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Thénon
15-09-2011, 09:39
a bit of a pickle came up when i was trying the new ogres against HE today

basicly Thundertusk and bulls charged into a unit of swordmasters. The thundertusk causes all enemys withing 6" to be ASL.

now does this mean that it cancels out the ASF rule of HE (as i know it works a bit diffrently) to go at initiative which is then ASL becouse they have GW meaning my bulls go first

or

is the ASL of the GW cancels by azuryans speed before the ASL of the thundertusk? meaning the go at inititive of the HE?

the HE player was adamant that they`d go at inititive. :S

Liber
15-09-2011, 10:03
this is probably gonna need to be faq'd by GW for a final answer.

Loopstah
15-09-2011, 10:18
The same special rule does not stack unless stated. ASL does not stack as it doesn't say it does.

So the HE have ASL x1 and ASF x1.

ASF and ASL cancel each other out so the HE strike at initiative as if they had neither rule. They also don't re-roll.

Liber
15-09-2011, 10:34
the HE strike at initiative as if they had neither rule. They also don't re-roll.


yes.

(i need to edit my own posts rather than making a different post later on...sorry for any confusion)

Da Once & Future Git
15-09-2011, 10:34
As much as i hate to say it... i would say swordmaster (& any other High elf unit) will still strike first, with re-rolls


The same special rule does not stack unless stated. ASL does not stack as it doesn't say it does.

So the HE have ASL x1 and ASF x1.

ASF and ASL cancel each other out so the HE strike at initiative as if they had neither rule. They also don't re-roll.

This is very true, however it has already been stated the Speed of Asuran trumps ASL so no matter how many times you put ASL it doesn't stack & SoA still trumps.

I think it is wrong but thems the rules...
Besides, gotta keep those whiney elves happy sometimes... :P

Munin
15-09-2011, 10:40
They will strike in initiative order. The Speed of Assyran special ability gives ASF and makes them ignore the ASL caused by GWs. So when the Thundertusk ASL is applied it will cancel out the ASF bestowed by SoA.

cptcosmic
15-09-2011, 10:41
The same special rule does not stack unless stated. ASL does not stack as it doesn't say it does.

So the HE have ASL x1 and ASF x1.

ASF and ASL cancel each other out so the HE strike at initiative as if they had neither rule. They also don't re-roll.
they actually should strike by I order but by RAW they still strike first. :D

the model already has ASL because it is applied on it from the great weapon. SoA skips ASL but does not remove it thus the model still has the ASL rule and special rules do not stack does not matter how many sources :cool:

in short: all great weapon wielding HE units have protection from ASL effects haha

Mid'ean
15-09-2011, 12:21
They will strike in initiative order. The Speed of Assyran special ability gives ASF and makes them ignore the ASL caused by GWs. So when the Thundertusk ASL is applied it will cancel out the ASF bestowed by SoA.

This is correct. They will strike at their Int with no re-rolls.

Minsc
15-09-2011, 12:25
HE ignore ASL granted by Greatweapons.

If you give HE regular ASL, it cancels out their ASF, however they still ignore the ASL given from Greatweapons, so they simply strike at Initiative, -without- rerolls.

cptcosmic
15-09-2011, 12:54
If you give HE regular ASL
there are no different kinds of ASL rules, there is only one and ASL is applied to the model if you carry a great weapon. SoA does not remove it, only skips it, in short: gw wielding HE troops already have the ASL rule thus other applications of ASL have no effect because special rules do not stack

narrativium
15-09-2011, 13:04
there are no different kinds of ASL rules, there is only one and ASL is applied to the model if you carry a great weapon. SoA does not remove it, only skips it, in short: gw wielding HE troops already have the ASL rule thus other applications of ASL have no effect because special rules do not stack
No, High Elves ignore ASL penalties from the weapons they wield. In essence a great weapon wielded by a High Elf does not have the ASL rule.

They do not ignore ASL from other sources, e.g. the Thundertusk, and in such circumstances their ASF (inclusive of rerolls) would be cancelled out.

Thénon
15-09-2011, 13:09
hmmm mixed answers lol

Liber
15-09-2011, 13:20
hmmm mixed answers lol


i have changed my mind. after thinking about it some more, and re-reading a couple things, i agree with the majority:

strike at initiative order (but no fricken re-rolls!!!)


still hope GW faqs the thundertusk rule, just to avoid conflicts at the gaming table.

cptcosmic
15-09-2011, 13:27
No, High Elves ignore ASL penalties from the weapons they wield. In essence a great weapon wielded by a High Elf does not have the ASL rule.

They do not ignore ASL from other sources, e.g. the Thundertusk, and in such circumstances their ASF (inclusive of rerolls) would be cancelled out.
ignoring is not the same as removing. they still have ASL on them due to the great weapons but it has no effect.

Makrar
15-09-2011, 13:37
ignoring is not the same as removing. they still have ASL on them due to the great weapons but it has no effect.

I actually agree that this is the RAW version. I never considered the asl part of the weapons :eek:

Mid'ean
15-09-2011, 13:38
No, they do not still have ASL. You said it yourself. It has no effect!! SoA removes,skips, deleates, however you want to put it, the ASL from great weapons. It's not there. It states that in the HE rules for SoA. So you have HE who have ASF with anything they are carrying. Then you run into a thundertusk giving them ASL. Following the rules from here is simple. ASF + ASL you strike at Int with no re-rolls.

BramGaunt
15-09-2011, 13:40
I would go with "at I order" until it gets faq'ed. Its a bitof a blind spot.

Munin
15-09-2011, 13:48
ignoring is not the same as removing. they still have ASL on them due to the great weapons but it has no effect.

If we are gonna go this way couldn't we as well say that they ignore it when it comes to stacking purposes as well?

I say, claiming that SoA gives HE immunity to ASL no matter the source is pushing it a bit far, as much as I would like that as a HE player.

Voss
15-09-2011, 13:59
i have changed my mind. after thinking about it some more, and re-reading a couple things, i agree with the majority:

strike at initiative order (but no fricken re-rolls!!!)


still hope GW faqs the thundertusk rule, just to avoid conflicts at the gaming table.
The thundertusk's rule isn't the problem, it grants ASL, see main rules.

The problem (and what needs to FAQed) is the High Elves bizarro-version of ASF that doesn't work like the main rulebook version of ASF. Thats where all the headaches lie. It should work exactly as described in the main rulebook with no exceptions. Otherwise, you get stupid rules conflicts like this.

T10
15-09-2011, 14:06
Always Strike First does not stack with itself, and Always Strike Last does not stack with itself.

A unit of Grave Guard with great weapons that gain the Always Strike First special rule will strike in Initiative order. If they gain the Always Strike Last special rule again from the Thundertusk this has no further effect.

ASF and ASL cancel each other out, yes. But not to the extent that you can apply ASF once more and gain the benefit, or suffer the penalties for a second ASL.

As far as High Elves are concerned, they have the Speed of Assuryan, which is ASF with specific permission to override the ASL of their great weapons. So adding an ASF from another source just means they strike at initiative order.

If, on the other hand, they lost their Always Strike First special rule then I assume that they would suffer from the ASF special rule of their great weapons.

-T10

cptcosmic
15-09-2011, 14:10
No, they do not still have ASL. You said it yourself. It has no effect!! SoA removes,skips, deleates, however you want to put it, the ASL from great weapons. It's not there. It states that in the HE rules for SoA. So you have HE who have ASF with anything they are carrying. Then you run into a thundertusk giving them ASL. Following the rules from here is simple. ASF + ASL you strike at Int with no re-rolls.
having no effect and not being there are two different things too. also the SoA rule does not state that you delete or remove the ASL rule from the model. please show me the text line that states "remove the ASL rule from the model with a great weapon" :rolleyes:



If, on the other hand, they lost their Always Strike First special rule then I assume that they would suffer from the ASF special rule of their great weapons.
that can only happen if you let special rules stack which they dont. the model with the great weapon already has ASL thus any further application has no effect.

Liber
15-09-2011, 14:24
The thundertusk's rule isn't the problem, it grants ASL, see main rules.

The problem (and what needs to FAQed) is the High Elves bizarro-version of ASF that doesn't work like the main rulebook version of ASF. Thats where all the headaches lie. It should work exactly as described in the main rulebook with no exceptions. Otherwise, you get stupid rules conflicts like this.



i completely understand this.

but they still need to write an afq for the thundertusk for what happens with high elves with great weapons.

they aren't gonna write anything about the thundertusk on the high elf faq thats for sure.

so my point stands as its what is practical. the high elves are at fault for the confusion but it doesn't matter, the confusion is there and the way to fix it (untill a new high elf armybook comes out) is to faq the OK.

