PDA

View Full Version : Starting DoC - Tips



Vomikron Noxis
21-09-2011, 13:01
Hey all,

So I've decided (finally) to take the plunge back into Fantasy with a Daemons of Chaos army, and I was wondering where to start? What works with DoC these days and what doesn't?

I have in my collection:

3 x Bloodcrushers
10 x Bloodletters
A handful of Plaguebearers
GUO
LoC/Fateweaver
Bloodthirster

Where do I go from here? Any advice would be most welcome!

Rosstifer
21-09-2011, 13:12
People might hate me for saying this, but I think you need 70 more Bloodletters, make 2 Hordes of 40. Hordes of Bloodletters brutalize things. Put a Khorne Herald with Flaming Blade thingy and Armour of Khorne in each.

I think a unit of 6-7 Fiends would add alot, they are fast and reasonably pokey.

A unit of 12 or so Flamers for some ranged punch. If both fit in your Rare percentage.

Herald of Tzeentch on Disc knowing all of a Lore, Death, Shadow, Life all are good choices.

Greater Daemons are alright but in 2000-2500point games they just cost too many points. Bloodcrushers are eh, modes are gorgeous though. Horrors need to be in a big unit, but they are your easiest way to get a Level 4 wizard. Plaguebearers work, but you want 26-29 in a deep block with a Herald with the re-roll wounds gift. Basically, always take a Herald in infantry units. Daemonettes are pretty good, Flesh Hounds are very meh, 10 might work but that's alot of points, Beasts of Nurgle are very overpointed, Screamers are just mediocre, Furies work alright as warmachine hunters. Seekers are probably a bit pricey. Nurglings...meh. Daemon Princes are hilarious.

In summary -
All Greater Daemons - Average
Daemon Prince - Ha. Hahahaha, ha.
Heralds - Amazing
Bloodletters - Amazing
Daemonettes - Good
Plaguebearers - Good
Horrors - Good
Furies - Average
Fleshhounds - Sub-Par
Nurglings - Sub-Par
Screamers - Sub-Par
Seekers - Sub-Par
Bloodcrushers - Average
Fiends - Good
Flamers - Amazing
Beast of Nurgle - Sub-Par

It's worth mentioning that Sub-Par with Daemons is pretty decent by the standards of lots of other armies.
I'll stop with the ultra-filth now... :D

drear
21-09-2011, 13:27
i fear the DOC advice given here will revolve around take x amount of blood letters, and khorne/tzeench heralds.

i think you should look at what you have and build off 1 of those gods.

you could go down the blood letter route, even in units of 20 they pack a punch.
and coupled with life magic they are very hard to get rid of.

you could try all slaneesh. slaneesh heralds in deamonette units giving them ASF , using the masque and slaneesh magic to mess with LD and break tests etc

you could try using a large unit of plague bearers, with epidmus to tally up the kills.

go for a tzeench magic themed army , lots of horrors and flamers!

there are so many possibilities, just based on a single god list. mix gods up and theres even more possibilities.

just keep in mind that most lists that will get suggested here will be competetive lists.

laribold
21-09-2011, 13:49
Daemon Princes are hilarious.

In summary -
Daemon Prince - Ha. Hahahaha, ha.


So other than not taking one, how can Daemon Princes be made to function better?

Both in terms of equipping them and what to use them in conjunction with?

Rosstifer
21-09-2011, 13:54
Immortal Fury, Armed Monstrosity and Level 1 Wizard with the Mark of Nurgle, take the basic spell, he'd be reasonably pokey. Could rack up some kills, maybe assassinate some Characters, or go in with a block like Horrors to add kills to their ranks and standard. What do you want it to do exactly?

Andy p
21-09-2011, 14:01
I really want to say something along the lines of: "Who needs help with Daemons? They're DAEMONS!!"

But I know that would be unfair and also wrong, as well as unhelpful.

There are a few options though, the aforementioned bloodletter hordes, ld stuff Slaanesh is pretty nasty still and I even think Nurgle isnt as bad as people make out.

laribold
21-09-2011, 14:45
Immortal Fury, Armed Monstrosity and Level 1 Wizard with the Mark of Nurgle, take the basic spell, he'd be reasonably pokey. Could rack up some kills, maybe assassinate some Characters, or go in with a block like Horrors to add kills to their ranks and standard. What do you want it to do exactly?

That's a pretty good question - What do I want it to do?

I think the primary thing I want it to do is take out the enemy's support units (things like Warshrines, Doomwheels, Chariots, Black Coaches, plus any small cavalry units) with backing up infantry units as a secondary task.

I definitely want to give it Winged Horror (for modelling and fluff reasons).
I'm wondering why go with Immortal Fury as wouldn't Unnatural Swiftness achieve the same result plus give it ASF? It's Initiative is high enough (7) to pretty much guarantee the re-rolls through ASF.

