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reddevil18
30-08-2011, 23:17
Hey
In 1 week time i am going to be going against the new O&G book for the first time and i am expecting as much cheese as a babybel factory.

As the title suggests i am playing WoC and the size is 2800, What sort of things do i need to worry about?

Fanatics i know about but the guy im playing keeps winding me up about tikkers (Gears of war) saying he has a tikker tatic, Anyone know what he is on about?

calnen
31-08-2011, 20:09
No idea about what tikkers are.

New units...

Be afraid of Mangler Squigs - they do massive damage against heavy infantry if they hit. (Like fanatics, but they hit harder). Try and kill them with magic.

Fanatics are largely unchanged - so if he takes a lot of them it could cause problems.

The A-Rok could cause some difficulty, as you'll still be wounding it on 6's. No special hints for dealing with it, just do the same as with any other large monster.

In terms of cheese, expect a troll horde (630 points for 18 - rude not to take them!) and a savage orc big'un horde with a shaman. The shaman has an item that grants them an extra point of ward save - snipe him to remove the save from the unit.

(This feels weird, like I'm betraying my army! But I guess Chaos need the help ;-))

Cragum
31-08-2011, 21:31
Ha as an orc n gobbo player i understand what tikkers are going to be. They will be getting damn straight up in your warriors grill and crapping hell from any orifices they may contain. Such as you manglers who seem to be moving no where till they get close and then bam! Lots of dead warriors.

Believe me in one game with one mangler in one turn, i killed off 12 warriors of chaos, 3 chosen and then in the opponents turn took out three chaos trolls.


Also if you have some night goblins on the field then keep a distance... ;)

TMATK
01-09-2011, 00:19
Bring plenty of dogs and you shouldn't have to worry about fanatics or manglers. You might want to pack a dispel scroll to fend off foot of gork for a turn, it can be very good against blocks of warriors. Puppet as well, but I think that's a standard in any WoC list. Arocks easily munch hellcannons, so you may want to focus fire it if you take any.

Gaargod
01-09-2011, 01:12
Dogs are a mandatory choice if you're tailoring to O&G (there are a lot of people who say dogs should be a mandatory choice in any case). Those things will be making your opponents release fanatics faster than he can say "magic mushrooms". Manglers are also a good target for them - once they've got in combat, they're rather hard to keep pointed in the right direction...

Your infantry will annihilate anything of his that isn't a monster/character in combat. Seriously, even cavalry and trolls (especially with flaming banner) should disappear in double quick time. Characters might be an issue, but they're not 'that' hard to kill. Moreover, O&G suffer from some pretty shocking LD, so once the general/bsb is out of the way, expect things to start running.
Note: Possible exception to the rule is (horde) black orcs. You'll still kill them crazy fast (T4 5+, so with halberds you hit on 3s, kill on 3s), but if he has enough models to strike back, your expensive warrior blocks will disappear. These guys are an ideal target for marauders though, as they should be in a big enough unit to... well, not care overly much.

The big spider is another matter. There are several possibilities. Firstly, drop hellcannon shots on its head - you should have 2 at this level, so they'll have nothing better to do all game (see above about infantry evaporating in combat). Secondly, magic the damn thing. If you can drop its stats with shadow, warriors will tear it apart. It also, like many large monsters, dislikes pit of shades/purple sun. You could always take the simpler option of, slowing, blasting it to death with Tzeentch (baleful transmog works surprisingly well here). I'd suggest against a hitty character/monster of your own - it hits hard as it is, and packs a single heroic killing blow attack that, murphy's law, will kill the first monster you send at it first turn.


Oh, and massed artillery (doom divers!) hurts. A lot.

reddevil18
01-09-2011, 12:55
@ calnen

Whats a good way of killing mangler squigs and fanatics?
So far i can only think of magic missiles.

A-rok meaning the giant spider? Im thinking of bringing shadow so ill lower its stats when the time comes.

Im not expecting a troll horde as i dont think he has the models for it but he could borrow them.
Best counter to those is flaming hits, anything else?

And thank you i really do need help as ive only played against O&G once and that was 7th ed lol



@chagrum

What are these tikkers then? or is it the mangler squig?
I plan on hitting that very soon with magic, it doesnt pop out of a unit like fanatics does it or can i hit it turn one?
Im expecting loads of fanatics in those night goblins but he may not bring them knowing id expect them lol.
His usual trick is lots of night goblin units and a pile of fanatic models next to the table even if he hasnt got any lol


@TMATK
I think ill bring a few dogs lol. Which do you suggest 6 units of 5 or 3 units of ten?
Foot of gork im not to worried about as i have festus in the warrior block for 5+ regen and the chosen of 3+ ward.
Ive never taken the puppet before and dont really see it benifitting me to much.
And im taking 2 hell cannons :)


@gaargod
As i asked above do you suggest 6 units of 5 or 3 units of 10 dogs?
Also if i land a unit of top of a squig does that unit have to survive the 3d6 hits to auto kill the squig?

