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View Full Version : Best Codex to do counts as Iron Hands



Npf6
29-08-2011, 21:17
Hey so pretty straight forward. What space marine type codex best represents the Iron hands. While also at the same time being competitive and fluffy to a certain degree.

AngelofSorrow
29-08-2011, 21:23
Try codex: space Marines. None of the others fit at all.

Magister
29-08-2011, 21:28
Space Marines, for the above reasoning plus they aren't exactly Codex divergent.

TheConverter15
29-08-2011, 21:32
Space Marines. Above reasons and it has most options for techy stuff too.

Grimtuff
29-08-2011, 22:11
Even though I hate the idea of these "counts as" SM codex bandwagon type things the answer is begrudgingly Space Wolves.

Iron Hands from the IA article on them are certainly NOT codex. They have no Chapter Master (only a Chapter council mainly consisting of Dreads), No Terminator squads (and could only have such models as Sgts in squads).

Space Wolves enable you to both have a HQ Dread (Bjorn) and Termies in squads (Wolf Guard).

Techpriest
29-08-2011, 22:16
I have to agree with the Space Wolves. The ability to have Terminator Sargents in Units and the Only Codex That does allow A Dreadnaught as an HQ fits the fluff. You would just have to limit yourself on not taking certain units. Other wise I would go with SM Codex and utilizing the Multiple Dreads and Techmarines available.

Jericho
29-08-2011, 22:23
Playing Space Wolves for Iron Hands fluff and not pure competitiveness wouldn't be a problem. As you (Grimtuff) indicate, their abilities mimic the old school IA article very well (Termi sergeants in regular squads especially).

Avoid the silly fetish marine units (Thunderwolves) and upgrades that don't make sense, even in the SW book (Mark of the Wulfen on every single goddamn squad leader and character) and most people will forgive you in a heartbeat.

All that being said, you can't go wrong with Vanilla. Not exactly flashy, but it'll do 95% of what you need it to do.

aka_mythos
29-08-2011, 22:26
Let us also consider the fact that the only Iron Hand second founding chapter to have rules by Forge World has a special character that effective lets a single Devastator squad do a lot of the same tricks as Long Fangs. Its just one more parallel.

In general I would say you need to come up with the type of list you want to use first. Then see which codex works best for that.

Okuto
29-08-2011, 22:29
errr...space marines......you already have a master of the forge in there.....why would you use anything but space marines.....

aka_mythos
29-08-2011, 22:32
Because not all the Iron Hand Clans have Iron Father leaders?-Because he wants more than a single unit to define his army, or else he wouldn't have asked?

Excessus
29-08-2011, 22:47
So instead of one unit to define his army, he wants two? Soooo much better...

There is no actual reason to believe that the things you buy from the HQ slots actually are the leaders of the team. Why not just say that the MotF is there to fix stuff and the actual leader is the venerable dread? You don't have to take terminator sergeants, not like all squads in the chapter has them... besides, I bet there are times where they put together a strike squad of termie-sergeants to clear out tight spots...

Npf6
29-08-2011, 22:57
The reason im doing this poll is like Mythos says. I want to have some options that feel like iron hands. Not just one guy like the MToF or vulkan pretending to be an iron father or something..

Grimtuff
29-08-2011, 23:04
So instead of one unit to define his army, he wants two? Soooo much better...


It's a lot more than that. It's items of gear as well. The Saga Of Majesty for example which can be applied to Dreadnoughts (and Ven Dreads). This allows models within 6" to re-roll failed morale tests. Perfect for representing the IHs reverence of the wisdom of ancient heroes contained within. Iron Priests with the Saga of the Iron Wolf.

The SW list ports the way the IHs were represented in their IA article better than the SM codex. Granted it's not a perfect fit and you lose out on some units/equipment (TFC, Conversion Beamer) but it fits better than the SM codex does.

Excessus
29-08-2011, 23:05
you are doing a "counts-as" army anyway, what part about a master of the forge is not especially "Iron Hands"? Do you think a bunch of rabid space-puppies are a better "counts-as" for the rest of the army? Are Iron Hands known for their brutal close combat capabilities?

Look at it as a whole, not just on a unit or two...

aka_mythos
29-08-2011, 23:05
So instead of one unit to define his army, he wants two? Soooo much better...

There is no actual reason to believe that the things you buy from the HQ slots actually are the leaders of the team. Why not just say that the MotF is there to fix stuff and the actual leader is the venerable dread? You don't have to take terminator sergeants, not like all squads in the chapter has them... besides, I bet there are times where they put together a strike squad of termie-sergeants to clear out tight spots...

I'm not talking about the dreadnought. I even said he needs to consider what type of Iron Hands army he wants first before really deciding. I think there are strong ways to do it effectively with both.

For example, I think using Legion of the Damned with Unyeilding as representing a squad of heavily cybernetic Iron Hands would be pretty cool for conversion fodder. Obviously the dreadnoughts and MotF are interesting, but I think even Vulkan He'stan has enough going for him to do an Iron Hands count-as... can you say metalic worm-skinned cape? These are more obvious and the OP may simple want the road less traveled.