The bearded one
21-09-2011, 15:06
Does "don't do it, for the love of god, don't do it!!" count as a tip?

Valnir
21-09-2011, 15:11
If you're just starting out, what's your environment like? Is your group ultra competitive? or a friendly atmosphere?

If competitive then as mentioned before load up on the blood letters and flamers and you can't go wrong, take in mind you will probably loose many friendships on this path, but hey if you need to win you need to win :rolleyes:

If you're planing on playing in a more friendly environment stick to a mono god or take some of the "chaff" (which really isn't chaff, just compared to other choices in the book they seem like it)

Lastly IMHO if you truly want to prove that you're a good general and tactican you shouldn't need the crutch of taking all the powerful things in an army book, you should be able to take the sub par units and use them in a way that they turn out amazing :D

laribold
21-09-2011, 15:14
In today's 8th edition world I'm interested as to why Daemons are still seen as the 'hate' army.

Whilst they still seem to be powerful, are they realistically that much more overpowered than say, Skaven or Dark Elves?
Is the anti-daemon feeling just a hangover from 7th?

Just interested in finding out why...

The bearded one
21-09-2011, 15:17
Losing 28 templeguard in 2 rounds when fighting a unit I had shot down to about 16-17 bloodletters does that to you.



And that happened twice.

laribold
21-09-2011, 15:22
Ouchy... That's gonna hurt...

So is it just the Bloodletters and their KB that drive the wheels of daemon-hate?

The bearded one
21-09-2011, 18:53
and the general underpricedness or overpoweredness of units and items. For example why do flamers need 2 wounds at T4 and 2 str5? They're supposed to be a shooting unit but are really tough.

DaemonReign
21-09-2011, 19:17
@The OP:

Daemons are a great army to collect. I've got 30k of painted stuff and I still can't bring myself to stop collecting them.

Internal balance of the book is amongst the best there is. You've got really only 3 units that are 'sub-par' thanks to changes with 8th Ed:
- Daemon Prince
- Horrors
- Screamers

And yeah I'd say 'in that order'.

So yeah if you want to play 'nice' and hand your friends a victory or two then load up on them three choices. The rest of them (Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, Daemonettes, FleshHounds, Nurglings, (even) Seekers, Crushers, and Fiends) all have their uses. All though they require different approaches and tactics.

What's so sweet about Daemons is that you can go "mono-god" and challange yourself a little extra - if you happen to like one of the "marks" over the others. And in the mixed list setting, like I said, you've got great internal balance to play around with.

Bloodletter-Hordes are pretty hyped, and that's because their style of play is very straight-forward. What you need to worry about is simply connecting with a charge as early as possible in the game. I usually run my BL-horde about 55 strong. Last game I played with Daemons I had 3 Hordes like that.

Other posters are right of course that supporting attacks have made Bloodletters undercosted in 8th Ed. They should be 13pts and not just 12. But looking at the "whole" army Daemonettes should really go down a point, and Horrors (unless getting new "magic rules") needs to go down well beneath 10pts in order to become a viable choice again.. which probably would not cut it either, since they'd still be stuck competing for those 12 dice with all your other wizards. So Horrors, I'm afraid, won't be worthwhile until we get a new book (which shouldn't be any time soon I'm afraid).

When it comes to external balance and 'hate against Daemons', well, between the 30+ power dice and autobreaking from fear etcetera in 7th Ed I have some sympathy for complaints about Daemons in 7th Ed ... All though I was repeatedly beaten by Dark Elves (and I am man enough to admit that this was because the opposing player was simply Better Than Me) in 7th.

In 8th Ed Daemons are a balanced army. Some whiners are gonna have a go at you as soon as you bring up Daemons in any serious form or fashion, but you're just gonna have to block that out because that's all about people being stubborn and not liking to have to change their minds. I mean, the hobby is dear to us all, and some things "we learn" are hard to unlearn, they run deep and become almost like an "image" or "part of who we are as gamers". So some "Daemon-haters" from 7th are just having a hard time adjusting to 8th Ed, and thus they troll around these forums in a more or less sincere manner.

In all seriousness, in 8th Ed I personally feel that I can make "nastier" stuff with Dark Elves compared to what I can do with Daemons. Dark Elves have better shooting (compare Flamers to RepeaterCrossBows and those Flamer-stats suddenly look pretty moderate at 35pts/model - Flamers are just not that good anymore, they used to be when units were smaller, but those days are over.. and I'd be fine with Flamers having One Wound and less Toughness, but you'd of course have to drop their cost accordingly so I don't know what they'd really give those who complain about them).