Ill make sure to try and take out the general and BSB as soon as possible then :)

For the black orcs i plan on casting the enfeebling foe to lower the strength by D3 then cast curse of the lepper, if i get lucky thats the whole unit dead in 1 turn.

As for the spider as should have higher int i plan on getting into combat and casting mind razor, alot of strength 8 hits should kill it before it even touches me.
Thats if it survives my hell cannon blasts.

And yes if he has any sense he will bring alot or war machines lol

Tayrod
01-09-2011, 13:30
If you want to kill the a-bomb with the Hellcannons, it might take a while, as far as I can remember, it does only fire as a stone thrower, it has nothing in the unit entry saying it wounds like a stone thrower (i.e. no multiple wounds). I dont know if this is an oversight, or if GW meant it that way, but RAW, I think this is the way to play it (which kinda sucks for me, as I play WOC too)

reddevil18
01-09-2011, 13:41
My group has always played it as D6 wounds as that comes under the stone thrower entry and it say fires like a stone thrower.

BaSe
01-09-2011, 13:45
If you want to kill the a-bomb with the Hellcannons, it might take a while, as far as I can remember, it does only fire as a stone thrower, it has nothing in the unit entry saying it wounds like a stone thrower (i.e. no multiple wounds). I dont know if this is an oversight, or if GW meant it that way, but RAW, I think this is the way to play it (which kinda sucks for me, as I play WOC too)

It fires exactly like a stone thrower which means it does d6 wounds in the centre. At such a high strength it kills every thing :D


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=54.077405,-2.842783

TMATK
01-09-2011, 13:49
I would take 4 or 5 units of 5 dogs. That's enough to cover the battle line. Don't go bigger then that, they aren't going to kill anything in CC. The best way to kill a mangler is to sit on it with a unit of dogs. No, they don't have to survive the 3d6 hits to kill it.

I play against WoC with my Orcs all the time, and the infernal puppet drives me crazy! It saves you from a bad miscast, and it makes it very dangerous for your opponent to go for IF. Forget about it if that hellcannon misfire result comes up!

FYI, that enfeebling foe + curse of the leper trick doesn't work. Curse of the leper can bring you to 0, but enfeebling foe cannot. It's RiP and it always carries the "minimum of 1" stipulation.

Edit: The rules for the hellcannon rules don't say anything in regard to how many wounds it does. That's because you look to the stone thrower rules for that info - d6 wounds under the dot.

reddevil18
01-09-2011, 14:03
Awesome then i know how to kill those things :)

Yea if you cast eneebling foe first it can take you to 1, then the curse takes you to 0.

Odin
01-09-2011, 14:06
Watch out if he has Savage Orc big un's. I've seen them annihilate my unit of Chosen (Khorne or Nurgle) more times than I care to remember. Alright, twice, but that's more than enough to be very wary of them.

TMATK
01-09-2011, 14:12
Awesome then i know how to kill those things :)

Yea if you cast eneebling foe first it can take you to 1, then the curse takes you to 0.

The order you cast is irrelevant. Enfeebling foe is still part of the equation, and so are all it's rules. It doesn't simply change the stat line and go away.

If you're doing an equation that takes the opponents toughness to 0, enfeebling foe cannot help you get there.

reddevil18
01-09-2011, 14:21
@odin
Whats the diffrence between them and black orcs?

@TMATK
Can you please give me referance or somewhere its written to confirm this please?
Not that i dont belive you im just quite dis-hearted that my plan wont work lol

TMATK
01-09-2011, 14:29
...

@TMATK
Can you please give me referance or somewhere its written to confirm this please?
Not that i dont belive you im just quite dis-hearted that my plan wont work lol

Well, the only reference I can give you is the enfeebling foe spell description :)

Think of it this way - you cast EF on a unit of orcs and get a 3, making their toughness 1. Then you cast CotL, which makes their toughness 0? No. You're not simply coming in and changing a 1 to a 0, you're doing the whole equation every time

4 + -3 + -1 = 0.

The problem is, that -3 has a rule attached to it, ie "minimum of 1" So that equation cannot go to 0.