Liber
15-09-2011, 14:26
having no effect and not being there are two different things too. also the SoA rule does not state that you delete or remove the ASL rule from the model. please show me the text line that states "remove the ASL rule from the model with a great weapon" :rolleyes:


that can only happen if you let special rules stack which they dont. the model with the great weapon already has ASL thus any further application has no effect.


what are you talking about?

are you suggesting that the thundertusk causing ASL has absolutely NO affect on High Elves?

i need to ask first so i don't go needlessly tearing your post down (as i am hopefully misunderstanding you)

theunwantedbeing
15-09-2011, 14:27
They strike in initiative order.
ASF + ASL that they ignore = ASF
ASF + ASL that they ignore + ASL that they do not ignore = ASF + ASL
ASF + ASL = strike in initiutive order

Really very simple.
You can be given a special rule multiple times, it's just that in almost all cases nothing happens because the effects are not cumulative.

The High Elf Player was correct.

Liber
15-09-2011, 14:36
The High Elf Player was correct.


assuming the HE player wasn't also trying to get his re-rolls on misses :p

the OP didn't say.

cptcosmic
15-09-2011, 14:37
what are you talking about?

are you suggesting that the thundertusk causing ASL has absolutely NO affect on High Elves?

i need to ask first so i don't go needlessly tearing your post down (as i am hopefully misunderstanding you)
what do you not understand?
1. special rules dont stack
2. great weapon wielding units already have ASL

great weapon apply ASL on the model thus any HE wielding a great weapon has the ASL rule ALWAYS. it does not matter that Speed of Awesomeness trumps it, the rule is on the model.

special rules dont stack, the unit already has ASL thus giving it ASL again has no effect.


You can be given a special rule multiple times, it's just that in almost all cases nothing happens because the effects are not cumulative.
how do you come to this conclusion? either the model has a rule or it does not or have you ever seen an unit entry saying e.g. frenzyx2 :rolleyes: accoring to your logic I can give grave guard ASF twice because the first one is canceled (ASL + ASF that is cancelled + ASF that is not cancelled = ASF) you can either have one or the other way of handling it, not both.

Loopstah
15-09-2011, 14:47
Unfortunately after thinking about this I'd have to say by RAW that any High Elf with a Great Weapon already has the ASL rule so can't gain it again.

ASL is not a rule that stacks so by having ASL from Great Weapons but ignoring its effect they cannot then get ASL from another source.

So as daft as it sounds the Thundertusk has no effect on Swordmasters as they already have ASL but ignore it.

The important point is Speed of Asuryan does not remove the ASL rule from the Great Weapons they carry.

This needs a FAQ.

Mid'ean
15-09-2011, 15:03
having no effect and not being there are two different things too. also the SoA rule does not state that you delete or remove the ASL rule from the model. please show me the text line that states "remove the ASL rule from the model with a great weapon" :rolleyes:


that can only happen if you let special rules stack which they dont. the model with the great weapon already has ASL thus any further application has no effect.

"all High Elves
have the special rule Always Strike First, regardless of the weapon
they are wielding.”

So regardless of the weapon, they have ASF. So the GW ASL penalty is not there. Doesn't hide lurking in the corners waiting for the HE to lose ASF and then it pops up saying "Now you have ASL again."

It is readily apparent that the only agreement we are going to come to is to disagree.

Loopstah
15-09-2011, 15:13
"all High Elves
have the special rule Always Strike First, regardless of the weapon
they are wielding.”

So regardless of the weapon, they have ASF. So the GW ASL penalty is not there. Doesn't hide lurking in the corners waiting for the HE to lose ASF and then it pops up saying "Now you have ASL again."

The penalty is not there but nothing has removed the ASL rule from the Great Weapons.

ASL is a part of the Great Weapon rule.

As such by RAW Swordmasters can never lose ASF by something giving them ASL as ASL doesn't stack.

If it said: "all High Elves have the special rule Always Strike First, as such Great Weapons they carry lose the Always Strike Last rule." then there would be no problem.

There is a difference between having a rule and ignoring it and not having a rule.

cptcosmic
15-09-2011, 15:14
"all High Elves
have the special rule Always Strike First, regardless of the weapon
they are wielding.”

So regardless of the weapon, they have ASF. So the GW ASL penalty is not there. Doesn't hide lurking in the corners waiting for the HE to lose ASF and then it pops up saying "Now you have ASL again."

It is readily apparent that the only agreement we are going to come to is to disagree.
please show me the line that says "delete the ASL rule from the model" or the line that state "if it is ignored it does not exist" :rolleyes:

so according to you I can give my great weapon wielding graveguard ASF twice effectively giving them ASF because it is canceled on the first application and does not exist anymore... either you handle it one way or the other way. at the moment you are just inventing stuff how you like it.

hamsterwheel
15-09-2011, 15:28
I have a question concerning this debate. I'm having a difficult time finding the text that states that multiple special rules do not stack?

I've found this text in the FAQ:

Page 66 – Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to
“[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However,
unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit
from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of
the first paragraph

Now my interpretation of this text indicates that special rules stack, but you can't gain a benefit to having the same rule multiple times. Not only that, but that means that if a special rule doesn't grant you a benefit but instead of a limitation, then it's possible those limitations do stack.

Can anyone fine me the relevant text indicating that Special rules do not stack?

Liber
15-09-2011, 15:39
what do you not understand?
1. special rules dont stack
2. great weapon wielding units already have ASL

great weapon apply ASL on the model thus any HE wielding a great weapon has the ASL rule ALWAYS. it does not matter that Speed of Awesomeness trumps it, the rule is on the model.



i see your problem now.


hopefully i can explain why everyone has come to the conclusion that we have:

what the high elf armybook says is that high elves have the asf rule regardless of what weapon they are using.

to re-phrase again just to make sure there is no confusion for you:

the high elves are immune to being affected by what weapon they weild.
it is spelled out in the SoA rule in their armybook.

that does not imply (nor is it stated anywhere) that they are immune to ASL from any and all sources. just weapons exactly as it states in their own armybook under the very rule in question.

so if the high elf armybook said "high elves can never strike last, no matter what" or "high elves can never be affected by ASL" then you might have a point. but you don't. all it states (very simply) is that what weapon they use has nothing to do with their ability to strike first.

luckily, this has nothing to do with being surrounded by an aura of super freezing cold. or any other external force that might affect them. nor should it. SoA only only covers the weapon that is in their use. isn't it nice when the rules are not only clear, but also sensible?

so yup, in conclusion high elves' ability to have asf despite weapon type, has nothing at all to do with being immune to a special affect forcing ASL on all units. just because using great weapons is the most common form of ASL does not mean that all forms should be treated the same (as they are not the same.)



i feel the need to post an example:

lets pretend i have a special character named bob. bob has a special rule for his special character self that states:

"bob is a master of ballistics, he can use move or fire weapons as if they were quick to fire weapons"

great for bob right?

ok, now lets say a spell is cast at bob that says "the unit afflicted by the spell cannot move and fire any weapon"

sucks for bob, he can't move and fire.

now, if bobs special rule had been changed too: "bob is a master of ballistics, he can always move and fire any weapon"

then bob would ignore the spell effect as well.

theunwantedbeing
15-09-2011, 15:40
how do you come to this conclusion?

Second Page (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1920636a_FAQ_Warhammer_Rulebook__V1_5.pdf).
Multiples of the same special rule do not stack.

Implying you can be given the same special rule more than once, there is simply no benefit unless stated otherwise.
So you can have ASL form multiple sources.

The Speed of Asuryan rule negates the effect of ASL from the great weapon, however you still have the ASF rule from the thundertusk which isn't ignored by Speed of Asuryan.

So you have ASF + ASL in effect.
Simple.

cptcosmic
15-09-2011, 15:49
Second Page (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1920636a_FAQ_Warhammer_Rulebook__V1_5.pdf).
Multiples of the same special rule do not stack.

Implying you can be given the same special rule more than once, there is simply no benefit unless stated otherwise.

I never said you cant be given the same special rule more then once, it just does not stack. you said by yourself, it does have no effect. HE already have ASL, you give them ASL again and it has no effect like you have said it yourself? you contradict yourself now.

Loopstah
15-09-2011, 15:56
The Speed of Asuryan rule negates the effect of ASL from the great weapon, however you still have the ASF rule from the thundertusk which isn't ignored by Speed of Asuryan.

It negates the effect but not the rule.

