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T9nv3
01-09-2011, 18:14
Hi all,

Sorry if this has been covered before, but I'm curious about whether or not lore of metal spells that do damage according to armour save work on scaly skin and natural armour.

My reasoning is that the rulebook says that lore of metal works on armour save....and SS and NA are technically armour saves.

Secondly, one of the examples given is of a heavy armoured hero with shield on barded mount gets wounded on a 2+..... Part of that 2+ save comes from the fact that he is mounted....which is not technically due to any physical "Armour"

Either way, there doesn't seem to be any real conclusive statement as to whether or not this works....Would be nice to use lore of metal to just nuke high T creatures with natural armour saves....

Jolly Puggles
01-09-2011, 18:21
As far as I'm aware, the Lore of Metal is based on Armour Save, regardless of it's source...so Scaly Skin, being mounted, etc. all contribute towards it.

So as non-sensical as it is, a Lizardman mounted on a Cold One is wounded on a 3+ (2+ if he has a Shield) by Lore of Metal spells despite (potentially) having no metal on his person.

T9nv3
01-09-2011, 18:31
Excellent. Thanks for the reply, I think I'll be taking this lore a little more often now.

eron12
02-09-2011, 03:39
That's really the only way that makes sense, otherwise you'd have to further define armor. After all a Wood Elf Hero may just be wearing leather armor, but he'd still wound on a 6.

T10
02-09-2011, 13:24
I'm not going to argue against the rule, but seriously: It makes no sense that a metal-heating spell affects non-metal scales.

-T10

Dux
02-09-2011, 13:30
I'm not going to argue against the rule, but seriously: It makes no sense that a metal-heating spell affects non-metal scales.

-T10

It also makes no sense that the spellpower is increased when mounted.
But thats fluff, and not rules.

warplock
02-09-2011, 13:51
*Jigs around, throwing bits of fluff everywhere*

T10
02-09-2011, 15:17
It also makes no sense that the spellpower is increased when mounted.
But thats fluff, and not rules.

Indeed. But have you never sat on a hot horse?

eron12
02-09-2011, 18:40
Maybe saurus scales conduct heat really well?

musical
02-09-2011, 19:08
Actually I think this makes perfect sense if you understand the theory behind alchemy.

The ancient Greeks believe all substances are made up of combinations of the 4 elements(fire, earth, air, water). So for example all metal are basically some combinations of earth and fire 'atoms' stuck together. This is why it is possible to transmutate lead into gold. Say lead is 80% earth/20% fire and gold is 10% earth/90% fire, you just need to add more fire atoms to lead and/or remove some earth items. This also means when you break down the metal you release the fire and earth atoms and generate heat and ashes.

I think the idea is the spells basically break up or unbind a substance into atoms. So when you break down metal it generate heat which cause damage to the target. Other equivalent armour substances would also contain some fire atoms and be susceptible to the unbinding effect. It may be the spell is designed to target a 'dense' substance so lighter armour will be less affected.

sulla
02-09-2011, 21:29
Indeed. But have you never sat on a hot horse?

Or a hot cold one, or hot etheral steed...

ErrorZero
02-09-2011, 23:36
BRB Pg 75:

"Scaly Skin can be combined with normal armour for even greater protection. To determine a model's combined armour save, take the value of it's scaly skin save and modify it one point better for light armour, one point better for a shield, two points better for heavy armour, and so on."

Metalshifting (Lore Attribute):

"Armour is little defence against against a skilled alchemist - under his command, plates, links and rivets turn molten, searing their wearer. Magicmissles and direct damage spells from this Lore do not have a Strength - their To Wound score is always equal to the unmodified armour save of the target. For example, a model with light armour and shield (for a 5+ save) is wounded on a 5+, whilst a heavily armoured knight, who carries a shield and rides on a barded steed, is wounded on a 2+."

This, to me, says that you only apply armour saves, otherwise what use is Scaly Skin? It does give specific examples, and the rule for Scaly Skin is pretty specific as well. I mean, I'd love to be able to say my Skaven War-Litter (which is probably mostly wood) doesn't count, but it specifies armour save, so it counts.

