more spearmen/pheonix guard may not hurt but maybe he's part of your stragedy.

Avatar of the Eldar
29-08-2011, 22:55
I respectfully disagree with grhino's counsel. Not saying that he's wrong, but here's an alternative point of view. As always, your preferences and experience are your best guide.

Those thoughts:

I wouldn't take a horde of anything in an HE list.

I haven't gotten good use out of bound items in 8th. But I can see you wanting another direct damage spell. Consider the "Can't touch this" set up on the Archmage. (Forlaith + Talisman of Saphery) Good for challenge shennanigans.

I wouldn't over invest in PG. They're a resilient bunker for your Archmage and the BoS. They don't hit worth a wet noodle - even with Mindrazor. 18 is plenty. better to have 21 WL's in 3 ranks.

I see what you're doing with the Shadow Warriors as a second unit of shooters but you're sapping points from something that could do real damange like the Dragon Princes. I get their value in snatching buildings in tournament settings and my clubmate who's been running them swears by them. So I'm not saying they're a bad choice. Just play and see if those 6 DP's feel like too few.

I haven't run cav since 7th. I'm curious if someone has mathhammered Dragon Princes vs. Swordmasters. DP's being more expensive and survivable but the SM's dish out the attacks.

An alternative thought here would be to use those SW points to create an archer block with Mu and Banner of Eternal Flame. You'd give up the "scout blocking" but you'd have a unit that could last a bit in a flank charge in later turns. To be honest, I haven't tried this myself, but I'm considering it.

As for the Amulets, Dragon Helm and Banner of Swiftness, I'm skeptical. How about one good banner instead of these bits and bobs? Heck I'd rather have +1 CR resolution than 1" of movement. Maybe Banner of Arcane Protection since your one hitty unit will be a magic magnet.

Although I've been committed to running LSG, I like that you've got two blocks of Spears. With Shadow on your LvL 4 each is a potential threat. I just don't think you have enough hittiness.

mossel
30-08-2011, 00:11
When building the list, I started with filling out my core selection.
-2 decent blocks of High Elf spearmen are the best choice, I think, as they are quite cheaper than LSG, doing the same amount of damage in close combat. (ok, they don't have bows, but in 8th edition, it's all about destroying complete units. I haven't been able to do that with high elves shooting yet, so I went for the blocks).
The Banner of Eternal Flame grants one unit flaming attacks (could come in handy against HPAs and hydras). When the BSB is in this unit, he can also shoot a flaming arrow, so monsters will lose their regeneration for a shooting phase (I know I don't have a lot of shooting, but with 10 spare points, I think I can give it a try).
-the archers are there to deal with small units (I don't expect many of those, but there is always an eagle, some harpies, some fast cav... to deal with)

Then for characters:
-the Archmage with Lore of Shadow is an obvious choice: mindrazor makes spearmen crazy good, the pit kills low I by the hundreds, the withering and enfeebling foe can swing a combat in my favor and melkoths always comes in handy. Thanks to the Silver Wand, I have 5 spells, so I almost always have all the spells I want! The Ring of Fury helps me to deal with ethereal creatures and 2D6 S4 also helps to deal with small units or can take a rank away from advancing troops. A 4+ ward helps my mage to survive. (I've played with the untouchable combo, but tend to end up with the mage losing combat, breaking and being overrun. The book is a great choice too, but I prefer tactics over brute force :) )
-the high mage gives me drain magic (******* you, slann mage priest, vampires...) and almost every spell in the high lore helps me survive or cripple my opponent's army. the annulian crystal has proven invaluable almost every game I've used it (my opponent cast one less spell, I can dispell one more, as it swings the balance 2 sice in my favour)
-the BSB helps my troops stay in line (I always throw 10-12 on Ld tests) and it adds a little punch to my troops (hooray for S6 ASF)

The rest:
-2 Eagles really help to take out war machines and they are great redirectors
-the shades are also there to hunt war machines, lone mages, small support units and if need rises, they can also redirect the enemy.
-the phoenix guard are a solid anvil and a bunker for the Banner of Sorcery. I think they aren't that bad, especially with the mindrazor buff.
-the white lions are great troops for dealing damage to armoured units (always S6).
-the Dragon Princes can add to CR scores for any block that can use the support. On their one, they've taken care of smaller blocks and cavalry units with flank charges. Again, mindrazor on DP is FAN-TAS-TIC (12 S9 attacks and 6 S5 attacks!)

Notes:
-the WL and PG champions have a 2+ ward against flaming attacks, it never hurts to be prepared (same goes for the BSB, who is a great flamer hunter!)
-the Banner of Swiftness has often helped me to get a charge (opponents choose to stay about 14" away from them, thinking I'll need a 9 on my 2D6, as in fact, I only need an 8)


For the tournament, there are no restrictions. Every item is allowed, special characters are allowed... But I prefer playing without special characters, so that's why there is no teclis (I could drop the shadow warriors to include him, I'll think about it).

Gun lines do pose a threat, but so far, I haven't seen many of them on tournaments in Belgium. empire usually means war machines, great swords, an altar and flagellants. Dwarfs bring rangers, war machines, an anvil and large blocks that don't die :(

Vampire counts are a tough nut to crack, but I usually just go for the general. I have enough units to effectively kill entire blocks at once and I have a decent magical defence. (most vampire players fill up their core with ghouls, take a block of grave guard or black knights, wraiths or a black coach and some expensive characters that keep the army's numbers up (and a helm of commandment to keep the WS high...)

I haven't played against skaven that often, so they do worry me (dreaded 13th kills 75% of a unit, which afterwards doesn't really pose a threat to the rats...) I feel like I can take care of the war machines and monsters (as long as I can counter most of the magical onslaught).

Feel free to comment further on this :)

Avatar of the Eldar
30-08-2011, 01:03
-the shades are also there to hunt war machines, lone mages, small support units and if need rises, they can also redirect the enemy.

Uh, they're Shadow Warriors.

Keep that up and you'll get kicked out of Ulthuan. :p

Let it roll and report back how you did with the list and what your experience indicates you might change.

mossel
13-09-2011, 10:07
I've played in the tournament last Sunday and ended up in third place!

My first battle was against ogres (still using the previous rules), lead by Skragg.
I had quite an easy victory.
My second battle was against an all goblin list (with wurzzagh as the only orc).
Lady Luck was on my side and in my last turn I snatched victory away from my opponent.
In the last battle, I played another high elves list, with Teclis, Korhil and Caradryan in it. The battle ended in a draw.

If I had used teclis, I probably would have had an even better result in the first 2 battles. In the final battle, I think he would have helped winning.

In conclusion: the list (without teclis) is a more than playable list in a competitive environment, but it's no absolute powerbuild. Playing against it is fun, though all my opponents told me the list is harder than it seemed at first glance.