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Turtleking
22-09-2011, 03:07
<-- New O-G player. I have been playing around at 2400 with a Giant 2 pump wagons and 2 mangler squigs and 1 river troll. I know this is not the optimal rare slots, but I wanted to play around with it and see what it does.

The squigs are incredible. The troll sometimes useful and the pump wagons get me back their points most of the time.

But that giant.... man. I don't know if I just use it incorrectly ever time, or it's random attacks.... But it does not seem to work out well for me.

So I was thinking about switching it out for Mr big spider and dropping the troll and 1 pump wagon. I know boardies are mixed on the usefulness of the spider and if it's worth the point cost when so many better options are available to greenskins. But I wanted to ask, flat out one or the other what you would choose?

Djekar
22-09-2011, 05:46
I used a giant almost every game in 7th (the edition where big monsters were pretty good) and received mixed results. I've run an Arachnarok every game in 8th (the edition where big monsters are less good) and have only good things to say about it. Keep it near your general and corner in on an important fight - for great justice!

m1acca1551
22-09-2011, 05:58
Giants have always been very average fighters, there randomized attacks don't do enough to make them worth the points. From what i've heard the spider is a solid performer

ihavetoomuchminis
22-09-2011, 06:15
TO say it in simple words. The giant is the worst monster in all warhammer. The Spider is way better.

Rosstifer
22-09-2011, 06:20
Cygor and Jabberslythe wish to disagree :D

Dungeon_Lawyer
22-09-2011, 06:25
Spider because its fast fast fast. The big base can be a problem aginst opponents with artillary though. The Giant sucks.

Sexiest_hero
22-09-2011, 06:34
The Cygor and Jabber are over priced but good at what they do. The slave giant is the most useless.

Fusarius
22-09-2011, 06:45
neither, they are both not worth the points.

Rosstifer
22-09-2011, 07:08
The Cygor and Jabber are over priced but good at what they do. The slave giant is the most useless.

It's exactly the same as every other Giant?

Lemonbrick
22-09-2011, 07:09
If the giant dose not work for you I would definitely try out the spider,

I have always found giants to be a bit hit and miss myself

maybe proxy one for a few games to see if you like it enough to buy

Lemonbrick

Chacim
22-09-2011, 07:23
Spider is better, the big base is misleading, it is very manuverable and can come from weird places thanks to its obstacle strider. Its a very good infantry killer. It epic fails against pretty much everything else.

Frankly, I wouldnt run either (and i dont). Southpark **** sandwich vs doucebag episode comes to mind.

Whats super frustrating is IMO empire steam tank (just 10pts more) and the Skaven Doomwheel (significantly cheaper) are so so so much better (and TKs big beasty with heroic killing blow is IMO better and cheaper then aracknarok)

Memnos
22-09-2011, 07:39
The Cygor and Jabber are over priced but good at what they do. The slave giant is the most useless.

The Jabber is good at what it does, which is move quickly to threaten areas with a flying monster, but it's overpriced. What the Cygor does is force people to take leadership tests, that are invariably against a 9 or 10 and rerollable, or get a miscast if they fail a spell. The Cygor is also stone thrower that can move and fire, but weaker than the giant in every monster roll imaginable. And more expensive.

I like the Jabber for the huge threat range it opens up on the board, but usually can't afford it after throwing my Ghorgon on the board.

Nickthebear
22-09-2011, 07:59
Just throwing it out there but why not put the 200 points into another 4 river trolls. thats another 12 wounds with regen. i have found that even if the trolls are not the best at fighting sometimes that they are a good points denial for the opponent. but my trolls work well anyway, you just keep them on your generals flank to protect him and his unit as well as using his leadership. your trolls will have 15 regen wounds for someone to get the points for them rather than the giants 6 which are hard to save against at best a 6+ ward

Urgat
22-09-2011, 10:21
The Cygor and Jabber are over priced but good at what they do. The slave giant is the most useless.