I'm pretty sure I'm right, but you can start up a thread in the rules forum if you want to be sure.

reddevil18
01-09-2011, 14:36
Very good reasoning but messes up my whole game plan so i will start a new thread over at rules section and get a wider range of views lol

reddevil18
01-09-2011, 14:43
Did a forum search before i posted and alot of people find this a very good and legal spell combo.

reddevil18
01-09-2011, 15:01
The list so far

Sorcerer lord, Tricksters helm, Dawn stone, spell familiar, diabolic splender, magic lvl 4, lore of shadows
Exalted hero of tzeench, Halberd, BSB, banner of rage, bloodcurdling roar
27 chosen of tzeench, halberds, Full command, wailing banner, favour of the god on the champ

Chaos warshrine of tzeench

Festus
21 chaos warriors of khorne, Halberds, Full command, war banner

50 chaos marauders of khorne, Great weapons

Hell cannon

Hell cannon

5 War hounds

5 War hounds

5 War hounds

5 War hounds

What do you all think?

Odin
01-09-2011, 15:38
@odin
Whats the diffrence between them and black orcs?


The difference is... I haven't faced black orcs in 8th edition! :D

Tayrod
01-09-2011, 16:11
@odin
Whats the diffrence between them and black orcs?



Savage orc big uns: 3 attacks (most likely), str 5 in the first round of combat (4 afterwards), ws 4, most likely 5+ ward save
NO magic banner

Black orcs: 1 attack, str 7 (first round, str 6 afterwards) attack (ws 5 methinks)
OR: 2 attacks, str 5 attacks first round, str 4 afterwards.
Immune to psych, 5+ armor, magic banner, gains hatred with grimgor

Tayrod
01-09-2011, 16:25
It fires exactly like a stone thrower which means it does d6 wounds in the centre. At such a high strength it kills every thing :D


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=54.077405,-2.842783


My group has always played it as D6 wounds as that comes under the stone thrower entry and it say fires like a stone thrower.

You might be wrong, depending on interpretation.

From the WOC book:
"The hellcannon fires as a stone thrower with a Strength of 5 (10 for the model under the hole). Units hit by the template (keep in mind, hit, not wounded) must take a panic test at -1 LD. (p66 WOC)

Under Firing a stone thrower
Nowhere in the section under "firing a stone thrower", does it say anything about str value, or multiple wounds. (P114 BRB)

The muliple wound thing falls under the damadge section, and the WOC armybook already has a damadge section, which (can be argued to) rule(s) this one out. (P115 BRB)

So one could argue (my opponent does at least!) that the Hellcannon does not get multiple wounds.

EDIT: keep in mind the doomdiver also "fires as a stone thrower" but noone is arguing that it gets D6 wounds...

Brother Haephestus
01-09-2011, 17:03
Hey
In 1 week time i am going to be going against the new O&G book for the first time and i am expecting as much cheese as a babybel factory.
You're playing Chaos and you're accusing O&G of cheese? BWAHAHAHAHAAH!

I think everyone's given you a pretty good description of tactics so far. The best thing about Chaos is that it has something for everything, and is way too easy to customize for all-comers. Just about the only way to play a "fair" game against Chaos is for Chaos to not know what army it is facing ...

I personally believe just about the only thing that is going to give you any pause is Boar Boyz, and Savage Orcs at that. The advantage is the ward save, which, with Lucky Shrunken Head, means 5+ but there are plenty of ways around that.

For the most part, your opponent is going to be ecstatic to be getting 5+ to hit you, and wounds are going to be in the same range. A huge (maybe horde-sized) unit of marauders with great weapons and Khorne. You'll be hitting like crazy, and yet have more than enough troops to maintain Steadfast (the first round may be close, but after that ...)

Your opponent may provide a screening line for his night goblins. They're mostly present to block your puppies and allow him to get your own screen line down before his NG get within 8. If you don't have puppies, he may launch fanatics right through his own screen line without concern. A small unit of 5 marauders to flank and pull the fanatics out at your whim is not necessarily a bad thing. Personally, I don't put fanatics on the front lines any more. I put NG archers in the backfield with my war machines and watch my opponent get upset as he tries to get in to take out my 'Divers. This HAS backfired due to the random nature of the fanatics, however ...

Personally, I've been focusing about six months on how to beat Chaos and haven't come up with any reliable, amazing low cunnings yet. I don't think you're going to have any problems myself.

EDIT: I think Tayrod is right on Hellcannon damage. The "Fires as" is in how it delivers its payload. Everything else is already covered.

Eta
01-09-2011, 18:12
EDIT: I think Tayrod is right on Hellcannon damage. The "Fires as" is in how it delivers its payload. Everything else is already covered.

He is not, there is a thread in the rules section somewhere concerning the mechanic.

reddevil18
01-09-2011, 18:13
Brother Haephestus this player has only lost 1 game in 2 years and i know thats not due to lack of playing. He has played 24 games most are masacures
The only advantage i have is hes a skaven player using a friends O&G as part of our campain.