I've little experience of Skaven or Lizardmen, but I know there are alot of people who concider them at least as good as Daemons are right now. I do face Empire and Dwarves like every other game I play, and they are certainly worthy opponants too.

The races I would concider weak (against Daemons specifically) are probably OnG, Ogres, and VC (don't know about TK yet) - so against such opponants I would probably tone down the nasty Daemon stuff if I played a friendly game. Because yeah if you flood the board with Letters against those enemies then they'll be in trouble.

But really, and again @the OP: The world is your oyster when it comes to Daemons. It's all about how big your collection is gonna be, and what units/models that you find appealing. Personally I basically started Daemons because of Bloodletters, I just love the Khorne models(!), and I fielded them in "horde-formation" back in 7th Ed already because that's how I like the battle-field to look. Really just got lucky with 8th Ed going the direction I already envisioned Warhammer to be the most fun.

Yrrdead
21-09-2011, 19:29
In today's 8th edition world I'm interested as to why Daemons are still seen as the 'hate' army.

Whilst they still seem to be powerful, are they realistically that much more overpowered than say, Skaven or Dark Elves?
Is the anti-daemon feeling just a hangover from 7th?

Just interested in finding out why...

Some of that is still left over from 7th. But two keys in 8th are Good Core Infantry and Good Magic.

Daemons have both of those. They don't need a general or bsb. Their core is really really good both in regards to performance and points cost. ItP,Unbreakable, still benefit from steadfast(ie don't crumble). Underpriced Lvl 2 Hero casters with 4++ and access to loremaster. A core unit that can be lvl 4 caster (dependent on size) to handle dispels that can also tarpit.

@OP
What works? What rossitifer said. To recap. All core, all heralds, Flamers.

Andy p
21-09-2011, 21:52
and the general underpricedness or overpoweredness of units and items. For example why do flamers need 2 wounds at T4 and 2 str5? They're supposed to be a shooting unit but are really tough.

Yeah I lost a giant to 6 of them once, it was either charge or be shot, my opponent then spent the rest of the game leaving the table and going round the room telling everyone about how: "he lost a giant to a SHOOTING unit in COMBAT".

I just stood there with, what I suspect, was a confused look on my face, I really didnt understand the joy in such a feat as I find giants to be pretty soft at the best of times. :p

I didnt really take it personally I just laughed along with him, especially when he fell sideways onto a goblin unit.:D I was just bemused by the notion that flamers are a normal shooting unit and are therefore weak in combat regardless of what stats they have.

ps: Daemon Reign, dont take this as a personal attack as it is really just a semi-innocent question but: Do you play anything else besides Daemons?

They certainly arent all conquering monsters, but im sure you can understand why some people who play other armies might see them in a bad light? And not just because of 7th either.

Arijharn
22-09-2011, 12:27
I don't think Screamers are really 'sub par' tbh, they just can't be used as a 'standard' unit. Screamers are missile troops essentially, but the Screamers themselves have to be moved and deployed 'craftily' because they really put themselves into a position of being smooshed into paste if you're not careful.

Screamers working in concert with Flamers will obliterate units, moreso if you get Birona's Timewarp off on them.

brother_maynard
22-09-2011, 16:41
Losing 28 templeguard in 2 rounds when fighting a unit I had shot down to about 16-17 bloodletters does that to you.
lizardmen complaining that another army is overpowered? you sir, are a comedic genius, excuse me while i put my spleen back in from laughter ;)

my beastmen do this the the local LM players on a regular basis, are beastmen overpowered as well?


and the general underpricedness or overpoweredness of units and items. For example why do flamers need 2 wounds at T4 and 2 str5? They're supposed to be a shooting unit but are really tough. they cost 35 pts apiece. i'm sorry but an 18" range S4 random shot attack is not a justification for that price tag, especially not with the rise of uber-units, 40 plus models being commonplace. a unit of 6 flamers will average 3 wounds against a saurus unit at long range and having moved (they should be keeping their distance and moving if the LM player is using his chameleons/sallies/terradons with any tactical acumen whatsoever). averaging 3 wounds per shooting phase against T4 foes? give me chameleons any day...


Some of that is still left over from 7th. But two keys in 8th are Good Core Infantry and Good Magic.

