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brynolf
20-09-2011, 15:27
Ok, so if you assault a building, you may attack with 10 models. If you attack a war machine, you get to use 6 models. Nothing explicitly mentioned regarding warmachines IN buildings, but is there some kind of logic in letting 10 models attack a warmachine that's garrisoned?

Scalebug
20-09-2011, 15:30
What would that logic be?


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Think of it like this; 10 models are assigned to assault a building. Of these 10, 6 are allowed to attack a warmachine, and will do so.

Korraz
20-09-2011, 16:11
No.
(Characters for the Character God! Letters for Wintermute!)

AMWOOD co
20-09-2011, 18:26
To put it simply, you are presented with two limitations.
No more than 10 models for assaulting a building
No more than 6 models for attacking a warmachine
This being said, you aren't allowed to violate either of these. Well, a number that is 6 or less is also less than 10, so you must follow the limitation for attacking a warmachine (with the additional difficulty of not getting any kind of charge bonus for assaulting a building).

Zed!
20-09-2011, 18:52
Isn't there also a rule about max. 3 models being in base contact with a single model inside a building?

badguyshaveallthefun
20-09-2011, 19:25
There is no "base contact" inside buildings. Both sides select 10 models from the available units and those 10 models fight it out with 10 models of the opposing side. Or 6 models fight it out with a warmachine crew in the case of a warmachine in a building like the OP stated.

brynolf
20-09-2011, 21:46
Thanks guys, I didn't think there was either... Just a little confusing rules chat we had last weekend.

eron12
21-09-2011, 04:58
Isn't there also a rule about max. 3 models being in base contact with a single model inside a building?

I don't have my rulebook at the moment, but there is a rule about the maximum models that can attack a single model in a building assault (half I think). That might cause an additional effect in this situation.

Yrrdead
21-09-2011, 05:02
I don't have my rulebook at the moment, but there is a rule about the maximum models that can attack a single model in a building assault (half I think). That might cause an additional effect in this situation.

Doesn't apply in the case of a war machine. Since the rule is specific towards allocating attacks on models who that applies too, which isn't war machines.

Harwammer
21-09-2011, 10:40
You select an assault party of 10, 6 of which may attack the war machine. Simples!

DaemonReign
21-09-2011, 18:47
Right..

So how come you can attack 3 infantry models in a building with 10 attackers, but if these 3 infantry models happen to be a 'crew' suddenly on 6 can get to them.

You're not basing this on anything but opinions. There's no 'rule' covering this.

Scalebug
21-09-2011, 19:01
Right..

So how come you can attack 3 infantry models in a building with 10 attackers, but if these 3 infantry models happen to be a 'crew' suddenly on 6 can get to them.

You're not basing this on anything but opinions. There's no 'rule' covering this.

Ehh... this is not based on opinion, it is based on using both the rules for buildings, and the rules for warmachines... That is the rules covering it...

brynolf
21-09-2011, 19:04
Right..

So how come you can attack 3 infantry models in a building with 10 attackers, but if these 3 infantry models happen to be a 'crew' suddenly on 6 can get to them.

You're not basing this on anything but opinions. There's no 'rule' covering this.


Ok, that's actually a good point. The rules makes no sense in your example.

But to be fair, there IS a rule. It says six models may strike at a warmachine. Regardless of it being out in the open, in a building or on top of a giant flying balloon.

Yrrdead
21-09-2011, 19:05
Well DaemonReign is kind of right. There isn't a 'rule' covering this.....there are multiple rules. :)

Edit -


Ok, that's actually a good point. The rules makes no sense in your example.

But to be fair, there IS a rule. It says six models may strike at a warmachine. Regardless of it being out in the open, in a building or on top of a giant flying balloon.

It isn't a good point btw. It is a bad example that doesn't apply to what we are talking about. 3 infantry models != warmachine.

brynolf
21-09-2011, 19:15
It isn't a good point btw. It is a bad example that doesn't apply to what we are talking about. 3 infantry models != warmachine.

Rules-wise it is a bad point (cause RAW it's technically wrong). "Rules that make sense-wise", it is a good point. A warmachine isn't much else than 3 infantry models after all.

