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View Full Version : How my veil of hatred for 8th was lifted (long)



J.P. Biff
22-09-2011, 03:20
Quite recently I've had a bit of a mind altering realisation so to speak about Warhammer Fantasy 8th ediiton. Before you scream "Oh no not another 8th thread!" This is a positive revelation, not negative whining (just incase you missed the title :D). First off I'd like to say that composing article/essays etc is not my strong point, so I apologise in advance if this post comes off as a bit chaotic and not well presented at times.

To me there are two main groups of gamers when it comes to actually physically and mentally playing a wargame (rather than talking about it). Gamers who play for fun (be it visual appeal, events during a game, imagery, all the above etc etc) and gamers who play to win (love the strategic elements, flanking, baiting, redirecting, power listing etc). I realize people who play for fun enjoy winning as well, but I'm mainly talking about the win at all costs camp, where fun IS winning and losing is just frustrating/angering. These two categores sum up the majoirty of wargamers IMO. I used to fall into the former category (for fun) when I first started out. Campaigns, late night drunken Warhammer with friends, where hilarity and idiocy ran rampant. But as my gaming career progressed and I got better I found myself playing for the win more than for fun (or the booze... and sadly the idiocy). I knew the rules inside and out, won a few best general awards, got older and longer in the tooth and slowly began focusing on not losing to anyone first and foremost. Especially those some refer to as "scrubs." I slowly stopped playing the majority of the vets who were good and eventually played less and less as my opponents weren't much of a challenge and the worry of losing to a "scrub" became strong. The urge to win at all costs and not to lose to ANYONE began to ruin my hobby. I always maintained the mindset that I wanted my opponent to still have fun even though I was trouncing him, but eventually even that -sadly- started to fade. It was at that point my gaming career started coming to an end.

When 8th came out and when I saw that GW had changed the rules to make it a more random and FUN game, the WIN type player I had become, was flabbergasted and I felt angry that this edition narrowed the gap between scrub and veteran. That put the proverbial "nail in the coffin" so to speak. Prices went up (or had JUST gone up) and all I had was red in my eyes when thinking of GW. How dare they treat a gamer of 15+ years like nothing and focus solely on the "new gamer", how dare they dumb down the strategy of this game that I'd played for so long over multiple editions, how dare they... how dare they... And that was the end of my gaming career for a while.

But things changed after a year of hatred and anger towards Fantasy 8th and GW. I can say that I'm playing 8th and enjoying it just like when I started, and this is "how my veil was lifted"

A few months ago I realised I hadn't seen a few of my close gaming friends in quite a while (another negative side affect of anger towards GW and fantasy) and went down to the local shop for a visit. After talking to some buddies about their past years worth of 8th ed one friend, who was alot like me before I quit, explained it to me like this "I eventually had to completely rethink the way I approached this game. I couldn't think of it as Warhammer Fantasy. I had to think of it as something completely new that I'd never played before." Sounds dumb right? Silly? Simple? Well maybe to some, but to me it was exactly what I needed to hear. A light switch was turned on and after our conversation ended I began thinking about it that night before bed. I finally caved a day later and was convinced to at least play a few games with my old gaming friends.

Well, suffice it to say after the few games I played I was like a kid again. I played for fun. I had a blast. And for once winning didn't matter. Which was a good thing cause I got my a$$ handed to me in the first game :p. So here I am two months later playing a game I simply call "8th" and I've found myself playing like I was 15 some odd years ago. It may seem silly that it took approaching the game like it was something I hadn't ever played before and thinking of it as something "not Warhammer Fantasy" to try it again, but thats the way my crazy brain works I guess. There are plenty of people who "hate" 8th, but whenever I hear that now I can understand where most are coming from. If you're a win type gamer 8th does suck more than 7th as alot of the points that separated "vets" from "scrubs" are gone. There are silly issues/rules/spells or whatever people want to complain about. But complaining about it changes nothing. The game is what it is. Perhaps approaching it with a new mentality might help. If you can find that one thing that switches your brain from WAAC to FUN or "this is stupid" to "this is the way it is" you may just find yourself enjoying 8th. And: "When in doubt. House Rule it out." Besides, if you still refuse to play or find you still don't enjoy it there are plenty of more in depth, strategic games out there if you can't get past your ire. Just explore the net and you'll find something you like.

In closing, I don't want anyone to think I forgave GW. I still dislike GW for their pricing increases and the garbage way they handle their veteran players. Thats just inexcusable. But you know what I've realised?? I don't play games for GW. I play games for myself and to have fun with my friends. Getting angry at them changes nothing. Having fun with my friends with models I've assembled and painted myself over years and years changes many things. It makes me a happier person and a better friend.

If you got this far. Thanks for reading. I hope this helps someone. Or at least makes you think. Please avoid negative comments. This is just my thoughts put into a post to hopefully get people in a similar situation as I was to maybe take a look at the wargamer they were... and still are.

