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H33D
08-09-2011, 00:48
This situation either came up for the first time, or I never thought to ask this question before. I had a unit of Hammerers in combat with a Hellpit Abomination and a Doomflayer hit my unit in the flank. I wiped out the Doomflayer and wounded the Abomination three times. Here's the question: does the Skaven player get +2 for charging me in the flank with the Doomflayer? (+1 for the charge and +1 for the flank)

Pg. 52 BRB - "Charge! +1 combat result if the unit charged. ...if your unit charged this turn, it receives +1 +1 combat result."

Pg. 53 BRB - "Flank Attack +1 combat result if your unit is fighting the enemy unit's flank. ...if your unit is fighting the enemy in its flank, it receives +1 combat result."

Pg 59 BRB - "Flank and Rear Bonuses for flank and rear attacks can only be earned once per unit attacked in the flank or rear..."

Pg 59 BRB - "Charging In a multiple close combat, you receive +1 combat result if your side has one or more units that charged this turn."

I guess the question is whether a player 'has' a unit that charged the flank means it is alive. If a unit is dead you don't have a flanking unit anymore? Or you do have a unit that charged the flank it is just dead but keeps its score. Help!

tmarichards
08-09-2011, 01:07
Resolving all combat res at the end of the combat is the most sensible way to do it, otherwise you can end up with situations where someone destroys their opponent in combat but still loses.

H33D
08-09-2011, 01:11
Except if you wipeout the enemy you automatically win.

Scalebug
08-09-2011, 01:21
Check the wording for the CR factors. Wounds are always tallied, but other bonuses are given to units that are doing the thing awarding the bonus, for example a flank charge or carrying a banner. If they, in a multiple combat, are not there any more when CR is counted, you don't get the bonus.

BEEGfrog
08-09-2011, 01:22
I believe RAW is +1 for charging as the rule allows it to happen at any time in combat, but nothing for flank as this is counted at CR calculation when it no longer is fighting in flank. As H33D says this is irrelevant if you wipe out all of a units melee opponents as in this case you win whatever the CR score.

Scalebug
08-09-2011, 01:25
I believe RAW is +1 for charging as the rule allows it to happen at any time in combat, but nothing for flank as this is counted at CR calculation when it no longer is fighting in flank. As H33D says this is irrelevant if you wipe out all of a units melee opponents as in this case you win whatever the CR score.

No, the wording is the same for the charge and flank bonus; "it" get +1. If "it" is not there when CR is calculated at the end of the combat, nothing is giving this +1 to your side.

H33D
08-09-2011, 01:32
Also remember this was a multiple combat so even though the doomflayer was wiped out the hpa was alive so I didn't automatically win combat.

Also I checked (and also quoted) the wording and that is where I'm at a loss. Did the skaven player have a unit that charged? Yes. Does he have a unit that charged? No.

I am personally leaning way in favor of no CR given for dead units, but my opponent was uncertain so I'm trying to see if anyone knows a crystal clear answer to this.

timmytool
08-09-2011, 05:54
This situation either came up for the first time, or I never thought to ask this question before. I had a unit of Hammerers in combat with a Hellpit Abomination and a Doomflayer hit my unit in the flank. I wiped out the Doomflayer and wounded the Abomination three times. Here's the question: does the Skaven player get +2 for charging me in the flank with the Doomflayer? (+1 for the charge and +1 for the flank)

Pg. 52 BRB - "Charge! +1 combat result if the unit charged. ...if your unit charged this turn, it receives +1 +1 combat result."

Pg. 53 BRB - "Flank Attack +1 combat result if your unit is fighting the enemy unit's flank. ...if your unit is fighting the enemy in its flank, it receives +1 combat result."

Pg 59 BRB - "Flank and Rear Bonuses for flank and rear attacks can only be earned once per unit attacked in the flank or rear..."

Pg 59 BRB - "Charging In a multiple close combat, you receive +1 combat result if your side has one or more units that charged this turn."

I guess the question is whether a player 'has' a unit that charged the flank means it is alive. If a unit is dead you don't have a flanking unit anymore? Or you do have a unit that charged the flank it is just dead but keeps its score. Help!

The point at which CR is resolved is when CR are checked and then added if valid. While I currently cant find an exact statement to that effect in the rule book one statement does lend heavily to this opinion.

BRB p52 "extra ranks" and "disruption", "If your unit's formation is at least five models wide, you can claim a bonus of +1 combat result for each extra rank of five or more models behind the fighting rank, at the end of the fight, up to a maximum of +3." and "Sometimes, an enemy unit will begin the round of close combat with enough ranks to cause disruption, but takes enough casualties so that it no longer has two or more ranks of five or more models. In this case, it can no longer disrupt the unit it is fighting and the extra ranks are counted as normal."

in your scenario where the Doomflayer charges a combat from last turn and is wiped out before combat resolution then it is not a unit that charged as it is no longer a unit(on the board). Just as a standard does not count for CR when the standard bearer(or bsb) is killed and the unit remains.

I think it comes down to the writer not seeing this scenario and therefor did not write it in a way to remove doubts.