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CaptainFaramir
09-09-2011, 14:21
Does exactly what it says on the tin. Nothing too special about the list, I think, I'm sure you'll all have seen a version of it before. There are a few relevant Tournament restrictions (No Hoeth, No BotWD, No SCs, 400pts/unit max, 3 flyers max, White Lions 0-1).

Basically, I'm rubbish at picking my lores (and what spells are useful/synergistic).

Please feel free to comment on composition, but mainly looking for advice as to the lores (and for the lvl 2, the spells) I should be taking. Currently, thinking Shadow on the Lvl 4 (withering + okkam) and Heavens on Lvl 2 (Harmonic Convergence and Comet).

Thanks in advance, you geniuses.


Lords
Archmage, Level 4, Talisman of Protection, Silver Wand (315)

Heroes
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff (165)
BSB, GW, GP, AoC (168)

Core
10 Archers (110)
10 Archers (110)
27 Seaguard, Shields, FC, Banner of Eternal Flame (386)

Special
23 White Lions, FC, Banner of Discipline (390)
20 Phoenix Guard, FC, Banner of Sorcery (380)
14 Swordmasters, Standard Bearer (222)

Rare
3 Eagles (150)

Grand Total - 2396

TheDrugLordX
09-09-2011, 15:23
Talisman of protection on your archmage? I havn't done the numbers, but the talisman that grants 4+ ward save is named Talisman of Preservation.

About the list, swordmasters work better as shock troops, so I'd skip the banner and make them 2 units of 7, to benefit more from their 2 attacks each.

3 Eagles is also overkill, I'd swap two for a RBT.

Also, if possible, try finding room for the Reaver Bow on your archmage. Even with BS4 it's decent, especially if you don't want to invest on another high elf character.

As for lores, Lore of Shadow on the lvl 4 gives you the best spells to support your army in general. Your exact setup with a lvl 4 shadow + a lvl 2 high magic with seer staff is just brutal. The only setup that is more brutal is taking high magic on the lvl 4 and shadow on the level 2!! Level two takes withering + okkam/signature dependant on enemy, whilst the lvl 4 gets 6 spells with relatively small casting costs, potentially you'll be able to cast all of them with +4 to cast, meaning you will get alot of spells through.

Just mu thoughts.

Morax
09-09-2011, 16:45
Does exactly what it says on the tin. Nothing too special about the list, I think, I'm sure you'll all have seen a version of it before. There are a few relevant Tournament restrictions (No Hoeth, No BotWD, No SCs, 400pts/unit max, 3 flyers max, White Lions 0-1).

Basically, I'm rubbish at picking my lores (and what spells are useful/synergistic).

Please feel free to comment on composition, but mainly looking for advice as to the lores (and for the lvl 2, the spells) I should be taking. Currently, thinking Shadow on the Lvl 4 (withering + okkam) and Heavens on Lvl 2 (Harmonic Convergence and Comet).

Thanks in advance, you geniuses.


Lords
Archmage, Level 4, Talisman of Protection, Silver Wand (315)

I'd rather take Forlaith's robe for protection then the talisman of preservation. A character trying to kill him would ever with a 4++ but the robe protects him from units far better.

Heroes
Mage, Level 2, Seerstaff (165)
BSB, GW, GP, AoC (168)

Core
10 Archers (110)
10 Archers (110)
27 Seaguard, Shields, FC, Banner of Eternal Flame (386)

BSB going here or the level 4?

Special
23 White Lions, FC, Banner of Discipline (390)
20 Phoenix Guard, FC, Banner of Sorcery (380)
14 Swordmasters, Standard Bearer (222)

Rare
3 Eagles (150)

Grand Total - 2396


Talisman of protection on your archmage? I havn't done the numbers, but the talisman that grants 4+ ward save is named Talisman of Preservation.

About the list, swordmasters work better as shock troops, so I'd skip the banner and make them 2 units of 7, to benefit more from their 2 attacks each.