IcedCrow
22-09-2011, 03:26
A lot of what you say is similar to where I was. I started off the hobby for the same reasons... for fun.

As the years rolled on I became a hardcore tournament player. And it sucked the life out of me. My warhammer life was about winning, and when not winning it was about preparing to win. It was about finding loop holes, it was about mastering the art of lawyering rules, it was about min/maxing army lists and only taking that which would give me an easy win.

And it burnt me out not once but twice. The last time I took a three year vacation from warhammer and it was only last winter that I picked it all up again for campaigns and for fun.

Where I see a lot of the hatered of 8th coming from is similar to where you see it. The more random nature of the game means that a scrub technically *can* beat a vet (though I have seen close games I have not seen this happen yet), and it's that probability even existing that makes a lot of the "vets" steer clear and label the game as inferior.

I think the biggest harbringer of all this is the tournaments. It's kind of like a drug.

Anyhow ... thanks for the thread and the read.

the gribbly
22-09-2011, 03:29
Nice post and thanks for sharing brother.

MrCarbohydrate
22-09-2011, 03:44
I liked the post. I didn't even really play in 7th edition, between moving a bit and not knowing anyone out here. Then met a few folks, played at some folks' houses, remembered it can be fun.

The competitiveness of even open play store nights is annoying.

Doommasters
22-09-2011, 04:16
Lest hope the trend of 8th edition books continues. I think we can all learn from or relate to the OP in some.

Cheers

Jind_Singh
22-09-2011, 04:27
It's funny - I can draw a lot of parallels in my own gaming life...

Started back in 3rd ed (I think, when High Elves & Goblins with cardboard lords came in Warhammer's 1st ever 'Boxed set') and it was pretty much for fun.

Then as the months rolled into years I became better and better and at the game and started looking for tougher nuts than mine to crack.

After I had exhausted that chestnut I turned inwards and started collecting crappy armies to allow myself to rise to the challenge by using an army with a disadvantage (played Orcs & Goblins!).

Then I took a long 7 year break (around the time Warmaster was brought out) and didn't return until 7trh ed....when Daemons of Chaos had just come out a few months back...

Since I had the rag-tag models of a Daemon army it was a simple matter to get a 10 strong box of Bloodletters (to make my 3 core choices) and got back in the hobby - but funny enough the game evolved the same for me in 7th...played for fun, collected a massive 10,000 point Daemon army, then started taking weaker and weaker builds until I jumped over to Ogres/Orcs & Goblins to satisfy my generalship skills.

When 8th ed came out our entire gaming group had become VERY jaded with 7th ed - it was on the verge of dying out all together. So when 8th came out we all jumped in with both feet and all had a great time...

For like 5 weeks....

After which most of use cried foul and either moved to 40k or jumped ship to Privateer Press (I went to 40k). The game had changed too much for us, it was no longer Warhammer for us, and we hated it.

But you ever noticed that when you hate something ANYTHING about it becomes more intense? So instead of disliking how terrain worked it was a sudden outpouring of hate and anger towards 'dumb rules'!!

So a long (I think 3-4 months) break came about were I became all things 40k - and even though I had fun and it gave me an excuse to finish collecting my Ultramarines Space Marine chapter (cliche yes!) I drifted away from all things Old World. Until one day a newbie player (who is a good pal of mine who plays 40k) asked if I could play a demo game with so he could try out his new Warhammer Skaven army out - so I threw together 1500 points of painted Greenskins and went to the GW.

And boy what a game!!!

Being away from the game had allowed me to distance myself from my earlier emotions about the game and I discovered, in all it's glory, the joys and spender of playing 8th ed Warhammer!

I came to the realization that (like the OP) 8th ed was a completely new way of playing my old game - it retained enough characteristics of the Warhammer I knew to keep my grounded in the Warhammer world I had come to love but at the same time I could appreciate the game for what it was!

Now I am having the time of my (gaming) life! 8th ed is single handed one of the best eds for me, sure it's still got things I find stupid:-

1) How come Cannon balls can sail right through a forest without any chance of getting stuck in a tree?
2) How come Troopers don't take dangerous terrain tests for marching/charging in woods?
3) How come flanking an enemy unit or rear charging it doesn't add a -1 to their leadership test (if stubborn via steadfast) to represent the confusion of hearing their general while flanked?
4) How come there is isn't a penalty for rolling on the miscast table if you use more dice than your magic level (So if a level 2 uses 6 dice and miscasts he should -4 to the miscast table result to represent a lower level unleashing power his mind isn't trained for).

But other than small things like that the game is a marvel!

And then came the 8th ed army books and Storm of magic - icing on an already sexy and sweet cake!

And I'm not alone! Recently there was a local tournament for Warhammer, ran by a local gamer, and there were over 20 players - most of whom had left 8th and had 'rediscovered' the joys of gaming in 8th!

