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gogs78
19-09-2011, 12:35
Looking for some opinions on a situation that arose the other day in a game.

My high elves vs my mates deamons.

His bloodletters charge my eagle and they have a banner which gives them an extra d6 the first time they charge. They still failed the charge. Now i thought they still only go the highest of the two original charge dice (ie 5") My mate is convinced they go that 5" plus the extra charge dice as its added onto the charge (ie 10")

Half an hour of arguing later we had to dice off! As i said would like some opinions to put my mind at rest either way.

Mid'ean
19-09-2011, 14:02
He can take the highest of the 3 dice then. You don't add the 3rd dice to the failed roll.

gogs78
19-09-2011, 14:12
That was my thought but he wasnt convinced.

badguyshaveallthefun
19-09-2011, 15:31
The Icon of Endless war states that "you add D6 to the first charge move". It leads me to believe that you would add it to a failed charge as well. I would think that your opponent was right, you would move forward the highest D6 of the two rolled as normal for a failed charge, and then add the D6 from the banner.

Harwammer
19-09-2011, 15:33
That was my thought but he wasnt convinced.

That wasn't your thought as per the original post. You said your thought was it was highest of the 2 original. To clarify, Mid'ean said it's actually the highest one dice out of all three rolled (I.e one of the charge dice OR the bonus).

gogs78
19-09-2011, 16:26
The Icon of Endless war states that "you add D6 to the first charge move". It leads me to believe that you would add it to a failed charge as well. I would think that your opponent was right, you would move forward the highest D6 of the two rolled as normal for a failed charge, and then add the D6 from the banner.

Thats what he said, it just seems to me that whatever you add its still a "failed charge" and the rules for failed charge are that you go the highest of the dice but i could easy be wrong.


That wasn't your thought as per the original post. You said your thought was it was highest of the 2 original. To clarify, Mid'ean said it's actually the highest one dice out of all three rolled (I.e one of the charge dice OR the bonus).

Yes thats what i ment. It didnt come out as i had planned in the original post, basically the same as a swiftstride charge:)

badguyshaveallthefun
19-09-2011, 16:40
Thats what he said, it just seems to me that whatever you add its still a "failed charge" and the rules for failed charge are that you go the highest of the dice but i could easy be wrong.



I was under the impression that racial army books/special rules > rulebook. I know that in the instance of a failed charge you would normally only take the highest single die, I'm just wondering if because the icon is essentially a special rule that only happens once, that it trumps the rulebook and thus you get highest of two dice + your die from the banner.

I might be wrong, I'm just curious and wanting to know is all.

Walls
19-09-2011, 16:42
That's the benefit of the banner, it saves you from failed charges. You still add the D6 to whatever distance the 2 highest dice were. If you do not make it, then you just move the distance of the highest one since it still is a failed charge.

gogs78
19-09-2011, 16:42
@badguyshaveallthefun

Yeah, same here! If im wrong i will easily accept it just not sure at the moment!

Mid'ean
19-09-2011, 17:22
There's nothing in the daemon banners description that allows you to add the die to a failed charge or overrules the brb rules for a failed charge.

Yrrdead
19-09-2011, 17:48
Here is how I see it.

Either A.) It actually means add D6" to charge range which has nothing to do with moving chargers.

Which is how I've seen it played.

Or. B.) It means exactly what it says and does nothing. Well by nothing , I mean adding D6" to a move that essentially is "unlimited" seems pretty useless.

In neither case do I see it affecting failed charge movement. Which is something else entirely.

Mirbeau
19-09-2011, 18:18
Yeah, my opinion (for what its worth), and the way its played round here, is that the banner does nothing in regards to failed charges.

Harwammer
19-09-2011, 19:02
Yes thats what i ment. It didnt come out as i had planned in the original post, basically the same as a swiftstride charge:)
Cool! I thought it would be a good idea to clarify just in case :)

gogs78
19-09-2011, 21:19
Cool! I thought it would be a good idea to clarify just in case :)

No problem!

Thankyou for the replies.

ChaosPuppet
19-09-2011, 22:31
Until FAQ'd otherwise by GW, I would count a "failed charge" move to be part of the overall charge move, to which the 'icon of endless war' ability adds d6"

Otherwise the banner would read "roll an extra D6 when determining your charge range" or words to that effect.

Yrrdead
20-09-2011, 03:57
Until FAQ'd otherwise by GW, I would count a "failed charge" move to be part of the overall charge move, to which the 'icon of endless war' ability adds d6"

Otherwise the banner would read "roll an extra D6 when determining your charge range" or words to that effect.

That line of reasoning means that the banner is essentially worthless.

Zoolander
20-09-2011, 08:44
Until FAQ'd otherwise by GW, I would count a "failed charge" move to be part of the overall charge move, to which the 'icon of endless war' ability adds d6"

Otherwise the banner would read "roll an extra D6 when determining your charge range" or words to that effect.

No, because the item was released in 7th edition. The take the highest die from a failed charge move is an 8th edition rule. That's why there's an issue.

