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Skarsgard
20-09-2011, 00:22
Can you use the word of agony (if you are in Base contact with the enemy units unit champion) to kill the unit champion before you declare a challenge?

Is this a legit tactic to kill off the unit champion to prevent him taking the challenge and forcing the enemy "character" to either take it or get sent packing?

Thanks

papabearshane
20-09-2011, 01:25
It might work but expect to get in some arguements about it. It would only work on your turn though as both Word and chalenging happen at the start of combat phase and the player whos turn it is decides in what order things go in.

Skarsgard
20-09-2011, 02:18
don't want to get into arguements over it. Just a thought that popped into my head. If it feels a bit funny I'd rather not do it.

Yrrdead
20-09-2011, 04:02
It appears to me that you can do it. Provided as papabearshane mentions , it is your turn and that obviously you are in base contact with said champion.

This is reinforced by the FAQ regarding Word of Agony and Assassins.

Harwammer
20-09-2011, 06:37
You're all wrong :p

You can do it on yours OR the opponent's turn because WOA is done at the start of the CC phase whereas challenges are issued at the start of a CC round.

So:
Start of combat phase: splat champion with WoA
Round 1: issue challenge, fight calculate result, break test, flee&pursue.
Round 2: issue challenge, fight calculate result, break test, flee&pursue.
Round 3: issue challenge, fight calculate result, break test, flee&pursue.
Ad nauseum

Yrrdead
20-09-2011, 06:40
You're all wrong :p

You can do it on yours OR the opponent's turn because WOA is done at the start of the CC phase whereas challenges are issued at the start of a CC round.

So:
Start of combat phase: splat champion with WoA
Round 1: issue challenge, fight calculate result, break test, flee&pursue.

Good luck with that argument.

Harwammer
20-09-2011, 07:04
Good luck with that argument.

In my experience there's no such thing as luck.

"Word of Agony ... At the beginning of the Close Combat phase"

"Challenges are issued at the start of the combat round, before any blows are struck (but after Impact Hits)."

"CLOSE COMBAT PHASE SEQUENCE
The player whose turn it is nominates a close combat involving one or more of his units and fights a round of close combat... Then proceed to the next close combat and continue until all units have fought."

As you can see the close combat phase consists of a series of close combat rounds. Word of Agony is used at the start of the phase (ie before any rounds are fought).

Yrrdead
20-09-2011, 07:10
I now see where you are coming from. Though I think it is a tiny bit shaky.

The shaky bit is mainly there is no explicit difference between the start of a combat phase and the combat round. To use an example. There is only a single unit in combat. The start of the combat phase and start of combat round are the same. They are only sequenced differently when there are multiple combats to differentiate between them. This differentiation is the choice of the players whose turn it is. Thus it could be said still the start of combat phase and 1st round of combat are one and the same and up to the discretion of the players whose turn it is.

At least that is what I would argue after I pulled my foot out of my mouth from my hasty previous post. :)

Harwammer
20-09-2011, 07:21
At least that is what I would argue after I pulled my foot out of my mouth from my hasty previous post. :)
Don't sweat it, it happens to the best of us! However, I think a multi round combat phase should be referred to for precedent on sequence regarding start of the phase (WoA) vs start of a round (challenges).

With knowledge of how it works in a multi round phase pushing for WoA/challenge issue to be simultaneous in a single round phase comes across as a bit of a technicality aimed at rendering redundant a 40 point one use only ability. I'd probably view this as a little unsporting, but not worth rage quitting over.

Yrrdead
20-09-2011, 07:54
It was the best recovery I could make. :) Though I do believe that I'm not correct and that your view is the right one.

Harwammer
20-09-2011, 08:52
To be fair both views are arguable*.

It depends if you view the combat phase as
[round 1][round 2][round 3]
(Where the start/end of the first/last round is synonymous with the start/end of the phase)
Or
[[round 1][round 2][round 3]]
(Where the combat phase has it's own beginning and end, between which all the rounds are fought)

*unless someone can prove otherwise? The first suggestion can probably create more weird situations so the second suggestion would be my preferred interpretation.