Anyways, that's my 2p

The bearded one
03-09-2011, 00:09
It's clear cut: The spells take your armoursave as the 'to wound' roll. A scaly skin is an armoursave. The description after all doesn't say you use the armoursave from all metal armour or whatever, it just says armoursave, and scaly skin is part of an armoursave. Some models also often have metal trinkets woven through their scales and magic is never truly clearcut and can be a little crazy and arbitrary, as though it is not a mindless force of nature but can actually logically think of stuff. When there is a storm of magic, suddenly pretty monuments are randomly created and spring up out of the ground? And apparently the winds of magic recognise what swords and axes are and can buff and hex those. Silly winds of magic..

ErrorZero
03-09-2011, 00:45
Yes, but it'sthe unmodified armour save... Scaly skin modifies the armour save

The bearded one
03-09-2011, 00:47
A shield modifies the armoursave too.. :p

as does heavy armour, a mount, a barded mount, light armour, chaos armour, gromril armour, platearmour, magical armour/shields/helmets, and so forth. Ruleswise nothing distinguishes scaly skin from other armoursaves. With 'unmodified armoursave' they mean the armoursave without penalties applied from strenght, magic spells or effects etc. Scaly skin is simply another type of armour and contributes to an armoursave in the same manner that shields, heavy armour etc. would do. Scaly skin exists to give things that don't actually wear armour an armoursave, without it looking a bit odd that it says 'heavy armour' in the profile of some creature without any armour on.

ErrorZero
03-09-2011, 12:58
So you're saying that a Salamander, which is a firebreathing lizard, gets wounded by the melting metal of..... on a 5+..... It only has a Scaly skin save, and as I read it, The rules and the fluff do not support you're interpretation.

To me, there's a reason the developers made specific examples, and made a specific rule for Scaly Skin. I'd love to have an FAQ on it, but the logic test says that Scaly Skin =/= metal armour when it comes to the Lore of Metal.

pililuk
03-09-2011, 13:03
So your also saying that a firebreathing lizard that has developed its internals to create fire would be immune to its skin starting to burn?
Would it then also be immune to a giant fireball hitting it?

Lord Zarkov
03-09-2011, 13:06
So you're saying that a Salamander, which is a firebreathing lizard, gets wounded by the melting metal of..... on a 5+..... It only has a Scaly skin save, and as I read it, The rules and the fluff do not support you're interpretation.
Actually, if you read the scaly skin rule, it grants a base save which is then 'modified' by regular armour.

To determine a model's combined armour save, take the value of it's scaly skin save and modify it one point better for light armour, two points better for heavy armour, and so on.Emphasis mine.

So if you're basing arguments around 'unmodified' then you would only count the scaly skin save and ignore any modification for actual armour. Which is patently ridiculous.

While not supported by the fluff, unfortunately fluff =/= rules, and the rules very much support scaly skin counting towards metalshifting

The bearded one
03-09-2011, 14:36
Fluff =/= rules indeed. Lizardmen shields are made out of animal scales, but those are affected by the lore of metal too, as are wooden shields and leather ones.

Also don't think I don't care about what impact it has on lizardmen, because I play lizardmen too ;)

Chain
03-09-2011, 14:50
Well lore of metal sounds better than Lore of armor

so yeah the desciptions for what is wounding the scaly skin savers is off but you could likely make up your own story for how the wounds would be suffered


Fluff =/= rules indeed. Lizardmen shields are made out of animal scales, but those are affected by the lore of metal too, as are wooden shields and leather ones.

Also don't think I don't care about what impact it has on lizardmen, because I play lizardmen too ;)

not sure about the current edition but Lizardmen had quite a lot of Bronze back in 5'th ed used for shields and weapons

The bearded one
03-09-2011, 14:52
Some shields feature a couple bronze trinkets, but apart from the temple guard, the majority of the shields are without metal.

Chain
03-09-2011, 15:01
The Premitive army went more premitive over the years :P

I wonder which side is more Primitive Sauruses or Beastmen


Some models look far better in the current edition though some i personallly liked way better in the old.

Skinks for instance looked pretty cool to me how they were drawn in the 5'th ed book, while the current ones fit the appearance of a small Lizard better though

ErrorZero
03-09-2011, 18:14
Pililuk, the firebreathing was not the focus of that thought, it was the fact that there is no metal to shift.

