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karechar
19-09-2011, 12:04
hey everyone,

Im often fighting lizzy's
most of the time its a skink army.

12" move / 12" shooting
they move outside los and do their worst.
hitting on 6's with poison so no to wound roll.
units are skirmishing and 10 big.

what is the best way to deal with an army like that

Frankly
19-09-2011, 12:15
What army do you play.

BlackPawl
19-09-2011, 12:43
A few fireballs should help you. Autohit (so even skirmisher in cover will be hit), wounds on 2+ ... ;)

russellmoo
19-09-2011, 14:54
The other question is- How many points are you playing?

The skink army is deadliest at lower points- try playing 3000pts- you can then span the length of the board leaving all of those skinks nowhere to run-

Otherwise you will need a more mobile force- or other forms of non-ballistic skill shooting

If you play WoC, then I find the idea of the mightiest warriors in the warhammer world, dying to some of the weakest amusing- (but also I can see how this would be extremely frustrating as WoC don't have the tools to deal with this)

Sexiest_hero
19-09-2011, 17:05
Try adding fast things and magic missiles. Use the terrain chart, If it's all mudane the Liz player will rip you apart.

Don Zeko
19-09-2011, 17:11
This is what cavalry is for. Even the cheapest and crappiest heavy cav will mow down skink skirmishers. In fact, a Tomb Kings all-cavalry army would be surprisingly effective here. Auto-hitting on a 5+ means those chariots and light horsemen will do well in a shooting match, and against skinks heavy horsemen will actually be able to win fights.

Kharn_21
19-09-2011, 17:16
Echelon formation alongside a board edge will force him to give you a charge arc somewhere

Sent from my SGH-i917 using Board Express

karechar
19-09-2011, 18:21
Im playing skaven
but even in a 3k to 4k battle im having a hard time.
he can keep moving and shooting.
if i put a battle line there is bound to come a gap while moving and he will find a way to exploit it.
warp lightning cannons are not very effective point wise and the chance of hitting is slim hitting a unit full on only half of the time and then only killing up to half of the unit.
same for plague cattapults.
spell wise his slann with diadem has a great chance of dispelling most of my spells
chance is only one will get through.
kiling about max one unit.
i cant kill him fast enough to win timewise

karechar
19-09-2011, 18:32
an avarage army of his around 3k
slann life magic imm to non magical regen +1 power die complete list
3x lvl 1 priest diadem dispel cube of darkness
skink chief battle banner 2+ armour
20x skink skirmishers
4x 6 chameleons
4x salamander
2x 25 saurus warriors

Sexiest_hero
19-09-2011, 18:47
Plague works wonders, rattling guns also. Warp lighting cannons are great points wise, Read the tactica for them on the GW website, it's actually really good. If you are running the normal big blocks of slaves, you are going to get wrecked. Giant rats are good for hunting them down. You are playing skaven, you can flood the field, and scout into great position, you have spells like scorch, and gutter runners.

BlackPawl
20-09-2011, 07:58
Run one (or better 2) doomwheels. The lightning bolts will kill not many skinks, but he can not run around your doomwheel and if you charge with 3s6 he can not stand and shoot. And against poison you have a 4+ as.

And fight fire with fire: take 2 units of gutter runner with poison and slings, he will only hit you on 5+ or 6+, you also, but gutter runner are as fast as skinks and much better in close combat.

Run many rat darts. He can kill a unit with one round of shooting, but you should have 5 or more of them, so he can not kill all. And giant rats are good enough in close combat against skinks.

Also take a powerstone and a a few warphappen for the warlock engineers. He could not dispell all your warp lightnings!

And don't shoot with your cannons on skinks, a warplighning cannon can kill the slann with one good shoot (and also the doomwheels with their 3 shoots) which are magical, so he will not be immune.

PeG
20-09-2011, 12:35
Slann is not in a unit of temple guards? warp lightning, doom wheels, IF magic, jezzails etc almost everything you got have magical attacks. Without the Slann magic can make a mess of all those skinks.

Depending on the number of rats you want to paint, skaven slaves cost less then skinks.....

