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tw1386
12-09-2011, 05:16
Hey guys,

So the reason I am asking is because at my LGS, we have a thing setup called a "challenge board" which is similar to an elimination tournament except you don't get eliminated. Anyways, I have won four games in a row to get up there with my Tomb Kings against your typical crazy lists. 3+ Chosen shenanigans, Skaven in general lol, Dark Elves dual hydra and unkillable lord (except he aint unkillable for me lol) sac dagger, etc, and the VC deathstar of doom. After getting to the top I have to win 2 "defense" games to give other people a chance to win the prize pool of around $120. As you can surmise this is a no-comp environment, pitched battles. Only thing is it's 2500 points legal and no special characters of any kind.

SO my first defense game is this week verse a Lizardman player, and I have never actually fought a Lizardman army with the new TK yet. I know they are a points denial, tough as nails army to face with a life frog. He runs two big blocks of saurus and a temple gaurd block, with his salamanders and skinks to finish out the points.

Frankly I'm at a loss as to what to do about it. The first thing that quickly came to my mind was try and Purple Sun it to death, then I forgot about the ability to take away 6's from the Frog and realized that is going to be hit or miss.

My "all-comers" list is as follows:

High Liche Priest
- Channeling Staff
- 4 + Ward

Liche priest (death or light) Lately ive been favoring death.
- Dispell Scroll

Tomb Prince
- Great Weapon
- 2+ armor

10 Archers

2 x 40 skele warrios w / mus & std

4 Chariots with std / flaming banner

2 x 4 Necropolis Knights

2 x Warshpynxes w/ breath

2 x Catapults

Casket of Souls


I'm worried about the Sphynxes as they've been Golden against most other armies, except dark elves who kept pitting them even with an Ini. of 3. Im worried because of well the bastard things called Skinks. I'm also not really sold on the Catapults on Lizardmen as the relatively high AS adn tough 4 on the Saurus are pretty much gonna make it useless, and that's all it would really shoot at. Maybe the Salamanders. Maybe keep them to have the percieved threat value for his skinks to go after?

Anyways, I'm pretty sure he isn't going to change his list as he's a pretty new player, but a good wargamer.

What would you guys change to fight this Lizardmen list? (besides the obvious like dropping the flaming banner, etc.)

BEEGfrog
13-09-2011, 02:16
Just surrender, you know it is the will of the old ones for the Lizardmen to triumph...

Knights_Templar
13-09-2011, 03:42
Your right that Lizardmen play points denial, however it's those little units, Skinks, Salamanders, heck even a Steg or small unit of Krox are things you should be targeting.
If your favoring the lore of death its okay, use it to knock out his supporting characters (assuming he has any). If not buff and debuff as much as you can.
Should you take light (a decent choice) I 10, WS 10, ASF skeletons are something to fear, just buff everything. Hope the magic pools go your way and keep your mages outside of 24'' from his Slann, but keep them close to your lines.
Don't rely on Ld tests as cold-blooded and a reliable BSB makes for a hard army to shift. Counter this by using the golden death-mask and a reliable delivery system (chariots are a decent method). Now don't go after the TG block if you have to fight his blocks, go for the Sarus, little harder to kill with the parry (assuming HW+Shield) but easier to break as they are not stubborn, hit one block at a time with every thing that you got.
Finaly use your modifier-ignoring-arrows to take out those Camo/regular skinks, if your ignoring modifiers turning them into pincushions is not very difficult.

Bauknefer
17-09-2011, 04:57
I play Lizardmen and play a simular list to your opponent. (well i dont use the drop 6's ability because i think thats lame) but i take 2 scar vets an oldblood and a skink priest on top of the frog. I take 5 units of skirmishing skinks 2 sallys and a steg. I also take a TG block and 2 saurus blocks.

To rip apart my army you would have to kill all support units. after that the frog can only do so much. skinks die in droves to arrows and just stack catapult fire on frog. you might get lucky.

I would say take the golden mask but you dont have a TK so you cant. but that would be a godsend against the saurus blocks.

Now this is of course what you can do against him but he will have stuff he can do to you too. Banehead and Feedback scroll on heirophant for instance..... ( I use that and feel dirty every time) or hand your heirophant a miscast. or dwellers. its all about who hits who first and hardest. if you can keep your hierophant out of dwellers range it make keep him alive longer.

Dæmon
18-09-2011, 10:52
I would fight fire with fire.
2 Casket of Souls
Large unit of 50 Archers lead by Khalida
Hopefully get the buff spell for double shot aoe aura

The archers and Khalida should be able to annihilate all the skinks.
Caskets of Souls to wipe out Temple Guards
2 Catapults to clean up which ever is left.