Harwammer
21-09-2011, 19:20
how come you can attack 3 infantry models in a building with 10 attackers, but if these 3 infantry models happen to be a 'crew' suddenly on 6 can get to them.
I'll try to give a more thought out response to the rules issue at a later time.


You're not basing this on anything but opinions. There's no 'rule' covering this.
That's a lie or at least a misjudgement; my words were not based exclusively on opinions but also on the rules 'both players choose ten models' and rule 'the player whose unit(s) are attacking the war machine must choose six models' (amongst others).

Such a comment isn't really helpful to the discussion and frankly came across to me as rude, though I'm sure that wasn't your intention.

Edit: ooh I got massively ninja'd! Thanks Scalebug for leaping to my defence :D

Yrrdead
21-09-2011, 19:23
Rules-wise it is a bad point (cause RAW it's technically wrong). "Rules that make sense-wise", it is a good point. A warmachine isn't much else than 3 infantry models after all.

What? A warmachine is a very distinct category, in the frame of the game of Warhammer. Which is the frame that this forum is based on. Stepping outside of that frame to make an argument is a bad idea...."sense-wise".

DaemonReign
21-09-2011, 19:35
Only 6 models attacking a Warmachine

I see a unit coming from One direction, in formation, attacking 2-3 crewmen that are partly cowering behind a Warmachine. The 6 models (only) attacking is a generalization - basically derived from how many models would get to attack the Crew "if it was" just 3 random infantry guys.

Attacking buildings
Forget about cowering behind the Warmachine. Forget about the Formation. Forget about being in base to base.
People are jumping in through the windows, the doors, poking sticks through the walls of the house even - there's no place to hide, and the "standard" rules for attacking a warmachine out in the open with a formation-charge shouldn't apply. I don't think it's fluffy. And I think the assertion that you "take both rules" and mix them together is false logic - i.e. opinion.

Sorry
Didn't mean to offend.

Harwammer
21-09-2011, 19:53
Only 6 models attacking a Warmachine

I see a unit coming from One direction, in formation, attacking 2-3 crewmen that are partly cowering behind a Warmachine. The 6 models (only) attacking is a generalization - basically derived from how many models would get to attack the Crew "if it was" just 3 random infantry guys.

Attacking buildings
Forget about cowering behind the Warmachine. Forget about the Formation. Forget about being in base to base.
People are jumping in through the windows, the doors, poking sticks through the walls of the house even - there's no place to hide, and the "standard" rules for attacking a warmachine out in the open with a formation-charge shouldn't apply. I don't think it's fluffy.
If we're going to discuss what makes sense then when dealing with a building assault they (the crew) don't have a full unit coming at them... And if cowering under a warmachine is a better defensive position than blocking windows why would they abandon it? So again, with a 'makes sense' approach ten could enter the building and 6 would be able to attack the machine?


And I think the assertion that you "take both rules" and mix them together is false logic - i.e. opinion.

Sorry
Didn't mean to offend.
Thanks... I think I over reacted cos I hadn't had my dinner yet (am chewing it as I type!) so I apologise too!

Scalebug
21-09-2011, 20:02
Attacking buildings
Forget about cowering behind the Warmachine. Forget about the Formation. Forget about being in base to base.
People are jumping in through the windows, the doors, poking sticks through the walls of the house even - there's no place to hide, and the "standard" rules for attacking a warmachine out in the open with a formation-charge shouldn't apply. I don't think it's fluffy. And I think the assertion that you "take both rules" and mix them together is false logic - i.e. opinion.


Ehh... No.. what you are saying there is just opinion. Everyone else is basing it on what we read in the rulebook, you base it on "I don't think it's fluffy".

Morax
21-09-2011, 20:34
I don't have my rulebook at the moment, but there is a rule about the maximum models that can attack a single model in a building assault (half I think). That might cause an additional effect in this situation.

There is a rule that states that half of the enemy models may direct their attacks against a model that otherwise could be singled out. It gives the examples of champions and charcters in the rule. This rule would allow you to dedicate up to 3 attacks at any champion the warmachine has (Orc champion on a goblin machine, dwarven engineer) as it makes no metion of the assaulting party, just "enemy models".