Daemons have both of those. They don't need a general or bsb. Their core is really really good both in regards to performance and points cost. ItP,Unbreakable, still benefit from steadfast(ie don't crumble). Underpriced Lvl 2 Hero casters with 4++ and access to loremaster. A core unit that can be lvl 4 caster (dependent on size) to handle dispels that can also tarpit.

horrors can only tarpit reasonably well if a herald is included, which defeats the whole purpose. tarpits are used to slow or bog down powerful enemies, pretty much the last place you want your level 2 caster. it looks good on paper but simply doesn't work in real life. and that level 4 caster horror unit also costs more than most level 4's, is restricted almost entirely to magic missiles, is very difficult to protect against a savvy opponent AND competes with loremasters for power dice. which means 90% of the time, it doesn't cast at all. so you're paying 500 pts for +4 to dispel that you lose after 5 casualties. i'm sorry, claiming that horrors contribute to the overpoweredness of daemons' magic phase is just not supportable. as for the underpriced level 2 casters, they're a balance to the fact that you're stuck paying 500 pts for a level 4 unit of horrors or 600 pts for a level 4 greater daemon. this is a pretty heavy countermeasure to the "low price" of loremaster level 2's in an edition where a level 4 is considered ubiquitous and indispensable. yes daemons are powerful in the magic phase but again, nothing that puts them out of league with other armies, due to the unique effectiveness of their level 2's and relative vulnerability of their level 4's.


I don't think Screamers are really 'sub par' tbh, they just can't be used as a 'standard' unit. Screamers are missile troops essentially, but the Screamers themselves have to be moved and deployed 'craftily' because they really put themselves into a position of being smooshed into paste if you're not careful.

Screamers working in concert with Flamers will obliterate units, moreso if you get Birona's Timewarp off on them.

they're 35 pts for a T3, 1W, 5++ model. a unit of 6 won't survive even the tamest shooting phase and contributes a whopping 210 VP's. this is a HEFTY liability. if you only use units of 3, they'll get shot at less but the damage they'll do (3 S5 hits, 6 if your opponent lets you fly over 2 units) is negligible. so no, units of screamers will not obliterate anything, even in conjunction with flamers (which we postulated will do 3-5 wounds vs T4 5+ foes depending on range), especially not in a game where unit size is commonly 30+. and if you're wasting birona's on screamers, you either a) don't have any units of bloodletters or plaguebearers or b) need to re-prioritize your magic phase.

now do i think flamers suck? no, they're a brilliant unit. but the hate that they get is completely disproportionate to their effectiveness. don't believe me, check out my most recent battle report vs TK in which i brought 2 units of 6. anecdotal? again yes, but if you don't want anecdotal, we can refer back to the math which again shows that their shooting isn't near as good as people think. 8th edition fixed flamers as far as i'm concerned.

@ the OP, the best advice i can give to a new DoC player is to head over to the daemonic legion forum. a vast majority of warseerites still have the 7th ed daemon hangover and replies will pretty much reflect Andy P's reply.

@ the general forum- i play against daemons much more than i use my own daemon army and trounce them with my beastmen regularly. if at this point you're still finding daemons impossible to win against, i'd either call your generalship into question or advise you to learn more about the army. i'd be happy to offer advice on beating daemons as well, knowing the army is key.

edit:


For example why do flamers need 2 wounds at T4 and 2 str5? They're supposed to be a shooting unit but are really tough.lol, you must hate leadbelchers...

ChrisIronBrow
22-09-2011, 17:41
So, the first post here has been about the only helpful one. Daemons are not overpowered in 8th.

Bloodletters are your best troop choice, and you need at least 80 of them to compete with top tier armies. Always Heralds of tzeentch, etc. GuO can actually be an amazing General in 2500pts. Try him with Noxious vapors, and balesword. He kills everything, and he does it first. :P

AlphariusOmegon20
22-09-2011, 18:04
People might hate me for saying this, but I think you need 70 more Bloodletters, make 2 Hordes of 40. Hordes of Bloodletters brutalize things. Put a Khorne Herald with Flaming Blade thingy and Armour of Khorne in each.

I think a unit of 6-7 Fiends would add alot, they are fast and reasonably pokey.

A unit of 12 or so Flamers for some ranged punch. If both fit in your Rare percentage.

Herald of Tzeentch on Disc knowing all of a Lore, Death, Shadow, Life all are good choices.

Greater Daemons are alright but in 2000-2500point games they just cost too many points. Bloodcrushers are eh, modes are gorgeous though. Horrors need to be in a big unit, but they are your easiest way to get a Level 4 wizard. Plaguebearers work, but you want 26-29 in a deep block with a Herald with the re-roll wounds gift. Basically, always take a Herald in infantry units. Daemonettes are pretty good, Flesh Hounds are very meh, 10 might work but that's alot of points, Beasts of Nurgle are very overpointed, Screamers are just mediocre, Furies work alright as warmachine hunters. Seekers are probably a bit pricey. Nurglings...meh. Daemon Princes are hilarious.

