PDA

View Full Version : After Combat - Multiple Units Pursuing/Reforming



b4z
12-09-2011, 21:06
How the HELL do you resolve what happens with your OWN Units AFTER Combat has finished and the Enemy Unit is Fleeing and you elect to Pursue AND/OR you elect to Restrain and Reform... WITHOUT it ending up in a Tangled Mess which disadvantages you.

It is obviously really simple and very clear with one unit vs one unit.

But with Multiple Combats it ALWAYS ends in a big mess... It is suprising actually that the rules are all written so carefully yet there is NOTHING [pictoral example wise] to cover how you resolve untangling the mess.

Here is a basic example i have made...

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww235/b4zm/Rules/aftercombat001.png

Z = Orange = Enemy Unit
A, B, C = Your Units

If you want to Pursue with some units and Restrain and Reform with others, depending on who does what, it will end in various states of tangled mess.

It seems to really punish the victorious units, because if you elect to Pursue you are going to be hitting your own units and stopping, and if you elect to Restrain and Reform you can only do it certain ways because your own units are blocking you.

Yrrdead
12-09-2011, 21:29
When you make your pursuit move you ignore your own units to a point. Obviously this assumes that the enemy unit successfully fled. The first unit to be moved is essentially "picked up and placed".

But essentially you are correct if you have multiple wide and/or long units (hello 8th edition) you are going to have a bit of a mess.

Though in actual games the only army I've seen really struggle with this is Bretts.

b4z
12-09-2011, 22:11
Yrrdead could i get a rule page for that?
Also it is a very common occurence amongst our gaming group involving many armies.

----------

Bearing in mind each Friendly Unit that is electing to Pursue has to FIRST of all turn to face the centre of the Enemy Unit that is fleeing.

[The Enemy Unit which, first, had to turn to face directly AWAY from the CENTRE of the most NUMEROUS Unit - which is a problem even in itself!]

Just doing that creates a big mess to begin with, and is often impossible, and thats before they even start to even pursue.

Just look at the example image above and see how that would work.

Futhermore if you then carry out a Pursuit move, when you come to within 1" of a Friendly Unit you must stop.

So in a lot of multiple combat pursuits like the example above, you are already breaking that rule if you move your Friendly Unit at all.

I just don't see any rules that get around these fundamental problems... to prevent this tangled mess, which keeps occuring.

T10
12-09-2011, 22:16
Page 61 has a big picture of this.

-T10

b4z
12-09-2011, 22:57
Page 61 Picture demonstrates 2 Friendly Units Pursuing 1 Enemy Unit, both of which have failed to meet the 'CAUGHT' value.

Page 61 Picture does not cover:

Some Units Pursuing, Some Units Restraining and Reforming.
Multiple Units Restraining and Reforming.

And therefore doesn't fully explain how to resolve situations where your own Friendly Units are blocking each other from Pursuing or Restraining etc.

However, It does [helpfully] show that the Empire Detachment PIVOT IGNORING the Empire Spearmen's FOOTPRINT.

Yrrdead
12-09-2011, 23:03
That is all I was getting at b4z. Other than that you already know how to resolve this situation. If you are looking for something that you overlooked , well sorry to disappoint but there isn't.

There was a related thread, though it mainly concerned Bretts , that some people talked about some houserules they used. But if you are looking for actual rulebook help well you said it in your first post.

The rules are very clear, and clearly lead to a CF.

b4z
13-09-2011, 08:48
I just don't understand how the rules: leading up to a combat, during a combat, and resolving a combat can be so clear.
Yet it didn't occur to them to be clear about what happens AFTER a combat with multiple units.

My picture example is very simple.

It can get much more complex if i started adding more units from both sides.

If i am to read by RAW REFORMING and PURSUING, then it will always end up in a tangled mess, because i end up in a scenario where my units are [mostly] all inhibiting each other in some fashion.

I just wondered how others deal with this common problem.

Yrrdead
13-09-2011, 09:02
Honestly I haven't had an issue with this. I guess mainly due to my meta scene and army construction. By that I mean I see very little multiple combats of this magnitude. The few times I've had my few units that are large enough to cause this , all charge a single enemy, is usually at the tail end of a stomping where it is moot anyway.


So I'd have to say that I don't find it to be a common problem at all.

T10
13-09-2011, 09:10
I don't see the problem, really. When moving a pursuing unit the other friendly units in the combat are essentially ignored. The way we play it: A unit that was involved in the combat only becomes an obstruction to the other units after you've completed its pursuit move.

Notice that you already know how far the pursuing units are going to move, so you should be able to minimize the "messiness" of the situation.

Also, when you are deciding on restrain/pursuit you should have a fair idea of whether it is advantageous (down the road) to commit all your troops to pursue the enemy or restrain and reform with the more bulky units.

