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Dr Bannana
01-09-2011, 20:27
After a long break from fantasy, i have decided to return to the game. I've always liked the HE minis, so i made this list. Feel free to tear it apart if you so wish :D

Core - 625

30 Spearmen
Command

15 Archers

15 Archers

Special - 1055

17 White Lions
Command
Standard of Discipline

19 Phoenix Guard
Command
Banner of Sorcery

14 Swordmasters
Command
Banner of the Eternal Flame

White Lion Chariot

Rare - 300

2 Bolt Throwers

2 Eagles

Characters - 518

BSB Noble (goes in PG)
Great Weapon
Armour of Caledor
Guardian Phoenix

Lv4 Life Archmage (goes in WL)
Silver Wand
Forliath's robe
Talisman of Saphery

Total - 2498

Archmage aims for the buff spells of the lore of life, throne of vines and regrowth. (gives WLs a regen save, adds to Swordmasters' toughness)

RBTs are for whittling down/killing things that i dont want to engage in combat.

Archers are to knock some numbers off units/deal with fast cav/etc.

Spears hold a flank.

PG are to hold the centre of the line,

WLs deal with high T/AS enemies.

Swordmasters as a shock damage unit.

I am aware that i have gone quite light on characters in order to afford more bodies. Was this a good/bad descision?

What can i change/improve? :)

Mace1982
01-09-2011, 20:36
Its not a bad list at all few tweaks and it will be rocking, you want to use the PG as your mage bunker, drop the sword masters take a lvl 2 and then some more wl's put the bsb with the white lions and pump em up with life, take high magic on your level 2 and get what you need off on your level 4 then drain magic to deny your opponets phase, but then again my playstyle is different to yours in a 2400 list i run 20 ellyrian reavers :p

Dr Bannana
01-09-2011, 21:19
Changes I have made:

Dropped SM

added 5 WL

added:
Lv2 Mage - High Magic (goes in the PG)
Jewel of Dusk
Crown of Command

swap Banner of Discipline for flame banner on the WL.

NOW LD9 THROUGHOUT THE ARMY (but stubborn on the PG.)

I have decided to leave the archmage in the WL, for the simple reason of 4+ regen saves (with Throne of Vines)

I am beginning to wonder whether i should swap SM in for the WL, as with earthblood, flesh to stone and shield of saphery all posibly in effect they'd be quite a resilient unit. Then again, an Archmage in a main combat block may not be the best idea (though he does have FR +ToS combo)...

grhino
02-09-2011, 09:44
I'd go for swordmasters over WLs in this list. Likes the first one as well, with all those units in one army. One level four can do quite a bit, since you are less dependant on the nr. on mages for the effectiveness of you phase in the 8th e.d., although more mages is a hefty points investment and a few poor magic winds can ruin your battle! SMs, on the other hand, are quite reliable if they get to grips with the enemy...

Gramolarian
02-09-2011, 09:59
IŽd get rid off sword master for all. They are the worse pick of the book in this edition. only use for them is in single rank of 6 without any command for protecting the bolt throwers. 6 rank deep unit of phoenix guard is great for protecting mages. and 3x10 white lions works miracles for bruising the opponent. Also ditch the archers and spearmen and take all in lothern sea guard.

D'Haran
02-09-2011, 14:45
Ah the endless debate between SM's and WL's, they're both decent choices especially if you're buffing the until with life and high magic so take whatever you want mate. As for the list it's very tactical and I like it, though I'd make 3 units out of the archers so they all get to fire and you have another deployment option.

Dr Bannana
02-09-2011, 19:16
Thank you for your replies. I am currently refining the list, i think i may go with the white lions as they have more save vs shooting and can more easily bring down high t/as enemies. As for the archers, i have no idea why i didn't put them in 3 units in the first place, it seems obvious now you say it...

Anyway, elite infantry choices:
WLs: 4+(3+)/4+, +1S
SMs: 5+/4+, +1A
this assumes that earthblood is in effect. IMO, 1 strength is worth more than 1 attack as you only get 1 attack for the supporting attacks.

Morax
02-09-2011, 19:16
Ah the endless debate between SM's and WL's, they're both decent choices especially if you're buffing the until with life and high magic so take whatever you want mate. As for the list it's very tactical and I like it, though I'd make 3 units out of the archers so they all get to fire and you have another deployment option.

+1. Don't listen to all the neigh sayers that attack the poor swordmasters. They are your hardest hitting unit with a reasonable point cost. Like every other elf they are fragile but your plan easily deals with that.

I am assuming you are trying to stay away from Teclis. he makes going character light and relying on the magic phase a lot easier but he can be a bit of a crutch. Staying away from him will also give you some brownie points with your opponents which is never a bad thing. If you were looking at this in a strickly competitive light take teclis and drop the archmage+one bolt thrower to pay for him.

I'd also either split the archer units into three or I'd drop 10 of the archers to get more spearmen. Or you could drop the spears and a unit of archers for lotheren sea guard. All of those would be better options for your core. Spearmen need to be bigger because in lists like this they get overlooked for buffs as you want your special units getting them instead. A few more bodies can make up for the fact they they are mere elves. The lotheren sea guard would give you a unit of spears that can kill a bit without being in combat and that's never a bad thing.

