PDA

View Full Version : Stone of the Crystal Mere: How to role for more than one suffered wound.

Elfboy
11-09-2011, 21:32
I take the Stone of the Crystal Mere and have often wondered the correct way to roll the dice if I suffer more than one wound at the same time. Should I a)Roll the ward saves one wound at a time (thereby increasing my chances of taking more wounds if I fail the ward save early) or b)Roll for all the saves together.
For those unfamiliar with the item (rule for the item: 3+ ward save, if this save is ever failed the stone shatters and can no longer be used) here is an example: Spellweaver with Stone of the Crystal Mere is wounded four times in close combat. a)rolling the dice separately, she passes the first 3+ roll but fails the second, taking the wound plus the other two wounds because can no longer use her save. b)rolling all for ward saves together she only rolls one successful 3+.
If my understanding of probability is correct, method b gives her a greater chance of losing less wounds, so I would prefer to use this method; but is it the correct way to play the rule?
How do you guys (or your opponents) play this rule? Are there any other precendents of this rule in the game?

Thanks

narrativium
11-09-2011, 21:43
One at a time.

Take your example. If I roll all four saves together, and roll a 2, 3, 4 and 5, I know I've lost the save but I don't know if I took one wound or four. If I roll them sequentially, I'm in no doubt.

Loopstah
11-09-2011, 22:08
One at a time. As soon as you fail one the item stops working.

T10
11-09-2011, 22:32
The rules for that item does not specify that any such sequencing of saves is required.

In a sense this is similar to how Flaming attacks and non-Flaming Attacks at the same Initiative count work against Regeneration.

In my opinion, you get the Ward save against all wounds from that Initiative count or batch of hits, but I can see how people would assume that the sequencing is important.

H33D
11-09-2011, 22:42
Rolling your dice all together is called 'speed rolling' and while it is much quicker, this is one of the rare circumstances where you have to stick to rolling one die at a time because of the nature of the item.

narrativium
11-09-2011, 23:40
T10 has a fair answer, though.

For example: a wizard casts a Remains in Play spell on the unit he's in. As soon as he dies, the spell vanishes - but the attacks against him, and the models beside him, are simultaneous. If you kill him, surely the spell effects would remain until that Initiative stage was over? That could be important.

Scalebug
11-09-2011, 23:52
Could have sworn I had seen a FAQ on it (or at least the similar 40K Shadow field, indicating intent if nothing else), but do not find it now. Might have been a tournament house rule.

+1 for T10's version, claiming that speedrolling should not be done here is gamey pettiness. Initiative steps is the way to go.

sulla
12-09-2011, 04:59
I support rolling all dice from a single initiative at once too.

BEEGfrog
12-09-2011, 21:57
All the wounds suffered in an initiative step are simultaneous, i.e. you cannot split them up to see which one blows up the magic item, they all happen and are warded at the same time. If at least one fails, item blows up and is unavailable to ward wounds in next initiative step.

... in other words T10 was right!

shakedown47
14-09-2011, 04:32
I also agree with T10 and the others; until an errata or FAQ shows up and says that the Stone of the Crystal Mere works like a shadow field, it doesn't.

14-09-2011, 18:01
Initiative order saves is only a conjecture for how it works and it pretty much nullifies the item.

I support individually rolling the saves and it's consensus for most Wood Elf players to use the item this way.

Jericho
14-09-2011, 19:07
Most Wood Elf players (at least in 7th) would take this on a character mounted on an Eagle or Dragon, since it helps the mount as well. That's an extremely rare quality in a ward save. If it saves you from being cannon sniped for a few rounds while you maneuver for a charge then it's done its job. It's pretty awesome that most of us Wood Elf players are the ones pushing for the "one at a time" method. Shows a bit of class.

As for use against multiple simultaneous hits, I do believe that you are stuck rolling one at a time, as the rulebook describes batch rolling as a shortcut for convenience rather than the default method. This also aligns with the Shadowfield example, as well.

@Scalebug, that may have been a 6th or 7th edition FAQ since I vaguely remember this being in an old document as well. Some entries were mysteriously removed from the various 8th edition FAQs when they were first published...

The flaming/regen and RIP spell from a dying wizard are both good examples of ambiguous sections of the current rules, and for what it's worth I hope to God that they don't do the old "player whose turn it is decides" garbage in a future document.

I've got a new example just to stoke the fires of controversy. It's based on the all attacks at a given initiative step are completely simultaneous theory. What happens when you have something like the Charmed Shield or even the Stone of Rebirth? If they work against the first hit/wound suffered and all these hits/wounds are simultaneous, shouldn't it work against all of them? They are all equally the "first" one :p

sulla
14-09-2011, 19:31
Initiative order saves is only a conjecture for how it works and it pretty much nullifies the item.

I support individually rolling the saves and it's consensus for most Wood Elf players to use the item this way.Would you say 7000 WE players agree to use it this way? 10 000? I think claiming 'most Wood Elf players agree,' comes off as a fairly bogus claim (unless you are actually Orion in disguise, and do in fact represent all Wood Elvf players).

Tonberry
14-09-2011, 19:41
There's a Dark Eldar wargear item in 40K that gives a character a 2+ invulnerable save that is lost when a roll is failed. The rule there says to roll each dice individually.

As in the case presented here it does not state to roll them individually, it seems GW don't require you too; however, roll them individually, it's much simpler.

RanaldLoec
14-09-2011, 19:50
As a woodelves player who uses this item allot.

I roll the dice one at a time.

As has been pointed out batch rolling is only done to speed the game up, its not a rule.
Too much of an advantage is gained vs missile fire if you batch roll.

14-09-2011, 19:58
Initiative order saves is only a conjecture for how it works and it pretty much nullifies the item.

First you say that T10's argument is conjecture.

I support individually rolling the saves and it's consensus for most Wood Elf players to use the item this way.

Then you give this as your rebuttal?? So your own conjecture plus an appeal to authority wins?

Doing it wrong.

T10
14-09-2011, 20:54
Actually, my "conjecture" is just my opinon.

However, think of it this way. When the Jade Amulet (Empire; wearer ignores first unsaved wound) comes int play, under normal circumstances it is sufficient that the owning player just pick one of the unsaved wounds and say "That one!" and the game moves on.

But: if one of those wounds was, say, a roll of a 6 with Killing Blow, or the enhanced poison attack of an Arachnarok, then how is it determined wether that is the first unsaved wound? In my experience this has always been resolved as "normal": the owning player chosing rather than rolling for it.

As I see it, this works fine. Mighty abilities have clashed, one player breathes a sigh of relief and the other player says "Next time...!"

Elfboy
14-09-2011, 21:02
Although from a different games system, the Dark Eldar item mentioned seems to be very similar, so I'll go with the one dice at a time method. If I have to roll loads of ward saves for my spellweaver then I'm probably being too reckless with her anyway!

Skarsgard
14-09-2011, 21:58
I roll one at a time, I never considered any other alternative.

Mirbeau
14-09-2011, 22:29
I always play it Marquess of Queensberry style, one at a time. Lovely item, never leave home without it.