I'd avoid this. 7 swordmasters are horribly fragile and get blasted into irrellevence quickly. They also give up their victory points much faster.

3 Eagles is also overkill, I'd swap two for a RBT.

I have always found RBT to be underpreforming. Even more so in 8th as they have only 2 wounds and the age of hordes see 6 shots at strength 4 as an annoyance at best. Keep the eagles, they are always useful in every turn of a game and go after the biggest threat to your army.

Also, if possible, try finding room for the Reaver Bow on your archmage. Even with BS4 it's decent, especially if you don't want to invest on another high elf character.

Would be best in the unit of sea guard. Flaming strength 5 shots will take the regen off the big gribbly and the unit can finish it off.

As for lores, Lore of Shadow on the lvl 4 gives you the best spells to support your army in general. Your exact setup with a lvl 4 shadow + a lvl 2 high magic with seer staff is just brutal. The only setup that is more brutal is taking high magic on the lvl 4 and shadow on the level 2!! Level two takes withering + okkam/signature dependant on enemy, whilst the lvl 4 gets 6 spells with relatively small casting costs, potentially you'll be able to cast all of them with +4 to cast, meaning you will get alot of spells through.

Just mu thoughts.

You are right, pretty standard fare for a high elf but constructed well. As far as lore choices, I'd like to know what the other tournament restrictions are before saying anything. Are warmachines restricted? Any other units banned? Certain spells are almost nessasary for the elves to have to handle situations that are common on the tournament scene. A pair of hellpits backed by double 13th is going to wreck you unless you have access to toughness 8 troups and some character sniping. 3 mortars and 3 cannons are going to paste your units before they meet the charge of 80-120 halberdiers unless you have access to again toughness 8 troops and some auto kill spells for warmachines. Ogres that can soak wounds and punch you back will cause a world of hurt unless you can exploit their low initiative. Just a few concerns that you ought to take into account with your spell selection.

Richmt11
10-09-2011, 08:17
@TheDrug LordX If sending in two units of 7 swordmasters would you not be concerned about loosing all of them before they reach the enemy? Or would you be looking to primarily buff them and keep them intact ready for combat?

I recently played a pickup at my local GW against ogres. Now im relatively new but they tore through my blocks of 21 PG and 21 SM with relative ease. So i agree you need access to high T troops. Im interested to follow this thread as i think my current set up with a lvl 4 life isnt as effective as giving my guys higher T.

Rich.

TheDrugLordX
10-09-2011, 09:54
As you see we all have different experiances and preferances, so in the end it's up to the army list author and what he feel is right.

I don't get why people want big units of swordmasters, they're shock troops, not big bunkers that will outlast your opponent. If you think you can grind down your enemys' big combat block you're mistaken - position them on the flanks (M5 lets you manouver around most opponents with ease) and eliminate any enemy flankers (who generally are smaller in size). ASF with 2 attacks per model and WS6 and I6 means there's no stopping them, unless with ranged attacks, or chariots, - where two smaller units also is favorable.

If he kills half of them (7) it doesn't matter if you have two units of 7 or one of 14.
Two units of 7 take less casualties when facing focused fire, especially when combined with hex spells (ie if your opponent would kill more than 7 at once).
2 units of seven doesn't seem as a big a threat as one unit of 14 (but they are!), so they'll more likely to not be targeted at all.
One unit of 14 has only 50% better combat ability than a unit of 7, so you essentially lose half points spent (counted in damage). With so few numbers they won't break steadfast troops anyway so what you want is high damage potential.

The only real downsides I see;
More voulnerable to panic when in small units, altough again, having two units means you only loose HALF if they would panic at all.
They can't disrupt ranks, however, you got spearmen/sea guard for this anyway (along with other combat blocks).

Richmt11
10-09-2011, 11:52
Perhaps its simply my army list. In all recent games ive been using my SM to outlast, and they have done well. In the last 2 games my 21 SM w/ Noble BSB took down 28 BlOrcs w/ warbass & savage orc shaman, only sustaining 4 casualties (guess i got lucky?) and in my last game they took out i guess a unit of 14 ogres w/ butcher i believe. I killed all but the butcher he fled and they caught.