Its just important to remember that unlike other codex marine chapters the Iron Hand clans retain a greater degree of autonomy from each other than most marine chapter's companies... and thus vary a bit more. Hence why I think they're open to interpretation

Grimtuff
29-08-2011, 23:08
Its just important to remember that unlike other codex marine chapters the Iron Hand clans retain a greater degree of autonomy from each other than most marine chapter's companies... and thus vary a bit more.

You mean like.... dun dun dun! Space Wolves? ;)

aka_mythos
29-08-2011, 23:11
Yes its another similarity.

Excessus
29-08-2011, 23:14
I didn't know that the Iron Hands were famed for being better than regular marines in close combat in general...hmm...must have missed that part of the fluff...

...and that they seem to ride on the back of giant wolfs...somehow...

minionboy
29-08-2011, 23:15
I'm still leaning towards vanilla marines. The Iron Hands are frequently led by senior techmarines called Iron Fathers, which is pretty much where the Master of the Forge came from. Plus that allows you to have dreadnoughts as heavy, meaning more cybernetic goodness. The only thing you're really missing are the terminator sergeants for tactical squads, which is fine, nobody used them when they had the chance because it was terrible.

Dryaktylus
29-08-2011, 23:40
Space Wolves
*Dreadnought HQ
*Terminators in Tactical Squads

Vanilla
*MotF
*Servo-harness
*Ironclad Dreadnoughts
*Dreadnoughts as HS
*Thunderfire Cannon

Dark Angels
*a lot of Techmarines... nothing else

Blood Angels
*:eyebrows:

Chaos Space Marines
*:wtf:

aka_mythos
30-08-2011, 00:39
For thoroughness, what I said before that Long Fangs also parallel what Iron Hands second founding chapter can do in the FW badab war book. Its something even if not as heavily weighted.

Iron Fathers have never been depicted with servo-harnesses so can that really be considered note worthy for the vanilla book?-Its effectively just saying MotF twice. I also don't understand why the Thunderfire cannon is synonymous with Iron Hands either. Yes they have a stronger prevalence of Techmarines, but that isn't necessarily the same as saying they make extensive use of Thunderfire cannons. That said triple thunderfire cannons is a fun list.

Chem-Dog
30-08-2011, 01:02
I voted for SM codex and then read the thread. Mistake.
Although not totally convinced against the idea Aka_Mythos ond Grimtuff do make a very persuasive argument for using SW's.
If suitably weighted towards the IH for feel (IE no Thunderwolf cavalry) I don't see why SW's can't work quite well but perhaps the advantages of using that codex for feel outweigh the game advantages for going Vanilla.


(TFC, Conversion Beamer)

I think I'm right in remembering the TFC is used fairly heavily by the 'Hands, the Apocalypse formation consisting only of them is cited as being an Iron Hands development IIRC.
But I don't think there's any fluff one way or another on the CBeamer, if the SW codex lost out to this and this alone, I'd suggest a reconsideration, it's not All that anyway.



Chaos Space Marines
*:wtf:

Quoted cos I laughed. Smileys > Words.



Iron Fathers have never been depicted with servo-harnesses so can that really be considered note worthy for the vanilla book?

For the sake of argument, how many picture of Iron Fathers have we seen since the Servo Harness was revealed to us? Or at all, for that matter.
How many picture of iron Fathers on Bikes/wearing Terminator Armour/Jump Packs have we seen?
Just because we haven't seen it, doesn't mean it can't happen, although it doesn't mean it can, or indeed should.


-Its effectively just saying MotF twice. I also don't understand why the Thunderfire cannon is synonymous with Iron Hands either.

Like I said above, I think they're supposed to be the originators of the Thunderfire Apoc Formation.


That said triple thunderfire cannons is a fun list.

Unless it's set up across the table from you :cries:

ehlijen
30-08-2011, 01:09
The problem I see is that the SW troops choices don't really fit the Iron Hands.

They wouldn't give initiates power armour (they don't have as many to give out as the wolves, nor would they give trust untested troopers with them), so blood claws are out.

But Grey hunters are not a clean match either. Nothing in the IH background supports heavies being dropped for specials in their tactical squads, if anything, their devestator focus (what little there is) would imply the opposite. And as said, nothing supports the idea that IHs train more in HtH combat than other chapters.

I find that C:SM is the better match. Sure, you don't get termie squad leaders, but at least you get erveything else (just call your elite VenDrread the leader) a chapter like the Iron Hands would have: fitting versions of all the basic squads (which they have used in all their incarnations), dreadnaughts, chaplains, techmarines and a fair number of heavy weapons.

Lord Gabranth
30-08-2011, 01:25
Personally I hate counts as armies but after reading this thread I have believe that Grimtuff and Mythos are right. SW does seem to fit the IH theme better then Vanilla marines.

Wow, both my mind changed about counts as and I agreed with Grimtuff in the same post. :D

Napoleon Blownapart
30-08-2011, 01:40
Grey knights, obviously XD

jk jk

zoggin-eck
30-08-2011, 01:59
I'd stick with Codex Marines, myself.