The slave giant is a normal giant now.

Turtleking
22-09-2011, 15:52
Just throwing it out there but why not put the 200 points into another 4 river trolls. thats another 12 wounds with regen. i have found that even if the trolls are not the best at fighting sometimes that they are a good points denial for the opponent. but my trolls work well anyway, you just keep them on your generals flank to protect him and his unit as well as using his leadership. your trolls will have 15 regen wounds for someone to get the points for them rather than the giants 6 which are hard to save against at best a 6+ ward

I'm trying to get away from the safe option of just taking more Trolls. I agree you with 100% that this would be a better use of points, I just want to add some variety to the army. :)

Thanks for your thoughts so far guys!

Nickthebear
22-09-2011, 15:59
variety... go stone and river trolls :P some oridnary ones wouldnt hurt i suppose

Yowzo
22-09-2011, 16:15
The spider is too expensive at almost 300 points.

Other than that it's fast, durable and the model is great (in itself, a good enough reason for me to field it).

Oh, and she's got some unkillable gobbos on top that can shoot and jab at things.

Malorian
22-09-2011, 16:24
Spider gets my vote for the extra speed, wounds, and reliability.

Xerkics
22-09-2011, 16:56
Take giant for comic relief value trolls or spider if you want to win

Turtleking
22-09-2011, 18:03
The reliability is really what kills the giant for me.

papabearshane
22-09-2011, 18:16
Im going to say Spider also, "BUT" using a giant to smash apart other big slow monsters is just so much fun I always try to take one now and again when I know my oponent will be fielding mosters of there own. Hydra(1) vs Giant(4) My giants are the bane of Hydras :)

Sexiest_hero
22-09-2011, 18:16
Ah didn't know the slave giant was a regular giant now!

Turtleking
22-09-2011, 22:10
I did not think the numbers would be so heavy towards the spider.

After playing with it proxied instead of the giant I can see why.

popisdead
22-09-2011, 22:46
Large models with armour saves tend to survive shooting/poison longer than those without.

Yowzo
23-09-2011, 11:45
The giant has a few interesting points, one being price, and the other being it's very useful against biggies, like someone said.

Anyone that has seen a giant thump with club a Stank will agree with me.

Still, it's a very niche monster, and very, very vulnerable to shooting, and 20 pts for a 6+ ward save is a joke.

Nickthebear
23-09-2011, 12:28
plus theres other things to take out monsters for the same points or there about that have alot more wounds (units) and more diversity in what they are capable of...giants basically run, attempt to smash things and then theyre gone. anyone ever had a giant last a full 6 turn game? i havnt and never known of it. if you are going to use a giant make sure he gets his points worth before he dies

Yowzo
23-09-2011, 14:35
^^ Only once.

I ran an all-monster unit at 2000 pts

orc warboss on wyvern
gobbo warboss on gigantic spider
night gobbo warboss on giant cave squig on unit of squig hoppers
2xnight gobbo lv2 shamans (on foot) on a big unit of night gobbos
6 trolls
giant
arachnarok

Plus a unit of big'uns to make for the core points.

It was a fun list to run in a casual game against Empire, but the opponent brought a quasi-gunline against which I had little to do with this list.

Glemigobles
23-09-2011, 14:51
none...they both suck big time. And yeah - 20 pts for 6+ ward (and you have to field savage orc shaman!) is a laugh. Giant would be better with mark of slaanesh - ASF giant=decent monster. And a 5+ leather armor :D

CarlostheCraven
23-09-2011, 18:38
Hi

I voted spider myself, but the giant isn't getting a fair shake throughout this discussion.

What a giant can do better is threaten a flank effectively outside of your general's Ld bubble. Having stubborn 10 means that he can operate on his own. The spider cannot do that, or at least the risk of placing a stubborn 6, 290 point model on a flank is a very high risk gamble.

