PDA

View Full Version : maneaters vs ironguts! a clear choice?



drear
31-08-2011, 13:34
so i got the new white dwarf, and inside is a sneak preview of the core troops page of the new ogre kingdoms book.

in it, you can see a irongut costs 17.2 goblar and a maneater costs 20 gnoblars.

its a very small difference in cost for a vastly diffrent unit.

so a irongut is asl, great weapon weilding with heavy armour.
a maneater can have xhw, ironfist or a great weapon, and has heavy armour.

a maneater unit can have 2 special rules. including poison, stubborn and vanguard!

now to me it seems very clear that if i am to choose a heavy hitting unit id use maneaters over guts. the price cost is so close, its hardly worth looking to ironguts in a list.

what are your opinions ?

undeadcatd
31-08-2011, 14:15
the price is not so close once you have those equipment(HA , weapons) on Maneater

loveless
31-08-2011, 14:20
I think the categorization of the units comes into play here.

Ironguts are Core, and so count towards your minimum.

Maneaters are Rare, and they are therefore limited. They also eat up points that could be used on big beasties, warmachines, or gorgers (not saying that you'd necessarily want to use those looking at the madness that is the new Maneaters). Or not, GW Online Store :shifty:

I'm thinking that both units are going to find use in lists. Looking at some early list building, I'm not sure Ironguts and Maneaters are even fulfilling the same role - you could outfit a Maneater like an Irongut, but it doesn't seem to be the best use of the unit.

Tzeentch Lover
31-08-2011, 14:24
Once you start adding equipment, the cost gets much higher. Also, Maneaters are Rare to Ironguts Core. So you'd need more core and have less points to go toward Rares(Stonehorns, Thundertusks, Ironblasters, Giants).

I'll admit that Maneaters are a very hard hitting unit, but not really a complete no brainer choice compared to Ironguts.

Far2Casual
31-08-2011, 14:30
Maneaters will be special in the new book sir.

That said, the point is valid. I don't think they're that much in competition with each other, so the comparison is probably not useful. Comparing Bulls and Ironguts is probably more appropriate.

Gaargod
31-08-2011, 14:31
Actually, maneaters are now special choices. I think gorgers are too, but don't quote me on that...

Maneaters aren't necessarily a no brainer choice, but they do have some serious bonuses. +1Ws, +1I, +1A, +1S, +1BS and their funky special rules makes them seriously angry for 20 new gnoblars in cost. Depending on how much their weapons cost (remembering old maneaters could get both heavy armour and great weapons for 10pts, and I doubt it will be much more than that), you're looking at a unit that probably costs about 17pts more than an irongut each.

So if you were taking a unit of 6 maneaters, you could instead have 8 ironguts with a few points spare! I'm not saying maneaters aren't a very, very good choice, but they're not quite automatic. They get more palatable when you consider you're probably fielding a couple of large units of bulls for your core...

loveless
31-08-2011, 14:52
Oops...the website still has them listed under Rare. I didn't have the White Dwarf handy to check *shrugs*

Tzeentch Lover
31-08-2011, 14:53
That's right, I forgot they are special now. Still, not quite an auto-include.

drear
31-08-2011, 15:52
correct, they are special now.

looking at the whitedwarf lists they made up, maneaters work out about 3-4 points for xhw , which i think would be a great choice for them. and reading through the various discussions seem to come with pistols.

the special choices for our army seem to be either lead beltchers or maneaters or yeheetees. so i can see a large amount of special being maneaters. and core being bulls.

i2 with 3-4 attacks and bull charge will make bulls a better option by default imo. light armour and xhw for 12.4 gnoblars
or 3 i1 str 6 for 17.2 gnoblar.

you can feild alot more bulls than ironguts in core, they hit faster, and have more wounds per a unit for less points. and have an option to take ironfists making them cheaper guts, with 2 points less str, but retaining that heavy armour save.

4 maneaters comes in at 225 , with 2 xhw, 1 great weapon and a champion.
4 ironguts comes in at 182 with a champion.
so theres a 40 point diffrence if you upgrade the meaneaters with gw. and the price gap shortens if you take them out and use xhw and no champion, im thinking about 110 for that maneater unit with xhw.

so thats 16 str 5 attacks at i3, or 12 str6 attacks at i1.
and thats just attacks.
those same maneaters also get 2 special rules over the guts. give them stubborn and they wont move. poison and suddenly those high str attacks being lost dont matter at all!

Mercules
31-08-2011, 15:59
Bulls have a place. Ironguts have a place. Maneaters have a place.

Ironguts are good for chopping up hard to wound things or things with high armor saves. I will be including a small unit of them in my upcoming tournament army. Bulls can take a bulky unit and be durable and still kill things. Maneaters can be the Scouts that you can't ignore and so force your opponent to deal with them. I dare them to offer me a denied flank while I have Scouting ME. :)

CrystalSphere
31-08-2011, 20:51
Also, maneaters get 4 attacks each. This means that if you rank them up (say 6 in 3x2) you lose attacks as the max numbers of supporting attacks from the back ranks for ogres is 3 each model. I think they will be useful with axh/pistols and in units no bigger than 5.