It's a really class game - as even with a great army you can be held off and even beaten by lower class armies. The gap between great players and newbies has closed, the plain and outright manipulation of movement rules (I'm keeping my unit exactly 1/2" away from your maximum charge distance of 8th while march blocking you, and redirecting your units with my cheap scouts/fast cavalry) have bit the dust.

Is 8th ed the perfect edition? Far from it!

Is it massive step towards were it needs to be? Damn tooting straight it is!

But it's good to see that others have had a similar ride themselves - I really feel sorry for those die hard 7th ed fans who left the hobby and never came back to give it a second chance as I think they missed out.

There's one ex-player for e.g. who was one of the reasons why 7th ed was dying for me - played a few games of 8th, packed in his army, put them away for Warhmachines/Hordes and now harps on about how 8th is 'crappy this, broken that' and it gives me joy to tell him to shut up - he doesn't know what he's talking about!

So don't listen to others - give yourself a chance to see what 8th is all about and make your own conclusions. It's a whole new ball game (well balls in the guise of 6 sided dice!)!

virre
22-09-2011, 05:14
Wonderful thread and even though I didn't go through the same things as you did (got bored on 7th a year before 8th) it's nice to read your tale. If for nothing but understanding a veteran player's frustration.

Thanks for sharing
/Virre

Sexiest_hero
22-09-2011, 07:02
Losing is just frustrating/angering.

Please don't let something as liitle as losing a game of plastic men. do this to you. There is a whole world of baddness for those emotions.

Take a tip from an old dog, never get angry over games or women, and you'll be a happy man for life. Be competitive in a balanced team sport, game for fun!

EnternalVoid
22-09-2011, 07:49
I guess I am a bit of both sides though leaning towards the tactical side. Yes to me that is fun. And yes it can burn out, it has happened a bit here and there, but I find that I don't get angry or frustrated so much in games, I get ponderous. Each new twist is another angle, either a new hurdle to overcome or step completed. Mind you if I get outplayed, I have no problem with this, though I will admit it happens rarely. Likely the reason I don't get to frustrated is more because of the adknowledgement that it is a game of dice.

I think perhaps the issue more than anything is just being burned out in general with a game. I have seen if often enough watching groups over the years, Rp groups suffer from this often too. Our game master per say that runs our group likes switching things up every 3 months or so. From Skirmish, small armies, bigger armies, map campaigns, mordheim, and even the occational Necromunda to keep things fresh. Also that way it is not the same old people using the same old armies beating the same old people down. This has often reduced the number of burn outs in our group, so the span people tend to vanish is only 3-6 months, maybe a year at the most.

WarmbloodedLizard
22-09-2011, 07:58
I was always a mix of playing for fun and playing to win. I can live with 8th, and I still have fun as one side of me sees how 8th is still worth playing, but my other half is annoyed at all the big and small bad rules that came with 8th.

J.P. Biff
22-09-2011, 19:26
Thanks for the feedback everyone. And I'm glad to see there are others who've walked in my shoes. Its a shame I didn't give it a chance from the beginning really. But I think the year off helped just as much as taking a look at 8th from a different angle.

Ozorik
22-09-2011, 19:33
I am very much a fun gamer (after all I had a well used 2000 point nightgoblin horde in 7th, lead by a generic LD 7 warboss) yet I hate 8th with a passion.

Simply put 8th took away a lot of what I enjoyed about fantasy and replaced it with vast quantities of dice rolling. The game is no longer fun for me and each release seems to move fantasy further and further away from the game that I used to play.

Its very simplistic to state that 8th caters to 'fun' gamers. Its also worth noting that balance has nothing to do with the core ruleset of any game. All those cheesy tactics and broken builds of 7th had little to do with the rules and everything to do with army creep and shoddy playtesting. Something that 8th is almost certain to experience in its turn.

unheilig
22-09-2011, 19:49
I had a similiar epiphany to the OP, but for me it was Storm of Magic that brought the game and its nature into sharp focus for me, and helped me to re-appreciate it.

Lord Inquisitor
22-09-2011, 19:54
Funnily enough as a competitive player I think once I got over some elements of 8th it lends itself very well to competitive play. The new army books are much better balanced within and between books. Limited magic items, better written rules with less exceptions. Few overpowered characters. The older books are also at least better balanced than in 7th between books (even if internal balance is a bit wonky in many pre-8th books). FAQs are regular, errata is prompt and extensive and actually fix the issues with the rules.

The competitive crowd has learned to deal with random charges and wackyhammer terrain.

Not that 8th isn't eminently suitable for fun games. Just saying that it works for competitive games just fine really.