In summary -
All Greater Daemons - Average
Daemon Prince - Ha. Hahahaha, ha.
Heralds - Amazing
Bloodletters - Amazing
Daemonettes - Good
Plaguebearers - Good
Horrors - Good
Furies - Average
Fleshhounds - Sub-Par
Nurglings - Sub-Par
Screamers - Sub-Par
Seekers - Sub-Par
Bloodcrushers - Average
Fiends - Good
Flamers - Amazing
Beast of Nurgle - Sub-Par

It's worth mentioning that Sub-Par with Daemons is pretty decent by the standards of lots of other armies.
I'll stop with the ultra-filth now... :D

Oh please, Nurgle units are worthless now with the changes to Ward/Regen.

I'll go unit by unit later to show you where you're wrong with most of the rest, I simply do not have the time to do so at this minute.

TrueKin
22-09-2011, 21:42
If you decide to go mono-God, but have difficulties choosing the God, consider it this way: Khorne makes about 4/5 of players to hate you and your army, Slaanesh makes rather nice lists without being OP, and Tzeentch and Nurgle -only-lists can seem like giving your opponent an edge when playing against some armies.

Daemon Princes aren't actually as bad as people make them out to be, but they're overpriced for what they do. They just can't compete with Heralds and Greater Daemons.

Generally, if you want to be competitive, you can't go wrong with hordes of Bloodletters. Add some Flamers, and fill Hero allowance with Heralds of Khorne and maybe some Heralds of Tzeentch with Master of Sorcery. About any lore will do, but I've favoured Life over the others (as I play Tzeentch and Life is nice and Tzeentchy... and keeps my Horrors from dying straight away :D). If you want to be friendly, you avoid especially large blocks of Bloodletters. Anything else is quite fine. Wouldn't recommend using Nurglings and Beasts of Nurgle, though. They're the most useless units in the book as far as I know, and should only be used for fluff-reasons only.

The bearded one
22-09-2011, 22:13
lizardmen complaining that another army is overpowered? you sir, are a comedic genius, excuse me while i put my spleen back in from laughter ;)

My lizardmen army is actually quite tame, apart from the Slann, 2 salamanders and 5 chameleons. Even then, apart from those 3 there are few things in the lizardmen army that'd easily be overpowered, except maybe stuff like 50 templeguard flanked by engines of the gods? At least with dark elves, daemons, skaven and warriors I can more easily point out overpowered things (pendant and dagger, hydra, bloodletters, HPA, slavetrains, templateterror and plaguemonk+furnace hordes, chosen and khorne marauders with great weapons)


lol, you must hate leadbelchers...

Not at all, because they do not have a 5+ wardsave and aren't skirmishers.

It's just unbelievable how much the wardsave and skirmishing are underestimated.. A 5+ wardsave is great and skirmishing is incredibly for ranged troops.

Not to mention the 'verges-on-unbreakable'-instability. With leadbelchers I can at least charge them, beat them and be reasonably sure they run away. If I were to charge an ancient stegadon at flamers, they're going to hold him up for at least a turn despite impact hits, hitting on 3's and thunderstomp




i'd be happy to offer advice on beating daemons as well, knowing the army is key.

I can trounce 2 of the 3 (mostly) khorne daemon players quite happily, only one is giving me trouble from an experienced player;

How'd you deal with a list featuring 3 hordes of 39 bloodletters with +D6" charge banner, 3 khorne heralds (1 BSb with standard of sundering), tzeentch loremaster herald with lore of life and 2x5 flamers?

My normal lizzie army is 28 TG, 24 saurus, scar veteran, lvl2 skink priest 2 units of 1 salamanders, 32 skinks (12 blowpipes, 10 blowpipes, 10 javelins), 20 ranked skinks & 2 kroxigors, 5 chameleons, ancient stegadon

fusionmonkey
22-09-2011, 22:23
plauge bearers are still nails. they just do diffent things than last eddition, now they are quite pokey with the 25 points reroll to wound banner and a herald with the s4 breath weapon so it can reroll to wound.
i have a unit of 30 and they are always alive at the end of the game and always earnt there points back.

also if you want something fun then take some deamonnets and then a herald of tzeench with shaddow. mind razor or withering can pu ther hurt on.

Rosstifer
23-09-2011, 00:42
Oh please, Nurgle units are worthless now with the changes to Ward/Regen.

I'll go unit by unit later to show you where you're wrong with most of the rest, I simply do not have the time to do so at this minute.

Cool.... How polite.
Feel free, but from a competitive point of view I'm pretty confident with my choices.
As has been stated, with a Herald Plaguebearers are decent and have nice grind potential. Hardly worthless. Not broken like 7th, but it doesn't automaticallly disqualify them from consideration.

Arijharn
23-09-2011, 01:25
... so no, units of screamers will not obliterate anything, even in conjunction with flamers (which we postulated will do 3-5 wounds vs T4 5+ foes depending on range), especially not in a game where unit size is commonly 30+. and if you're wasting birona's on screamers, you either a) don't have any units of bloodletters or plaguebearers or b) need to re-prioritize your magic phase.