I once painted some Iron hands, hoping to make an army (another unfinished army!) It did always annoy me that they can't take terminator sergents, though. That's one of their defining differences, and I'd just have to ignore that, sadly. I'd totally be fine with someone using Space Wolves for that reason alone!

Brother-Captain Endymion
30-08-2011, 03:51
I'd go Vanilla. A while back I thought about doing an IH force based on my Iron Father (which was Chaplain Cassius... he does have high toughness because of extensive bionics, and isn't the Iron Father a blend of Techmarine and Chaplain?).

I'm sure it's a stretch, but whatever.

zendral
30-08-2011, 04:00
I've been struggling for awhile on what to use for iron hands. It was always going back and forth between wolves and codex marines....but neither would do them justice IMO. Untill I read the badab books. It's using forge world rules, but I rock the medusa character in the 2nd badab book and it just fits best for me. Feel no pain cyber devs, mean hq, fearless machine logic army-wide, tech-raider for my character and his servitors (land raiser Achilles), etc. I wanna use the forge world salamanders dread from the same book, but he is so expensive, and the flame attacks dont feel right for an iron hand dread hq (duh, that's because it's a salamanders dread :p).

Hellebore
30-08-2011, 04:49
This comes down to people arguing over what part of the 'character' of the army is important for counts as-ing...

For those looking for an army list to counts as they generally look for the features that stand out as similar, whilst those against it are looking at the features that don't.

This is also due to the fact that the old IA articles were just space marines plus a few idiosyncratic rules. So someone looking for an army list will just look for the things that match those points, hence termi sergeants, dread HQs and sagas that represent veneration etc.

In the end though I don't think it matters. The space wolf codex is available for play, it's a legal list. WHY you are using the list is irrelevant, because using it isn't illegal regardless. This sort of attitude ultimately results in the 'grey plastic marines' chapter, that way they can never offend the sensibilites of anyone regarding 'background' because they COULD be whatever chapter you're playing. Annoying your opponent with lazy unpainted armies is apparently far less of a crime than choosing a colour and using a different set of legal, GW approved abstract mathematical mechanics... :shifty:

Hellebore

Stealin' Genes
30-08-2011, 04:53
It doesn't matter, use whichever you like. If I were doing Iron Hands I'd probably use C: SM for them, that seems like a better fit to me overall.

But your mileage may vary. I will say I find counts-as forces a lot more convincing when it looks like serious effort has gone into them.

We all know that guy, the one with the primed black marines who uses a different book every week depending on what the latest and leetest marine book is. Don't be that guy. Whichever you decide to use, pick a concept and stick with it is my advice.

Dryaktylus
30-08-2011, 11:35
For thoroughness, what I said before that Long Fangs also parallel what Iron Hands second founding chapter can do in the FW badab war book. Its something even if not as heavily weighted.

Vaylund Cal gives Devastators Feel no Pain - I can't see any similarities. He also has...


Iron Fathers have never been depicted with servo-harnesses so can that really be considered note worthy for the vanilla book?.

... a servo-harness. And if those had existed at the time of the Index Astartes article, I'm sure the Iron Fathers had the option (if not the necessity) to take one.


I also don't understand why the Thunderfire cannon is synonymous with Iron Hands either. Yes they have a stronger prevalence of Techmarines, but that isn't necessarily the same as saying they make extensive use of Thunderfire cannons. That said triple thunderfire cannons is a fun list.

More fun then to assemble them...:shifty:

But anyways:


In general I would say you need to come up with the type of list you want to use first. Then see which codex works best for that.

QFT, it all depends on how you see the chapter. If you take Index Astartes, C: SW is your only option to take terminators as squad leaders. Bjorn would be an interesting HQ choice, but then he's the only one that really fits. And there're other restrictions: the Iron Hands are not noted for fielding elitist scouts or giving bikes and jump packs only to their neophytes. Your force would be limited (though not weakened if I look at the usual Space Wolves lists).

If I would play Iron Hands I'd take as much Mechanicus stuff as possible (yes, even a TF cannon:p). HQ would be MotF, maybe He'stan or Cal too. Then some dreadnoughts and one or two techmarines. The rest is your choice.

ChrisMurray
30-08-2011, 11:59
I voted for the SM codex, partly because I think you can use a MoF and take lots of dreads\thunderfire cannons etc and also because it's the book that they are listed as being in. I mean you wouldn't look for another codex to do the Ultramarines in would you?

But saying that if you want to use the SW codex there have been some good arguments for it. So I can't see anyone complaining.

Brother of the Hydra
30-08-2011, 12:08
It has to be vanilla for me as well I am afraid, yes the SW codex allows you to field Terminators in tactical squads but thats not enough IMO.

IH are defined by their Iron Fathers, Techmarines and bionics. Just because your Chapter does not have 'special rules' does not mean you should go looking for them. The painting/conversions are what make an army and I really like the idea of LoTD being cyber enhanced IH, that's a good call.

aka_mythos
30-08-2011, 12:51
I can't see any similarities.
...
More fun then to assemble them...:shifty:
Sure enough... the dangers of posting at work. The trick to the thunderfire... convert your own. If its metal and its larger than a 30mm base its time to convert one.