WarmbloodedLizard
22-09-2011, 20:20
I had a similiar epiphany to the OP, but for me it was Storm of Magic that brought the game and its nature into sharp focus for me, and helped me to re-appreciate it.

while I can see the many positive sides of 8th, I can see none in SoM. It's not for me and I'm glad there is barely anyone playing it around here.

fusionmonkey
22-09-2011, 20:29
same i played 7th rage quite for a few months then got the feeling again to play and low and behold many of my freinds had got the itch too.

on another note im suprised there have been no haters on this thread yet

Struggle Within
22-09-2011, 20:37
Long time lurker here... I had a similar experience to the OP but with 5th. Having loved 3rd and 4th I just found 5th really dull. I got back into the hobby just as 8th came out and I have to say I'm really enjoying it again

The Low King
22-09-2011, 21:31
Personally i started in 6th edition, quit in 7th because i found it boring, tried a game of 8th when it first came out and decided i liked it as soon as my dwarfs first got to strike back...




while I can see the many positive sides of 8th, I can see none in SoM. It's not for me and I'm glad there is barely anyone playing it around here.

SoM is all about randomness, teleporting fulcrums, hilarious miscast table and lots of dice.....

The bearded one
22-09-2011, 21:39
I loved 8th from the start. I like to have large blocks of infantry strolling over the table and clashing in meatgrinder combat, instead of units of cavalry charging and running over infantry. 8th for me was a dream come true. It even made dwarf combat very competitive as a nice bonus!

I like storm of magic too. Played a game of storm of magic last week too and it was wonderfully wacky :D How wonderful were the 2 chair dances with fulcrums! Made even funnier by the fact that the fulcrum I was attacking with a griffon suddenly had my own wizard on it, while my own fulcrum that was attacked by a HPA had an enemy wizard on it :)

Thalenchar
22-09-2011, 21:46
Great read. Thanks for sharing :)

WarmbloodedLizard
22-09-2011, 21:49
SoM is all about randomness, teleporting fulcrums, hilarious miscast table and lots of dice.....

exactly: a waste of time. probably almost as high up on the waste-of-time-scale as watching TV, so I do neither. :)

The Low King
22-09-2011, 21:51
exactly: a waste of time. probably almost as high up on the waste-of-time-scale as watching TV, so I do neither. :)

randomness= a waste of time? you should point that out to a few people in a casino.....

minionboy
22-09-2011, 21:57
Welcome to 8th Ed! It's a fun game, now after you play it for a while, you may soon discover some of the finer points of the new strategy which separate it from 7th, such as no guarantees and cost/benefit analysis. I wont bother selling you on what new strategies the 8th ed rules presented, you'll find them on your own. Enjoy the game!


Now I am having the time of my (gaming) life! 8th ed is single handed one of the best eds for me, sure it's still got things I find stupid:-

1) How come Cannon balls can sail right through a forest without any chance of getting stuck in a tree?
2) How come Troopers don't take dangerous terrain tests for marching/charging in woods?
3) How come flanking an enemy unit or rear charging it doesn't add a -1 to their leadership test (if stubborn via steadfast) to represent the confusion of hearing their general while flanked?
4) How come there is isn't a penalty for rolling on the miscast table if you use more dice than your magic level (So if a level 2 uses 6 dice and miscasts he should -4 to the miscast table result to represent a lower level unleashing power his mind isn't trained for).

I saw this and thought I'd tackle it.

1) Have you seen a forest? Have you seen the Citadel Woods? In real life, trees are not so dense that you can't see through them when there is only a cluster 30' across, just take a look at the Citadel Woods to get an idea, tree's don't tend to grown on top of each other. Maybe if they're all junipers planted specifically to create a wall for privacy, but in general, you can see through many feet of woods with little problem.
2) Running on foot full speed through some loosely packed trees isn't that dangerous. Galloping on a horse full speed in between trees is a bit more challenging.
3&4) Because there isn't. Probably the same reason guys with black powder weapons don't get -1 to be shot at through the massive cloud of smoke they produce. There shouldn't be a rule for every little thing you can think up some times. :)

The bearded one
22-09-2011, 22:17
5) How come dwarfs don't get hatred vs skaven and elves?

Andy p
22-09-2011, 22:37
^Actually that one is a good one :D.

hobbs3023
22-09-2011, 22:39
Killed by wall of text (failed ward save)





Quite recently I've had a bit of a mind altering realisation so to speak about Warhammer Fantasy 8th ediiton. Before you scream "Oh no not another 8th thread!" This is a positive revelation, not negative whining (just incase you missed the title :D). First off I'd like to say that composing article/essays etc is not my strong point, so I apologise in advance if this post comes off as a bit chaotic and not well presented at times.