...or c) You can effectively use terrain/features to block line of sight from his missile troops and/or war marchines and provide a nice set up attack, considering it's highly unlikely that all of your units will be in melee with all of his by turn 2. Is this going to be the case all the time? Of course not! But you can still hide screamers behind your own units until it's 'time' (so they are at least at a further -2 to hit courtesy of hard cover)

Would flamer/screamers be game changing, no, but if you can knock off even a complete rank then that's going to help you down the track. 'Obliteration' was very much the wrong word to use, but you are going (but not pathetic rolls like your 5 1's or something in your latest battle rep with the flamers shooting the hierotitan ;)) to put a sizeable dent in the force, and you can hopefully maximize your advantage.

Arijharn
23-09-2011, 01:28
To change back a bit more to the OP though; if you're open to being a little tricksey, a good tactic is to lure enemy units out of their battle line by using Heralds of Slaanesh with Siren Song in a block of Daemonette's.

A favourite tactic with this is to defend an obstacle and siren song a unit of chariots into your daemonette block, for example as hilarity ensures.

DaemonReign
23-09-2011, 01:37
ps: Daemon Reign, dont take this as a personal attack as it is really just a semi-innocent question but: Do you play anything else besides Daemons?

They certainly arent all conquering monsters, but im sure you can understand why some people who play other armies might see them in a bad light? And not just because of 7th either.

I try to avoid playing my friends' armies as much as possible because I'm 100% about full 'immersion' and fluff.

I want to know as little as possible about what combos etcetera I might be facing.

But aside of the Daemon collection I've mentioned there's also 10k of OnG in our group largely consisting of stuff that me and buddy started collecting back in 4th Ed. So.. I think your insinuation falls kind of flat (which you would agree with if you knew me personally hehe).

And I find whining about these kinds of things to be totally.. well what's the word I can use that's not gonna be inflamatory here? It's just not my cup of tea to make complaints like that.. I guess I could start ranting and raving about my friend's armies and combos they bring (Waltar this, OrganGun that, blah blah blah)

So no, sorry, there were one or two issues with Daemons in 7th that were a little off.. Like 30+ Power Dice per magic phase.. Like autobreaking from Fear (when Daemons don't NEED this added bonus!) ... but the rest is just *fill in suitable inflamatory expression*

No offense taken, by the way. :)

brother_maynard
23-09-2011, 02:26
@ bearded one- i meant the bit about the leadbelchers to be a joke, as you implied that shooty units should be weak in CC, just a paltry attempt to take some of the heat out of the debate :)


Not to mention the 'verges-on-unbreakable'-instability. With leadbelchers I can at least charge them, beat them and be reasonably sure they run away. If I were to charge an ancient stegadon at flamers, they're going to hold him up for at least a turn despite impact hits, hitting on 3's and thunderstomp only if your luck is as atrocious as mine ;) an ancient steg should deal about 5 wounds to the unit, take one back and then the flamers are on insane courage to stay. in this particular scenario, instability is actually a disadvantage as you would get a reform and still get full points for the unit without having to pursue. you should feel comfortable charging a steg into 6 flamers.


I can trounce 2 of the 3 (mostly) khorne daemon players quite happily, only one is giving me trouble from an experienced player;

How'd you deal with a list featuring 3 hordes of 39 bloodletters with +D6" charge banner, 3 khorne heralds (1 BSb with standard of sundering), tzeentch loremaster herald with lore of life and 2x5 flamers?

My normal lizzie army is 28 TG, 24 saurus, scar veteran, lvl2 skink priest 2 units of 1 salamanders, 32 skinks (12 blowpipes, 10 blowpipes, 10 javelins), 20 ranked skinks & 2 kroxigors, 5 chameleons, ancient stegadon if you're being serious and not facetiously calling me out on a dilemma you think i'll have trouble with, send me a pm and i would be glad to offer advice. though it seems to me that you know exactly how to beat him but refuse to drink the kool-aid of a 'hard lizardmen list.' am i right?


...or c) You can effectively use terrain/features to block line of sight from his missile troops and/or war marchines and provide a nice set up attack, considering it's highly unlikely that all of your units will be in melee with all of his by turn 2. Is this going to be the case all the time? Of course not! But you can still hide screamers behind your own units until it's 'time' (so they are at least at a further -2 to hit courtesy of hard cover)
thats a lot of effort to get even some basic productivity from a screamer unit. and cover protects you from BS shooting but not template shooting or magic missiles. and even if you do get your screamers into cover, it means your blocks are going to get all the ranged attention, in which case you're going to go for pha's protective bubble, net of amyntok on the war machines and burning gaze and banishment against his redirectors. its not that your plan wouldn't work, it's that there are much better things to be doing with those power dice than trying to get a basic degree of efficiency out of a deadbeat (albeit insanely cool-looking) unit.