Yrrdead
21-09-2011, 20:39
There is a rule that states that half of the enemy models may direct their attacks against a model that otherwise could be singled out. It gives the examples of champions and charcters in the rule. This rule would allow you to dedicate up to 3 attacks at any champion the warmachine has (Orc champion on a goblin machine, dwarven engineer) as it makes no metion of the assaulting party, just "enemy models".

That is not correct. You mention the reason in your post. "otherwise could be singled out." Which warmachine crew cannot be.

DaemonReign
21-09-2011, 21:20
Yes I am just stating my opinion on what I think makes the most sense. So is everyone else as far as I am concerned.

So.. In a building, appearantly, a total of 10 attackers may direct their attacks on 1 enemy model sitting in the building - while only 6 models are allowed to strike blows at the 2-4 crewmen that could be manning a Warmachine in that same building.

That's the net result of what you're saying. And I'm the bad egg for thinking that rules for attacking Warmachines apply to units charging Warmachines, while rules for charging buildings apply for charging buildings - and that there's absolutely no RAW direction as to why or how those rules would intertwine or overlap.

This whole issue arose in our group because I suggested that we make a "houserule" (about Houses, no pun intended) allowing Warmachines to sit "ontop" of buildings while another friendly unit 'defends' them down on the ground-floor. My Warmachine-weilding friends liked that idea, but then we ran into this quagmire of whether 10 or 6 models should get to attack the crew (if there's no other unit to 'defend' them, as it were) - so 'meh' (this is what I get for wanting to hand out a buff to my Dwarven/Empire opponants).

:)

eron12
21-09-2011, 21:54
Yes I am just stating my opinion on what I think makes the most sense. So is everyone else as far as I am concerned.

So the fact that everyone else is using rules found in the book doesn't count? Just because you don't like the rules doesn't make them opinion.


So.. In a building, appearantly, a total of 10 attackers may direct their attacks on 1 enemy model sitting in the building - while only 6 models are allowed to strike blows at the 2-4 crewmen that could be manning a Warmachine in that same building.

That's the net result of what you're saying. And I'm the bad egg for thinking that rules for attacking Warmachines apply to units charging Warmachines, while rules for charging buildings apply for charging buildings - and that there's absolutely no RAW direction as to why or how those rules would intertwine or overlap.

Except for the clause after the - you're right on. Let me ask you, does a warmachine in a building cease to be a warmachine? If it does not, why would rules appling to warmachines cease to apply? The rules do not say 6 models may attack a warmachine unless it is in a building, therefore the 6 model rule continues to apply.

Perhaps you would have better results by posting rules, rather than just calling rules posted by others opinions.

shelfunit.
22-09-2011, 10:04
I thought there were no "crew" for warmachines anymore? The models are just (effectively) wound counters now for the machine itself aren't they? They don't affect LOS and cannot be measured to or from for any distance related mechanic, and for all intents and purposes don't exist as on-the-board entities. Their only ingame uses are (as above) a) Wound counters and b) determinining how many times the warmachine attacks in combat.

Harwammer
22-09-2011, 10:13
You pretty much have it shelfunit. There's a box explaining the crew on the first page of the warmachine rules... I'm going to attempt a rules wheelie by guessing a page number... I think it's 108?

Capt._Jaelinek
22-09-2011, 19:36
This whole issue arose in our group because I suggested that we make a "houserule" (about Houses, no pun intended) allowing Warmachines to sit "ontop" of buildings while another friendly unit 'defends' them down on the ground-floor. My Warmachine-weilding friends liked that idea, but then we ran into this quagmire of whether 10 or 6 models should get to attack the crew (if there's no other unit to 'defend' them, as it were) - so 'meh' (this is what I get for wanting to hand out a buff to my Dwarven/Empire opponants).
:)

since you are using house rules, why not say that the war machine cannot be attacked until the defenders on the lower level are destroyed or vacate the building. Then you can use the BRB rules for attacking a warmachine. There are rules for larger buildings that can be used for multi-level buildings as well.

Almost doesn't need house rules.