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Sayber
22-09-2011, 09:10
Thought I'd get some opinions on the interpretation on the rules.

Now we all know you pick a point then roll the scatter dice, just as a stone thrower, however the next part is where the question lies.

It says, instead of the template, after the scatter, place the doom diver at the scatter point, then roll a d6 and move him in any direction. Any "units" touched by the doom divers base then take the damage.

Does this mean hes like a cannonball and plows through the distance in the direction he moves after the scatter, dealing d6 str5 hits to anything in his path? It doesnt say he stops when he hits a unit and it specifies multiple units in the wording.

Thought I'd share this find.

xxRavenxx
22-09-2011, 09:12
He doesn't plow through.

what he does do, if someone is very closely packed, is contact two units at once.

PeG
22-09-2011, 10:35
It works in the same way the scattering lore of fire template. It only hits stuff at the final destination

T'Green T'Bad T'Ugly
22-09-2011, 14:45
fromt he O+G FAQ

Q: Are units moved over during a flying Doom Diver Goblin’s
optional D6” movement hit? (p48)
A: No, only units under the base once the Goblin has reached
its final location are hit.

Sayber
23-09-2011, 11:01
Nice! Should have checked the FAQ first! Thanks for the answers though!

stainawarjar
23-09-2011, 11:10
Does the original point of the Doom Diver have to be centered on an enemy model?

Tayrod
23-09-2011, 11:12
there was quiet a debate regarding what the base size of the doom diving goblins was though (small flying base vs Large flying base, vs 20mm base)

TMATK
23-09-2011, 23:17
Does the original point of the Doom Diver have to be centered on an enemy model?

No, you put the original point wherever you want as long as it's not touching friendlies or a unit in combat.

stainawarjar
26-09-2011, 12:36
there was quiet a debate regarding what the base size of the doom diving goblins was though (small flying base vs Large flying base, vs 20mm base)

Was this ever clarified? When I play against Doom Divers they have always been using the small flying base...

Skarsnik, the Lord
26-09-2011, 13:08
Was this ever clarified? When I play against Doom Divers they have always been using the small flying base...

Yep, it's the small flying base. The rule says: "Place the Doom Diver Goblin model...", and the Doom Diver Goblin model has a small flying base. Seems pretty clear to me.

But I have an another question... Can the Doom Diver hit a unit in a close combat with the D6 re-positioning roll? How about a friendly unit (a Fanatic, for an example)? It says "move the template in any direction" so it's kinda legal, but is there a rule that stops me doing it that I've just missed?

- Cheers, Skarsnik.

papabearshane
26-09-2011, 13:32
Yep he can be moved onto a unit in combat, Its one of the Bad/Cheese Tactics people complaign about but it is just like a rock lobba scatering onto a unit in combat.

Tregar
26-09-2011, 18:39
Well, it's not really like a rock lobba scattering onto a unit, because you don't control the scatter of a rock lobber. The bit you do control, stops you from placing it in combat, which is the closest analog. In other words, the rules don't say one or another, but you can probably do it. Just like you can conga line wheel and slingshot your fanatics across the table turn 1 ;)

Skarsnik, the Lord
26-09-2011, 19:13
Remember that when you make a reform, your models cannot move more than twice of their M value, so Night Goblins can only get to move 8" with the reform, 4" of the normal movement + the 8" of the Fanatics = 20" = not enough to send the Fanatics on turn one unless your opponent moved first or you have a special deployment zone.

- Cheers, Skarsnik.

TMATK
26-09-2011, 19:18
I redirected divers into combat all through 7th edition and no one ever batted an eye. The problem is Matt Ward, for some reason, decided stone throwers don't need to actually target units in 8th edition. I don't know why he did this, but it doesn't change the doom diver rules.

How long have doom divers been around? Was this ever an issue before 8th edition?

My own personal house rule is to always choose a valid target with a doom diver. If it scatters, I'll redirect it wherever I want. Targeting the ground just to scoot it over on to a unit in combat is 100% legal per the rules, but not sporting.


Remember that when you make a reform, your models cannot move more than twice of their M value, so Night Goblins can only get to move 8" with the reform, 4" of the normal movement + the 8" of the Fanatics = 20" = not enough to send the Fanatics on turn one unless your opponent moved first or you have a special deployment zone.

- Cheers, Skarsnik.

It's not done with a reform. Check out Avians site for a description - http://www.avianon.net/tactics/fanatics.php

The "wheel launch" is what you want. It's so cheesy it's a joke, and I can't imagine anyone has ever actually tried it in a game.

Yrrdead
26-09-2011, 19:45
I'm not sure how old that tactic is TMATK but it isn't legal in 8th.

The turn maneuver doesn't even exist anymore.

TMATK
26-09-2011, 20:06
I'm not sure how old that tactic is TMATK but it isn't legal in 8th.

The turn maneuver doesn't even exist anymore.