To me there are two main groups of gamers when it comes to actually physically and mentally playing a wargame (rather than talking about it). Gamers who play for fun (be it visual appeal, events during a game, imagery, all the above etc etc) and gamers who play to win (love the strategic elements, flanking, baiting, redirecting, power listing etc). I realize people who play for fun enjoy winning as well, but I'm mainly talking about the win at all costs camp, where fun IS winning and losing is just frustrating/angering. These two categores sum up the majoirty of wargamers IMO. I used to fall into the former category (for fun) when I first started out. Campaigns, late night drunken Warhammer with friends, where hilarity and idiocy ran rampant. But as my gaming career progressed and I got better I found myself playing for the win more than for fun (or the booze... and sadly the idiocy). I knew the rules inside and out, won a few best general awards, got older and longer in the tooth and slowly began focusing on not losing to anyone first and foremost. Especially those some refer to as "scrubs." I slowly stopped playing the majority of the vets who were good and eventually played less and less as my opponents weren't much of a challenge and the worry of losing to a "scrub" became strong. The urge to win at all costs and not to lose to ANYONE began to ruin my hobby. I always maintained the mindset that I wanted my opponent to still have fun even though I was trouncing him, but eventually even that -sadly- started to fade. It was at that point my gaming career started coming to an end.

When 8th came out and when I saw that GW had changed the rules to make it a more random and FUN game, the WIN type player I had become, was flabbergasted and I felt angry that this edition narrowed the gap between scrub and veteran. That put the proverbial "nail in the coffin" so to speak. Prices went up (or had JUST gone up) and all I had was red in my eyes when thinking of GW. How dare they treat a gamer of 15+ years like nothing and focus solely on the "new gamer", how dare they dumb down the strategy of this game that I'd played for so long over multiple editions, how dare they... how dare they... And that was the end of my gaming career for a while.

But things changed after a year of hatred and anger towards Fantasy 8th and GW. I can say that I'm playing 8th and enjoying it just like when I started, and this is "how my veil was lifted"

A few months ago I realised I hadn't seen a few of my close gaming friends in quite a while (another negative side affect of anger towards GW and fantasy) and went down to the local shop for a visit. After talking to some buddies about their past years worth of 8th ed one friend, who was alot like me before I quit, explained it to me like this "I eventually had to completely rethink the way I approached this game. I couldn't think of it as Warhammer Fantasy. I had to think of it as something completely new that I'd never played before." Sounds dumb right? Silly? Simple? Well maybe to some, but to me it was exactly what I needed to hear. A light switch was turned on and after our conversation ended I began thinking about it that night before bed. I finally caved a day later and was convinced to at least play a few games with my old gaming friends.

Well, suffice it to say after the few games I played I was like a kid again. I played for fun. I had a blast. And for once winning didn't matter. Which was a good thing cause I got my a$$ handed to me in the first game :p. So here I am two months later playing a game I simply call "8th" and I've found myself playing like I was 15 some odd years ago. It may seem silly that it took approaching the game like it was something I hadn't ever played before and thinking of it as something "not Warhammer Fantasy" to try it again, but thats the way my crazy brain works I guess. There are plenty of people who "hate" 8th, but whenever I hear that now I can understand where most are coming from. If you're a win type gamer 8th does suck more than 7th as alot of the points that separated "vets" from "scrubs" are gone. There are silly issues/rules/spells or whatever people want to complain about. But complaining about it changes nothing. The game is what it is. Perhaps approaching it with a new mentality might help. If you can find that one thing that switches your brain from WAAC to FUN or "this is stupid" to "this is the way it is" you may just find yourself enjoying 8th. And: "When in doubt. House Rule it out." Besides, if you still refuse to play or find you still don't enjoy it there are plenty of more in depth, strategic games out there if you can't get past your ire. Just explore the net and you'll find something you like.

In closing, I don't want anyone to think I forgave GW. I still dislike GW for their pricing increases and the garbage way they handle their veteran players. Thats just inexcusable. But you know what I've realised?? I don't play games for GW. I play games for myself and to have fun with my friends. Getting angry at them changes nothing. Having fun with my friends with models I've assembled and painted myself over years and years changes many things. It makes me a happier person and a better friend.

If you got this far. Thanks for reading. I hope this helps someone. Or at least makes you think. Please avoid negative comments. This is just my thoughts put into a post to hopefully get people in a similar situation as I was to maybe take a look at the wargamer they were... and still are.

Nubl0
22-09-2011, 22:41
Dwarfs dont hate skaven because that would mean admitting that the skaven have caused enough grievous damage and are not just a nuisance. DWARF PRIDE!

sulla
22-09-2011, 23:46
I had a similiar epiphany to the OP, but for me it was Storm of Magic that brought the game and its nature into sharp focus for me, and helped me to re-appreciate it. I've been really enjoying storm of magic. Haven't had a game where the result wasn't in question till the last turn, I think.

IcedCrow
23-09-2011, 01:18
Storm of Magic is win on many levels.

Lord Inquisitor
23-09-2011, 01:48
Storm of magic can be quite tactical. Not in a historical tactics sort of way but as a game there's a lot of nuance to it. Very chess-like in a suprising sort of way once you get passed all the items and spells and soforth.

It's just a very different game to vanilla warhammer and if you approach it in the same way it won't seem very deep.