Zoolander
20-09-2011, 09:03
To be fair both views are arguable*.

It depends if you view the combat phase as
[round 1][round 2][round 3]
(Where the start/end of the first/last round is synonymous with the start/end of the phase)
Or
[[round 1][round 2][round 3]]
(Where the combat phase has it's own beginning and end, between which all the rounds are fought)

*unless someone can prove otherwise? The first suggestion can probably create more weird situations so the second suggestion would be my preferred interpretation.

I think you're right. It's the only good way of looking at it without causing problems.

theunwantedbeing
20-09-2011, 17:36
Word of Agony is at the start of the phase.
Challenges are declared at the start of the combat round.

The phase starts before any rounds do, so the word of agony can be used to snipe enemy champions. It's an expensive way of getting rid of enemy champions and only works once.

The Satyr
20-09-2011, 17:50
It's an expensive way of getting rid of enemy champions and only works once.I don't think its expensive considering it frees up your lord to do what he's there to do. 40pts ain't a lot to make up for.

badguyshaveallthefun
20-09-2011, 17:53
I don't think its expensive considering it frees up your lord to do what he's there to do. 40pts ain't a lot to make up for.

This. I would gladly pay the 40 points to be able to either a) munch a character in a challenge, b) force a character to retire because of a refused challenge, or c) grind on rank-and-file troops to help get rid of steadfast, thus speeding along their [inevitable :evilgrin:] break test.

EDIT: And it's not like Warriors have that great of gifts to choose from anyway.

Tregar
20-09-2011, 18:08
Any character that wants to fight will accept the challenge. Any character that doesn't, will refuse. The only uses are to get rid of a champion for option (c) or to try and wipe out a highly-armoured character (lots of 1+ re-rollable BSBs in this game)... for 40 points, it's okay, but nothing amazing. If Chaos characters didn't have to constantly challenge, it would be rubbish. Good thing there's a dumb rule in place to make it useful then!

AMWOOD co
20-09-2011, 18:20
To be fair both views are arguable*.

It depends if you view the combat phase as
[round 1][round 2][round 3]
(Where the start/end of the first/last round is synonymous with the start/end of the phase)
Or
[[round 1][round 2][round 3]]
(Where the combat phase has it's own beginning and end, between which all the rounds are fought)

*unless someone can prove otherwise? The first suggestion can probably create more weird situations so the second suggestion would be my preferred interpretation.

I would go for the second suggestion as well. The simple reason is that the phase begins and the first thing that happens is the player whose turn it is decides which combat is fought first. The phase ends after the last combat has been fought and it is confirmed there are no others (You know how it is, "Oh, wait, I charged your warmachine with that guy!").

badguyshaveallthefun
20-09-2011, 18:53
Any character that wants to fight will accept the challenge. Any character that doesn't, will refuse. The only uses are to get rid of a champion for option (c) or to try and wipe out a highly-armoured character (lots of 1+ re-rollable BSBs in this game)... for 40 points, it's okay, but nothing amazing. If Chaos characters didn't have to constantly challenge, it would be rubbish. Good thing there's a dumb rule in place to make it useful then!

I'm unlike most people though and regularly take a Chaos Lord. I also really like to take the sword-of-doesn't-allow-armor-saves, or the axe-of-+1strength-and-killing-blow, to deal with those BSB's that seem to think an armor save is enough. True, he's not as defensible as most characters, but a 5+ ward save has gotten me by well enough thus far.

Skarsgard
20-09-2011, 21:04
So the upshot of this is that it might be legit after all.

Interesting.

theunwantedbeing
20-09-2011, 22:07
So the upshot of this is that it might be legit after all.

Not might be, it is legit.

Similarly you can use items that cause strength/toughness tests in the magic phase to take out opposing champions before they become an issue during the combat phase.