I've never been a fan of chariots in an elf list as the only unit they would need to support is likely to die in droves (talking about spearmen here). I'd drop the chariot for more bodies of...well any of the special choices would be good options. More swordmasters to bring them up to 3 ranks of 7 would work well for example.

Dr Bannana
02-09-2011, 19:18
we posted at virtually exactly the same time :D, so now off for some more thinking time, i can see what youre saying about the chariot. I am definately trying to stay away from Teclis, my ground rule is that if i would find it 'unfair' to be facing something, it doesnt go in my army list. Simple. NB: unfair does not mean hard to beat!

Nixon2802
03-09-2011, 08:42
I would say that instead of the Guardian Phoenix on your Noble, give him Dawnstone. Re-rollable 2+ Armour is better vs any attacks up to Str 7 or 8, according to maths hammer. Other than that looks good

thesheriff
03-09-2011, 08:58
I would say that instead of the Guardian Phoenix on your Noble, give him Dawnstone. Re-rollable 2+ Armour is better vs any attacks up to Str 7 or 8, according to maths hammer. Other than that looks good

Unless he fails his cannon look out sir, gets magic sniped, or a character runs up to him who ignores armoursaves. I run dawnstone because in my local meta, I rarely face these problems. But, I can see GP being more usful in most situations.

List looks good otherwise. I prefer my White lions 7x2 personally. But, that's not that important.

thesheriff

Dr Bannana
03-09-2011, 11:22
I have ammended the list:

Core: same, archers in 3 units of 10.

Characters: same

Rare: same

Special:

20 SM (7x3, archmage)
Command
Banner of Discipline

20 WL (7x3, 1 off the back)
Command
Banner of Eternal Flame
Ironcurse Icon


19 PG (5x4, BSB)
Command
Banner of Sorcery

The reason for the archmage in the SM is that the stuff WL are likely to be facing have flaming attacks (hydras, etc.) which would remove regeneration.

Richmt11
03-09-2011, 11:31
How come your tossing up between putting mage in WL or SM?

Why not just stick him in PG. They are the most resiliant unit, hence why you put the all important BoS in there im guessing.

Mirbeau
03-09-2011, 11:53
My army is near identical to yours so I feel I can offer some general advice.

In terms of your elite infantry, I'd advise rather than a small unit of each, pick two of the three, and have one unit at quite an impressive size, with the smaller supporting. Even with regrowth/buffs, deaths will happen, spells won't get through and your force needs a durable unit capable of holding things together, taking on monsters (or anything that is thrown at them) and doing more killing than the spears!

If you were thinking of putting your lvl 4 in one of these units at their current size, I'd worry about being chased down after a bad round of combat with the lack of numbers.
Really, I'd be more inclined to put him, and the bsb in the spears, advancing behind the the main combat units in a supporting role, no matter the size of your main combat units, even the bsb's abilities make him worth it if he doesn't see combat, and he rarely should.

In terms of the bolt throwers, I'm mixed. I've just got rid of a lvl2 death to make room for them in the force, and so far he seems the more destructive really. 3 mages is rather excessive mind!

Finally well done on being a High Elves player and not always taking Teclis or the book, without games are more... interesting?!

Dr Bannana
03-09-2011, 12:22
There are almost as many opinions as options! the reason i wasnt putting the mage in the PG is that they can't benefit from earthblood as they have their ward save. I shall have yet another thinking session, and get back to you. I also keep forgetting that 20-man units are now considered small :).

MATHHAMMER WARNING
Also, the SM have static 3 cres, against units that are BIG with 5 cres. Lets assume the big unit has a warbanner therefore cres 6.
this means that the SM must make three kills more than the enemy to equalise the score (very easy if they are average troops).
If there is a large unit of good quality troops, and they break even on kills, thats still rerollable Ld 7. 75% chance of success.
In the worst circumstances, i can use my eagles as cres generators (charge in the rear, +3)
END OF MATHAMMER

My point is, the SM will very rarely break.

PS, there's not much we can do against those bad rounds of combat you speak of, unless we become ultraconservative players. :(

Forsworn
04-09-2011, 02:59
Core - 625

30 Spearmen
Command
A good block. Put them in 5 ranks of six, and the odds are definitely in your favor in a combat.

15 Archers

15 Archers
Take 5 from each unit and make a third. More deployments and more options in the battle.

Special - 1055

17 White Lions
Command
Standard of Discipline
These guys do not need extra Ld. Banner of Arcane protection gives them a good magic defense (which, with their 4+ against range, gives them a good chance of getting suck in). Last detail: There are too few of them. Try to find a way to pump up your numbers or they won't be effective in combat.

19 Phoenix Guard
Command
Banner of Sorcery
The reason you want these guys is as an anvil. They need more numbers (at least 24+Character, preferably 30). One good tactic, for me, is to make a large block of these guys to hold an opponent, then use a 25 men block of spearmen as a hammer (using Mindrazor).

