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lovedinplaster
07-09-2011, 01:19
So.. Slaves are half as much.. And stormvermin can actually kill plus have a magic banner. So other than a bunker.. And a way to field extra weapons teams.. Why wouldnt you just run slaves and stormvermin instead? Even a 20 man strong stormvermin is better than 30 clanrats..

canucklhead
07-09-2011, 01:43
This is the eternal fluff vs game argument.

In pure game effective terms, you are likely correct. But a skaven army is hordes of clanrats, charging behind worthless slaves, and backed up by elite stormvermin, at least in the most basic terms.

it comes down to why you build a skaven army. are they "the winners", or do you love your verminous horde of mutant freaks?

TheDrugLordX
07-09-2011, 06:45
Well you pretty much covered it yourself. They're a more reliable bunker for you characters, and they allow you to field extra weapon teams, yet they are cheaper than stormvermin!

In my current list I run 3x40 slaves, 1x40 clanrats with warpfire thrower and 1x stormvermin with warpfire thrower.

Sure, I could swap the clanrats for twice more, or maybe even 3 times, as many slaves (actually I can't since it's ETC restriktions, but anyway), however, then I wouldn't have a more fordible bunker for my seer on bell, and I would loose the opportunity to take that warpfire thrower, which I think would help me better in this case rather than more slaves.

Instead, I could swap them for a half sized unit of stormvermin, but this unit would be insufficient to keep the bell rolling.

They are the middlething of slaves and stormvermin, but none the less they still have their uses. It all narrows down to what your list is in need of.

Jolly Puggles
07-09-2011, 06:54
I'm a long-time Skaven player and one of Fluffs' most ardent supporters. As such, most of my army is Clanrats, as it should be...some 200+ models, give or take. I used to be happy about this, but the more games I play (it seems) the less impressed I am with their performance. You can get twice as many Slaves (for equal points) with very little reduction in performance...Clanrats and Slaves both hit and wound most opponents on 4+ and they can both have Spears and/or Shields. The biggest difference between them is the fact that Clanrats can have a Standard Bearer. This would be more significant if Clanrats, even if it was just one unit in the army, could have a Magic Banner, but they can't. As such, you're forced to both take a BSB and put him with Clanrats instead of Stormvermin if you want what should be your mainstay unit to have a decent chance of winning a combat.

Having said that, Slaves vs. Clanrats isn't so gloomy...Clanrats are a lot tougher to shift than Slaves (especially against common infantry) and can contribute a much more effective presence in multiple combat support, under which circumstances Slaves become a liability to your Combat Res.

The Stormvermin issue is much more pronounced though. The way things are right now, Clanrats and Stormvermin have their roles reversed. Stormvermin should be the smaller "elite" unit supporting the bulk of the Clanrats. With Stormvermin so cheap and Clanrats so ineffective, though, it's better to have a large 'bulk' unit of Stormvermin with flanking support from smaller Clanrat units.

snottlebocket
07-09-2011, 07:22
Don't forget that skaven are quite unique in that you can get all the tools you need to win... and still have points left over to bulk your army out with 100+ infantry models.

You can easily get your grey seer, your abominations, whatever other elite tools you want and have points left over to seriously outnumber your opponent.

My regular opponent runs an army with two large clanrat units, a large storm vermin unit, two slave units... that quite often never see combat. His abomination, doomwheel, grey seer and warlocks are perfectly capable of winning battles before the infantry ever needs to commit. (admittedly when they fluff their dice it's not that hard to just roll up the army, just doesn't happen that often)

russellmoo
07-09-2011, 18:58
You could ask: Why not just take slaves?

You only need that one unit of clanrats to push a bell, plus 2 HPA's, and 2 WLC's

This leaves you with 1500 pts of slaves in a 3000pt list, this means 750 slaves, or 10 units of 75-

Ignoring the financial cost- a list like this would be interesting to play once, however, in theory it is the way to go if playing skaven- your opponent could not kill all of your army- even half would present a real challenge-

The point is Skaven players don't need to worry about taking the most point effective build-

You take clanrats because weapon teams are fun, plus they take up more points than slaves which is actually necessary at some level given that you want your army to be playable in a decent time frame-

Tactically- I think you are also overlooking the great synergy between 5x10 slave units, with smaller 5x6 clanrat units with weapon teams- the clanrats can either join in against the enemy, or the weapon team can just let loose into the unit fighting the slaves, with its flank protected by the clanrats

lovedinplaster
08-09-2011, 02:06
I've just been unimpressed with my clanrats. They give up just as much combat res as my slaves and normally don't out wound them either.

Maybe I am playing them wrong.. With NO stormvermin as my front running regiment.. I'm supporting weakish units.. With more weakish units. Although I do run 3 weapons teams.. Doomwheel. 2 cannons. Engineer, grey seer, and Killy warlord. Once the opponent gets into my half of the field.. It's generally a roll and my clanrats flop. 35 strong. 40 strong units with assassin support and character support for leadership boost

BlackPawl
08-09-2011, 11:10
35 or 40 strong units (of clanrats) are not "strong"!

Even my empire buddy takes two 40+ units of swordmen or helberdiers, and both are better in close combat then our clanrats and cost near the same (and you will not have 40 clanrats left after one or two turns of artillery fire from an empire player. So you have to take more units and more bodies - and for that we have our slaves, units of 60+ should be the norm. Then one or two clanrat-units with a WFT to support them.

russellmoo
08-09-2011, 21:08
I agree- if you want a clanrat unit to be a mainstay, center of the line unit- you want 40 with a bell, or try 80-100 strong with spears- this unit will absorb the shock of most any other unit and go nowhere-

Further- as far as supporting your slaves/clanrats- your best support (in order of effectiveness) is from HPAs, Ratogres, Doomwheels, Plague censor bearers.

These are the units that will help give the needed CR to actually win a combat, most everything else lacks sufficient punch-