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Erikjust
04-09-2011, 19:30
Okay another what if.
As we all know all the loyalist chapters doesnīt have their primarchs anymore they are either dead or have disappeared. But what if that hadnīt happened what if Lion el Johnson hadnīt hesitated in the final moment in the battle against Luthor and had killed him on the spot, Jaghatai Khan arrived in time to prevent the abductions of his people from the Dark Eldar, reinforcements arrived in time to save Rogal Dorns life onboard the chaos ship etc.

Even if all that had happened would the Primarchs eventually have left or at least gone into the background and didnīt have any direct involvement with their chapters anymore.

I think they might have, especially when we look at some of the actions taken by some of the remaining that didnīt die or disappear (unwillingly).
Leman Russ didnīt have to leave his wolves, he might just have assigned the 13th chapter to go after the thousand sons and remained on Fenris to lead his chapter.
Corax sure his actions was grim, but necessary, and as far as I have read nobody in his chapter or amongst his fellow Primarchs blamed him for what he did, and yet he still choose to go into exile.
Vulcan well it's hard to say why he disappeared we only know that he did.

All this lead me to the reason that if the loyalist Primarchs either didnīt die or disappear the way they did they would eventually have retread from the spotlight and leave the Imperium to stand on its own legs.

But what do you think would the primarchs have remained with their chapters "to this very day" lading them in battle or would they have left under all circumstances?

FlashGordon
04-09-2011, 19:34
They would have stayed and fought as the champions of humanity. I do not think much would have changed.

Xisor
04-09-2011, 20:29
@FlashGordon: Well, except that, obviously, at least three of them seem to out-and-out abandon their posts (Vulkan, Russ, Corax)*. Another one did so recklessly indeed (the Khan). Dorn started going a bit bonkers/reckless too, it seems.

* I'm wholly convinced that saying "I must leave now, my people need me"/you-don't-need-me-anymore really cuts it.

Bizarrely, it seems that it's those who died who actually stayed with their chapters! The Lion's Legion still fights in a highly convoluted (and highly successful) manner, just as an array of 'The Unforgiven' chapters rather than a Legion. The Blood Angels almost all still live with Sanguinius' ongoing input, so to speak. And Ferrus Manus, well, okay, my theory falls apart here because post-Ferrus Iron Hands seem to have went thoroughly bonkers compared to their (seemingly sedate) earlier selves. But then Ferrus was a bit of a rough-hewn cookie too. Who knows, really.

I think, once Guilliman's Codex was instantiated, the need for the Primarchs massively declined. Once you've got Inquisitors running around and Chapters organised properly, the Primarchs become, ultimately, 'really good Calgars'. Handy on a battlefield here or there, but unfortunately Abaddon/Erebus/Typhon seem to be right: once a few tweaks had been made, more Astartes could do the remaining job much better than few Primarchs.)

Freak Ona Leash
04-09-2011, 20:47
Indeed. And understand, the Primarchs themselves may have been massively divisive figures. They were simultaneously symbols of the Imperium's golden age and its darkest hour. While they are revered as demi-gods now, it remains evident that it is far easier to revere a being who has been dead for 10,000 years than it is to revere one whom still draws breath. A 10,000 year old Primarch is a legend: a demi-god, known to no one as the mortal beings they truly were, with all of mortality's quirks and foibles. A living Primarch is still impressive in the extreme, but...well, it is easier to find fault with a living, breathing creature than it is with a milennia-old memory of one.

And while it is true that the Legions were broken up, do you really think that any of the Imperial Fist successors would've hesitated to support Dorn against some jumped-up Lord Militant or Ecclesiarch? You think Calgar and his court of Ultramarine successors may be borderline heresy? Imagine if Gulliman was still around! 2/3's of the current Astartes population would owe at least nominal fealty to him as their collective gene-father.

Add on to this the almost-certain misgivings the Primarchs would have over the growth of the Ecclesiarchy that deifies their father (and kinda sorta proves Horus right...) and governs so much of the Imperium. Had the Primarchs survived, the Imperium would be far different. It may not even exist at all.

Erikjust
04-09-2011, 21:11
Add on to this the almost-certain misgivings the Primarchs would have over the growth of the Ecclesiarchy that deifies their father (and kinda sorta proves Horus right...) and governs so much of the Imperium. Had the Primarchs survived, the Imperium would be far different. It may not even exist at all.

Maybe that was one of the reasons why Corax, Vulcan, Khan and Leman left the final nail in the coffin so to speak.

They saw the early signs of what the Imperium was becoming and knew that they where powerless to change it in anyway without sparking another HUGE revolt just like Horus had.

So rather then staying in an Imperium they wouldnīt agree with they choose to leave it while they still had the choice of doing so.

Freak Ona Leash
04-09-2011, 22:21
Maybe that was one of the reasons why Corax, Vulcan, Khan and Leman left the final nail in the coffin so to speak.

They saw the early signs of what the Imperium was becoming and knew that they where powerless to change it in anyway without sparking another HUGE revolt just like Horus had.

So rather then staying in an Imperium they wouldnīt agree with they choose to leave it while they still had the choice of doing so.

I'm sure for some of them, it was part of it. Corax I believe left right after the Scouring or Heresy or something, an act which is implied to have been at least slightly suicidal in intent due to extreme guilt at what he saw as the ruin of his Legion.

For Russ and Vulkan (especially Vulkan) I can see how the Imperium's increasing divergence from its days under the living Emperor could've impacted their decision to leave. I don't know much of Khan to be honest.