The bearded one
23-09-2011, 02:32
Plus things like killing 18 clanrats in a fireball barrage just for the heck of it, because you couldn't see any fulcrums anymore because of a magical mist that limits your vision to 8" is just so randomly funny.

Feefait
23-09-2011, 02:40
Thanks for the post, and i agree with some of what you said. But tell me - what exactly does GW owe us vets? Discounted prices? Different rules? Extra points? If nothing else the game finally seems fun again, and it seems to be under the direction of true fans. Yes, they are trying to raise the profits to new levels, but well what else are they supposed to do?

I was getting pretty competitive by the end of 7th as well, and though i've never been a tournament player (in fantasy) I took it way to seriously. 8th really is a lot of fun. I take exception to thinking "it's not warhammer" but, hey if thats what it takes then good for you guys. :)

J.P. Biff
23-09-2011, 05:04
But tell me - what exactly does GW owe us vets? Discounted prices? Different rules? Extra points?

Its not so much that they OWE us anything as they should support people who've stuck with the hobby for longer than a month. Vets is the wrong term I suppose. I remember rewards cards for buying/painting and playing with miniatures you purchased. People who stuck with it got an added bonus in gift certificates or blister packs. Also the fact that GW now in regards to support for its fan base has dwindled in the past few years. Things like worldwide campaigns (successful of not, they were still fun) such as Ichar V (or was it IV? haha) Isle of Albion etc. were great. To me when staff got players hyped up and excited it usually ended in a lot of money being spent. The more energetic the staffer, the more energetic the gamer. Now it seems that most staff could really care less about what they sell. It's become a job more than a love/hobby. But I can only comment about my area not anyone elses. And this is subjective.

White Dwarfs were full of articles that didn't involve new releases front to back repeated over and over. Tale of four gamers, campaign plots/ideas, detailed battle reports (maybe these are back. Haven't picked up a WD in a year) and articles like them were common month to month. It just seems like now all WD is, is "Here are the new terminators. (advert, advert) Here are the sprues of said Terminators. (advert, advert) Heres how to paint a Terminator. (advert, advert) Heres some tactics for Terminators. (advert, advert) Heres how Terminators... oh crap thats all we have room for." :p

But like I said. I play games for me. Not GW. We hype ourselves up about gaming. We make our hobby fun. All the problems I have with GW I simply have to ignore. I realise now that getting mad solves nothing. It is what it is. I can go to other suppliers, I can choose to create my own campaigns and run my own leagues. I make my gaming career. Not GW.

zoggin-eck
23-09-2011, 05:43
Cool stories guys. I'm much the same, getting back into it with 8th, but I never had the "tornament phase" as I really don't get it at all.

This version of the game just seems to fit the whole point of the game in the first place. That is, round up your fave miniatures, find or write a cool scenario and add some nice terrain and just play the game. It's hard to describe, but that's thevibe I got from it, both reading the rule book itself and playing the game. Obviously, you can't please everyone, but it just seems to fit in with GW's (or at least the writers, particularly Jervis) usual attitude of it being a game to play for the game, rather than "winning".

Who knows though? Ten years time it may evolve into a tight rule set for tournaments, or change again!

lybban
23-09-2011, 09:10
Its not so much that they OWE us anything as they should support people who've stuck with the hobby for longer than a month. Vets is the wrong term I suppose. I remember rewards cards for buying/painting and playing with miniatures you purchased. People who stuck with it got an added bonus in gift certificates or blister packs. Also the fact that GW now in regards to support for its fan base has dwindled in the past few years. Things like worldwide campaigns (successful of not, they were still fun) such as Ichar V (or was it IV? haha) Isle of Albion etc. were great. To me when staff got players hyped up and excited it usually ended in a lot of money being spent. The more energetic the staffer, the more energetic the gamer. Now it seems that most staff could really care less about what they sell. It's become a job more than a love/hobby. But I can only comment about my area not anyone elses. And this is subjective.

White Dwarfs were full of articles that didn't involve new releases front to back repeated over and over. Tale of four gamers, campaign plots/ideas, detailed battle reports (maybe these are back. Haven't picked up a WD in a year) and articles like them were common month to month. It just seems like now all WD is, is "Here are the new terminators. (advert, advert) Here are the sprues of said Terminators. (advert, advert) Heres how to paint a Terminator. (advert, advert) Heres some tactics for Terminators. (advert, advert) Heres how Terminators... oh crap thats all we have room for." :p

But like I said. I play games for me. Not GW. We hype ourselves up about gaming. We make our hobby fun. All the problems I have with GW I simply have to ignore. I realise now that getting mad solves nothing. It is what it is. I can go to other suppliers, I can choose to create my own campaigns and run my own leagues. I make my gaming career. Not GW.

I remember whan white dwarf had articles about how to make your own terrain and how to make cool conversions. Even how to make a titan from old star wars toys. Man i miss those days of not so blatant "sell sell sell" attitude. Too bad all companies must grow to infinity or be considered a failure. I have bought every white dwarf since no 90. Im gonna look up the old issues and travel in time someday!