If the models remain unchanged, the only thing i can think of is using the Stone Gaze as lizardmen army has low ini

Gaargod
19-09-2011, 02:19
Sorry, but ignore what Daemon said. Casket of Souls will never be wiping out temple guard. Ever. Most Slann carry the Discipline banner to be LD10, otherwise known as 'screw you casket'. And guess what happens when saurus hit your lines. Bad things happen.

To be frank, death mask is of limited use against saurus. Namely, you have to be winning combat for it to help you! Saurus are ld8 cold blooded, so you're definitely looking at an outside chance for fear etc. Against basic skelies, they will rack up the kills so fast they won't need steadfast. Ok, it would help with sphinxes/necro knights, but then you actually have to be within 6" of the unit for it to work...


Basically:

You only have 10 archers, so his skinks really aren't that bothered (oh noes, 20/9 wounds a turn!).
Ergo, his skinks will eat your sphinxes. It happens. Its fun. A unit of skinks double shotting puts, on average, 3.33 wounds on it before your 5+ save, so 3 units together have a tendency to delete sphinxes in a turn (I've done that to an opponent before. He was not pleased).
The way you deal with this is to use your sphinxes as reserves. Keep them in central to your army, and use them to punch into saurus blocks when engaged.

Necro knights are your friends, love them. They can actually reasonably threaten skinks (and vice versa) - skinks have a 12" range, and that's an easy charge for your boys, followed by redirecting into the next unit. Same with salamanders. Chariots can potentially do the same job, but...

The slann is an evil frog of death (life, actually), who will nuke his way through magic phases. A life slann makes people cry. Basically, you have 2 options.
Option A) Attempt to kill his temple guard block. Its likely going to be approaching 1000pts by itself, doing so will usually win you the game.
Option b) ignore it, feed it dross all game, and kill the rest of his army.

Option b is the sensible option to take. By taking 3 infantry blocks, he's making a crucial error - he's only got 2 defensive buff spells to cast a turn. Earthblood HAS to be cast on wizard/unit, so he can only buff one unit to T6/8, at best. Thus if you can hammer into both units simultaneously, you can actually do some damage to one!

You 'can' try to kill the slann's unit. The problem is generally time - the temple guard will really need to be focused on by a huge chunk of your army to actually kill it - and doing so usually means the saurus blocks will chomp their way through your stuff instead. If you actually HAVE to:
Multicharge, specifically with the chariots and something capable of LOTS of damage. Do not put skeleton blocks in combat with him. Even with magic buffs, you're basically just giving him free combat res. Sphinxes, necro knights and chariots are the only things that should be combat. Flaming impact hits means Earthblood is useless. If they've also got flesh to stone... wow you're going to lose that combat.

Kill the salamanders as soon as possible. Or before that. Those things will happily delete your skeletons blocks before you can say 'charred ash'. Literally, salamanders are number 1 targets, from the get go, and if you need to sacrifice a unit to do so, be thankful you're getting the opportunity.

Dæmon
19-09-2011, 03:48
Not taking casket of souls in fear of Standard of Discipline is just silly.
What if they didn't take it?
Even if they did there are still plenty of other juicy targets.

karechar
19-09-2011, 11:51
skinks are nasty 12" move and 12"shot
they move outside your los and double shoot needing only 6's to hit due to poison no to wound is rolled.
they can kite you forever.
and you can never even lay a hand on them.
as a skaven player they are my worst nightmare.
i have not found anything i can do against these muck dwellers

killing a slann in a tg unit
spells like dreaded 13th can whipe out the entire unit including slann.
find a spell that can do something simmillar with no saves allowed.

good luck

Gaargod
19-09-2011, 14:02
I didn't say don't take the casket. I said don't rely on it to kill temple guard. It actually works quite well versus lizardmen, as skinks/salamanders outside of the general's range are quite vulnerable with only LD6.

As karechar was saying, purple sun will kill saurus/TG quite easily. However, as you've only got a Lv2 to cast it and he will likely have becalming cogitation to negate irresistibles etc.

Enigmatik1
19-09-2011, 16:55
If there's one match up where Sepuchral Stalkers can earn their keep it's against this kind of list. Of course, you're gambling with double misfire shenanigans, but if they come on the board and "Care Bear Stare" a unit of Saurus it could change the tide of the game.

I wouldn't plan my strategy around them (unless they made up the entirety of your Special allotment of points), but I would definitely field 3-4 because once they come on the board and if they are in threat range of his blocks, he has to honor them. Just yesterday, I had a unit of 3, unleash 30 shots on a hapless Temple Guard unit...let's just say there were 2 TG and Fatty McButterpants left when they were done. Note: My results were not typical...but hilarious nonetheless.