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Andy p
18-09-2011, 11:02
In the new 8th book about the ogre charge, the third paragraph has this line: "..the two highest dice score a total of 10 or more".

I know this might seem inconsequential to many, afterall with swiftstride you do take away the lowest dice, but those lines imply that all the normal ogre infantry and characters, excluding gorgers, have swiftstride.

Now im curious, im pretty sure normal ogres dont have swiftstride and while yhetees have it they dont have ogre charge.

This leaves Maneaters as the only ogre unit with swiftstride and ogre charge, (as Mornfang cav have their own impact hits and are monstrous cav so dont get swiftstride), so why do the ogre charge rules state the two highest dice? Is this JUST for the sake of the maneaters having the option of swiftstride?

For that matter why does the StoneHorn's earth shattering charge say the same thing about 2 highest dice when it also doesnt have swiftstride?

Is there a rule in the BRB ive missed about people/monsters with 6" or more movement having swiftstride?

This cant possibly be right, if it was just for the sake of maneaters then why didnt they just put "in the case of swiftstride units use the two highest dice" and simply leave the normal ogre charge as: "If the two dice for charging roll 10 or more..."

Thing is I can see people trying to claim this means they all get 3D6 on their charge rolls with ogre infantry and Stonehorns, so could someone explain this to me? Have I missed something in the BRB? Or even in the Ogre book itself?

Dæmon
18-09-2011, 11:14
I believe StoneHorn's special rule was made only to emphasize the nature of it's devastating charge. Same as the Ogre charge, to encourage larger units.

Zed!
18-09-2011, 11:21
In the new 8th book about the ogre charge, the third paragraph has this line: "..the two highest dice score a total of 10 or more".

I know this might seem inconsequential to many, afterall with swiftstride you do take away the lowest dice, but those lines imply that all the normal ogre infantry and characters, excluding gorgers, have swiftstride.
It doesn't. It implies that you always use the two highest dice. In case of ogres without swiftstride, that means you take the two highest out of two. In case of ogres with swiftstride, that means you take the two highest out of three.


This cant possibly be right, if it was just for the sake of maneaters then why didnt they just put "in the case of swiftstride units use the two highest dice" and simply leave the normal ogre charge as: "If the two dice for charging roll 10 or more..."
Because this way, it's simpler. You always use the two highest dice. If there are only two dice, those two will always be the highest.

Korraz
18-09-2011, 11:25
"The two highest dice" leaves room for possible modifications of the charge dice in some way in the future. This is called "good rules writing."

Mr_Rose
18-09-2011, 14:00
"The two highest dice" leaves room for possible modifications of the charge dice in some way in the future. This is called "good rules writing."
Yeah, if the Lizardman Cold Blooded rule told you to roll one extra die and take away the highest, there would never have been those ridiculous threads regarding the casket of souls vs. Cold Blooded or any need for a FAQ.

P.S. Maneaters are not the only way for an Ogre to get Swiftstride; Hunters gain the rule when they join Sabretusk Packs.

Andy p
18-09-2011, 16:01
"The two highest dice" leaves room for possible modifications of the charge dice in some way in the future. This is called "good rules writing."

Or confusing loophole for some to abuse?

musical
18-09-2011, 16:16
What if in the new Wood Elf book they get a new augment spell that give you something like swiftstride, and you can cast it on ogre mercenary (and/or)allies.

Andy p
18-09-2011, 16:26
Then it would make sense.....im only asking this question because I know how certain people's minds work, any excuse to argue the toss and exploit a rule any way they want.

Common sense does dictate that it simply means :
It doesn't. It implies that you always use the two highest dice. In case of ogres without swiftstride, that means you take the two highest out of two.


But it does still seem bizarre, I mean the highest two out of two? Is there such a thing? Surely you can understand why I percieve it as poorly written gibberish.

Mr_Rose
18-09-2011, 16:27
Or confusing loophole for some to abuse?
Or not?
Seriously, "the two highest dice" does not imply that there are always more than two dice at all, much less state it outright. At best it implies that there might be more than two dice and never gives any indication that there is an upper limit. If you want to take such implications as fact then what you have is not "all ogres have Swiftstride" but instead "all ogres can roll as many damn dice as they like for charging."

Andy p
18-09-2011, 16:34
So you agree that it was worded poorly?

Mr_Rose
18-09-2011, 16:43
So you agree that it was worded poorly?
No, I think you're some sort of troll, but whatever.
Please note that I said "if you take implications as fact" but to do so is pure stupidity. Do you also believe everything you read in tabloid newspapers too?