I believe it is implied that Dorn, who was the longest-lived Loyalist Primarch if I recall correctly, was incredibly dissatisfied by the Imperium after the Scouring as he lived long enough to see the Ecclesiarchy gain considerable power and even to see himself become semi-deified. It is seen that he was incredibly distraught as early as the Heresy over the Imperium's slide towards despotism and outright tyranny in the face of adversity rather than sticking to the noble ideals it began with.

Baron Spikey
04-09-2011, 23:57
I believe it is implied that Dorn, who was the longest-lived Loyalist Primarch if I recall correctly, was incredibly dissatisfied by the Imperium after the Scouring as he lived long enough to see the Ecclesiarchy gain considerable power and even to see himself become semi-deified. It is seen that he was incredibly distraught as early as the Heresy over the Imperium's slide towards despotism and outright tyranny in the face of adversity rather than sticking to the noble ideals it began with.

3rd longest-lived, both The Khan and Guilliman outlived him (Khan was still around 70yrs after the HH and Guillman 100).

Xisor
05-09-2011, 00:54
I'm not sure about that, Baron Spike.

It's said Vulkan eventually disappeared 1000 yeas after the Salamanders' founding. So he's 'back' after the Heresy, but in quite what form isn't clear. (E.g. he might abandon the Salamanders early on, perhaps never properly returning to them themselves post-Isstvan, but still be active in the Galaxy at large for many years afterwards. Though that sounds a bit odd, it's possible, given how little we know and how uncertain/contradictory it is.)

The Khan, Dorn and Guilliman certainly seem to stay with their chapters the longest. Corax disappears very promptly. Khan doesn't disappear/abandon so much as 'chase off with a sizeable force into the Webway' and is merely never seen again.

Guilliman, as we know, gets stabbed (though potentially accounts for Alpharius in the meantime, prior to meeting Fulgrim.

My rough picture of it was the progression of disappearance went a bit like this:
Corax>{Russ, Guilliman and Khan in unknown order}>Dorn>Vulkan.

But, with everything else said about Vulkan, Vulkan might have kept 'disappearing', only to reappear a little time later. Then disappear again. It was only after 1000 years of that, he stays disappeared?

It's not clear, but it should be interesting to see explored!

flota
05-09-2011, 01:04
we simply dont know...

Stormfather
05-09-2011, 06:26
As far as I can tell...



+ Ferrus Manus died in the Dropsite Massacre on Istvaan V, which occurred ~013.M31.

+ Sanguinius died immediately after the Siege of Terra, which occurred in 014.M31.

+ El'Jonson died during the Great Scouring, most likely between 014.M31 and 021.M31 (No exact date found, but we know the dates of concurrent events).

+ Vulkan went MIA during the Dropsite Massacre (013.M31) but it seems he survived, hung around for a while, and then disappeared at an unknown date. I don't have IA 3, which might give details as to when he finally dropped off the radar for good. He objected to the Second Founding, which happened in 021.M31, so any time after that, he may have outlasted Khan, Russ, Corax, and Dorn for all I know. Anyone with IA3 likely knows more.

+ Jagetai Khan disappeared into the webway 70 years after the Horus Heresy, therefore ~084.M31 (Index Astartes I, p44).

+ Leman Russ departed in 211.M31 (Space Wolves 5e, courtesy of Lexicanum, as I don't own the book).

+ Guilliman was killed by Fulgrim 220 years after the Horus Heresy, or so I've been told by someone with a copy of Index Astartes 3. So this puts Guilliman's 'death' in ~224.M31.

+ Corax disappeared right before Dorn's death in 427 ("Soon after the disappearance of Corax, ... [Dorn Dies]", Index Astartes II, p. 15). I'm surprised he made it that long, all things considered, and until I read that just now I assumed Corax took off immediately after the Second Founding. Anyway, since we know the year Dorn died, we can go ahead and peg Corax at ~420.M31, although that number is pretty variable depending on your definition of 'soon'.

+ Rogal Dorn died in 427.M31, over 400 years after the end of the Horus Heresy (Ian Watson's Space Marine, courtesy of Lexicanum as I don't own the book).





Also, IA 2 mentions that Dorn was 'one of' the last Primarchs, not necessarily the last. However, everyone else is already accounted for, save Vulkan. Thus, there's a chance that Vulkan was still around in 427.M31.

- - -

To answer the question, I think most/all of them would have left eventually, the idolization and worship was too far removed from what they stood for, and the Imperium's backslide into ignorance and superstition likely too much for them. They would have left, gotten themselves killed in combat (IA2 implies that Dorn knew what he was getting into on the Sword of Sacrilege), or else eventually rebelled against an Imperium gone mad.

Erikjust
05-09-2011, 10:37
or else eventually rebelled against an Imperium gone mad.

And in the end i think thats why many of them chose the fate they did. They knew that if they started to rebel against things they didnīt like they would become exactly like Horus something none of them wanted.

Also there was the tactical part of it another rebellion would shatter the IoM as this time it wouldnīt just be them against the Imperium, but them against the Imperium and all of them against the traitor legion who wouldnīt be late in exploiting any turmoil within the Imperium to finish what Horus started.

No then rather leave the IoM and stay away rather then be lead down a path that would eventually lead to rebellion against the very thing they and the Emperor held so dear.

AndrewGPaul
05-09-2011, 10:51
As far as I can tell...



+ Ferrus Manus died in the Dropsite Massacre on Istvaan V, which occurred ~013.M31.

+ Sanguinius died immediately after the Siege of Terra, which occurred in 014.M31.

Nitpick - isn't there seven years or so between Istvaan and Earth?