In spirit, I believe it only adds to a successful charge, but the way it's worded, you add a d6 to all charges, which includes failed ones. I'm sure that is NOT the intent of the item, and I wouldn't use it that way.

The last update to the DoC FAQ was 18th April 2011, and nothing is mentioned there. Hopefully this will clarified at some point.

eron12
20-09-2011, 11:42
I guess it comes down to what is the "charge move" if that is what the item says? Is the charge move the distance rolled on the 2d6, or is it the distance the unit actually moves if the charge is failed?

In the first case I would say it gets added to the 2d6, and if 3d6+M doesn't make it the unit only moves the highest value rolled on a d6. If it's the second case, then I would say it couldn't be used to determine if a unit succeds in it's charge or not, but gets added afterward in any case (which could turn a failed charge into a sucessful one). As that seems awkward, I would go with the first interpetation.

DeathlessDraich
20-09-2011, 15:08
Looking for some opinions on a situation that arose the other day in a game.

My high elves vs my mates deamons.

His bloodletters charge my eagle and they have a banner which gives them an extra d6 the first time they charge. They still failed the charge. Now i thought they still only go the highest of the two original charge dice (ie 5") My mate is convinced they go that 5" plus the extra charge dice as its added onto the charge (ie 10")

Half an hour of arguing later we had to dice off! As i said would like some opinions to put my mind at rest either way.

Plus D6" and still fails the charge?! - sounds as if your opponent was over ambitious in gauging probable charge distances :)

Endless Icon -"add D6 to its charge move"
Failed charge - "moves directly towards its target a number of inches equal to the highest dice rolled for the charge"

Charge move is undefined since it is a throwback from 7th ed.

It could be construed to mean "charge range" (pg19)
or "charge distance" (pg 18)

However, fortunately the Failed charge rule obviates any necessity to interpret charge move in 8th ed rules

"highest dice rolled for the charge" - since 3 dice were rolled for the charge, the highest of these dice is used to determine the Failed charge move.

An alternative interpretation is created by the last para - "highest score rolled on the 2D6
i.e. using the higher dice roll of the original 2D6 and ignoring the Icon's additional dice.
This is also an acceptable interpretation
The difference won't be more than 2 or 3" usually - might be crucial but not worth arguing about, I think.:)

gogs78
20-09-2011, 20:35
Until FAQ'd otherwise by GW, I would count a "failed charge" move to be part of the overall charge move, to which the 'icon of endless war' ability adds d6"

Otherwise the banner would read "roll an extra D6 when determining your charge range" or words to that effect.

Nice try mate but its looking fairly conclusive so far!:)

ChaosPuppet
20-09-2011, 21:36
Nice try mate but its looking fairly conclusive so far!:)

Oh well, at least I won the game.

russellmoo
20-09-2011, 22:23
For what it's worth the Bretonnian virtue- which is very similar states- "The Knight and any mmounted unit he is with, adds +D6" for the first charge that they declare (roll after declaring the charge). If the charge is failed the unit will not add this extra D6" to their failed charge movement."

While this does nothing to resolve the interpretation issue- it hardly seems fair to me that one army should get the benefit of adding a D6" to a failed charge when another army with an almost identical ability is not allowed this benefit-

I say house rule it to not add the D6", applying spirit of the rules and not worrying about RAI-

Zoolander
20-09-2011, 23:33
For what it's worth the Bretonnian virtue- which is very similar states- "The Knight and any mmounted unit he is with, adds +D6" for the first charge that they declare (roll after declaring the charge). If the charge is failed the unit will not add this extra D6" to their failed charge movement."

While this does nothing to resolve the interpretation issue- it hardly seems fair to me that one army should get the benefit of adding a D6" to a failed charge when another army with an almost identical ability is not allowed this benefit-

I say house rule it to not add the D6", applying spirit of the rules and not worrying about RAI-

I would say that depends on the cost of the two items, and more importantly, each army has (had) similar items at different costs. It's not meant to be fair, but fluffy.

geldedgoat
21-09-2011, 00:53
"highest dice rolled for the charge" - since 3 dice were rolled for the charge, the highest of these dice is used to determine the Failed charge move.

Three dice weren't rolled for the charge; two were. The third dice is added to what was already rolled for the charge, but it doesn't count as one.

The problem lies with the undefined "charge move," and I think I'd lean towards a forced dice-off to solve it.

gogs78
21-09-2011, 12:05
Oh well, at least I won the game.

Now now!:)

Borzoni
21-09-2011, 12:22
:D This is quality!

T10
21-09-2011, 19:36
Technically, the Icon of Endless War adds 1d6" to the unit's first _charge move_, a game term that does not actually apply to 8th edition. I can only assume that this is generally taken to mean that you add 1d6" to the _charge range_ instead, in which case the bonus does not apply to the failed charge move. After all, you don't add anything else to the failed charge, such as your Movement.

The Daemon FAQ does not adress the issue.

geldedgoat
22-09-2011, 01:39
Technically, the Icon of Endless War adds 1d6" to the unit's first _charge move_, a game term that does not actually apply to 8th edition.

Pretty much. It needs an FAQ.