Would flamer/screamers be game changing, no, but if you can knock off even a complete rank then that's going to help you down the track. 'Obliteration' was very much the wrong word to use, but you are going (but not pathetic rolls like your 5 1's or something in your latest battle rep with the flamers shooting the hierotitan ;)) to put a sizeable dent in the force, and you can hopefully maximize your advantage.
but you know what is game-changing? birona's bloodletter blitzkrieg special lol. i see where you're going with this but its an internal balance issue. there really is no way to justify screamers over any other special choice (other than the models). even seekers are better. and yes, that roll was heinous :cries:

AlphariusOmegon20, i'm excited to see your assessment of daemon units. while i disagree with about half of Rosstifer's choices, your condescending attitude and off-hand dismissal of nurgle units convinces me that its not as good as you think it is, but i suppose we'll see.

@ Vomikron Noxis- like i said, any attempt on warseer to receive advice on playing daemons will garner a handful of useful replies but will for the most part devolve into a hideous affair closely resembling a flame war. besides, all the most active and respected daemon players like Daemonreign, Squalie, LAV-Kitsune, GoC, und_ed and others don't post here very often, they're on the daemonic legion as well. come on over and you'll have several pages of unit assessments, tactical articles, efficiency graphs and charts, tacticas for each magic lore, etc., as well as a ton of knowledgeable people who just like you...play daemons

edit:


with the 25 points reroll to wound banner and a herald with the s4 breath weapon so it can reroll to wound. i have a unit of 30 and they are always alive at the end of the game and always earnt there points back.
note that breath weapons do not benefit from any of a model's special rules, magic items, or equipment per the FAQ. thus, no re-rolls to wound on the stream of bile from the standard of seeping decay

Oseru
23-09-2011, 02:48
Lords: All are good, very expensive. Play em in 3k plus. Demon Princes can be ok with ASF Reroll Wounds and Flight, but that is probably their optimal build and still a huge point sink.

Heroes: Great SC's, Hearalds are all great, HoK is least of these as his benefit is least effective. HoT is King.

Core: BL's, PB's, Nettes all very good, better with magical support. Not sold on Horrors as you need to run them in huge expensive units and they NEED magic to be succesful. Furies would have a very high value in any other army as warmachine hunters, but are an average choice for DoC.

Special: Nurglings, not too good. Seekers, about the same as Fiends are better. Tzeentch slashers are good warmachine hunters and receive no Close Combat reprisal but can give up easy points to any kind of bowfire. I have a lot of success with Khorne Dogs, despite the lack of love on here, and recommend them as sustained WS5 S5 is great on something with M8.

Rares: Flamers are the stars here, they are great. Beasts of Nurgle are ok. Crushers are glass cannons and require quite a bit of tactical acumen to use well. Fiends are the favorite warmachine hunters (I've had mixed results running them solo).

DoC probably has the best all comers lists. There are a lot of really competitive builds, and endless good builds.

Do what you want, just have fun.

The bearded one
23-09-2011, 03:21
only if your luck is as atrocious as mine ;) an ancient steg should deal about 5 wounds to the unit, take one back and then the flamers are on insane courage to stay. in this particular scenario, instability is actually a disadvantage as you would get a reform and still get full points for the unit without having to pursue. you should feel comfortable charging a steg into 6 flamers.

A unit of flamers should suffer about 5 wounds (math-hammerwise anyway) and, assuming there is no general or BSB nearby, lose another 5 wounds if they roll an average 7. If the flamers are in a unit of 6 (in my meta they usually are), there will still be a flamer standing. This very day I charged a unit of 5 with my ancient steg, but 2 flamers still stood after the charge, after which a bloodthirster was happy to swoop in (it was a battle royale so the dark elf player nicely 'enfeebling foe'd' the bloodthirster down to strenght 3 though.) and they even were still alive the next round.

Against flamers I seem to be atrociously unlucky as they never go down in a round to anything, ever. There has been a time where a unit of flamers encountered a horde of 40 gw dwarf warriors and stayed put for 2 rounds.

T4, 2 wounds and a wardsave also makes them annoyingly hard to put down by shooting.


if you're being serious and not facetiously calling me out on a dilemma you think i'll have trouble with, send me a pm and i would be glad to offer advice. though it seems to me that you know exactly how to beat him but refuse to drink the kool-aid of a 'hard lizardmen list.' am i right?