The games in which I have played against the big spider have gone one of two ways. When the spiders operate as flankers, I have been able to get to them, and if I can manage to win or tie (with a musician) they are summarily broken and destroyed. If the spider in inside the inspiring presence/hold your ground bubble, he is a huge pain to deal with.

Cheers,
Nate

Jind_Singh
23-09-2011, 18:49
BOTH! I use both the Giant and the spider in my games and they are AMAZING! Giant is still amazing - I know Malorian won't agree with me - but it's solid! I use it each and every game and it's a winner!

The fact is - yes, it's unpredictable - but that's what makes it so dangerous! No other unit can inflict 2D6 wounds on a steam tank or any other beastie!

Ever seen a Dragon keel over and die from 2D6 wounds as you thump it with a club?

I have!

The spider is also a great unit - as it's solid for killing enemy characters and enemy foot units - especially if the enemy is strength 4 or lower - as they find it hard wounding the Spider.

Both combined form a massive sledge hammer - enemy can try to kill one, killing both is HARD!

So do both!

Daxio
23-09-2011, 20:26
Giant him die everytime, not get points back, bad bad monster: not have spider thingy, but sounds good, will try, mm.

Jind_Singh
23-09-2011, 20:28
Giant on his own = dead Giant
Spider on her own = dead Spider
Giant AND Spider = dead enemy!!!!

Galacticz
23-09-2011, 22:15
Hahaha, I love how Jind is always so enthusiastic.

brynolf
23-09-2011, 23:49
The reliability is really what kills the giant for me.

Really? For me, it has always been arrows.

Oogie boogie boss
24-09-2011, 17:48
I think people are looking at this argument the wrong way. Both the spider and the Giant have their uses, and will suffer if not used correctly. The Giant may not be as durable or as effective against infantry, but it's a lot cheaper, which you've got to remember means that you can have more troops which may swing the balance.
And whether you take a Giant or a Spider, they're going to attract a LOT of firepower and magic, which means more of your boyz and gobbos will get into combat, and they're what'll win the game.
For me, the Spider is probably the more effective monster, but the Giant is much more fun, which is, after all, what the game's about.

Haravikk
25-09-2011, 13:01
Is the spider worth taking with the spider shrine for a shaman?

I think the fact that it can be a mount certainly makes it fairly flexible, the stone thrower attack is pretty rubbish, though I've seen it make back the points by smacking a big unit of chaos knights that were about to charge, but you I don't think you want more than one turn of firing it as the spider is best in combat where it can't be a cannonball or magic magnet.

Giants may not be very cost-effective, but they're brilliant fun to play with and against, so if you play in a lot of friendly games where your opponent isn't going to be cheesy and kill them outright, then they can plough their way around the battlefield in a mass of yelling and balling hilarity, very good complement to an Orcs and Goblins army, particularly if you're a fan of the less reliable units (fanatics, squig hoppers, etc.). The main problem I think with them is that they're just too tall, which makes it impossible to cover from them from ranged fire, and there are no ways to prevent it, other than providing an even easier target though I'm not sure that really counts as a viable tactic.

I think though that the points in the Giant's favour are; high damage potential, random or not this can be a huge deterrent, or force a wary enemy to divert shooting to get rid of the giant early on (which, as mentioned, means more troops make it into combat), he's also highly resistant to leadership tests/breaking, so makes a good tar-pit if you roll badly for his initial attacks. Even more experienced players will be wary of the giant, remembering the one time that it rolled into a unit and utterly destroyed it. For less points, it's also very capable against a range of enemies… sometimes.

Jind_Singh
27-09-2011, 16:07
I don't like the spider shrine, I really don't! I like what it does and all but the fact is that I eat up a HUGE chunk of my lords allowance - which hurts!