Swordmasters have the following rules:

ASL from Great Weapon (they ignore the effect of this due to Speed of Asuryan but still have the rule)
ASF from Speed of Asuryan

If you then give them ASL from the Thundertusk they then have:

ASL from Great Weapon (ignored)
ASL from Thundertusk (has no effect due to already having the rule, even though they ignore the effects of the first case)
ASF from Speed of Asuryan. (same as usual)

Stupid but that's RAW, it's 100% probably not RAI in my opinion and should be FAQ'd but that's how it reads.

theunwantedbeing
15-09-2011, 15:59
I never said you cant be given the same special rule more then once, it just does not stack. you said by yourself, it does have no effect. HE already have ASL, you give them ASL again and it has no effect like you have said it yourself? you contradict yourself now.

No contradiction.
They ignore ASL from the great weapon.
They do not ignore ASL from the thundertusk.

It's like having stubborn normally and from steadfast.
You are not extra stubborn by having both, similarly if you are stopped from being steadfast then you do not lose the initial stubborn.

antihelten
15-09-2011, 16:04
I've gotta agree with cptcosmic here, if SM strike at initiative when affected by a thundertusk, then the second instance of the ASL rule (from the thundertusk) obviously had an additional effect to the first instance of the ASL rule (which had zero effect), and this is prohibited by the FAQ*.

*Assuming one reads "gains no additional benefit" from the FAQ, as "gains no additional effect", since the effect of ASL obviously isn't a benefit.

Liber
15-09-2011, 16:05
ASL from Great Weapon (ignored)


yup. from the great weapon. which is only ignored because it is from a great weapon. read again if it was not from a great weapon (say from a thundertusk) then it would not be ignored


the army book is very clear on the issue that they simply ignore the effect from great weapons. it is specific on this. so therefore you can easily conclude that it is not ignored from other sources. nor should it be as i have stated already as it doesn't make any sense. so be happy.

Liber
15-09-2011, 16:10
I've gotta agree with cptcosmic here, if SM strike at initiative when affected by a thundertusk, then the second instance of the ASL rule (from the thundertusk) obviously had an additional effect to the first instance of the ASL rule (which had zero effect), and this is prohibited by the FAQ*.

*Assuming one reads "gains no additional benefit" from the FAQ, as "gains no additional effect", since the effect of ASL obviously isn't a benefit.


but you're acting as if it says that high elves are immune to ASL. they are not. they are immune to great weapons causing it (i get the feeling not everyone owns the high elf armybook, i do) so to go and assume that they would be immune from anything else other than great weapons is pretty much putting words onto the army book that are not there.

i mean the writers went out of their way to be specific for a reason. listen to them.


here T10 said this earlier"

"As far as High Elves are concerned, they have the Speed of Assuryan, which is ASF with specific permission to override the ASL of their great weapons. So adding an ASF from another source just means they strike at initiative order."

you cannot dispute it, it is plain as day, in the high elf armybook. they ignore the asl from gw's. to go and assume that they ignore all asl all the time from any and all sources is asinine at best.

antihelten
15-09-2011, 16:10
yup. from the great weapon. which is only ignored because it is from a great weapon. read again if it was not from a great weapon (say from a thundertusk) then it would not be ignored


the army book is very clear on the issue that they simply ignore the effect from great weapons. it is specific on this. so therefore you can easily conclude that it is not ignored from other sources. nor should it be as i have stated already as it doesn't make any sense. so be happy.

I don't think anyone is arguing that HE ignores the ASL from the thundertusk due to SOA, but rather that they ignore it due the stipulation in the faq that you get no additional effect from multiple instances of the same special rules, and them suddenly striking at initiative order would obviously be an additional effect.

Loopstah
15-09-2011, 16:12
the army book is very clear on the issue that they simply ignore the effect from great weapons. it is specific on this. so therefore you can easily conclude that it is not ignored from other sources. nor should it be as i have stated already as it doesn't make any sense. so be happy.

You're missing the point that any further ASL effects on the unit do not stack with the original ASL from their Great Weapons.

They don't ignore the ASL from other sources it just has no effect as they already have it.

cptcosmic
15-09-2011, 16:18
No contradiction.
They ignore ASL from the great weapon.
They do not ignore ASL from the thundertusk.

It's like having stubborn normally and from steadfast.
You are not extra stubborn by having both, similarly if you are stopped from being steadfast then you do not lose the initial stubborn.
yes you are contradicting yourself. HE already have ASL and applying it again has no effect (as you said by yourself). you do not get an extra ASL by being affected from other sources (like you said yourself and also shown in your stubborn exampe). there is no way you can apply ASL on great weapon wielding HE units unless you can find a way to remove the great weapons from them.

you are also confusing great weapons with ASL. great weapon is not a special rule by itself, carrying a great weapon only applies the ASL rule to the model.

so either in my future games my vampire gw graveguard can get ASF by applying it twice on them OR my HE gw wielding units cannot get ASL. pick one and stick to it and stop contradicting yourself.

Mr_Rose
15-09-2011, 16:24
So the net result of your way is that swordmasters strike before spearmen if both units are in the ASL zone?

That sounds ridiculous.

So here's something to match: The revised wording of the general rule for combining special rules says you gain no additional benefit from having two of the same rule. Since striking last is clearly a penalty, it is not governed by that bit so you can have multiple ASLs in effect. Blam, RAW.

cptcosmic
15-09-2011, 16:31
So the net result of your way is that swordmasters strike before spearmen if both units are in the ASL zone?

That sounds ridiculous.

So here's something to match: The revised wording of the general rule for combining special rules says you gain no additional benefit from having two of the same rule. Since striking last is clearly a penalty, it is not governed by that bit so you can have multiple ASLs in effect. Blam, RAW.
if you go this way Mr. Trolltastic... gaining "no additional benefit" is the same as gaining nothing or gaining something else other than a benefit e.g.a penalty. no rule broken.

hamsterwheel
15-09-2011, 16:31
I noticed no one took the bait I offered earlier in the thread?

The FAQed text does not say that special rules do not stack, nor does it say that limitations do not stack, it says that "Benefits" from the same special rule do not stack. Can someone point out the benefits of ASL?

I agree with theunwantedbag and T10, they strike at Initiative but only because SOA ignores the ASL rule from the greatweapon.

geldedgoat
15-09-2011, 16:52
SoA: Grants ASF, "regardless of the weapon they are wielding."
great weapon: Grants ASL.
Thundertusk: Grants ASL.

All three of these rules will apply to a unit of Swordmasters in range of a Thundertusk, but only one of the ASL rules will have an effect; i.e., the Swordmasters can't go 'double ASL.'

Now, the SoA rule ignores the effect of the great weapon ASL normally, but that doesn't mean it ignores the effect of all ASL sources. One source, the great weapon, is ignored, but the other still hangs around and, not having anything preventing it from doing so, applies. The rule book errata changes nothing in this case, as no additional effect is being applied by having the same rule twice; one effect is ignored, the other applies.

Result? The elves would strike in I order without rerolls.

b4z
15-09-2011, 16:53
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316495

Loopstah
15-09-2011, 16:56
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316495

Odd how so many people can agree that special rules don't stack and then ignore it to make their conclusions.

GodlessM
15-09-2011, 17:32
Not sure what the issue is here. Speed of Asuryan only grants ASF despite what weapons the unit have, so if they gain ASL from something other than a weapon the two cancel out. Therefore I order as per the regular unambiguous rules.

Voss
15-09-2011, 17:36
i completely understand this.

but they still need to write an afq for the thundertusk for what happens with high elves with great weapons.

they aren't gonna write anything about the thundertusk on the high elf faq thats for sure.

so my point stands as its what is practical. the high elves are at fault for the confusion but it doesn't matter, the confusion is there and the way to fix it (untill a new high elf armybook comes out) is to faq the OK.

No, thats ridiculous. The thundertusk rule merely gives ASL.
What they need to do is add a section to the HE faq which deals with what happens if ASL is granted from _any other source_. Just FAQing the thundertusk does very little. Additionally, its a problem thats totally unique to the HE... and actually only to swordmasters or characters carrying great weapons. As folks observed, it affects everything else in the HE list without ambiguity.

We know what happens when any normal unit is given ASL. They strike last.
We know what happens when any normal ASF unit is given ASL. They strike in init order.
The only 'problem' is Speed of Asuryan, so any clarification needs happen in the HE FAQ, because it interacts the same way with anything that gives ASL, not just the thundertusk, and is only a problem with the HE.


Just an aside as well, the special rules section of the rulebook is very clear that special rules do stack, unless explicitly stated otherwise. For several it has no benefit or change (and I admittedly can't remember if ASL has a no stacking clause), but it seems relavant to the stacking arguments.

Mr_Rose
15-09-2011, 18:16
if you go this way Mr. Trolltastic... gaining "no additional benefit" is the same as gaining nothing or gaining something else other than a benefit e.g.a penalty. no rule broken.
Again you reply without answering the question asked.
Are you going to?
Just in case you missed it in your haste: Do HE Swordmasters strike before, after, or simultaneously with, HE Spearmen, assuming both units are fighting the same Thundertusk?