Memnos
20-09-2011, 12:40
How about taking the Storm Banner? -2 to hit means he hits on 6s. If he's marched, that's 7s - And no poison at that point. If he's long range, that's 8s and no poison.

And Skaven are really, really inexpensive. This should be a cakewalk for you.

Paladin21
20-09-2011, 13:42
He's got way too many points tied up in characters. Send in a couple of Gutter Runner squads to assassinate the Slaan (slings+poison, or just HTH him down). Even if it takes both units to kill him, and it shouldn't, you'll still be way up on point costs. Stack your blocks so you have Slaves, Clanrats, Warpfire Thrower weapon teams in a line. If he bypasses the Slaves, Clanrats charge. If he bypasses the Clanrats, Thrower teams cook him.

You can also run a couple of HPA's, they tend to fix most problems in one way or another. Doomwheels are somewhat risky against large amounts of poison as he can bypass the toughness 6, and you might go out of control. On the other hand, I usually field 2 against my friend's Lizardmen, and I am very rarely disappointed by them. Generally one of them will fail terribly, and the other will earn 3 or 4 times its points back.

russellmoo
21-09-2011, 18:52
I like the idea of gutter runners, and seriously just take units of 60+ then move in fast, take down the combat blocks and just ignore those skinks-

Also, try running a bell and a furnace, they both give you a 360 magical missile arc then use magic to reduce the numbers of skinks- ideally take out half of each unit turn 1 or 2- then just ignore them the rest of the game

You should also cover both of your flanks with large slave blocks, place anything you don't want shot inside the slave walls- then as you move pay close attention to the 1" rule- this will force him to either go to the outside and shoot slaves, (in which case just ignore them) or he will try and get to good targets by heading toward the center- you will then be able to destroy them-

I also agree that doomwheels will help here- but I always bring one anyway-

Malorian
21-09-2011, 18:55
Skaven really shouldn't have any problem with them at all.

Swarm, eat a few shots, win. Done.

Spells and the like are interesting ways to do the same thing, but it doesn't get much simplier than just marching up and wiping him out.

karechar
21-09-2011, 20:08
an imprtant thing to note we don't play with victory points.
just until one gives up or is annihilated.

that is the problem he keeps his big blocks behind so if i want to fight them it takes 3 turns to reach them losing a minimum of 75 models before i get there.
that kill's lots of rats before i have done anything.

his units are about 10 big a skaven unit about 25 making them point wise more expensive and less manouverable.
except if i only use slave units but hey a LD of 5 witch doesn't help.

with mv 6 he most of the times moves outside my LOS so i cant charge.

we play on a wide table so if my units are 1" apart i need lots of them to make a battle line and have no spare units on the second wave.

Or can i place units around 2.5" apart and he cant move though since he is closer then 1" from a unit and thus needs to charge??????

a HPA gets shot in one round by 2 units of skinks eg 40 shots an average of 7 hits on 6's only saving half on regen means 4 wounds and mostly he's lucky and has 10 to 12 hits by by HPA, doomwheel , verminlord ect.

his slann is not in LOS with my cannons due to his saurus units who block it.

GR are nice but he deploy's so that i must place them midfield no room behind him.
and having them using sneaky infiltration will on average get them on any table edge around turn 3 having them do something in turn 4
and since his slann is immune to non magical GR are useless

I alway's field stormbanner it is a must but he keeps running circles untill its effect dies usualy the 3rd roll

can anyone give me an 3k build vs his build i placed earlier?

Malorian
21-09-2011, 20:27
First of all start playing 6 turn games with VPs.

Second of all, yes, being 2.5 apart will not let him through.

karechar
21-09-2011, 20:36
great that helps 2.5 " rules.

but all of us think victory point system #%^&#$'s (using no foul language)
and costs lots of time to calculate and remember.

most of the time in bigger battles we don't even reach 6 rounds before the day is over.

w3rm
21-09-2011, 20:40
Cloud of corruption. Also take about 4 units of 15 giant rats. combo charge the skink units and they can only s+S one and the fresh one will shred them to pieces. Slaves with slings would do nicely too.