Tastyfish
05-09-2011, 14:18
Vulkan seems like he's the last active primarch, as He'Stan's background suggests that Vulkan disappeared 7000 and something years ago (sometime in M33-M34).

However at this point he seems to have abandoned his chapter to hide his artefacts, so 7000 years ago would presumably just be the last confirmed sighting. More interestingly, this actually lines up roughly with the start of the Time of Twin Empires (the Nova Terra Interregnum) and several of these artefacts have been found in the possession of 'traitor humans'. Nova Terra also appears to be closer to the original idea of the Imperium, opposing the more religious leadership based on Earth which eventually wins out. "Even the grandest prize prize being nothing is seized without challenge" could easily the official line to cover up the fact that for some reason Vulkan has had a falling out with his Chapter and doesn't think they are worthy of these gifts - or perhaps even that the gifts themselves are not the point of the quest, but the locations and the understanding of why they are there is the important thing Vulkan wanted his sons to understand (which fits very much with Vulkan and the Salamander's philosophy of self reliance and personal responsibility). The Salamanders at the end of the Forging Era have lost their way, as has the Imperium as a whole, so Vulkan leaves a trail of clues and items for his sons to follow which will eventually lead them to understand the choice he made (and perhaps even to him, if the last gift is a stasis pod similar to Roboutes).

Alternatively he might have left on the intergalatic mission with an exiled rogue Grand Admiral, which is also going on at around the same sort of time period.

Either way, his disappearance lines up almost exactly with the end of the Golden Age of the Imperium (coincidently known as the Forging).

Idaan
05-09-2011, 15:35
As already mentioned, they were growing increasingly dissatisfied with the Imperium. In IF's Index Astartes, p15 it says:


Rogal Dorn outlived many of his brother Primarchs and each loss saddened him greatly. Also, as fewer Primarchs remained, each began to attract unhealthy respect. With the Emperor on Terra, some distant systems began to deify the Primarchs they encountered. To Dorn, only the Emperor was worthy of this attention and he feared the consequences. However, sacrifice came easily to Dorn.

While this was written in 3rd edition, it's even more believable nowadays, with the revelation that the Imperial Truth was staunchly atheistic in the beginning. It's easy to imagine Primarchs being sickened by the deification of one who sought to end all deities. The history of the Ecclesiarchy in one of the WDs mentions that it was in 350.M32 that the Temple of the Saviour Emperor became the official religion of the Imperium - less than a millennium after Dorn's death, and it was probably widespread even before that.

All Cing Eye
05-09-2011, 15:49
Vulkan seems like he's the last active primarch, as He'Stan's background suggests that Vulkan disappeared 7000 and something years ago (sometime in M33-M34).

However at this point he seems to have abandoned his chapter to hide his artefacts, so 7000 years ago would presumably just be the last confirmed sighting. More interestingly, this actually lines up roughly with the start of the Time of Twin Empires (the Nova Terra Interregnum) and several of these artefacts have been found in the possession of 'traitor humans'. Nova Terra also appears to be closer to the original idea of the Imperium, opposing the more religious leadership based on Earth which eventually wins out. "Even the grandest prize prize being nothing is seized without challenge" could easily the official line to cover up the fact that for some reason Vulkan has had a falling out with his Chapter and doesn't think they are worthy of these gifts - or perhaps even that the gifts themselves are not the point of the quest, but the locations and the understanding of why they are there is the important thing Vulkan wanted his sons to understand (which fits very much with Vulkan and the Salamander's philosophy of self reliance and personal responsibility). The Salamanders at the end of the Forging Era have lost their way, as has the Imperium as a whole, so Vulkan leaves a trail of clues and items for his sons to follow which will eventually lead them to understand the choice he made (and perhaps even to him, if the last gift is a stasis pod similar to Roboutes)

I seriously hope this is the direction they go with Vulkan's disappearance. Right now it's just so confusing some sources say he disappeared after being blasted on Istvaan. Others show him objecting to the 2nd founding, and hanging around much later.

Londinium
05-09-2011, 16:25
Nitpick - isn't there seven years or so between Istvaan and Earth?

In new continuity yeah, old continuity was always a bit fuzzy about it which is why the BL authors keep trying to bash us over the head with the fact there was seven years between Istvaan and Terra. Age of Darkness being an integral part of fleshing out the 'middle years'. So yeah seven years between the two. I hope in the far distant future once the HH series is over and we're into the inevitable Scouring series, they release a couple of sourcebooks, one for the Great Crusade and one for the Heresy with concrete dates, featured campaigns blah blah blah. Like the IA books but more detailed. Not that I think they will because BL hasn't put out some interesting geeky sourcebooks in ages.

Stormfather
05-09-2011, 17:38
Nitpick - isn't there seven years or so between Istvaan and Earth?


In new continuity yeah, old continuity was always a bit fuzzy about it which is why the BL authors keep trying to bash us over the head with the fact there was seven years between Istvaan and Terra. Age of Darkness being an integral part of fleshing out the 'middle years'. So yeah seven years between the two. I hope in the far distant future once the HH series is over and we're into the inevitable Scouring series, they release a couple of sourcebooks, one for the Great Crusade and one for the Heresy with concrete dates, featured campaigns blah blah blah. Like the IA books but more detailed. Not that I think they will because BL hasn't put out some interesting geeky sourcebooks in ages.

As the poster of the above timeline and a huge fan of overly detailed sourcebooks, I must say, I'd be the first in line to get my hands on that book. Thanks for clearing up the 7 year thing, I figured it was some sort of old fluff/new fluff discrepancy but didn't know enough to comment.

Baron Spikey
06-09-2011, 18:16
As far as I can tell...



+ Ferrus Manus died in the Dropsite Massacre on Istvaan V, which occurred ~013.M31.

+ Sanguinius died immediately after the Siege of Terra, which occurred in 014.M31.
Nope there was a 7 year gap between the Dropsite Massacre and the Siege of Terra.


+ El'Jonson died during the Great Scouring, most likely between 014.M31 and 021.M31 (No exact date found, but we know the dates of concurrent events). Well he didn't die, in fact he's the only Loyalist Primarch we know is still alive.



+ Vulkan went MIA during the Dropsite Massacre (013.M31) but it seems he survived, hung around for a while, and then disappeared at an unknown date. I don't have IA 3, which might give details as to when he finally dropped off the radar for good. He objected to the Second Founding, which happened in 021.M31, so any time after that, he may have outlasted Khan, Russ, Corax, and Dorn for all I know. Anyone with IA3 likely knows more. Of course the breakup of the Legions couldn't have occurred in 021.M31 (due to both the Heresy and Scouring being fought over at last 7 years each) and since Vulkan was known to be around to for that but not for anything else...



+ Jagetai Khan disappeared into the webway 70 years after the Horus Heresy, therefore ~084.M31 (Index Astartes I, p44).

+ Leman Russ departed in 211.M31 (Space Wolves 5e, courtesy of Lexicanum, as I don't own the book). Lexicanum pulls it's usual fan-fic lies, Russ left shortly after the Legion break-up. No date is mentioned in the Codex.


+ Guilliman was killed by Fulgrim 220 years after the Horus Heresy, or so I've been told by someone with a copy of Index Astartes 3. So this puts Guilliman's 'death' in ~224.M31. He was killed 100 years after the break-up of the Legions.



+ Corax disappeared right before Dorn's death in 427 ("Soon after the disappearance of Corax, ... [Dorn Dies]", Index Astartes II, p. 15). I'm surprised he made it that long, all things considered, and until I read that just now I assumed Corax took off immediately after the Second Founding. Anyway, since we know the year Dorn died, we can go ahead and peg Corax at ~420.M31, although that number is pretty variable depending on your definition of 'soon'. Corax leaves roughly 1 year after the break-up of the Legions, ala Index Astartes (of course it could be slightly longer as IA states he left a year after the break up of the Legions and the reinstatement of Imperial Rule).


+ Rogal Dorn died in 427.M31, over 400 years after the end of the Horus Heresy (Ian Watson's Space Marine, courtesy of Lexicanum as I don't own the book).I haven't read the book but Index Astartes is a newer source of canon and states that Dorn died shortly after Corax left (the IA article suggests that the Legion break-up took up to 20 years to achieve)

To be honest your data is too flawed to be drawing the concrete conclusions you present.

Stormfather
06-09-2011, 20:11
Nope there was a 7 year gap between the Dropsite Massacre and the Siege of Terra.

AndrewGPaul and Londinium brought this up as well. This 7 year gap is a newer development, the dates I wrote were pulled from IA 1 and 2.


Well he didn't die, in fact he's the only Loyalist Primarch we know is still alive.

You are correct, El'Jonson is not technically dead (nor is Guilliman). I wrote 'dead/died' out of sloppiness.


Of course the breakup of the Legions couldn't have occurred in 021.M31 (due to both the Heresy and Scouring being fought over at last 7 years each) and since Vulkan was known to be around to for that but not for anything else...

IA established it in 021, newer fluff additions (Horus Heresy) will likely render that date unfeasibleand will push it back. I got the impression from IA that it occurred during the scourging, not after- for instance, the Imperial Fists, who'd initially rejected the idea, split up into chapters immediately after the Iron Cage, a major scourging battle. It's likely the Ultramarines were already split, or in the process of splitting, or planning to split, before the Iron Cage, and therefore during the Scourging. However, it's very likely that BL will delay the second founding well past 021.


Lexicanum pulls it's usual fan-fic lies, Russ left shortly after the Legion break-up. No date is mentioned in the Codex.

Thank you for checking. As said in my initial post, I didn't have the book on hand. IA includes the quote (or some variation thereof) but has no date, either. It seems that the 13th chapter's blind crusade into the Eye of Terror would be a logical endcap for the Scourging, but I have no dates or material that supports that. I'm getting the impression you have the complete IA series; is there anything in there on it?


He was killed 100 years after the break-up of the Legions.

Is this from IA3 or another source? IA3 is the only IA I don't have and have been unable to pin down an official quote.


Corax leaves roughly 1 year after the break-up of the Legions, ala Index Astartes (of course it could be slightly longer as IA states he left a year after the break up of the Legions and the reinstatement of Imperial Rule).

Also from IA3?


I haven't read the book but Index Astartes is a newer source of canon and states that Dorn died shortly after Corax left (the IA article suggests that the Legion break-up took up to 20 years to achieve)

That's the article I used when I made the assumption that Corax survived so long; it was from IA 2. If IA3 indeed says that Corax left immediately after the second founding, then it's evident that the IA conflicts with Watson's Space Marine. IA 2 is a newer publication and more in line with the modern fluff.


To be honest your data is too flawed to be drawing the concrete conclusions you present.

I never intended for my conclusions to be seen as concrete. I prefaced them with 'as far as I can tell...' and ended them with an appeal for those with more information to contribute what they know. You've filled in a lot of gaps; perhaps you or someone else can combine the information into a more current timeline that can cite all four IAs and therefore avoid the ambiguous/old sources I had to fall back on (namely Lexicanum's Space Wolves issue, and Ian Watson's very outdated Space Marine)?

The Devourer
06-09-2011, 20:58
IMO there disappearances would have been inevitable. In then end they would all have left and I doubt any would have made it to the current time.

The Imperium was changing. The post HH IoM wasn't the emperor's imperium and the primarchs had no place in it. The IoM is the opposite of what the emperor wanted and the primarchs would have hated it. It was the emperor's greatest work and they respect him too much to interferre with it but if they stay they have to watch normal humans corrupt the imperium he died for.

They needed the emperor. The loyal primarchs relied on his guidance. They controled massive armies but they always had the emperor's plan to follow. Without his orders they would begin to have doubts. The man they idolised was dead and they were left unprepared to deal with life without him- Corax is a great example of a primarch going of the tracks. The emperor kept the primarchs united and since they each embody a seperate feature they need to work together to function.

They were proud and very active in the defense of humanity. This combined with their importance to the IoM would have drawn them to the biggest most important battles and made them targets for the toughest enemies. If they didn't leave would have either died in heroic last stands or led suicidal missions and disappeared.

Askil the Undecided
07-09-2011, 09:08
I want you to think about this for a minute.

You take a handful of extremely capable nigh-immortal overconfident superhuman warriors and send them out into the galaxy to fight unceasingly to conquer or annihilate everyone they find for around three hundred years.

The chances are that eventually they will either die or go missing when one of the chances that their lives as warriors require they take turns out to be one too many.

TheLaughingGod
07-09-2011, 09:57
I think its much simpler than anyone has stated. They were brothers. A family, a strange one but a family and they waged war on the enemies of mankind until they turned on each other. Their own father was slain, Horus was slain, Gyilleman, the Lion, Sanguineous, Mannus and eventually even Dorn were slain as well. You lose your entire family in a war against your own flesh and blood, all direction and guidance is taken from you and all certainty about who a you are. The galaxy you fought to bring peace to falls into infighting and politics, your legions are divided up into shadows of themselves.

Its too much for even a Primarch. I submit they left because they couldn't bear staying. Every world has a statue of your beloved father and brothers, all dead. Your living brothers names become foul curses and you still cannot believe they would betray you all so completely. Every day in the Imperium is a reminder of what you've lost. It became too much and they left.

Londinium
07-09-2011, 15:03
I believe that there was still a place for the Primarchs in the post Heresy Imperium but they would have had to adapt to the new situation. They'd become military commanders, wise elder statesmen but they wouldn't have half the power they used to possess and would have to be ok with taking orders from humans. For some with a certain nature like Guilliman or Corax, they probably could have coped with this. Others like Russ are never going to stand for it. In the modern Imperium there's definitely no place for them.

I don't think there's anything particularly inevitable about their disappearances other than setting up 'King Arthur' like stories where they'll return in the future when the Imperium most needs them. That being said I very much agree with TheLaughingGod's interpretation aswell.

Bold_or_Stupid
07-09-2011, 19:23
Am I write in thinking that every Dead Loyalist Primarch died at the hands of Traitor Primarchs or marines?

All Cing Eye
07-09-2011, 20:15
Yep no Primarch died at the hands of a xenos. Also who else is going to go toe to toe with one.

Gulliman = stabbed by Fulgrim
Ferrus Manus = decapitated by Fulgrim
Sanguinius = strangled by Horus
Dorn = killed in the 1st Black Crusade

Rest all went missing.

Baron Spikey
07-09-2011, 20:37
IA established it in 021, newer fluff additions (Horus Heresy) will likely render that date unfeasibleand will push it back. I got the impression from IA that it occurred during the scourging, not after- for instance, the Imperial Fists, who'd initially rejected the idea, split up into chapters immediately after the Iron Cage, a major scourging battle. It's likely the Ultramarines were already split, or in the process of splitting, or planning to split, before the Iron Cage, and therefore during the Scourging. However, it's very likely that BL will delay the second founding well past 021.
During the Scouring the Ultramarines as a Legion were the main bulwarks of the Imperium, after the Scouring the Codex was universally implemented (or at least the Scouring as a defined event- as we know the Traitor Legions are around to this day so it's difficult to nail down a certain event that signalled the end of the Scouring).




Thank you for checking. As said in my initial post, I didn't have the book on hand. IA includes the quote (or some variation thereof) but has no date, either. It seems that the 13th chapter's blind crusade into the Eye of Terror would be a logical endcap for the Scourging, but I have no dates or material that supports that. I'm getting the impression you have the complete IA series; is there anything in there on it?I do indeed.
It's contradictory at best, as with everything regarding Russ and the SW, with 1 passage saying the 13th Company hounded Magnus after he fled Prospero and another saying Russ unleashed them against the Traitor Legions after the Siege of Terra (both passages in the same article I hasten to add).




Is this from IA3 or another source? IA3 is the only IA I don't have and have been unable to pin down an official quote
It is indeed, it states that Guilliman lead his Chapter for a further 100 years after his Legion was broken up.




Also from IA3?
Yup.
To be completely accurate it states that he locked himself away in a tower on Deliverance for a year (after his Legion had been broken up into Chapters and the rule of the Imperium was reestablished, which adds weight to your supposition that the Legion break-up occured in the latter part of the Scouring)[/QUOTE]

For a true timeline we really need a concrete date for the very 1st Black Crusade (unlikely to be Abaddon's 1st Black Crusade which is an important difference) because until then the dates of the disappearance/death of Dorn/The Khan/Guilliman are very much fluid. Suffice to say those 3 Primarchs are the last surviving ones we know of, and we know for definite that Guilliman outlasted The Khan- excluding the anomaly that is Vulkan.

Xisor
07-09-2011, 21:45
Gulliman = stabbed by Fulgrim
Ferrus Manus = decapitated by Fulgrim
Sanguinius = strangled by Horus
Dorn = killed in the 1st Black Crusade



And, for the record, the traitors went:
Horus = annihilated by the Emperor
Haunter/Kurze = executed by M'shen
Alpharius = allegedly killed by Guilliman (NB: The alleged is fair here, IMO.)

MajorWesJanson
07-09-2011, 23:06
Sort of a tangent, but assuming that all the primarchs who survived the Heresy stayed and served in the imperium, what roles would they play?

Guilliman is easy, he would act as essentially Regent for the Imperium.
Dorn as Warmaster makes sense.
Vulkan as intermediary between the Imperium and AdMech? Ferrus Manus would have done well here, but he died.
The Lion and Leman Russ both seem like the type to be crusaders, rooting out Chaos.
Corax is a bit trickier. Maybe Master of Assassins?
Khan is also tricky. Maybe put him in charge of the Imperial Navy?

sabreu
07-09-2011, 23:32
Didn't the Khan head into the webway and disappeared? Wouldn't he must likely have been killed by Dark Eldar, Harlequins, or what not? Would that not be the first and only primarch to be felled by a non-primarch or astartes?

Scalebug
08-09-2011, 00:19
Yep, and fairly recently after the siege of Terra, I'd say. He went home, discovered Dark Eldar had kidnapped a fair chunk of his homeworlds population, did not approve, and went after them. (index astartes article).

I'd put it not too long after the end of the Heresy, simply because if they had hunted the Dark Eldar for hundreds of years, it would have been worth mentioning.

A lot of things mesh poorly when you cross reference them... such as Dorn dying shortly after Corax disapearance. Corax left after having put down his poor freak-clones, seems like something he would have done shortly after the war, not keeping them around for centuries before one day going "sorry boys, this is simply not working..."

Londinium
08-09-2011, 00:57
Sort of a tangent, but assuming that all the primarchs who survived the Heresy stayed and served in the imperium, what roles would they play?

Guilliman is easy, he would act as essentially Regent for the Imperium.
Dorn as Warmaster makes sense.
Vulkan as intermediary between the Imperium and AdMech? Ferrus Manus would have done well here, but he died.
The Lion and Leman Russ both seem like the type to be crusaders, rooting out Chaos.
Corax is a bit trickier. Maybe Master of Assassins?
Khan is also tricky. Maybe put him in charge of the Imperial Navy?

I don't think the position of Warmaster would have lasted much past the scouring, far too powerful a position to exist in the new Imperium. I think Dorn/Corax/Khan would possibly have been given the overall command of Imperial forces in a segmentum each, acting as the intermediary between the High Lords and the various forces in each segmentum as an interim measure. The Lion and Russ would possibly have been assigned to chase down any rumours of traitor activity like you said.

Some of these things may well have happened in the current timeline, as we really don't know much of what happened post Terra and the transition to the modern set up was gradual. Even stripped down to the command of just a chapter, the Primarchs were still powerful power brokers immediately after Terra and some stuck around for a good deal of time before going off on their jaunts. We definitely know that Guilliman, Russia and Dorn did, Vulkan did according to some background, Khan and Corax may have. The only one that definitely didn't was The Lion. So they had to have played some role in the reforms and also the governance/military set up of the Imperium Secundus during it's early years.

Baron Spikey
08-09-2011, 18:23
Yep, and fairly recently after the siege of Terra, I'd say. He went home, discovered Dark Eldar had kidnapped a fair chunk of his homeworlds population, did not approve, and went after them. (index astartes article).

I'd put it not too long after the end of the Heresy, simply because if they had hunted the Dark Eldar for hundreds of years, it would have been worth mentioning.

A lot of things mesh poorly when you cross reference them... such as Dorn dying shortly after Corax disapearance. Corax left after having put down his poor freak-clones, seems like something he would have done shortly after the war, not keeping them around for centuries before one day going "sorry boys, this is simply not working..."

He disappeared 70 years after the Scouring (ala Index Astartes).

Requiet
08-09-2011, 22:05
I still hold on to the boyish hope that its some kind of conspiracy on the side of good. Failing emperor knows that he won't be able to do anything until the time is right with such a failing body, maybe along the lines of the chaos god rebirth scenario or something, and he's marshaling his exiles and injured from the aether until the time is right to unmake or salvage what has been wrought.

Just my silly little hope.

Erikjust
09-09-2011, 01:52
I still hold on to the boyish hope that its some kind of conspiracy on the side of good. Failing emperor knows that he won't be able to do anything until the time is right with such a failing body, maybe along the lines of the chaos god rebirth scenario or something, and he's marshaling his exiles and injured from the aether until the time is right to unmake or salvage what has been wrought.

Just my silly little hope.

If your hoping for the emperors return to his body he has to have learned some SERIOUS necromancy.
The Emperor body is more or less a mummified body with only a few living cells in it.
So if he is to come back its more likely to happen in some new vessel of some sort or another i would refer to the star child theory except GW has basically written that one out of the official continuity.

ODINM4
09-09-2011, 05:52
A lot of things mesh poorly when you cross reference them... such as Dorn dying shortly after Corax disapearance. Corax left after having put down his poor freak-clones, seems like something he would have done shortly after the war, not keeping them around for centuries before one day going "sorry boys, this is simply not working..."[/QUOTE]

during the scouring from index astartes iv saga of the weregeld
warriors in black armour their shoulder guards emblazoned with a white raven arrive and hurd the clone freaks into the iron warrior defences,witnessed by the space wolves.

so if corax did put down the rest of these freaks it nust have been sometime afterthe scouring

eleveninches
09-09-2011, 07:58
some of them are still alive

Johnson -MIA- sleeping in the rock
Fulgrim -posessed by Daemon
Perturabo - Daemon Prince
Jaghatai Khan - MIA - webway
Leman Russ - MIA - Eye of Terror
Rogal Dorn - KIA
Konrad Kurze - assumed KIA
Sanguinius - KIA
Ferrus Mannus - KIA
Angron - Daemon Prince
Roboute Guilleman - WIA
Mortarion - Daemon Prince
Magnus the Red - Daemon Prince
Horus - KIA
Lorgar - Daemon Prince
Corax - MIA
Vulkan - MIA
Alpherius - KIA
Omegon - MIA

so only 5 are confirmed killed.

logan054
09-09-2011, 10:05
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Rogal_Dorn

Have they changed the fluff for Dorn or something, I thought originally they only recovered a hand and the body was never recovered, also with Alpharius and Omegon no actually knows which one died..

eleveninches
09-09-2011, 10:49
i remember that they only found dorn's hand, but the internet seems to disagree

eleveninches
09-09-2011, 10:50
so only
Ferrus
Kurze
Sanguinius
Horus
Dorn
Alpherius OR Omegon

are dead (and we dont know for sure about kurze)

Idaan
09-09-2011, 11:23
They found his remains, and then made a reliquary of his hand (you know, they're Imperial FISTS). The two facts are stated separately in Index Astartes. And earlier on it says explicitly that Rogal Dorn wanted to sacrifice himself and succeeded.

logan054
09-09-2011, 11:24
with Alpharius and Omegon I believe its actually no one is sure that either or them died and that even if one died which one it was, as with Curze the kill is never confirmed


The vid-log then shows M'Shen leaping forward, although the kill was never confirmed, as the video feed cuts out right before they fight. It is believed that Night Haunter allowed himself to be killed: he saw himself as a murderous and corrupt villain, the very thing he sought to destroy. Regardless, his final words are considered one of the great enigmas to the Imperium's history.

*edit*

whoops didn't see the last part in your post, anyways the only ones we know are dead for sure are:

Ferrus
Sanguinius
Horus

I personally don't think Curze is dead, I imagine it was a plan to make everyone think he was dead, if want to die and you want people to know you die then why did the recording cut out before the fight, its not like the assassin turned it off.

melgorth
09-09-2011, 11:28
I'm fairly certain that Curze's death has been confirmed, going by the account of it in the book Soul Hunter in any case.

Xisor
09-09-2011, 12:08
I'm fairly certain that Curze's death has been confirmed, going by the account of it in the book Soul Hunter in any case.

Indeed. The premise of a ton of BLP stories involve Nights Lords who were there when he died. Sure, we know they're not the most reliable legion, but they're also not the ones most amenable to secretive conspiracy either.

Baron Spikey
09-09-2011, 20:01
Curze is definitely dead, as is Dorn (in Deathwatch: Rites of Battle it even adds that it was the IF Chief Librarian that found his body and carried it from the Chaos ship in a scene similar to Dorn finding the Emperor).

The only account we have of Alpharius' death turned out to be provided by an Alpha Legion operative and was never confirmed by the Ultramarines themselves.

pyrosocial
10-09-2011, 03:54
Theoretically, the primarchs for the II and XI may be alive, and its unknown where their loyalties are, or if they chapters are still breathing.

I think Dorn didn't really care anymore after the heresy, he blamed himself for the emperor's death and sent himself and his chapter on a suicide mission against the iron warriors choas fortress.

Lion seemed to have great loyalty to the emperor, and I beilve that if he wasn't in stasis, then he would be gone, hunting down all of the fallen. (Or impaled the adeptas terra on his blade for what has become of the imperium)

If i'm correct, isn't Ultra-boy dead too? And in a stasis shine on Macragge?

Compel
10-09-2011, 11:07
He's 'not quite dead' - Basically, he was put into stasis immediately before the poison could off him.

I've never heard anybody doubting that Kruze is dead at all, before. His death, and manner of death, is essentially what defined his character.

logan054
10-09-2011, 12:03
You haven't, the original way it was done was pretty much he seems dead but its never actually confirmed, if they decided to change it then so be it, kinda ruins the fluff abit and takes away from the original myth and legend style. Mind you I do rely on lexicanum abit much these days as most the fluff I have is from 2nd ed or over the top matt ward junk.

pyrosocial
10-09-2011, 14:24
Well he would pretty much stay that way then right? As soon as the turn off the stasis field, he would die from the poison...

Freak Ona Leash
10-09-2011, 16:27
You haven't, the original way it was done was pretty much he seems dead but its never actually confirmed, if they decided to change it then so be it, kinda ruins the fluff abit and takes away from the original myth and legend style. Mind you I do rely on lexicanum abit much these days as most the fluff I have is from 2nd ed or over the top matt ward junk.

It has been confirmed that Konrad Curze died. M'Shen took his head (along with the Corona Nox) with her after she killed him. Apothecary Talos of 10th Company pursued her and killed her, First Captain Zso Sahaal took the Corona Nox (but was then lost to the warp.)

Londinium
10-09-2011, 16:41
You haven't, the original way it was done was pretty much he seems dead but its never actually confirmed, if they decided to change it then so be it, kinda ruins the fluff abit and takes away from the original myth and legend style. Mind you I do rely on lexicanum abit much these days as most the fluff I have is from 2nd ed or over the top matt ward junk.

I don't really think it ruins the background. The whole point of the Night Haunter's death is his vindication, if he somehow managed to survive but continued to let the Imperium believe that he was dead then that just undermines his whole argument. I know why the mystery was put in, it's pretty much standard 40k, but to have had him survive would have been stupid. That's why I wasn't fussed when Soul Hunter confirmed him as dead.

logan054
10-09-2011, 17:37
I get the whole point of his death, it still wasn't required to be written, its really why I am not so keen on horus heresy books, they are just going to answer to many questions which I didn't really need answered. At the end of the day the Primarchs are figured of legend, their final fate should be left open for debate (when possible).

Still I am curious how a apothcary actually kills a highly trained assassin and does a jack the ripper on her...

FabricatorGeneralMike
10-09-2011, 20:51
I get the whole point of his death, it still wasn't required to be written, its really why I am not so keen on horus heresy books, they are just going to answer to many questions which I didn't really need answered. At the end of the day the Primarchs are figured of legend, their final fate should be left open for debate (when possible).

Still I am curious how a apothcary actually kills a highly trained assassin and does a jack the ripper on her...

Curious? He's the most BadAss Apothcary thats ever lived...next to Fabius Bile ;)

Honestly, he's the Soul Hunter, he alone disobeyed his Father and persued M'Shen after his Father's Vindication.

Plus it's been confirmed in the Audio Drama Throne of Lies The Night Lords attack a Assassin fortress and find the vox recording of M'Shen herself.

Xisor
10-09-2011, 21:14
Curious? He's the most BadAss Apothcary thats ever lived...next to Fabius Bile ;)

Honestly, he's the Soul Hunter, he alone disobeyed his Father and persued M'Shen after his Father's Vindication.

Plus it's been confirmed in the Audio Drama Throne of Lies The Night Lords attack a Assassin fortress and find the vox recording of M'Shen herself.

More than that.

Vandred/The Exalted reminisces on the precise sequence of events.

As it is, I should note that Throne of Lies is one of the most compelling audios I've listened to. Really, excellent stuff. Can't wait for Butcher's Nails.

logan054
10-09-2011, 21:27
Curious? He's the most BadAss Apothcary thats ever lived...next to Fabius Bile ;)

You know I might have believed it till you said next to Fabius Bile :p

Wyrmwood
11-09-2011, 01:09
You know I might have believed it till you said next to Fabius Bile :p
What? Just because a man wears a sleeveless trenchcoat and walks around with a diamond studded cane, doesn't mean he can't be badass as well as fabulous.

logan054
11-09-2011, 09:41
I have to say he's neither fabulous nor bad ass, maybe abit pimped at best :p

Tamereth
12-09-2011, 21:36
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Rogal_Dorn

Have they changed the fluff for Dorn or something, I thought originally they only recovered a hand and the body was never recovered, also with Alpharius and Omegon no actually knows which one died..

I confused by this too. I'm 90% sure that they found his broken armour and one hand.
The old index astartes article from WD 259 simply states;
"they boarded the sword of sacrilege before it could flee and recovered what remained of dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in statis."

While not the original hand and broken armour story it doesn't go as far as to stress that his whole body was found.

Tamereth
12-09-2011, 21:46
Back on topic, i think them leaving was the best thing. As stated by others i don't think any of them really approved of what the imperium became after the emperor took his seat on the golden throne.

The only possible outcome of this would have been some sort of civil war between the astartes and regular human religous types.

Wyrmwood
12-09-2011, 23:06
I have to say he's neither fabulous nor bad ass, maybe abit pimped at best :p
He learned much from the Dark Eldar. ;)

logan054
13-09-2011, 21:15
I confused by this too. I'm 90% sure that they found his broken armour and one hand.
The old index astartes article from WD 259 simply states;
"they boarded the sword of sacrilege before it could flee and recovered what remained of dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in statis."

While not the original hand and broken armour story it doesn't go as far as to stress that his whole body was found.

From memory and talking as a kid (2nd ed days) I remember it being they only found his hand, i certainly remember wondering if he was actually dead, captured all sulking about with a hand missing. I do think this is the problem with the BL stuff now, I guess to many people need definitive answers. My only conclusion is that bit on lexi is try and not invalidate both versions of the fluff.


He learned much from the Dark Eldar. ;)

How to look silly in power armour :p

Erikjust
14-09-2011, 05:26
Dorn isnīt the only controversy Corax has a bit too.

In the first Horus heresy that covered the drop site massacre its said that he was badly wounded and was almost immediately airlifted away as the other loyalist made their escape.

HOWEVER both in the Ravens flight audiodrama and in the story about Corax in Age of Darkness.

They make it seem as if he runs around down their at least a week or two perfectly fine (except for his jump pack being shoot to pieces) playing Hitman with the traitor forces.

When finally a ship from his chapter does come and rescue him he is fine enough to go onto the bridge of the ship.

So what is it? Was Corax mortally wounded on Istvaan 5 or wasnīt he?

And speaking of Ravenīs Flight i think we are given another important clue as to why the primarchs might have left their chapter anyways.

As Corax leaves the planet he wonders Will they the people of the IoM ever trust them again after this?
This hints to me that Corax thought that even should they win over Horus the IoM might never trust them again and might demand them being exiled or put under strict control (even more so then now) and he wouldnīt want to be a part of that.

Precentor
17-09-2011, 02:43
Lexicanum pulls it's usual fan-fic lies, Russ left shortly after the Legion break-up. No date is mentioned in the Codex.



Not true page 21 of the 5E Space Wolf codex states he disappeared "in the year 197 after the Emperor was entombed within the Golden Throne"