Loopstah
15-09-2011, 18:23
Do HE Swordmasters strike before, after, or simultaneously with, HE Spearmen, assuming both units are fighting the same Thundertusk?

Before as the Swordmasters have ASF while the Spearmen strike in initiative order.

Clearly the Swordmasters regularly practice naked in the mountains of Saphery during a snowstorm.

T10
15-09-2011, 18:26
I forget. Are Swordmasters Initiative 5 or 6?

T10
15-09-2011, 18:28
Before as the Swordmasters have ASF while the Spearmen have ASL.


What?

-T10

Loopstah
15-09-2011, 18:56
What?

-T10

My mistake I meant the spearmen strike in Initiative order.

Lex
15-09-2011, 19:21
You can't possess ASF and ASL and not swing in I order, as the rules state they cancel each other out. There is no wording within SoA or the FAQ that overrides that rule. SoA and the FAQ merely override the fact that a model with a weapon that confers ASL does not receive ASL. As there is no ASL on the model (or it is ignored for all purposes), the ASL from the Thundertusk is then conferred to the elf, thereby canceling the ASF and forcing the model to strike in I order.

Loopstah
15-09-2011, 19:28
You can't possess ASF and ASL and not swing in I order, as the rules state they cancel each other out. There is no wording within SoA or the FAQ that overrides that rule. SoA and the FAQ merely override the fact that a model with a weapon that confers ASL does not receive ASL. As there is no ASL on the model (or it is ignored for all purposes), the ASL from the Thundertusk is then conferred to the elf, thereby canceling the ASF and forcing the model to strike in I order.

Find me a quote that says Speed of Asuryan removes the ASL rule from Great Weapons and I will agree with you.

Until then I say you can't give ASL to something that already has ASL even if they ignore the effects of it.

Once again there is a difference between having a rule and ignoring its effects and not having a rule.

I completely agree they should strike in I order but I'm just following the RAW interpretation.

shakedown47
15-09-2011, 19:46
Loopstah had it right on the second post of this thread. Three pages later (and more to come, I'm sure) he's still right.

Loopstah
15-09-2011, 19:54
Loopstah had it right on the second post of this thread. Three pages later (and more to come, I'm sure) he's still right.

That upsets me because now I have to disagree with some agreeing with me because I've since changed my opinion. :D

Lex
15-09-2011, 20:02
Find me a quote that says Speed of Asuryan removes the ASL rule from Great Weapons and I will agree with you.

Until then I say you can't give ASL to something that already has ASL even if they ignore the effects of it.

Once again there is a difference between having a rule and ignoring its effects and not having a rule.

I completely agree they should strike in I order but I'm just following the RAW interpretation.

Find me a quote that says a model can possess both ASF and ASL without them canceling each other out. There is no explicit instance. As others have argued you can't benefit (negatively benefit ;)) from the same special rule twice. It does not say that you can't possess the same special rule twice in fact, you explicitly can:

"However, unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit from having the same special rule multiple times."

If one instance of a special rule provides no benefit, i.e. is ignored, then it does not provide an additional benefit (penalty). Now to those who may use this for VC, the benefits (penalties) still exist no matter how many times you cast VHDM as the benefit/penalty is to cancel each other.

Yrrdead
15-09-2011, 20:03
Yeah but your current stance is the correct one. Correct by RAW. Though I think everyone recognizes the absurdity of this.

If you are a HE with a GW vs Thundertusk = ASF
If you are a HE with any other weapon vs Thundertusk = Strike at Initiative

....:wtf:....

narrativium
15-09-2011, 20:04
You can have ASL from two different sources. They just don't stack.

Swordmasters with great weapons near a Thundertusk have ASF from one source and ASL from two sources. The Swordmasters ignore the ASL from one of those sources but because they don't ignore it from both sources, ASL applies and cancels out with the ASF; ergo, they strike in Initiative order.

Picture a similar rule: Wild Riders have two ward saves (due to being a forest spirit and having Talismanic Tattoos). These ward saves do not stack. However, if the Wild Riders are hit by a magical attack, one of those ward saves is negated. This does not negate all Wild Rider ward saves, just the Forest Spirit one; they still get their Talismanic Tattoos save. In the same way, Speed of Asuryan negates one source of ASL, it does not negate all sources of ASL.

Lex
15-09-2011, 20:08
Correct by RAW. Though I think everyone recognizes the absurdity of this.

I don't know that a strict RAW exists as there may be conflicting rules/rulings across several documents.

Yrrdead
15-09-2011, 20:20
You can have ASL from two different sources. They just don't stack.

Swordmasters with great weapons near a Thundertusk have ASF from one source and ASL from two sources. The Swordmasters ignore the ASL from one of those sources but because they don't ignore it from both sources, ASL applies and cancels out with the ASF; ergo, they strike in Initiative order.

Picture a similar rule: Wild Riders have two ward saves (due to being a forest spirit and having Talismanic Tattoos). These ward saves do not stack. However, if the Wild Riders are hit by a magical attack, one of those ward saves is negated. This does not negate all Wild Rider ward saves, just the Forest Spirit one; they still get their Talismanic Tattoos save. In the same way, Speed of Asuryan negates one source of ASL, it does not negate all sources of ASL.


You are correct you can have the same special rule multiple times but as Lex has mentioned


[...]However, unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit from having the same special rule multiple times.[...]

Benefit in this case is a penalty rather than a bonus again as Lex has stated.

The fact that SoA is allowing HE to ignore the benefit of ASL doesn't mean that it isn't there. The wording of SoA and the HE FAQ don't remove the ASL or "cancel" it. Which is why the addition of ASL from the Thundertusk doesn't matter for GW wielding HE's.


A ward save != a special rule. A ward save is an entirely different case. Doesn't apply here.




On actual gaming note. I would play this as all HE will be attacking at Initiative with no rerolls if within a Tusks aura.

narrativium
15-09-2011, 21:01
I'm not following the counter-argument.

High Elves have ASF regardless of the weapon they're wielding. So, if they're armed with a hand weapon, they have the ASF rule. If they're armed with a great weapon, they have the ASF rule. The FAQ confirms this interaction with weapons.

Neither the army book nor the FAQ state that the High Elves ignore ASL, only ASL from the weapons they wield. Therefore ASL from other sources - the Thundertusk, the Dragonhide Banner, the Amber Pendant - give them the ASL rule, exactly as they say they do.

So, now they have ASF (regardless of weapon) and ASL. They have both, so those cancel, so they attack at initiative order.

Loopstah
15-09-2011, 21:17
I'm not following the counter-argument.


The counter-argument is that since they already have ASL from the Great Weapons (ASL being a rule of Great Weapons) then they can not be affected by other instances of ASL due to the fact special rules only stack if they say they do.

You can't give ASL to any other unit with Great Weapons in the game as they already have it.

Swordmasters also have ASL from their weapons but they ignore the effect, they do not remove the ASL rule from the Great Weapon.

Since the Thundertusk is trying to give ASL to a unit that already has the rule it has no effect as you can't stack the effects.

Since the second instance of ASL can't stack with the first the Swordmasters don't lose ASF as they are not gaining ASL from the Thundertusk (due to already having the rule, even though they ignore it).

A lot of people are getting confused thinking that the argument is that Speed of Asuryan ignores all ASL effects but it isn't as any other High Elf not armed with a Great Weapon would be affected by the Thundertusk, only HE already possessing the ASL rule are immune to further instances of ASL as they already have it (Yes they ignore the effect, but they still have it).

narrativium
15-09-2011, 21:20
But the effect isn't stacking. You're getting ASL from two sources and you're still only applying it once. Ignoring it from one source doesn't ignore it from the other.

Loopstah
15-09-2011, 21:30
But the effect isn't stacking. You're getting ASL from two sources and you're still only applying it once. Ignoring it from one source doesn't ignore it from the other.

The fact they ignore the effect from the first source is irrelevant. You can't stack the effect from a second source on the effect from the first source just because they ignore the effect of the first source. The effect is still there they just ignore it.

IrishDelinquent
15-09-2011, 21:37
The counter-argument is that since they already have ASL from the Great Weapons (ASL being a rule of Great Weapons) then they can not be affected by other instances of ASL due to the fact special rules only stack if they say they do.

You can't give ASL to any other unit with Great Weapons in the game as they already have it.