Malorian
21-09-2011, 21:02
most of the time in bigger battles we don't even reach 6 rounds before the day is over.

:wtf::confused:

I just had the image that your group consists of only t-rex, and you have a hard time moving models around and picking up dice :p

(It's been a long day...)

karechar
21-09-2011, 21:05
in a 3k battle he has an average of 27 units vs around 17 units of mine

Malorian
21-09-2011, 21:05
Do you use movement trays?

karechar
21-09-2011, 21:21
both of us use them

Malorian
21-09-2011, 21:58
Then I don't understand... should be an easy matter of just moving around units and then shooting.

Also note that if he stays at long range that would mean he is single shooting for a 6, meaning each unit of 10 skinks should kill 1.7 2-point slaves... On your turn you march right up to him.

If he comes into short range you charge.

There is only so much of the board he can run back to...

BlackPawl
22-09-2011, 07:50
an imprtant thing to note we don't play with victory points.
just until one gives up or is annihilated.

that is the problem he keeps his big blocks behind so if i want to fight them it takes 3 turns to reach them losing a minimum of 75 models before i get there.
that kill's lots of rats before i have done anything.

his units are about 10 big a skaven unit about 25 making them point wise more expensive and less manouverable.
except if i only use slave units but hey a LD of 5 witch doesn't help.

with mv 6 he most of the times moves outside my LOS so i cant charge.

we play on a wide table so if my units are 1" apart i need lots of them to make a battle line and have no spare units on the second wave.

Or can i place units around 2.5" apart and he cant move though since he is closer then 1" from a unit and thus needs to charge??????

a HPA gets shot in one round by 2 units of skinks eg 40 shots an average of 7 hits on 6's only saving half on regen means 4 wounds and mostly he's lucky and has 10 to 12 hits by by HPA, doomwheel , verminlord ect.

his slann is not in LOS with my cannons due to his saurus units who block it.

GR are nice but he deploy's so that i must place them midfield no room behind him.
and having them using sneaky infiltration will on average get them on any table edge around turn 3 having them do something in turn 4
and since his slann is immune to non magical GR are useless

I alway's field stormbanner it is a must but he keeps running circles untill its effect dies usualy the 3rd roll

can anyone give me an 3k build vs his build i placed earlier?


Take cheap units!

I would be happy if I would only loose 75 models in 3 turns against my main opponent (empire)! Take 3 or more unites of 60 slaves with a musician each - but in horde formation, so you could really cover most of the field with only 360 / 480 points. If he shoot on them then he will kill one unit, but that would be only 122 points in all 3 turns - and your HPA / Doomwheel would be save. Or he will kill one Doomwheel and you have all other units intact.

If he has more units than you, you will get the +1 modifier for the first turn. Two Doomwheels should each go 10" forward first turn and shoot not get any hits because of the stormbanner and long range (even if he get some hits they would not get the poison bonus, so he have to wound on 6+ and you have a 4+ save). Second turn you should get one possible charge with one doomwheel, and from then on roll on his battle line.
He can't outmanoever a doomwheel / HPA because they can charge with 360 LOS.

If you want to have more units take many units of giant rats (5 strong with a master is only 23 points) or units of 20 slaves. Skaven allways have more and bigger units then all other (except maybe goblins). That's a LAW! :cool:

Yes, your slaves will only have ld 5, but if they near their general they will have ld 10, so you don't get many failed rolls (and take them near your BSB is even better). Or give the unit far away from the general a warlock with no wizard upgrade, so the unit will have ld8!
Give him the doomrocket and he will kill one or two units of skinks alone.

Yes, Gutter Runners can not hurt a slann, but if they charge and get a charge from behind it will be +2 or +3 (depending if the slann is also a bsb). The slann must take a break test on 6+ or 5+, but if he did not get it then you can overrun him. And in this case I would also try to give the GR Champion the weeping blade, it would change the matter! :D

I would even go so far as to include my "Wizard-Hunter" with this unit. An assasin with the MR2 item, so he has a ward 4+ and a 2+ against magic spells. The unit would have a 6+ save and a 4+ against spells. Then give him the other trickster shard and a magic weapon for 5 points. Job done!