Kyte
01-09-2011, 00:14
You sadly can't take different weapons within one unit any more. Otherwise, I could see 6 Maneaters with Scout, either ITP, Stubborn or Poison being almost broken, if combined with AHW or pistols for Rank 1 and GW for Rank 2.

I used a unit of 3 maneaters with Pistols, Scout and ITP in two games last monday against Empire and Bretonnia. ITP really helped a lot against shooting, but I didn't get much out of the pistols. Saving 12 points and AHW will be tried out in my next game, as I think it will be more efficient all over.

People on the internets have been talking about the combo of Poison, Sniper and the flaming banner, but I think this will wear off pretty quickly.

Scout+Stubborn/ITP depending on unit size (with weapon of choice depending on rest of list and local meta) will probably be the way to go IMHO. I don't remember whether ASF and Ambush are options? Those could be quite useful as well. Vanguard/Swiftstride is valid as well, but I'd say Yhetees would fill the pseudo-cavalry role much better at a significantly lower cost. Poison and Stubborn could be golden if used on an Irongut Deathstar as well, but this would be harder to do as Characters do not benefit from maneater special rules.

But all in all, you can't really compare Maneaters to Ironguts. Ironguts are clearly a hammer unit, and in my oppinion one of the hardest core units in the game. A unit of 8-9 with 2-3 characters can be insane, and was already with the previous book rated higher on the OP/Cheese scale than HPAs and Hydras in my group.

I will personally run 9 Ironguts with FC, Tyrant, Slaughtermaster and BSB as a main unit with 3 ITP/Scout Maneaters being more of a supreme support/annoyance.

decker_cky
01-09-2011, 00:19
I think naked maneaters could fulfill the role of ironguts if core allowance isn't an issue. 4 WS4 S5 attacks vs 3 WS3 S6 attacks is pretty comparable, but maneaters quite importantly are less susceptible to dwellers below, pit of shades and purple sun.

Kyte
01-09-2011, 00:44
I think naked maneaters could fulfill the role of ironguts if core allowance isn't an issue. 4 WS4 S5 attacks vs 3 WS3 S6 attacks is pretty comparable, but maneaters quite importantly are less susceptible to dwellers below, pit of shades and purple sun.

Not to Dwellers, although I follow you on the other ones though. Still with the vast Special choice competition, I can't see maneaters being used for this role much, unless you already have an ogre army and want to play an army with the new rules without buying new models. Even then, I see Ironguts as better tanks/hammers. Especially if combined with Trollguts and a Stonehorn/Dragonhide banner for simultaneous strike.

Lord Dan
01-09-2011, 00:47
Does this army book include half-points like the Skaven book? I'm trying to figure out how an Irongut could possibly cost 17.2 gnoblars.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
01-09-2011, 00:58
Does this army book include half-points like the Skaven book? I'm trying to figure out how an Irongut could possibly cost 17.2 gnoblars.

I've been trying to figure it out too, and I think that each Gnoblar must cost 5 Skaven Clanrat Shields. So yes in answer to your original question.

Lord Dan
01-09-2011, 01:03
This Wendy's commercial math is hurting my head. Okay, that makes sense now.

That being the case why use the new cost of Gnoblars to clue people in on the cost of other units from the new book?

EnternalVoid
01-09-2011, 07:41
Not to Dwellers, although I follow you on the other ones though.

Just wanted to point one thing out but yes Maneaters are less susceptible to dwellers as well, due to their S5 rather than S4.

I agree though, they are not auto included and honestly I am not entirely sure how I will want to use them. Really they strike me as the thing that you take to fill a role in your army... when you have already figured out what you want in your army. Reminds me of those little kids toys with all the shapes and you put blocks in, they are a block that can fit in alot of holes.

Vsurma
01-09-2011, 08:30
Not to Dwellers, although I follow you on the other ones though. Still with the vast Special choice competition, I can't see maneaters being used for this role much, unless you already have an ogre army and want to play an army with the new rules without buying new models. Even then, I see Ironguts as better tanks/hammers. Especially if combined with Trollguts and a Stonehorn/Dragonhide banner for simultaneous strike.

Maneaters die on a 6 roll to dwellers while ironguts die on 5+, so you lose twice as many ironguts as maneaters to the spell.

jtrowell
01-09-2011, 09:01
Maneaters can still get equipped with different weapons in the same unit

Vsurma
01-09-2011, 09:19
We seem to be getting info that says they can and that they cannot...

Confirmation would be nice (and clarification what your basing your info on)

If this is indeed the case that you can, I am wondering if it might be worth running a 3 ahw + 3 GW setup would be wise?

Mercules
01-09-2011, 11:33
Apparently some independent stores have received their pre-order goodies early. I've seen the book. You can indeed mix and match weapons.

fruitystu
01-09-2011, 11:37
Me, I'm sticking with my Horde of Ironguts.

Smashy smashy!

warplock
01-09-2011, 12:00
Apparently some independent stores have received their pre-order goodies early. I've seen the book. You can indeed mix and match weapons.

That's brilliant. I was bitterly disappointed when I read that they all had to be equipped the same, and I don't play/won't be playing Ogres. Just the added flexibility mixing and matching gives is going to be great!