May I ask where that rule exists? According to the FAQ, a unit "gains no additional benefit from having the same special rule multiple times". This does NOT mean a unit cannot have a special rule multiple times, it just means that they gain no additional benefit from having it more than once. It means no double regeneration, no double armour piercing, etc. I think the primary reason this clause exists, especially in regards to ASF vs. ASL, is so that a unit with ASF and great weapons cannot be made to strike last. Without this clause from the FAQ, ASF and ASL would negate each other (model strikes at I), but then a second application of ASL would make them strike last.

To summarize, the FAQ says nothing about a unit not being able to have multiple applications of a special rule, it just cannot be affected by it more than once.


Swordmasters also have ASL from their weapons but they ignore the effect, they do not remove the ASL rule from the Great Weapon.

Since the Thundertusk is trying to give ASL to a unit that already has the rule it has no effect as you can't stack the effects.

There is no stacking of the effect. The Speed of Asuryan rule means that the High Elf ignores the ASL penalty from it's great weapon (which means that it is not under any effect from ASL). Then the Thundertusk's aura kicks in, which the High Elf is not immune to, thereby suffering ASL.


Since the second instance of ASL can't stack with the first the Swordmasters don't lose ASF as they are not gaining ASL from the Thundertusk (due to already having the rule, even though they ignore it).

Another problem I see with this argument is where did this implied order of operations come from? Why is the ASL from the Great Weapon always applied before the effect of the Thundertusk? Through my reading of the rulebook I couldn't find anything that told me that a unit's special rules are applied in a particular order. Why is the High Elf's great weapon "penalty" applied first, thereby making them mysteriously immune to any other penalty from the same special rule? Why isn't the Thundertusk's aura applied first?


A lot of people are getting confused thinking that the argument is that Speed of Asuryan ignores all ASL effects but it isn't as any other High Elf not armed with a Great Weapon would be affected by the Thundertusk, only HE already possessing the ASL rule are immune to further instances of ASL as they already have it (Yes they ignore the effect, but they still have it).

Ummm no, we're not confused about the argument, at least not me personally. I don't think anybody who has responded to the thread has made that mistake. I'm confused why, through a series of loopholes and shoddy reasoning, a High Elf with a great weapon is protected from the Thundertusk's aura, while a regular High Elf is S.O.L. This seems like a major misstep in logic. Again, show me something that lists an order of operations to the applications of special rules. Because there isn't, I vote that the Thundertusk's aura take effect before the Great Weapon's ASL penalty.

narrativium
15-09-2011, 22:07
The fact they ignore the effect from the first source is irrelevant. You can't stack the effect from a second source on the effect from the first source just because they ignore the effect of the first source. The effect is still there they just ignore it.
No, they don't ignore it. High Elves have ASF regardless of the weapon they're wielding. They would only ignore the Thundertusk ASL if they were wielding the Thundertusk as a weapon.

I didn't say ASL stacked. That would mean you apply its effect twice. I'm saying you apply the effect precisely once. Two sources, resulting in one effect. The High Elf has the ASL rule from a source he can't ignore, which cancels out ASF.

Loopstah
15-09-2011, 22:12
No, they don't ignore it. High Elves have ASF regardless of the weapon they're wielding. They would only ignore the Thundertusk ASL if they were wielding the Thundertusk as a weapon.

They have Great Weapons, they have ASL, this should cancel out the ASF, the fact they still have ASF means they are ignoring the ASL otherwise it would cancel out. You can't not ignore something you are ignoring.


I didn't say ASL stacked. That would mean you apply its effect twice. I'm saying you apply the effect precisely once. Two sources, resulting in one effect. The High Elf has the ASL rule from a source he can't ignore, which cancels out ASF.

You apply the effect twice, the first one they ignore because they have SoA that allows them to. The second time doesn't stack as they already have it.

Can you give a unit of Greatswords ASL from the Thundertusk? How about Great Weapon Grave Guard? Khorne Marauders with Great Weapons? Dwarf Hammerers?

If you can give these ASL from the Thundertusk then I will admit you can give Swordmasters ASL from the Thundertusk.

narrativium
15-09-2011, 22:23
Yes, you can give the Greatswords ASL from the Thundertusk.

And having two sources of ASL, which don't stack, they would... always strike last.

Because it doesn't stack. A unit of Greatswords hit by the Dragonhide Banner and the Thundertusk (three sources of ASL!) would have the ASL rule, would apply it once, and strike last.

Simultaneous with the Thunderstomp attack. Because that's ASL as well.

I can put a Firebelly in a unit with the Flaming Banner. That wouldn't make its Flaming Attacks any flamier, because it doesn't stack. I can make Steadfast units Stubborn, and it wouldn't make them more likely to pass a Break test, because it doesn't stack. I can give a Sword of Swift Slaying to a High Elf and it wouldn't strike any earlier, because ASF doesn't stack. I could give the Shrieking Blade to a Tyrant, and he wouldn't become any scarier, because Fear doesn't stack. I can cast Hunter's Moons on the Mournfangs and they won't roll any more dice to charge with because Swiftstride doesn't stack.

You can have more than one of a given special rule. Having it multiple times doesn't make it stack (apply more than once) unless it says it does, like Extra Attack does. You apply it once, unless you ignore all the sources of that rule.

Loopstah
15-09-2011, 22:28
Exactly, you apply ASL from the Great Weapons the Swordmasters are wielding (because it's a rule of Great Weapons) then you ignore it due to the rule of Speed of Asuryan which says High Elves ASF with any weapon.

You apply it once and not again, regardless of the fact they get to ignore the one application of it.

By saying Swordmasters with a Thundertusk strike at initiative you are applying the ASL twice even though only one has an effect.

Yrrdead
15-09-2011, 22:29
it is nonsensical and illogical. That isn't the point of this discussion. At least I don't think it is Loopstah's or my point. The point is in the framework of the rules HE w/GW are "protected" from the Thundertusk's aura.

The thing you are missing narrativium is that High Elves have ASL just like Greatswords, Sure they get ASL from the thundertusk. But they don't gain any benefit(penalty) because they already have it. Does that make sense?

narrativium
15-09-2011, 22:43
I am applying ASL once and once only. It's cancelling out the ASF of Speed of Asuryan.

If Speed of Asuryan meant High Elves get ASF regardless of nearby talismans, or regardless of magical banners with breath weapon attacks with special rules, or regardless of nearby monsters with special rules, then you would have an argument.

If Speed of Asuryan said you ignored all sources of ASL, then you would have an argument.

If Swordmasters had the ability to wield a Thundertusk, you would have an argument.

Speed of Asuryan only applies to the weapon being wielded. You ignore the great weapon's ASL, not the Thundertusk's.

narrativium
15-09-2011, 22:49
Exactly, you apply ASL from the Great Weapons the Swordmasters are wielding (because it's a rule of Great Weapons) then you ignore it due to the rule of Speed of Asuryan which says High Elves ASF with any weapon. If you were supposed to ignore it, why did you apply it?

Apply the Thundertusk ASL to the Speed of Asuryan ASF, and the Swordmaster strikes at initiative order.

Then you can apply the great weapon ASL, except that Speed of Asuryan says you don't, and it doesn't stack anyway, so you ignore the application of great weapon ASL and don't apply it.

ASF applied once. ASL applied once. (Secondary ASL ignored for two reasons and not applied.) Swordmasters striking at Initiative order. Simple.

geldedgoat
15-09-2011, 22:49
Until then I say you can't give ASL to something that already has ASL even if they ignore the effects of it.

Of course you can, the unit just wouldn't be affected cumulatively.

Loopstah
15-09-2011, 23:23
If you were supposed to ignore it, why did you apply it?

Apply the Thundertusk ASL to the Speed of Asuryan ASF, and the Swordmaster strikes at initiative order.

Then you can apply the great weapon ASL, except that Speed of Asuryan says you don't, and it doesn't stack anyway, so you ignore the application of great weapon ASL and don't apply it.

ASF applied once. ASL applied once. (Secondary ASL ignored for two reasons and not applied.) Swordmasters striking at Initiative order. Simple.

I'm pretty sure the swordmasters start the battle with their weapons and not within 6" of a thundertusk.

narrativium
15-09-2011, 23:27
I'm pretty sure of that too. All they have to do is stay more than 6" from the Thundertusk, and their ASF won't get cancelled out.

Mr_Rose
15-09-2011, 23:33
I'm pretty sure the swordmasters start the battle with their weapons and not within 6" of a thundertusk.
Yes but why, once again, are you applying the effect of the ASL from the weapons when the ASL from the great weapons specifically has no effect?

Look, it has been determined that you can have a rule multiple times, right? And also that you can't gain the effect of a rule more than once, right?

A swordmaster nowhere near a Thundertusk has ASL once and gains the effect of it zero times, because that's how the other part of their rule works. Once they move into range of a Thundertusk, they have ASL twice and “gain the benefit” of it once. This satisfies all conditions and results in a net of swordmasters who strike in initiative order, because they also have ASF.