I don't think this "really punishes the victorious units" - it is a problem of your own making, after all.

b4z
13-09-2011, 09:37
When moving a pursuing unit the other friendly units in the combat are essentially ignored.
Where does it say this in the Rulebook?


The way we play it: A unit that was involved in the combat only becomes an obstruction to the other units after you've completed its pursuit move.
That's a houserule of your own making though, to resolve the problems i am describing.

What about when it comes to Restraining and Reforming?
Multiple Combats create a raft of problems when it comes to Reforming POST Combat.

Yrrdead
13-09-2011, 09:54
Again yes it creates problems. You've stated the issue admirably. The rules clearly show this. Don't combo charge with multiple huge units. Problem solved.

Mr_Rose
13-09-2011, 10:11
Yeah, I get the impression that if GW were to issue an official response, possibly via the Standard Bearer column, it would be along the lines of "yeah, huge units got confused like this in the historical eras we're inspired by so as far as we're concerned this is basically 'just as planned'..."

I personally consider it an interesting tactical problem; concentrate too much of your force in one place and you can end up messing up your whole line. But if you don't focus fire on some units, they can overwhelm your line...

T10
13-09-2011, 10:13
I still don't see any unsolvable problems. The rules rely on the players being persons of sufficient intelligence to resolve complex issues.

Pursuing units move as far as possible - in the most extreme situations this means they don't get to move at all due to obstructing units and/or terrain.

Units that restrain and reform do so within the space available at the time you start reforming. It may be helpful to move pursuing units first to create more room.

At some point, however, you'll need to enforce the 1" rule by simply shuffling the units away from each other. It might be helpful to do this after the fleeing unit has been moved but before any pursuit moves or reforms - this would certainly depend on the situation.

Tregar
13-09-2011, 11:00
So you let friendly units chase through each other T10? In the example, if A restrained, you would allow C to chase through A?

b4z
13-09-2011, 11:14
T10 i get the impression you knowingly like to play Mr.Simple ;)
You know full well what i am getting at :p



Pursuing units move as far as possible - in the most extreme situations this means they don't get to move at all due to obstructing units and/or terrain.
Above, if A were to pursue and B were to Restrain, A would stop right infront of B.
In fact A cant even align itself properly PERPENDICULAR to Z's Flee Path because B is in the way.
Especially if we choose to FIRST carry out PURSUIT moves and THEN RESTRAIN/REFORMS as you suggest.

There is nothing in the rulebook saying you are allowed to move [multiple] PURSUING units THROUGH other Friendly Units involved in the same Multiple Combat.
In fact it quite clearly states the contrary.



Units that restrain and reform do so within the space available at the time you start reforming.
Above, if A were to pursue and B and C were to Restrain and Reform. A pursues and stops right infront of B practically moving nowhere.
Then B can barely Reform because A is right there in its face as well as C.


It may be helpful to move pursuing units first to create more room.
Again this hints toward your own House Rule. You can't move pursuing units through other friendly units [including those involved in a Multiple Combat]. So 'creating more room' isn't even an option.

T10
13-09-2011, 12:19
So you let friendly units chase through each other T10? In the example, if A restrained, you would allow C to chase through A?

No, I see what you mean: The restraining unit A would obstruct the movement of the pursuing unit C.

(I realize this isn't entirely in keeping with my statement "A unit that was involved in the combat only becomes an obstruction to the other units after you've completed its pursuit move." It this point I was mostly concerned with a pivoting unit crossing into another unit's footprint.)

Again, this is a problem of the player's own making: If he didn't want unit C to get "tangled up", he should have pursued with both units and moved unit A first, or restrained both units.

-T10

Tregar
13-09-2011, 13:09
That's a bit of a cop-out, there could be any number of reasons why it's not a problem of the player's making. He might, for example, have elected to restrain with both units, but failed his leadership test for one of them...

The main rulebook does seem to allow the initial pivot to move units through each other, but how far that translates to the actual movement of pursuing units, I dunno. I suppose we're meant to fudge it :D

T10
13-09-2011, 15:04
A player should be able to foresee the problem arising before charging the enemy unit from all sides and ask himself "Assuming that the enemy breaks, will the flee/pursue/reform resolution put me at a disadvantage? If so, will it be worth it?"

-T10

b4z
13-09-2011, 22:33
So... I have discovered that there are indeed no proper rules to go by for untangling the mess of POST Multiple Combats.

Which i suspected before i opened the thread.

Only a House Ruling can solve this [what i believe to be common] problem, as has been suggested.

Yrrdead
13-09-2011, 22:47
Well I agree that only a House Rule will fix your perceived problem.

I disagree with "there are indeed no proper rules to go by".

The rulebook adequately covers these situations. There isn't any real ambiguity. You just dislike the resolution that the rules give. Which is different from there being no rules to go by.

T10
14-09-2011, 10:36
Indeed. It's a bit like getting stuck in a traffic jam and blaming it on there being no proper traffic regulations.

-T10