Toshiro
23-09-2011, 12:27
I love 8th as well, only thing I'd really want changed are the BRB big spells, but aside from those I think GW has done a great job this time :D

Aluinn
23-09-2011, 12:49
I appreciate the story and I don't mean to be a jerk but ... how is it that you came to decide 8th was less tactical, or that it inadequately "separated" veteran and "scrub" players (and there are a whole bunch of issues with such statements that I won't even get into yet) without even playing it much (f any) at all?

I think you will find that your 8th Ed. experience will continue to be similar to your original experience in starting Fantasy: You will get better, and, if you have the same inclinations now as then, you will again become more competitive, because it can indeed be a competitive game that rewards skill. It's just that it rewards somewhat different skills (e.g. your ability to guess ranges is irrelevant, but your ability to evaluate probabilities and risks-versus-rewards is more important).

If you don't want to go down that road again, then you'll have to make a conscious effort to avoid it--although it is, I should say, quite possible to be a competitive gamer but not be afraid to lose, strut around sneering at the "scrubs", etc.--because though 8th Ed. can be a beer-and-pretzels game, it is not inherently so. I would hazard to guess that the reason it seems that way to you now is that you're new to it, just as X-Ed. Fantasy seemed that way when you first started it however many years ago.

TL;DR: 7th wasn't your problem and 8th is not your solution, although, IMO, 8th is a good set of rules and all. If you want to approach wargaming differently, you need to cultivate a different mindset rather than expect external forces to make any great deal of difference. My advice is to think about attaching self-worth (or evaluations of the worth of others, e.g. looking down on "scrubs") to one's win-loss record, and how that's a very silly thing to do. (It sounds like you probably realized that already, but just to be sure, I'll mention it.)

scarletsquig
23-09-2011, 15:02
If you want a tactical fantasy game play Kings of War, you can use your GW models for it, no problem.

If you want wacky beer n' pretzels, bucket o' dice fun, play 8th edition.

There are too many different options and games out there to get hung up about a particular set of rules not giving what you want from a game.

minionboy
23-09-2011, 16:17
If you want a tactical fantasy game play Kings of War, you can use your GW models for it, no problem.

If you want wacky beer n' pretzels, bucket o' dice fun, play 8th edition.

There are too many different options and games out there to get hung up about a particular set of rules not giving what you want from a game.

I think if you play any game where dice are involved, you aren't playing a game only because you want to exercise your tactical prowess. Not saying that WHFB/Mantic/Warmahordes aren't tactical, just that we play games with dice because we like random crap happening.

If you want a 100% tactics only game, go play some Go or Chess. :)

Aluinn
23-09-2011, 16:23
I think if you play any game where dice are involved, you aren't playing a game only because you want to exercise your tactical prowess. Not saying that WHFB/Mantic/Warmahordes aren't tactical, just that we play games with dice because we like random crap happening.

If you want a 100% tactics only game, go play some Go or Chess. :)

But the balance in Chess is awful. White is totally OP.

RanaldLoec
23-09-2011, 18:14
exactly: a waste of time. probably almost as high up on the waste-of-time-scale as watching TV, so I do neither. :)

Your opinion.

My opinion, storm of magic is lots of fun.

Fun is a subjective concept which differs from person to person.

Okuto
23-09-2011, 19:43
This was a very nice read sir, I felt the same way when I came back and while I try to play for fun, my local meta just seems to enjoy taking the fun out lol. All the vets in my area have moved on to smaller skirmish based games

You are lucky to have a close group who play for fun.

On the subject of SoM: it's really not for me, never used magic heavily never will, don't like setting up only to take them off first turn personally

DaemonReign
23-09-2011, 20:21
Cool opening post! Nice to read something 'positive' for a change. Interesting seeing someone being honest about it.. I've always concidered the whole "competative mindset" to be detrimental to Warhammer.

8th Ed is great! Miles and miles better than 7th. Being in my 30's of course I get a bit conservative concerning certain 'new models' and other twists, and maybe one or two core-rules could have been thought-through one more time.. but what hell.. The game has never been better.

Feefait
23-09-2011, 21:31
Its not so much that they OWE us anything as they should support people who've stuck with the hobby for longer than a month. Vets is the wrong term I suppose. I remember rewards cards for buying/painting and playing with miniatures you purchased. People who stuck with it got an added bonus in gift certificates or blister packs. Also the fact that GW now in regards to support for its fan base has dwindled in the past few years. Things like worldwide campaigns (successful of not, they were still fun) such as Ichar V (or was it IV? haha) Isle of Albion etc. were great. To me when staff got players hyped up and excited it usually ended in a lot of money being spent. The more energetic the staffer, the more energetic the gamer. Now it seems that most staff could really care less about what they sell. It's become a job more than a love/hobby. But I can only comment about my area not anyone elses. And this is subjective.