Liber
16-09-2011, 01:16
The fact they ignore the effect from the first source is irrelevant. You can't stack the effect from a second source on the effect from the first source just because they ignore the effect of the first source. The effect is still there they just ignore it.

you (and others) seem to be confused on what stacking is.

by your definition anything happening twice is "stacking" and this is just false.

you can have two seperate ward saves that do not stack. (someone posted a good example of this which was ignored)

to stack something is to add the effect together...which you can't do.

so (and i feel i am wasting my time saying this as others i think have already tried to reach you on this one) the ASL is not stacking. there are simply two seperate instances of it.

and AS IT STATES in the high elf armybook elves strike with asf despite the weapon they wield meaning that they only can ignore the source of asl if it is a great weapon. as that is all that is provided for in the rules. end of story.


((this was supposed to be in one post, but it continues below in a seperate post for some reason >.<

Liber
16-09-2011, 01:21
The fact they ignore the effect from the first source is irrelevant. You can't stack the effect from a second source on the effect from the first source just because they ignore the effect of the first source. The effect is still there they just ignore it.


you are (continually) missing one huge point. reading the high elf SoA rules would help.

take that post you made above, and add the phrase from great weapons all over the place. and then you should see your mistake.

"the fact they ignore the effect from the first source is irrelevant"

NO it is very relevant as the "first source" is the only source that they can possibly "ignore the effect from" which is great weapons as stated in the damn rules

now if you are tempted to say "but special rules can't stack" then kindly read my post above to see that getting ASL twice from two different sources is not "stacking" it is simply something happening twice. like 2 wardsaves or being shot by a brace of pistols.

badguyshaveallthefun
16-09-2011, 01:29
This is the way that I interpret it:
When swordmasters come in range of a Thundertusk they have 3 rules working for them:
ASF from Speed of Asuryan
ASL from their greatweapons
ASL from the Aura around the T Tusk.

The rulebook says that except in certain circumstances (and the rulebook is specific; fight in extra ranks, additional attack) multiple special rules that are the same DO NOT STACK. Therefore, the Swordmasters are under the rules: ASF and ASL; the rulebook then tells us what happens in this circumstance: They cancel and blows are struck in initiative order.

Simple.

IrishDelinquent
16-09-2011, 04:17
I feel that a major part of my argument was overlooked, and actually goes quite a ways to avoiding this issue. To those who are saying the Thundertusk's aura has no additional effect on a unit of High elves with great weapons, please show me the order of operations stating that the Always Strike Last penalty from the Great Weapon takes effect BEFORE the Always Strike Last penalty from the Thundertusk? If there is no ruling (which I could not find), then why does the Great Weapon version of Alway Strike Last (which conveniently has no effect on High Elves) apply first instead of the Thundertusk version of Always Strike Last (against which the High Elves are all S.O.L)?

Yrrdead
16-09-2011, 05:35
I feel that a major part of my argument was overlooked, and actually goes quite a ways to avoiding this issue. To those who are saying the Thundertusk's aura has no additional effect on a unit of High elves with great weapons, please show me the order of operations stating that the Always Strike Last penalty from the Great Weapon takes effect BEFORE the Always Strike Last penalty from the Thundertusk? If there is no ruling (which I could not find), then why does the Great Weapon version of Alway Strike Last (which conveniently has no effect on High Elves) apply first instead of the Thundertusk version of Always Strike Last (against which the High Elves are all S.O.L)?

By the simple fact that is how a stack works? FILO or LIFO if you prefer. :P

timmytool
16-09-2011, 06:32
ok 2 senarios one in game one not

in game
I play Dwarfs with GW they get ASF from something then I get within the 6" of Thundertusk do I now strike last? no. ASL cant affect a model twice similarly a GW model with ASF twice will only strike at I not first or last.

out of game
I have a assistant I ignore that assistant, the assistant still has a affect the affect is that I have to ignore that assistant.(or is it the assistant tries to help, the fact I ignore it is inconsequential)

the FAQ does not say "However,
unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit
from having the same special rule multiple times with the same identical affect.”

Munin
16-09-2011, 07:16
Earlier in the thread the main argument of the "Swordmasters always ASF" was that the ASL special rule and the ASL effect was two different thing. This meant that the SM couldn't get the ASL special rule twice. This was what was making that argument bearing water.

However, now as IrishDelinquent and Narrativum pointed out its not special rules dont stack, but the effects. And since the SoA rule says to ignore the effect and not the special rule (which was the main argument) then there shouldn't be much left to argue about right?

Yrrdead
16-09-2011, 07:46
Earlier in the thread the main argument of the "Swordmasters always ASF" was that the ASL special rule and the ASL effect was two different thing. This meant that the SM couldn't get the ASL special rule twice. This was what was making that argument bearing water.

However, now as IrishDelinquent and Narrativum pointed out its not special rules dont stack, but the effects. And since the SoA rule says to ignore the effect and not the special rule (which was the main argument) then there shouldn't be much left to argue about right?

The argument hasn't changed. SoA doesn't say that.

Munin
16-09-2011, 08:00
ignoring is not the same as removing. they still have ASL on them due to the great weapons but it has no effect.


The argument hasn't changed. SoA doesn't say that.

Not litteraly, but it either means to either ignore the ASL special rule or the effect of ASL (provided by GWs), what else could it mean? In either case it doesn't matter.

Yrrdead
16-09-2011, 08:16
Ok , I feel that it matters. That the literal rules are important. Interpretation and inference are slippery slopes to be on in a rules debate.

That is my point though. If SoA were worded differently than we wouldn't be having this fun little discussion. How bored would we be if GW wrote airtight legal brief style rules?

cptcosmic
16-09-2011, 08:47
if you are going this way I will jump on that wagon too. I say now, because actually when I have ASF and ASL on my unit both give me no benefit because they cancel out thus any unit with ASL can get ASF twice.

I will now run my greatweapon wielding graveguard horde and apply ASF on them twice thus effectively giving them ASF in the end. :rolleyes:

have fun with your arguments, they turned against you. :D

either you handle it one way or another, not both depending on how you like it.

Yrrdead
16-09-2011, 09:01
if you are going this way I will jump on that wagon too. I say now, because actually when I have ASF and ASL on my unit both give me no benefit because they cancel out thus any unit with ASL can get ASF twice.

I will now run my greatweapon wielding graveguard horde and apply ASF on them twice thus effectively giving them ASF in the end. :rolleyes:

have fun with your arguments, they turned against you. :D

either you handle it one way or another, not both depending on how you like it.

What? ASF+ASL do cancel out. I'm not sure why you are being sarcastic.


[...]If a model has both this rule and Always Strikes First, the two cancel out and neither applies so use the model's Initiative.

narrativium
16-09-2011, 12:08
if you are going this way I will jump on that wagon too. I say now, because actually when I have ASF and ASL on my unit both give me no benefit because they cancel out thus any unit with ASL can get ASF twice.It can receive the rule twice. It can only apply it once, because it doesn't stack.

Example of stacking: Extra Attack stacks. A model with Extra Attack and Frenzy has Extra Attack twice. If Extra Attack did not stack, then it wouldn't matter how many times you acquired the Extra Attack rule; a model with Extra Attack and Frenzy would only gain +1 attack from this combination. But because it stacks, the model gains +2 Attacks, not +1.


I will now run my greatweapon wielding graveguard horde and apply ASF on them twice thus effectively giving them ASF in the end. :rolleyes:No, you will not. You have ASF from two sources, ASL from one source. You apply ASF once, because it doesn't stack. You apply ASL once. They cancel out. The Grave Guard strike at Initiative order.

The High Elves with the Thundertusk are in a similar situation: they have ASF once, from Speed of Asuryan. They have ASL once. These cancel out. The fact that Swordmasters have great weapons is irrelevant because the Speed of Asuryan ignores rules such as ASL of the weapons being wielded. If this was not the case they would have ASF once and ASL twice; these would each be applied once and would cancel out.


either you handle it one way or another, not both depending on how you like it.
I chose to handle it in the consistent way stated by the rulebook.

Memnos
16-09-2011, 12:14
they actually should strike by I order but by RAW they still strike first. :D

the model already has ASL because it is applied on it from the great weapon. SoA skips ASL but does not remove it thus the model still has the ASL rule and special rules do not stack does not matter how many sources :cool:

in short: all great weapon wielding HE units have protection from ASL effects haha

This is flatly false. Speed of Asuryan ignores ASL caused by weapons. Please read the rule.

The ASL caused by the Thundertusk is not caused by weapons. It is caused by a beast. Speed of Asuryan also does not ignore the Nurgle Gift.