Avian
18-09-2011, 16:44
If there is a situation where Ogres could roll only one dice for charging, then you can say it's worded a bit poorly, as you are asked to take the two nicest of one, but taking the two highest of two is NOT problematic.

Andy p
18-09-2011, 16:54
No, I think you're some sort of troll, but whatever.
Please note that I said "if you take implications as fact" but to do so is pure stupidity. Do you also believe everything you read in tabloid newspapers too?

I should have worded my original post better, I was trying to look at it from the point of view of someone who would read a rule like this, not necessarily my own view. I wanted to make sure most people were on the same page as me when it came to the view on this rule.

I regularly play against the kind of person who argues things like Stand and Shoot goes towards combat resolution, even though there isnt anything about it in the combat resolution section and it doesnt mention it atall in the stand and shoot part on page 17. Common sense would of course notice that all wounds in the resolution must be combat ones, but because there is no statement saying it specifically doesnt affect combat resolution he argues any way.

Why play a person like that? Well there are only about 5 people who play fantasy at my local and he is the only one who always turns up every week and always brings a fantasy army, unfortunately my hands are tied on that, unless I just turn up and then leave for no reason which is pointless as it is a long walk back.

As for your other comments, if you cant be mature then dont enter the discussion. :)

ps: Although I will add that belief of what I see in the media or read is not a strong point of mine, I question everything people tell me, I get the barest facts from the news/paper and then the rest I see as convenient bias, beside your insult is a poor one considering that me questioning the wording of this rule is exactly what someone WHO DOESNT believe everthing he is told would do.

unheilig
18-09-2011, 16:58
Warhammer players make me sad.

Ogre charge is a very clear and concise rule. Any attempt to see loopholes where none exist is foolish at best, downright cheating at worst.

I'd love to hear the private conversations in the design studio when they catch wind of stuff like this.

Andy p
18-09-2011, 16:58
Me too. :D

Zentdiam
18-09-2011, 17:50
I should have worded my original post better, I was trying to look at it from the point of view of someone who would read a rule like this, not necessarily my own view. I wanted to make sure most people were on the same page as me when it came to the view on this rule.

I regularly play against the kind of person who argues things like Stand and Shoot goes towards combat resolution, even though there isnt anything about it in the combat resolution section and it doesnt mention it atall in the stand and shoot part on page 17. Common sense would of course notice that all wounds in the resolution must be combat ones, but because there is no statement saying it specifically doesnt affect combat resolution he argues any way.

That is just a bad gamer right there and it is unfortunate you have to play with them. Even if there are only 5 people, there would be 4 people I play at your store. This line of logic can be taken to extremes in any form. It doesn't say I DON"T get stomp on gnoblars, guess I get stomp (or other crazyness). The flak you are getting is based off the fact that anyone who would seriously argue this rule gives swiftstride is completely wrong and there's no wiggle room. Thread over. Now how to deal with someone like that is a whole nother issue :P

musical
18-09-2011, 20:16
Hay Andy P, guess what, at first I thought you were a bit obsessive over this rule but it makes perfect sense once you look at the cataclysm spells in SoM.

Hunter's Moon(beast) augment, target receive +1S and +1T and gains swiftstride special rule.

Do I get full mark?

Also to a lesser extend:

Withering Heat(fire) hex, whenever a target unit charges etc roll an extra dice and discards the highest result.....

Yrrdead
18-09-2011, 23:39
This leaves Maneaters as the only ogre unit with swiftstride and ogre charge, (as Mornfang cav have their own impact hits and are monstrous cav so dont get swiftstride), so why do the ogre charge rules state the two highest dice? Is this JUST for the sake of the maneaters having the option of swiftstride?


Apologies for the snip.

Just wanted to make a quick correction. You state that monstrous cavalry don't have swiftstride. That is incorrect. Monstrous Cavalry do indeed have the swiftstride special rule.

Andy p
19-09-2011, 09:19
Ah I didn't know that, as it doesnt state it in the book, but when I think about it all cavalry get swiftstride so monstrous ought to as well.

Unless that is wrong and they FAQ'ed it? I got the impression they were a separate type to normal cav?

Avian
19-09-2011, 09:53
Monstrous cavalry get whatever rules normal cavalry get (inc Swiftstride), but Mournfangs don't have Ogre charge.

Andy p
19-09-2011, 12:44
Yeah I know they dont get ogre charge, but the other part makes perfect sense.