14 Swordmasters
Command
Banner of the Eternal Flame
Add more, or take off some of them. Swordmasters are best used as a large hammer, or a small support unit. Five of them with a master give you a good challenge monkey, and a DAMN good unit to change a combat's outcome. My suggestion: replace 4 swordmasters with 4 phoenix guard, and split the unit into 2 five man squads, hiding behind your anvil (either one).

White Lion Chariot
Amazing on the charge, but it is only going to be useful as a flanking unit. Do not expect this guy to win any combats (except against other chariots), but rather turn them in your favor.

Rare - 300

2 Bolt Throwers

2 Eagles
I'd recommend to drop the eagles. They are good, from what I hear. Your lsit, however, does not have synergy with them. They can give you an advantage, but those extra 100 points could go to other places and help A LOT.
Characters - 518

BSB Noble (goes in PG)
Great Weapon
Armour of Caledor
Guardian Phoenix
The setup I usually have on my BSB (when he's on foot). The Ward save is invaluable when you fight "ignore armor" or very high strength enemies (I often used to in my meta).

Lv4 Life Archmage (goes in WL)
Silver Wand
Forliath's robe
Talisman of Saphery
This guy should NEVER be fighting magical weapons or taking attacks from them. Take down the talisman of saphery.

Total - 2498

All right, here's how I'd do it:
Core: As is. It's pretty good. though honestly, I'd take the Flaming banner. It is VERY useful when you fight Regen units.
Rare:
Your list seems to focus on wearing down the enemy with ranged attacks, so I'd drop the eagles and use your own shooting to help against your enemies. I admit, I haven't used eagles before, so I may be talking out my behind here.
Characters:
Drop the talisman of saphery on the archmage. Those extra 35 points are more bodies to use. One recommendation is to switch to Shadow as your lore. Withering gives a BIG advantage against enemies when shooting (I've received this from DE, so I know what I'm talking about), and Enfeebling Foe can do wonders on your melee survivability. Miasma can help enemies stay outside of melee range so that you can keep pummeling them, and Mindrazor makes your elves killing machines.
Put the BSB in with your Lions, while the Archmage goes with the Phoenix Guard.
Special:
The Block of Phoenix Guard should be larger, I believe. Reinforce the Lions as well. The last suggestion would be to switch out the Lion Chariot (OR the Sword Masters) for reinforcements and either Ellyrians or Shadow warriors. Those will give you warmachine hunting ability, and allow you to buff either your hammers or one of your anvils.

Tactics:
Use the Phoenix Guard and Spearmen as your anvils, while the Swordmasters and Lions function as hammers. If you keep the Lion Chariot (and it IS good to gain advantage in combats), add it to your hammers. This would give you 3 small hammers (Chariot, Swordmasters), and one BIG hammer (Lions).

Shadow will give you the advantage of more killing power. If you can, fit in a level two with Shield of Saphery and Curse of Arrow Attraction. The combination of The Withering and Curse of Arrow Attraction will make your shooting VERY powerful. Giving your Spear elves (or Lions) Shield of Saphery will improve their odds of survival greatly.

Dr Bannana
04-09-2011, 18:49
Your post is a perfect example of why i should edit my original post rather than updating it in subsequent posts... sorry :shifty:

thesheriff
04-09-2011, 21:48
He said to drop the eagles. Don't do that. They couldn't be more synergetic with your list. There your only warmachine hunters. They are too essential to let go for some extra ablative wounds on units that are well sized as they are tbh.

And, don't change the swordsmasters. 14 is the best number for them IMO.

Dr Bannana
05-09-2011, 06:46
2 eagles is, what, 7 elite infantry models. More than 7 will die to stone throwers. 2 eagles are worth less than any of my characters. Cannons can character snipe. Eagles when called upon can also add 3 to combat res without any kills. Eagles can also deal with skirmishers, fastcav, etc. IMO, eagles are AWESOME. Never leave Ulthuan without at least 2.
as for what youve said about magic, i suppose ill just playtest the list and see what works for me.

Mace1982
07-09-2011, 15:58
Ok just want to say after some serious testing more than one eagle is wasteful, you should be able to deal with what you need with one eagle, a decent list would look something like this

Lvl 4 anulian crystal, silver wand, ring of fury (high magic)

Lvl 2 seerstaff shadow magic

Prince reaver bow

Bsb noble seafarerbow

20 spears full cmd

20 archers full cmd

10 archers

10 archers

3 rbts

1. Eagle

28 sword masters or whitenlions with banner of sorcery

9 sword masters

Then some extra magic items like ring of rhuin, ironcurse etc till you get 2400 :-)

remrem
07-09-2011, 16:19
@Mace1982:
The Anulian crystal and the silver wand, aren't they both arcane items. You may only have one of them, am i right?

Mace1982
07-09-2011, 16:38
Yes they are my bad was just using up spare points, well you can knock those ten points off and use them on the swordmaster champion or something, oh and do not use the damn banner of eternal flame what a crock of ****