Memnos
16-09-2011, 12:22
Actually, it depends. To throw a monkeywrench in, by your argument it depends on whose turn it is, since the person whose turn it's in decides when effects apply.

Speed of Asuryan grants ASF regardless of the weapon wielded.

If the Ogre player charges and applies the ASL from his rule first, Speed of Asuryan gets negated. At this point, he can then apply the ASL rule from Great Weapons.

You will note that Speed of Asuryan specifically doesn't grant the ability to strike at Initiative Order regardless of weapon. Because of this, ASL is applied as the Speed of Asuryan rule no longer applies to the situation.

However, if you apply the ASL from the Great Weapon first, then they strike in initiative order. As orders are determined by the player whose turn it is, this would mean that in the High Elf turn, the High Elves strike in Initiative Order and in the Ogre turn, they always strike last.


It can receive the rule twice. It can only apply it once, because it doesn't stack.

Example of stacking: Extra Attack stacks. A model with Extra Attack and Frenzy has Extra Attack twice. If Extra Attack did not stack, then it wouldn't matter how many times you acquired the Extra Attack rule; a model with Extra Attack and Frenzy would only gain +1 attack from this combination. But because it stacks, the model gains +2 Attacks, not +1.

No, you will not. You have ASF from two sources, ASL from one source. You apply ASF once, because it doesn't stack. You apply ASL once. They cancel out. The Grave Guard strike at Initiative order.

The High Elves with the Thundertusk are in a similar situation: they have ASF once, from Speed of Asuryan. They have ASL once. These cancel out. The fact that Swordmasters have great weapons is irrelevant because the Speed of Asuryan ignores rules such as ASL of the weapons being wielded. If this was not the case they would have ASF once and ASL twice; these would each be applied once and would cancel out.


I chose to handle it in the consistent way stated by the rulebook.

narrativium
16-09-2011, 12:32
There is no sequence. No reference to such a sequence exists in the rules. Those arguing that Swordmasters ignore the Thundertusk have created the idea of a sequence, and the method by which they decided the ordering of this sequence was curiously absent from both the rules and their own explanations. These fallacies have been questioned. Their bluff has been called. They would do well to read the rules everyone is trying to follow rather than continuing to make up their own; this is not a house rule discussion.

There is no sequence. The High Elves has ASF and ignores specific sources of ASL. They do not ignore sources of ASL which they does not ignore (a tautology, I know, but this fragment of the bleeding obvious seems to have not sunk in yet). When a High Elf encounters a source of ASL which it does not ignore, they have ASF and ASL.

cptcosmic
16-09-2011, 13:11
It can receive the rule twice. It can only apply it once, because it doesn't stack.
wrong, because I am now on the munchkin bandwagon like everyone else and take everything how it is written literally :D. according to the rules I cannot receive any additional benefit from receiving the special rules more then once. since ASL and ASF cancels out and are not in effect any more I dont receive any benefit and can benefit from ASF if I apply it again on my graveguard! :wtf: :cheese:

gogo ASF graveguard :evilgrin:

antihelten
16-09-2011, 13:19
I think the problem is that the SOA rule is very unclear, and doesn't actually make any sense.

It says high elves have ASF regardless of any weapon they are wielding. Well the same is true for my chaos lord with Helm of many eyes. He also has ASF regardless of what weapon he is wielding (although the effect isn't necessarily the same).

So RAW the "regardless of weapon" bit is completely superfluous. However the faq makes it clear what was intended by that bit (ie they ignore ASL from weapons), but since the faq doesn't actually amend that bit of text to actually say this, it's quite impossible to know how it behaves in combination with other rules, as we only know the intention of it in a very narrow situation.

Makrar
16-09-2011, 15:49
I think the point of contention is where some people think if part of a special rule is nulified its not considering stacking to be affected by it again from another source. While others consider this to be an additional benefit gained from having duplicate special rules and thus not allowed.

(I think) :D

geldedgoat
16-09-2011, 16:48
Actually, it depends. To throw a monkeywrench in, by your argument it depends on whose turn it is, since the person whose turn it's in decides when effects apply.

The order in which the effects apply doesn't matter in the slightest.

Assuming it happens in the order of 1) SoA, 2) great weapon ASL, 3) Thundertusk ASL:
1) SoA applies. Is there another source of ASF? No. Apply ASF. Is there a source of ASL? No. ASF is not canceled.
2) Great weapon rules apply. Is there another source of ASL? No. Apply ASL. Is there a source of ASF? Yes, but this source ignores ASL from weapon sources. ASL is ignored. ASF is not canceled.
3) Thundertusk rules apply. Is there another source of ASL? Yes. Does this source apply the effect of ASL?* No. Apply ASL. Is there a source of ASF? Yes. ASL and ASF cancel each out. The unit strikes at I order.

*Why do we ask this question? Because the rules clearly prohibit only the cumulative stacking of effects; the rules say nothing about prohibiting a unit from being targeted by more than one source of a rule.

Now, let's reverse the order of the ASL sources, assuming they happen 1) SoA, 2) Thundertusk ASL, 3) great weapon ASL:
1) SoA applies. Is there another source of ASF? No. Apply ASF. Is there a source of ASL? No. ASF is not canceled.
2) Thundertusk rules apply. Is there another source of ASL? No. Apply ASL. Is there a source of ASF? Yes. ASL and ASF cancel each out. The unit strikes at I order.
3) Great weapon rules apply. Is there another source of ASL? Yes. Does this source apply the effect of ASL? Yes. No additional ASL effect is applied. The unit still strikes at I order.

wilsongrahams
16-09-2011, 17:50
I'm a High Elf player and I can see what everyone is trying to argue, however I believe swordmasters and white lions would strike in initiative order.

The way I explain the SoA rule to my playmates is that High Elf Great Weapons do not have the Always Strikes Last special rule, and all Elves have the Always Strike First. This is just rephrasing the wording for the same, simpler effect - they have ASF once, and no ASF, so therefore they can still suffer ASF effects.

My understanding of SoA is that they do not ignore ASL but rather do not have it applied from using Great Weapons. It's down to interpratation however but I think I'm playing fair enough - Ogres pay good points for the freezing ability that affects everybody but SM and WL's.

Loopstah
16-09-2011, 19:20
I'm a High Elf player and I can see what everyone is trying to argue, however I believe swordmasters and white lions would strike in initiative order.

The way I explain the SoA rule to my playmates is that High Elf Great Weapons do not have the Always Strikes Last special rule, and all Elves have the Always Strike First. This is just rephrasing the wording for the same, simpler effect - they have ASF once, and no ASF, so therefore they can still suffer ASF effects.


That's incorrect though, SoA in no way removes ASL from the Great Weapons.

narrativium
16-09-2011, 20:04
No. It just says High Elves aren't affected by the ASL of the Great Weapons.

If you find a rule which states they cannot be affected by ASL from any source, let us know.

antihelten
16-09-2011, 20:11
Is there another source of ASL? Yes. Does this source apply the effect of ASL?* No. Apply ASL.

But this would mean that a second instance of the same special rule had an additional effect, which is prohibited by the FAQ.


No. It just says High Elves aren't affected by the ASL of the Great Weapons.


It says no such thing, but the faq implies that it actually does, which is kinda the problem, since we have no way of interpreting the rule, when GW themselves interprets it in a way that is clearly not RAW.

narrativium
16-09-2011, 20:26
But this would mean that a second instance of the same special rule had an additional effect, which is prohibited by the FAQ. Specify what this additional effect might be.

The High Elf has ASF (Speed of Asuryan) and ASL (Thundertusk). They cancel out. That's in the rules for ASF and ASL.

What additional effect did the great weapon have on this? None. First because it's a weapon wielded by a model with Speed of Asuryan, and second because ASL doesn't stack, so it wasn't applied.

If you believe the great weapon's ASL is applied, then it cancels out the High Elf's ASF, and the Thundertusk has no additional effect. If you believe the great weapon's ASL is not applied, then it has no additional effect when the Thundertusk's ASL cancels out the High Elf's ASF. It cannot be both applied and not applied, but either way the High Elf strikes at Initiative order.

geldedgoat
16-09-2011, 23:02
But this would mean that a second instance of the same special rule had an additional effect, which is prohibited by the FAQ.

No, because "the rules clearly prohibit only the cumulative stacking of effects; the rules say nothing about prohibiting a unit from being targeted by more than one source of a rule."

What is the effect of wielding a great weapon? Additional strength and ASL. SoA ignores the ASL portion, so that effect is not applied. What is effect of being an enemy within 6" of a Thundertusk? ASL. There is no duplication of an effect; one is ignored, the other is not, just like it works for every other great weapon-wielding enemy unit within range of a Thundertusk.