BlackPawl
22-09-2011, 11:13
I would try a list like this:



2996

305 Grey Seer (General)
Powerstone, Talisman of Endurance


122 Chieftain, BSB, shield
Stormbanner

97 Chieftain, Shield, Warlockarmor, Trickter Shard, 5 point magic waepon


45 Warlock
Doomrocket

105 Warlock, Lev 1
Dispel Scroll, 1 Warpstone

115 Warlock, Lev 1
2 Warphappen, condensator



142 70 Slaves, Musician
142 70 Slaves, Musician
142 70 Slaves, Musician
142 70 Slaves, Musician
142 70 Slaves, Musician

210 5 units 21 Slaves

140 30 Clanrats, FC
70 WFT

230 10 Teams 5 Giant Rats & Moulder


162 10 Gutter Runner / Champion with Weeping Blade


235 HPA

150 Doomwheel

150 Doomwheel

150 Doomwheel


It is not an optimal list, but I think it can hurt him alot.

You have 26 drops, 10 alone with your rat darts. The Chieftain is a fun (suicide) character you can use to skitterleap near the slann.
I do not think that he can kill 3 doomwheels and a HPA in two rounds with support from your storm banner.
The Gutter runner can kill the slann with the weeping blade.

With nearly 500 modell he can kill 100 of them in two or three turns and you will not see a gap in your line! Put the big units of slaves in the front, the ones far away from the general with a warlock (for ld 8), behind them the blocks of 21 slaves.

Maybe he will kill all your giant rat or they will catch the skinks in turn 3 at last and then they will kill the skinks. There will be no refuge for the skinks because the giant rats are also M6.

Have fun! :evilgrin:

karechar
22-09-2011, 17:33
ah thanx a lot that is a list i will try.
maybe tweek a little bit but i will use it and see what happens.
sound advice about some things i didn't think of myself.

BlackPawl
22-09-2011, 18:49
And do not forget: he can not take "stand and shoot" against your doomwheels and HPA if they charge, because there is no other charge reaction allowed than "hold".

So first (skink) turn (with activated stormbanner) he can't hit you with poison attacks - except cameleon skinks if they are in short range - but then they are also in charge distance for your army.
Second turn he will get some poison attacks against your doomwheel / HPA, but I believe this will be not enough to kill more than one of them (leaving the rest of your units intact).
In the third turn you should be able to charge with the doomwheels, the giant rats and most of the slaves because there will not be any place left to retreat for him.

Tarpit the saurus warriors with two big slave units and charge the smaller ones into the skink units. Slaves can normally kill no one, but against skinks they are like heroes ...
If the HPA and one doomwheel is still alive use it to charge in the side of a tarpitted saurus unit - should be enough to smash one of them.

Don't forget to use the powerstone and the warpstones (and maybe the extra die from the condensor) in a round with not so much energy to soften up some units. D6 S5 hits are very good against all what he have. And with many small units a few hits are enough to take some panic tests.

Frankly
23-09-2011, 06:50
Slaves, Musician
Slaves, Musician
Slaves, Musician
Slaves, Musician
Slaves, Musician

5 units 21 Slaves

140 30 Clanrats, FC

10 Teams 5 Giant Rats & Moulder

10 Gutter Runner

HPA

150 Doomwheel

150 Doomwheel

150 Doomwheel




Great unit selection, they counter alot of the hidden strength of playing Southlands. One of the strengths of a skink list is it can wipe out units, leaving opponants with less options and the skink player with places to reposition. Those doomwheels and HPA could cover 'corner creeping' from chammies and skirmishers, while slaves take the brunt of the damage.

I played a skaven not so long ago at a tournament, I took off 100+ models in the magic + shooting phase in a turn(wither + salamanders, pit of shades vs poor rolls, 150+ poison shots). The main reason I could do this is that I out deployed him with a heap of skink units drops, I was able to drop my salamander unit last into a good position(caused 52 wounds). After the game we talked about if he had a larger force, I wouldn't have been able to out deploy him and he would have been able to soak up those wounds and still function as a list.

Your list counters all that.

karechar
05-05-2012, 20:50
thanks for all the help