White Dwarfs were full of articles that didn't involve new releases front to back repeated over and over. Tale of four gamers, campaign plots/ideas, detailed battle reports (maybe these are back. Haven't picked up a WD in a year) and articles like them were common month to month. It just seems like now all WD is, is "Here are the new terminators. (advert, advert) Here are the sprues of said Terminators. (advert, advert) Heres how to paint a Terminator. (advert, advert) Heres some tactics for Terminators. (advert, advert) Heres how Terminators... oh crap thats all we have room for." :p

But like I said. I play games for me. Not GW. We hype ourselves up about gaming. We make our hobby fun. All the problems I have with GW I simply have to ignore. I realise now that getting mad solves nothing. It is what it is. I can go to other suppliers, I can choose to create my own campaigns and run my own leagues. I make my gaming career. Not GW.

Fair enough. i don't remember any of those things, but I've never frequented a GW store or played in events. :) Our little group just keeps on keeping on.

I do think that WD needs some help. but it seems to be on the right track.

J.P. Biff
24-09-2011, 00:16
I appreciate the story and I don't mean to be a jerk

I love how statements like this are always followed by people saying something "jerk like" :p


but ... how is it that you came to decide 8th was less tactical, or that it inadequately "separated" veteran and "scrub" players (and there are a whole bunch of issues with such statements that I won't even get into yet) without even playing it much (f any) at all?

It was fairly easy to spot really. No more guessing ranges. Being allowed to measure anything at any time. Wizards of all levels being allowed to the same amount of casting dice. Etc. etc. These were things that separated the newbs from the vets. Its a learned skill yeah. But initially. It WAS a difference in the two types of players.


--because though 8th Ed. can be a beer-and-pretzels game, it is not inherently so.

8th isn't inherently anything per se. Its whatever the gamer that plays it wants it to be. Your statement makes no sense either way you want to look at it. It CAN inherently be a beer and pretzels game if I want it to be. It can be inherently a crappy ruleset if I want it to be. It can be competitive if I want it to be.



7th wasn't your problem

I never said it was. I said my attitude towards gaming was. And thats something I'm going to have to keep focused on so that it doesn't happen again. Like you said.

I appreciate your input. Thank you for your response.

J.P. Biff
24-09-2011, 00:19
Our little group just keeps on keeping on.

Thats awesome. A solid group of players with similar mentalities is a great thing. It keeps your interest in the hobby fresh and alive IMO.

The bearded one
24-09-2011, 11:32
It was fairly easy to spot really. No more guessing ranges. Being allowed to measure anything at any time. Wizards of all levels being allowed to the same amount of casting dice. Etc. etc. These were things that separated the newbs from the vets. Its a learned skill yeah. But initially. It WAS a difference in the two types of players.

While it's obvious for guessranges and measuring, I don't exactly see how wizards being allowed to use the same amount of casting dice seperated the newbs from the vets :p

Even so I played 7th edition for about 4-5 years but I was never terribly good at guessranges.. I played dwarfs so there was almost no need to be able to spot roughly how far 6 or 8 inches was, because I could never charge anyway. But the artillery dice just always seemed to help me nicely when shooting :p

Though while it may be less obvious than in 7th, where you had to learn the skill to spot distances, 8th has different aspects that seperate vets from beginners (I have a distaste for the term 'newbs'), like riskassesment; are you confident you can make that charge? Do you think you can knock enough models off the enemy to cancel their steadfast so you won't be flanked in the next round? Do you want to cast your spells with as few dice as possible, or do you want to use more dice to prevent your Slann/archmage/grey seer etc. breaks his concentration (<- this one often comes into play for me, something that wasn't present in 7th and allowed the infamous 1-dice invocationing. Now I can't risk casting with 1 dice)

It's a different game, but I think it still seperates veterans from beginners, just in different, less obvious, ways. These things are once again learned by experience. :)

Okuto
24-09-2011, 16:23
I had to learn to get good with guessing ranges lol. When I started in 6th I was very poo at it and mid way I got very spot on with it.

This edition does seem to close the gap a bit more which isn't too much of a big deal I suppose if you can find like minded folk.

Personally when it comes to games I just expect to get out what I put in(not so much with warhammer anymore, been there done that I play it as beer & pretzels now), however as a competitive video game player/competitive pistol shooter I would very much flume if a guy/girl who didn't put in similar time to me manage to win.

If a guy/girl beats me and put in some hard work I'm all for it, if joe smoe shows up and gives me a thrashing it's gonna leave a bad taste in the mouth.

Spyral
24-09-2011, 16:32
I still dislike GW for their pricing increases and the garbage way they handle their veteran players. Thats just inexcusable. But you know what I've realised?? I don't play games for GW. I play games for myself and to have fun with my friends. Getting angry at them changes nothing. Having fun with my friends with models I've assembled and painted myself over years and years changes many things. It makes me a happier person and a better friend.

Amen brother :)