Great Swords: ASL from great weapons + ASL from Thundertusk = one instance of ASL
GW Chaos Lord with Helm of Many Eyes: ASL from great weapon + ASL from Thundertusk + ASF from Helm = one ASL and one ASF that cancel each other, making the Chaos Lord strike in I order
Grave Guard: ASL from great weapons + ASL from Thundertusk = one instance of ASL
Sword Masters/White Lions: ASL from great weapon + ASL from Thundertusk + ASF from SoA = one ASL and one ASF that cancel each other, making the units strike in I order

I still don't get why some think having one ASL ignored somehow makes a unit immune to all other ASL sources. If one effect is ignored, the unit is not being affected by the special rule, so having a completely separate source apply ASL would only confer a single, unstacked effect.

Liber
17-09-2011, 00:47
.



It says no such thing

yes, yes it does.

it says they always strike first regardless of what weapon they use.

weapon

implying great weapon.

that is exactly what it says, so your whole point falls flat.

(how many people participating in this debate don't have access to the high elf armybook?)

and Loopstah, do you realize how stunningly appropriate your user name is?

"That's incorrect though, SoA in no way removes ASL from the Great Weapons. " - Loopstah.

its almost too much. i mean under SoA it says (in effect) that high elves ignore asl from great weapons. so you decide to just ignore the specifity of the rule and claim "therefore they are immune to any and all asl, amen"

can't wait for gw to faq this. how many high elf players are gonna get away with this flawed logic? time will tell.

Yrrdead
17-09-2011, 00:54
yes, yes it does.

it says they always strike first regardless of what weapon they use.

weapon

implying great weapon.

that is exactly what it says, so your whole point falls flat.

(how many people participating in this debate don't have access to the high elf armybook?)

and Loopstah, do you realize how stunningly appropriate your user name is?

"That's incorrect though, SoA in no way removes ASL from the Great Weapons. " - Loopstah.

its almost too much. i mean under SoA it says (in effect) that high elves ignore asl from great weapons. so you decide to just ignore the specifity of the rule and claim "therefore they are immune to any and all asl, amen"

can't wait for gw to faq this. how many high elf players are gonna get away with this flawed logic? time will tell.

Those little sections in your post where you use words like "in effect" and "implying" are interpretations and thus subjective. Hence this discussion.

geldedgoat
17-09-2011, 01:05
Those little sections in your post where you use words like "in effect" and "implying" are interpretations and thus subjective.

That's exactly why he was wrong to be so soft with his language.

Yrrdead
17-09-2011, 01:11
He can't help it , the problem lies with the "softness" of SoA. Which I'm pretty sure that he didn't write :) .

Edit- If you happen to not be male Liber please don't take offense at my use of the masculine pronouns.

narrativium
17-09-2011, 01:29
I'm not sure what "softness" means. If I have to guess, I think that would make your use of "softness" soft. I.e. it's a term which means one thing but an intangible aspect of the phrasing lacks the authority to be clear-cut, leading to a belief that it could mean things other than what it says it means. Am I right?

geldedgoat
17-09-2011, 02:37
He can't help it , the problem lies with the "softness" of SoA.

What "softness"? Have you read the rule?

Liber
17-09-2011, 02:54
He can't help it , the problem lies with the "softness" of SoA. Which I'm pretty sure that he didn't write :) .

Edit- If you happen to not be male Liber please don't take offense at my use of the masculine pronouns.


no worries, all male here.

anyways i disagree about the "softness" of SoA.

the rules are specific.

once again, i am cursed by my god like reading comprehension...i feel so alien surrounded by my fellow mortals.


but don't take offense, it should not be expected that everyone possess the keen and surgical intellect needed to understand that the line "all high elves have the ASF special rule regardless of what weapon they are wielding" is talking about weapons. i know, i am a genius to have figured this out all by myself. but no worries little folk! i think gw will faq this with simpler language in the near future...till then, i will play the game by what the rules state. (and it just so happens, what also makes the most sense!)


and now, everyone may continue to discuss whether or not high elves with great weapons strike faster than high elves without when confronted by a T Tusk. But without me, i've stated the facts (facts being the one line i quoted) and everything else is speculation (and speculation where none is required is a sure way to arrive at the wrong answer)

good luck! :angel:

wilsongrahams
17-09-2011, 09:04
Maybe the point I wanted to make was misunderstood.

If a HE strikes first regardless of weapon, that implies that you ignore any weapon rules to the contrary, hence why I don't apply the ASL of a great weapon in the first place - else it'd cancel out and be initiative order as there's no such thing as ASF(2) which SoA seems to imply, and that is what many of you think it means.

If ASL is never applied from the GW because it's ignored (assuming it's better made lighter elf weaponry or something) then they strike in initiative order. If ASL is applied but ignored, then there is something amiss because it is never stated that ASL is not applied, so Swordmasters should usually strike at initiative order based on the fact they have ASL and ASF and the 'regardless of weapon' is superfluous fluff.

You have to be consistent in how you apply and stack rules etc - many examples still seem to apply a model can have a rule more than once - it can't (not asl and asf anyway), hence why I take the view that HE with GW never have ASL in the first place so are subject to ASL from Thundertusk.

antihelten
17-09-2011, 10:36
yes, yes it does.

it says they always strike first regardless of what weapon they use.


When I wrote it said no such thing, I was referring to the actual text and not what might or might not be implied by said text, sorry if that was unclear.

And no it doesn't say HE always strikes first regardless of weapon, it says HE has the special rule "always strike first" regardless of weapon, which may or may not result in them always striking first depending on how you interpret the rule. (the FAQ luckily makes it clear how we should interpret the rule)


Specify what this additional effect might be.


ASL from great weapons have zero effect, ASL from thundertusk then have X effect (X being striking in ini order), X effect is in addition to zero effect, which the swordmasters started with, and as such is an additional effect from having two instance of the same special rule.

narrativium
17-09-2011, 12:19
ASL from great weapons have zero effect, ASL from thundertusk then have X effect (X being striking in ini order), X effect is in addition to zero effect, which the swordmasters started with, and as such is an additional effect from having two instance of the same special rule.
This must be some new definition of the word 'zero' of which I was not previously aware.

If the great weapon ASL has zero effect, then it has no effect on the game. It doesn't stack with the Thundertusk ASL, nor does it prevent the Thundertusk ASL from taking effect.

I'll say it again: Speed of Asuryan grants the High Elf the Always Strikes First rule regardless of weapon. It does not immunise the High Elf from all sources of the ASL rule, just those sources which happen to be weapons it can wield.

ASL cannot be stacked. Regardless of the number of sources the rule comes from - Nurglish gifts, Wood Elf magical items, Ogre monsters, Ogre banners, great weapons - if even one of them applies, if you cannot ignore all of those which apply, then you apply the ASL rule once. No additional benefit comes of it being active twice.

Swordmasters have the ASL rule but they can ignore it. In the presence of a Thundertusk they have the ASL rule twice, ignore one of those instances but not both, and are forced to apply the second.

Mister Blak
17-09-2011, 14:54
I'm going to take this oppurtunity to throw a slightly off topic spanner in the works and get an answer to a problem that's always bugged me.:angel:

Chakax's magic item rule " the key to the eternity chamber" says ( word for word): " when he is fighting in a challenge, chakax gains a 5+ ward save and any model that wishes to attack him automatically strikes last, even if they charged or had an ability that would normally allo them to strike first

how does this fit in? it's not listed as ASL, so the swordmasters should get no immunity. :confused:

narrativium
17-09-2011, 16:10
Under such phrasing, Chakax's enemies would strike last, simultaneously with anything else which Always Strikes Last, and would ignore all Always Strikes First rules.

As has already been stated, Swordmasters have no immunity to ASL anyway (their 'immunity' is more selective than Chakax's). They're in the same position as everyone else.

T10
17-09-2011, 16:57
Chakax has his special rule altered in the current Lizardmen FAQ: "When fighting in a challenge, Chakax gains a 5+ ward save and his opponent Always Strikes Last."

Gabacho Mk.II
17-09-2011, 18:21
This is the way that I interpret it:
When swordmasters come in range of a Thundertusk they have 3 rules working for them:
ASF from Speed of Asuryan
ASL from their greatweapons
ASL from the Aura around the T Tusk.

The rulebook says that except in certain circumstances (and the rulebook is specific; fight in extra ranks, additional attack) multiple special rules that are the same DO NOT STACK. Therefore, the Swordmasters are under the rules: ASF and ASL; the rulebook then tells us what happens in this circumstance: They cancel and blows are struck in initiative order.

Simple.

That is how I am reading it, too.