And to make it worse:

1) MY big spider HAS to get to close combat in order to survive a game - but with a weak shaman lord on it I'm scared to enter combat as I don't want my level 3/4 dying. Which means dead spider

2) A lot of the spells I want to use have limited range - so it's harder for my shaman to be more effective during the magic phase

3) Any template weapons, including cannons (most stupid rule ever there) hit BOTH the weedy shaman and the Spider, making a two-for-one shot choice for the enemy.

4) Storm of Magic - only time I'd consider throwing the Shaman on a spider with the Shrine as then the entire model is balanced on top of some handy Fulcrum giving them a 3+ ward save

Malorian
27-09-2011, 16:22
3) Any template weapons, including cannons (most stupid rule ever there) hit BOTH the weedy shaman and the Spider, making a two-for-one shot choice for the enemy.

Seconded!


"Ha! I hit your stegadon with a cannon!"
"Ok, now roll to see that part of the model is hit..."
"Nope, as per the rules every part of the model is hit and then you randomize!"
"Ok... so with 5 skinks and the steg that means I'm having to randomize basically 6 cannon shots?"
"Yup!"
"And 2/3 of them go on the steg, meaning after 4 cannon balls he's sure to be dead, and then the skinks die automatically?"
"Yup!"
"*beep*ing stupid rule..."

Turtleking
30-09-2011, 01:54
After testing out the spider I see why 80% of you guys said to run it over the giant. Thanks for the input everyone!

minigobbo
01-05-2013, 15:16
Any thought's on how well the Spider faces off against Lord/ Hero characters with the venom shot? Seems unreliable....

liddan
01-05-2013, 16:54
Spider all the way! Better ingame, cooler model, scarier for opponents

Feiqwan
02-05-2013, 07:54
For fun the giant. For more positive results the Spider.

Trustey
02-05-2013, 08:36
One upside to the giant is that those extra 90 points go a long way... BUT, there is enough unpredictable mayhem going on already in O&G your Rare choices should behave better than a bunch of snotlings. So I vote Arachnarok.

Greatwhitenorth
07-05-2013, 04:46
Spider 100% venom surge, 8 wounds and remember obstacle strider + large target means the spider can seriously come out of the "woodwork" onto some enemy units.

Tuttivillus
07-05-2013, 15:31
Giant spider! ;)

bigbiggles
08-05-2013, 02:35
Giants are pretty good vs other monsters. The spider might be good at tanking infantry blocks, and it looks cooler too

Fighting Newfoundlander
08-05-2013, 20:48
I haven't played with the Spider, but my Giant has long been one of my favorite models and most hated units. Looks cool, but dies WAY too easy. It'll last about as long as 10 Orcs against bow fire. It often kills next to nothing, especially if your opponent doesn't bring any giant monsters. If you want to bring a smile to the face of every elf and crossbow man you encounter, I think the Giant is perfect for the job :)

excessiveswagger
09-05-2013, 01:01
My vote goes for giant personally. His potential for carnage is enormous and this will make people very wary of him. He is better than spidey against monsters and also against infantry if he charges with another unit to minimise attacks. Better leadership is nice as our ld bubble is at a premium. Spidey is pretty good against monstrous stuff if they have bad armour.

Spidey is good for tying up blocks with its high toughness as it slowly stomps then to death but personally I find night goblins better for that purpose and they don't come from our rare allowance. In the end greenskins don't have much trouble against low str low t units so thrre are better things to use than Spidey. Trouble comes from high t greeblies and our bad leadership which makes giants good :)

Treg Almighty
09-05-2013, 08:30
Nothing better than my durpy giant who can only yell and ball and do damage when he falls over.

Sounds a bit like a football player now that I think about it

Oogie boogie boss
09-05-2013, 09:40
A friend's two giants effectively beat a 3,500pt WoC army single handed the other day, due to terror and yell and bawl. Just shows what these much-maligned fellas can do.

excessiveswagger
09-05-2013, 11:07
I'll never forget the time my giant stuffed an unkillable chaos lord down his pants