I am being serious actually. I could of course try 6 salamanders (and even then I'm not confident I could kill enough, as bloodletters seem to consistently beat close to twice the number of templeguard I put against them.) but apart from that, little springs to mind as bloodletters are fairly immune to the regular killy spells (dwellers, pit of shades, purple sun)

fusionmonkey
23-09-2011, 07:31
note that breath weapons do not benefit from any of a model's special rules, magic items, or equipment per the FAQ. thus, no re-rolls to wound on the stream of bile from the standard of seeping decay.

really i havnt heard about this i just assumed that the banner says all wounds in close combat are rerolled and as you are using the breath weapon in combat. but i just read the FAQ and it is quite clear that i cant, still a S4 breath weapon is nothing to be sneazed at and the unit is still good.

Chacim
23-09-2011, 07:31
I play daemons and 8th being the great equalizer they are NOT OP. They ARE great for fluff that doesnt suck. You can play a 1 god army. You can play a mixed army. You can bring anything and you have the potential for success. Ultimately its you who decides what to bring and for what reasons. If you want to know what works, you'll get tons of different opinions, Ive seen demonettes, plaguebearers and bloodletters do amazing and ive seen them fall flat on their faces. Personally i would argue variety being the spice of life.

flamers are good, I find 1 unit of 6 to be just right, I also find 3 bloodcrushers to be just right. I run a 30 horde block of bloodletters and a 30 block of plaguebearers. In 7th i ran a GUO as my general and (expecially against skaven) had insane fun turning rats into nurglings. This edition I rock a lvl 3 Lord of Change with life. But Ive seen bloodthirsters and keepers of secrets do amazing as well.

i guess you should ask yourself, whats my play style?
Do I want a toe to toe knock down fight? Khorne
Do I want to eat up missile fire and laugh in my oponents face? Nurgle
Do i want to screw up my oponents plan by forcing his units to charge when he's not ready so you can take advantage of ASF and good positioning? Slaanesh
Do I want to have fun with spells? Tzeentch
Do I want to be a jack all trades and mix a little bit of everything into one list?

Brother Maynard has a good grasp of it and I would echo a lot of what he is saying.

brother_maynard
26-09-2011, 01:46
I am being serious actually. I could of course try 6 salamanders (and even then I'm not confident I could kill enough, as bloodletters seem to consistently beat close to twice the number of templeguard I put against them.) but apart from that, little springs to mind as bloodletters are fairly immune to the regular killy spells (dwellers, pit of shades, purple sun)

since this thread has seemingly outlived its intended usefulness, i'd be glad to offer advice here. so to recap, he's using 3 bloodletter hordes with heralds, one bsb with standard of sundering, a life herald with 2 units of 5 flamers? here's some things that immediately jump to my attention about this list-

1. he can only have the +D6" banner on one unit per the daemon FAQ, so don't let him claim it on multiple units.

2. he's using life on his level 2 which is important for 2 reasons. first, i think it is a mediocre lore on a level 2 due to the higher casting values and the need to have ToV up to get any real usefulness out of the lore. second, by using the standard of sundering to lower casting rolls of a given lore, he is at a disadvantage against an opponent who also uses life magic as his caster will be affected as well. if you bring a life slann, his caster will struggle to get anything through because of the banner but your slann should be fine. or, he can choose a different lore to affect, in which case it is pointless to have the banner anyway.

3. he's got 3 hordes. with this kind of frontage, what are you doing to ensure that he can't get all 3 into combat? one of the local LM players frustrates me all the time by getting my hordes to trip each other up, meaning he makes it incredibly diffcult to maneuver them around each other. i'll try to do a batrep against him so you can see how he does it. even if he's a very good player, it is possible to use your superior support units to keep him from moving his hordes properly.

i think your first priority is killing his caster. at your first chance, 6 dice dwellers at him and feed him some cupped hands if he survives. or bring the feedback+banehead combo. once he's gone, your slann will be able to run amok, and not even 3 bloodletter hordes are not going to like a slann doing whatever he wants. consider running your slann in a skirmisher bunker to protect him from flamers and to get some extra mobility, or maybe even a flaming ward on his own. remember to play conservatively! don't give him easy charges, pick up the easier points in his caster and flamers, use your redirectors to keep him out of combat for as long as possible. and once he gets into combat, don't try to get a high kill count. use a narrow frontage (5) and go for HW&S saurus over TG for survivability flesh to stone, regrowth, and earthblood (once his firestorm blade heralds are dead) to draw out the combats and keep him from going anywhere. combat is the last resort against this army (as i'm sure you know).

what do you think thus far? let me know if any of these have been tried and failed. what lore do you use on your slann? i assumed life because this would put him at a disadvantage because of the standard of sundering, but i think shadow or metal would be good as well. how is your opponent's maneuvering ability? what can we do in the movement phase to punish him for taking 3 hordes and only 2 chaff units?