Ive been playing the hell cannon like that all along and no was has argued it so far.

TMATK
01-09-2011, 18:18
Read the hellcannon rules, you will note that there is no mention of how many hits or wounds are caused by the template.

Why only 1? Why not 2, or 10? There's no rule in warhammer that says templates do 1 wound unless stated otherwise.

You have to look in the stonethrower rules for that information, and stonethrowers do d6 wounds under the dot.

Tayrod
01-09-2011, 18:50
Yes there is, page 9 describes how templates hit, and as far as I can tell, each hit causes 1 wound unless otherwise noted. Anyway I see how you guys might be right, I just think it's still open to interpretation. Keep in mind I've yet to check out thread ETA mentioned, so I might be wrong. Sorry if this is a bit of topic OP

(BTW: Does this mean that Doom Divers do d6 wounds too, I guess not since it does not use a template (with a hole) per-se?)

reddevil18
01-09-2011, 19:53
Thats fine tayrod.
And i dont know the doom diver rules but if it says fires like a stone thrower id say yes, but if it doesnt have a normal template im not sure

Brother Haephestus
01-09-2011, 20:50
Brother Haephestus this player has only lost 1 game in 2 years and i know thats not due to lack of playing. He has played 24 games most are masacures
The only advantage i have is hes a skaven player using a friends O&G as part of our campain.

Ive been playing the hell cannon like that all along and no was has argued it so far.

I can't argue to the pros or cons of the hell canon - confuses the hell out of me (fires like a stone thrower but isn't ... works like a monster but isn't [stomp??]) etc.) Just that he makes a decisive argument.

I'm not doubting your buddy's capabilities at all, and I am not trying to imply that WoC is just "easy mode". I think O&G are quite good and fun, and in the right hands can perform well. However, nothing in the army can go toe to toe with Chaos without combo support from another unit.

[Using a generic Orc Boy in comparison to a Marauder, the Orc gets +1 Toughness and light armor to a Marauder's +1 WS and +2 Init while costing 2 points more. To tie WS and gain a +1 Str I need to spend an additional 2 pts (Big'uns), and that is for only one unit in the army. If you take great weapons and console yourself to going last in close combat, you will tie the STR of our upgrade to Big'Uns for the first turn (choppas rule), then be +1 for the rest of the combat. We haven't even talked about Chaos Gifts yet, of which I have nothing similar to compete with unless you consider adding a magic standard (20 points more than your gift PLUS the value of the standard itself.)]

When you throw in the randomness of the army as a whole it is difficult to count on that combo. For example, if you take a unit, said unit is always going to perform in accordance to its rules. An Orc unit most likely has to deal with animosity first, and then some sort of random drawback, like movement, etc. Having played Skaven, your friend will be well-used to the self-imploding nature of his force, a trait which the O&G also suffer.

The short of it: Reliability and strength are in your corner.

While I am sure there are people who will swear by O&G, to me personally it is not an army you would go to tournament with and expect to win. You go for a good fight and to have fun, and pray that the dice gods are at least tolerant of you, but you expect to have a hard go of it.

EDIT: Okay - for Doom Diver, the reason it doesn't get the D6 is because it's already listed in the stats. No template, just D6 on the unit(s) the Doomdiver base touches.

LordoftheBrassThrone
02-09-2011, 03:44
Enfeebling Foe reduces the T of a unit by D3 (for example to 1). Leper reduces by a further 1, if it reaches 0, it dies. Enfeebling foe will already have reduced the toughness, so as long as you cast it first, the stat can be lowered from 1. It specifically says in EFs description that THIS SPELL cannot reduce a T below 1, but to 1 is fine. Then knock a further 1 off ;)

TMATK
02-09-2011, 07:08
Enfeebling Foe reduces the T of a unit by D3 (for example to 1). Leper reduces by a further 1, if it reaches 0, it dies. Enfeebling foe will already have reduced the toughness, so as long as you cast it first, the stat can be lowered from 1. It specifically says in EFs description that THIS SPELL cannot reduce a T below 1, but to 1 is fine. Then knock a further 1 off ;)

I disagree, but rather then keep arguing in the OPs tactic thread I posted in the rules forum. http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5751724#post5751724 :)

reddevil18
02-09-2011, 10:16
Ok now there is a thread for the rule, back to tatics :)

Does anyone have any idea on what i should change on my list?
Its near the end of page 1

Enigmatik1
02-09-2011, 18:45
Have you given any thought into bringing the oft-maligned Lore of Slaanesh to the table? I know, Tzeentch is awesome due to Gateway and Pandaemonium, but I can't help but think the LoSlaanesh would be a very unwelcome surprise.