They could swift reform to accomplish the same thing.

When a unit wheels, it moves as far as the outside model(not the models in the rear). If the unit is in that conga-line, you only measure the front model, which swings the rear all the way out.

Yrrdead
26-09-2011, 20:15
Well the fact that you are performing two maneuvers instead of one doesn't nullify the rule for maneuvers.

By that I mean on pg 14

[...]Also, none of the models in the unit may move more than twice their Movement rate as a result of a maneuver.

That was added into 8th edition. It isn't present in the 7th edition movement rules.

Avian
26-09-2011, 20:24
That doesn't really make a difference, as "[w]hen a unit performs a wheel, every model counts as having moved as far as the outside model [of the front rank]".

Yrrdead
26-09-2011, 20:32
I disagree, you have first and foremost what I quoted. Then you have further restrictions outlined under specific manuevers. You must follow all of them. I'm not sure I'm explaining what I mean very well. Let me try it like this.

Rule A (max movment)
Rule A1(wheels)
Rule A2 (reforms)

When performing a wheel you must follow the restrictions in Rule A and A1. If performing a reform, A and A2. Swift Reform and wheel? A, A1, A2.

Mr_Rose
26-09-2011, 20:32
Yeah, the turn-and-wheel fanatic slingshot first started appearing toward the end of 6e and became notorious in 7e, whereupon it became an "instant dreadsock" offence (dreadnoughts still being mostly lead back then), and worth a banning from my flgs.

Actually most of the proponents didn't even bother with the turn; they just set up the unit sideways against the deployment line and wen from there.

TMATK
26-09-2011, 20:37
I disagree, you have first and foremost what I quoted. Then you have further restrictions outlined under specific manuevers. You must follow all of them. I'm not sure I'm explaining what I mean very well. Let me try it like this.

Rule A (max movment)
Rule A1(wheels)
Rule A2 (reforms)

When performing a wheel you must follow the restrictions in Rule A and A1. If performing a reform, A and A2. Swift Reform and wheel? A, A1, A2.

Avian pretty much quoted the wheel rule exactly, p14.

If you ever face a 100 man unit of slaves or night goblins, the rear rank models will be moving further then the front as the unit wheels.

Avian
26-09-2011, 20:40
@ Yrrdead: Disagreeing with the actual text of the rule doesn't usually achieve much, especially when they point out in the FAQ that the rear guy counts as moving as far as the front guy.

Yrrdead
26-09-2011, 20:43
Avian pretty much quoted the wheel rule exactly, p14.

If you ever face a 100 man unit of slaves or night goblins, the rear rank models will be moving further then the front as the unit wheels.

I realize that he quoted the wheel rule exactly. That isn't in question.

My contention is that the first rule set governing all maneuvers can't be ignored without explicit permission. The rules for wheeling on the same page don't grant explicit permission. Nor do the rules for reforming or swift reforming.

TMATK
26-09-2011, 20:47
I realize that he quoted the wheel rule exactly. That isn't in question.

My contention is that the first rule set governing all maneuvers can't be ignored without explicit permission. The rules for wheeling on the same page don't grant explicit permission. Nor do the rules for reforming or swift reforming.

The wheel ruling is an exception. The key phrase is "counts as having moved".

If the front rank model moves 4", they all did, regardless of what a tape measure says ;)

Yrrdead
26-09-2011, 20:52
The wheel ruling is an exception. The key phrase is "counts as having moved".

If the front rank model moves 4", they all did, regardless of what a tape measure says ;)

I understand that is what you and avain think. I just disagree, that's all. I think the addition of the first 3 maneuvers paragraph was made to stop things just like this in the first place. But that is obviously very subjective.

Avian
27-09-2011, 05:19
If that were the intent, they would have said to measure using the REAR outside guy and not make a clarification that says the opposite of what you are claiming.

Yrrdead
27-09-2011, 06:11
What makes more sense my interpretation that you follow the rules for all maneuvers that state you can't move a model more than 2xM".**

Or yours where you move models grossly over 2xM" in maneuvers that "will doubtlessly be considered unsporting and unfair by many players." (http://www.avianon.net/tactics/fanatics.php)

The above is rhetorical. I think that we have both stated our opinions and there isn't going to be much movement.


**Though I recognize that a swift reform will allow one to potential move a model 2xM+M". Which is explicitly permitted per the rules for a swift reform.

Avian
27-09-2011, 15:29
The Warhammer movement rules make no kind of realistic sense whatsoever, so that card doesn't work.

Tregar
27-09-2011, 15:47
My own personal house rule is to always choose a valid target with a doom diver. If it scatters, I'll redirect it wherever I want. Targeting the ground just to scoot it over on to a unit in combat is 100% legal per the rules, but not sporting.

So you mean, you could, for example, target the area 1" from a unit in combat, and if you roll a hit or similar, then you redirect and mange to hit the unit in combat? Sneaky!