Im tryng to think how i would have gone differently if i broke this block into two small blocks of 7 cut my PG down a couple to fit in some WL...

So you dont buff them etc? Just sort of a throw away unit that you want to get into combat fast? WHat about command? banner of swiftness?

Rich

Richmt11
10-09-2011, 11:53
And sorry if i am thread hijacking! The thread is just loosely where i am at looking to rebuild my army list!

Rich

Trains_Get_Robbed
12-09-2011, 02:59
Running S.M in units of 7 is asenine. Your just asking to lose a game ad give up 210 V.ps.

Having 7 bodies only takes one casualty before you star losing effetiveness. Also, to use S.M on a flank is quite silly as well -honestly, ask yourself why you would want your most effetive combat unit on the flank trying to clean up harpies/chariots etc. . before getting shot up.

The only 'thing' I've notice with your list is that Shadow although great, isn't helping shore up H.E weakness' that is T3 5+ A.S. To be frank, instead of taking Heavens (and this is just looking at your list) I would take H.E magic on your level 2 with A.C (magic def is needed). The spell you want is Shield of Saph (phenominal casting vaule at +5), anything extra (Curse, Flames, Fury) is just a bonus, the +5 ward will help the S.M to get into combat with enought bodies intacted to clean up most armies. In addition, something else to think about is when you hvae 1-2 dice left, you also have drain magic, you can one dice once you have all your other spells cast, you may need a 5 or 6, but one dicing it can pay off.

All this being said, sending in G.W wielding elites into a ASL-making monster dosen't seem too smart to me. With your list the best way to take out Ogre monsters is to just Wither or Mindrazor a block or steadfast spearman -killing the beastie before it gets to attack hopefully. Grant it -also- I haven't played the new Ogres yet, but this is what I would do, as at least you get to strike before the Ogres still without losing attacks before its dead or kills elves by the buckets

Good luck, may the force be with you.

CaptainFaramir
12-09-2011, 09:04
Guys,

First up - thanks for all the feedback. I had not considered High Magic since 8th - with no autokill uber spell, I had assume it has lost ground to the more often selected Shadows, Life and Death.

As to composition, I have found taking small units to be rather "unuseful" in 8th Ed, especially Swordmasters who are T3, 5+ A/S. I'd rather have one "complete" rank of 7 reach combat, than two units of 3/4. In reality, I find that NEITHER unit makes it to combat and I lost 210 VPs. It's an interesting discussion but I'll stick with one.

As to eagles vs. BT - Bolt Throwers are simply rubbish in 8th Ed. I've played a couple of fun games with them and even then (in a fun game where I took Reavers and Shadow Warriors) they weren't any good. They weren't even fun (which the Reavers/SW at least were - although still not very good).

However, the idea of the Reaver Bow/ Annulian Crystal sounds interesting - If you were going to trim points (55 needed, I think) to include these two items, where would you cut the points?

Four swordmasters? An eagle? The Talisman of Preservation :shifty:

On magic (to summarise the above):
- Lvl 4 Shadow + Lvl 2 High (Shield/Flames)
- Lvl 4 Shadow + Lvl 2 High (roll and take Annulain Crystal)
- Lvl 4 High + Lvl 2 Shadow (Withering/Okkam)

Are there any other combinations, people would suggest?

What about Life for Stone of Flesh? Or Light to protect against shooting?

Morax
12-09-2011, 12:23
I prefer Life for Flesh to Stone and Earth Blood. Two protective spells beats one anyday of the week. Ignoring miscasts is nice as well. The level 2 could take your choice of Fire, Shadow, High, or Death. I'm personally not sold on the Annulain Crystal. I don't think the high elves need the extra magic defense, particularly if you take the level 2 high mage. Shield and Flames or Flames and Vaul's help out more then 1.5 dispell dice.