Lord Zarkov, I agree that fluff =/= rules, and do I agree that the metalshifting rule could use clarification like "All Armour saves that are the result of equipment" or something like that would be very welcome, I still feel Scaly Skin, as it is not equipped armour, does not apply. I mean, if we really want to, I can say that my Stormvermin are using their halberds and not their shields, and thus are wounded on 5+, but fluffwise, and thus in my opinion rule-wise, the equipment is on them and counts towards metal shifting. In the same vein, fluffwise Scaly kin is not equipment, and thus does not count.

The bearded one
03-09-2011, 18:28
"Their To Wound score is always equal to the unmodified armour save of the target."

Scaly skin is not a 'modification' of the armoursave, in fact the opposite, as you use it as the base and add the bonusses shields, mounts and armour provide on top of that. Fluffwise it might be odd, but heck, that's magic for you. It's random, unpredictable, and sometimes it doesn't just appear to be a force of nature, but have an intelligence of it's own.

It is simple: You take the armoursave. That's the To Wound roll. If Scaly skin doesn't count, I think mounts without barding shouldn't count either. Or a substantial amount of the light armour in the game.

Lord Zarkov
03-09-2011, 20:38
In fairness scaly skin (as a defined rule) would have been fairly trivial to exclude from metalshifting should the designers have wanted. Perhaps it was an oversight, or perhaps deliberate for nebulous 'balance' reasons. Who knows?

What we do have is the rules, and the rules do not give an exception to scaly skin.

With regards to stormvermin and their halberds, there is no option in the rules to 'not use' a shield, models with a weapon with "required two hands" can't use it "alongside [the weapon] in close combat" but there is no exception in the rules to using it on all other occasions. Therefore it counts for metalshifting, fluff does not come into it.

Archis
04-09-2011, 04:25
This is the same as being able to poison undead and war machines. The scaly skin gives you a better armour save and lore of metal is based on your armour save. The guys writing the rules took artistic license with the fluff and naming of things.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

Ravenar
04-09-2011, 07:10
Another similar unit that gets a raw deal here is the Dark Lef Corsairs and their sea monster cloaks. They receive a +2 armor save from shooting/magic, but against metal it just makes them one of the easier Dark Elf models to wound with that lore... oh well.

BEEGfrog
06-09-2011, 02:55
And what happens to units with a scaly skin save when the are buffed by the beasts spell that gives them scaly skin? Does their armour save change?

decker_cky
06-09-2011, 03:36
That's a metal spell. And you just choose the best scaly skin save and use that.

magicmonkey
06-09-2011, 07:24
the mount is affectedb as its horse shoes or lizard shoes get hot and it panics and falls over. saurus are affeccted becuase their scales contain trace metals?

Lord Zarkov
06-09-2011, 09:06
I guess you could get quite nasty burns from the stirrups, and the horse from it's bit - could explain the mounted bonus counting

b4z
09-09-2011, 13:14
Alchemy is actually just the transformation of matter, it doesn't have to involve metals, contrary to the Lore name.

Wood Elves... Treeman and Treekin... Lore of Metal: Searing Doom.... Hahaha

Wounding Treeman on 3+, No Armour Save, No Ward Save, Double The Wounds :D

My friend [who plays Wood Elves] and I had a lovely fluff argument about how Lore of Metal can possibly affect Wood ;)

Tregar
09-09-2011, 13:22
Clearly the Metal wizards spent so much time fighting against dinosaurs and treemen that they developed ways of turning wood into metal, so they could heat it up :D

timmytool
09-09-2011, 13:51
clearly the metal mages first learn to melt metal my magically igniting wood or animal fat.

Toshiro
09-09-2011, 14:20
I reckon this whole thing would go a lot smoother if they'd just named the lore 'lore of alchemy' instead, oh well...

Korraz
09-09-2011, 14:49
Alchemy is actually just the transformation of matter, it doesn't have to involve metals, contrary to the Lore name.

Wood Elves... Treeman and Treekin... Lore of Metal: Searing Doom.... Hahaha

Wounding Treeman on 3+, No Armour Save, No Ward Save, Double The Wounds :D

My friend [who plays Wood Elves] and I had a lovely fluff argument about how Lore of Metal can possibly affect Wood ;)

1.: Fling metal dust into the air
2.: Redirect it to the enemy
3.: Kill it with fire.

warplock
09-09-2011, 15:00
Too much iron in your blood... *grins*

:evilgrin: