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musical
05-09-2011, 09:51
Ok so I think there are some confusion over how these 2 rules interact. Originally I felt they don't combine but then change my mine after reading the 1.5 rulebook FAQ. However I think the rules are still ambiguous and open to argument so best to discuss with opponent before a game.

Here is how I understand it:

My will be done give your unmodified WS to a unit (say WS6 for a Tomb King).

Fencer's blades says the bearer have WS10 (ie it replace whatever WS they have in the first place).

FAQ says in the case of Fencer's Baldes the bearer ALWAYS have WS10 unlike say +2S/+2A with magic weapons. Therefore the bearer's WS is not modified but replaced. A bit like Arkhan the black can case spells as Lv5 Wizard as long as he has the Liber Mortis (even if he lose a level).

Therefore my TK confers WS10 to a unit he is with.

Do you agree with the above?

Yrrdead
05-09-2011, 09:56
No I don't agree.

You will always pass WS6/5 onto your unit.

While the Fencer's Blades certainly do grant WS10 always. I'm pretty sure that they are also a modifier to said WS. In which case the WS10 wouldn't qualify as unmodified. But that's me.

Poncho160
05-09-2011, 09:56
I would have to agree yes.

Keith_Lupton
05-09-2011, 09:58
This has been covered so many times on Warseer and also TK of Khemri site also. Its in dire need of a FAQ from GW to clarify where is stands.
To give your King or Prince fencers blades IS to modify his WS. There are convincing arguments from both sides to be made. Its just one of those rules that doesnt make entire sense.
Myself i would have to say no as to give him WS10 IS to modify his WS, therefore MWBD is only 5 or 6 depending on character.

Yrrdead
05-09-2011, 10:09
Just to clarify the FAQ in question appeared in version 1.3 not 1.5


Q: When does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic give that bonus?(p4)
A: Most weapons, including magic weapons, state when the bonus is given. For example, a model with the Fencer's Blades will always have Weapon Skill 10 whilst a model with a great weapon will only have +2 Strength when striking an enemy in close combat. When a weapon does not say when the characteristic bonus applies, then it only applies when striking, or being struck, in close combat.

Also note that this FAQ is concerned with the timing of when you apply bonuses.

I'm not sure how that is involved in the modified/unmodified debate.

Loopstah
05-09-2011, 10:21
They say the Fencers Blades gives a bonus in the FAQ, in my opinion a bonus means a positive modifier, so you wouldn't pass on WS10.

Keith_Lupton
05-09-2011, 10:25
Just to clarify the FAQ in question appeared in version 1.3 not 1.5



Also note that this FAQ is concerned with the timing of when you apply bonuses.

I'm not sure how that is involved in the modified/unmodified debate.

So according to that FAQ the ony time a Kings or Princes Fencers blades bonus applies is when he is directly struck himself or involved in combat.
Good find, Yrrdead.

Nedar
05-09-2011, 13:38
Dunno the exact wording on MWBD, but the vampire FAQ allows the helm to pass on Fencer's Blades weapon skill to units. So that could perhaps set a precident? Too lazy to look up all the wordings though :\

Mid'ean
05-09-2011, 18:31
Nope. No precidence. MWBD states unmodified WS. Helm has no such ruling.

shakedown47
05-09-2011, 19:49
Ok so I think there are some confusion over how these 2 rules interact. Originally I felt they don't combine but then change my mine after reading the 1.5 rulebook FAQ. However I think the rules are still ambiguous and open to argument so best to discuss with opponent before a game.

Here is how I understand it:

My will be done give your unmodified WS to a unit (say WS6 for a Tomb King).

Fencer's blades says the bearer have WS10 (ie it replace whatever WS they have in the first place).

FAQ says in the case of Fencer's Baldes the bearer ALWAYS have WS10 unlike say +2S/+2A with magic weapons. Therefore the bearer's WS is not modified but replaced. A bit like Arkhan the black can case spells as Lv5 Wizard as long as he has the Liber Mortis (even if he lose a level).

Therefore my TK confers WS10 to a unit he is with.

Do you agree with the above?

As long as you agree that your TK will be WS 0 after I cast Vaul's Unmaking on the Fencer's Blades, sure.

Yrrdead
05-09-2011, 20:16
So according to that FAQ the ony time a Kings or Princes Fencers blades bonus applies is when he is directly struck himself or involved in combat.
Good find, Yrrdead.

No. I suggest that you reread the FAQ that I quoted because it is the exact opposite of what you said.

Harwammer
06-09-2011, 10:47
I'm pretty sure that they are also a modifier to said WS. In which case the WS10 wouldn't qualify as unmodified.
to give him WS10 IS to modify his WS
They say the Fencers Blades gives a bonus in the FAQ, in my opinion a bonus means a positive modifier, so you wouldn't pass on WS10. A problem with warhammer is modifiers are only ever defined in relation to dice rolls rather than stats (as far as I can see). A bit of a fail on the brb side I'm afraid.

Using the same principles as the modifying dice rolls rules a modifier (for stats) would be noted as a value plus or minus a number (eg WS + 2). I feel switching one value for another (e.g all 6s rolled count as 1s or change ws to 10) would fall under another (undefined?) term.

Unfortunately all of this is conjecture proves nothing. What's really needed is an appendix or FAQ defining modifiers in terms of stats. In the meantime I'm going to err on the side of caution by treating 'unmodified' stats to be the value written on the model's (or unit's) profile(s). Note this is slightly in contention with the 'unmodified Ld' FAQ but I believe that FAQ was referring to the unmodified Ld of a unit NOT an individual model.

In summary I wouldn't combo Fencer's Blades and My Will Be Done as there is no clear definition of stat modifiers.

Althwen
07-09-2011, 09:49
Fencer's Blades' description sure sounds like a modifier to me. And because MWBD says 'unmodified WS' I find no ambiguity on the subject. The unit gets WS 5/6, the character gets WS 10.

AnomalyOfAwesome
07-09-2011, 10:18
I'm going to vote as no, only because Holy Terrifying possibilities Batman! Without having my books in front of me, I'm gonna have to learn towards unmodified is what is printed in the army book.

Jack of Blades
07-09-2011, 10:23
The TK has WS10. The unit uses the character's unmodified WS, which is 10. Therefor the unit gets WS10. Remove the Fencer's Blades and it's 6. Cast Miasma on them and it'll still be 10.

The Helm of Commandment is similar and it rules that you do get the bonus. I see reason why someone would be concerned with having WS10 Ushabti or whatever but that's the way I see it.

Lord Zarkov
07-09-2011, 10:49
The Helm of Commandment is similar and it rules that you do get the bonus. I see reason why someone would be concerned with having WS10 Ushabti or whatever but that's the way I see it.
The Helm of Commandment is similar, but (explicitly with the FAQ) sends over whatever modified WS the Vampire has at the time (so a Vampire Lord at -3 WS sends over WS4), which is a clear difference from MWBD which explicitly sends over the unmodified WS.