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View Full Version : Dark Elves, Sea Serpent Standard and query.



Arijharn
22-09-2011, 11:43
I'm wondering at other people's interpretations on how to handle this item re the corsair unit loosing combat. I can't seem to get some sort of consensus upon this issue so I'm just throwing it out there for discussion but for clarity's sake, here's the standard:

Dark Elves -7th ed, pg:103
"The unit is subject to the rules of frenzy."


I'm personally of the opinion that even though it's the banner that confers the benefit of frenzy, if the unit in question looses combat then they would also loose the benefit of frenzy (as per the usual rules) permanently.

However, my mate (who coincidentally is the one that plays the Dark Elves) says that while it's true that the unit would loose Frenzy at that juncture, because it's a magic standard and thus 'always active,' and it's the standard that confers the benefit of frenzy, then the next round of conflict the standard would essentially 'reissue' frenzy to the unit.

I disagree on the basis that in all other cases of 'perma frenzy' or effects that duplicate this effect (Konrad's special rule for example; or Skarbrand) are pretty specific on the fact that it goes into extra detail to illustrate this.

To further muddy the waters, we play at the local GW store, and we can't seem to get a consensus amongst the staff there either!

So, I'm wondering what you guys (and gals, I don't discriminate!) think about this issue. I really don't want to roll off every time we start a game to determine the value of this 25pt item!

tmarichards
22-09-2011, 11:51
If you lose combat you lose Frenzy, nice and simple. Your friend is wrong.

Tzeentch Lover
22-09-2011, 13:57
If you lose combat you lose Frenzy, nice and simple. Your friend is wrong.

^This. And if your friend persists, then ask him why the WoC Banner of Rage specifically calls out that the unit does not ever lose it's Frenzy.

Ravenar
22-09-2011, 14:38
I am not so sure I agree. The magic standard is still a functioning magic item. It does not follow any rule that states it quits working suddenly. Of course it can still be lost (due to a flee action from combat or from enough models dropping) and then no longer be active. As far as comparing magic items from one book to another, I do not think it is the way to go.

So in essence, did they lose the magic item by being beat in combat? No.
Does that magic item state it quits working if its bearer's unit is beat in combat? No.

I can see where the the friend is coming from.

hamsterwheel
22-09-2011, 14:47
I am not so sure I agree. The magic standard is still a functioning magic item. It does not follow any rule that states it quits working suddenly. Of course it can still be lost (due to a flee action from combat or from enough models dropping) and then no longer be active. As far as comparing magic items from one book to another, I do not think it is the way to go.

So in essence, did they lose the magic item by being beat in combat? No.
Does that magic item state it quits working if its bearer's unit is beat in combat? No.

I can see where the the friend is coming from.

The game is based off a permissive rule set just like every other GW game. Permission has to be granted to do something rather than taking the perspective that there is no rule so therefore you can do it.

The banner gives the unit Frenzy, the rulebook tells you that you lose Frenzy if you lose combat. The other magic banners or special rules that grant Frenzy permanently can bypass the losing Frenzy rule because they have special permission to do so, which this banner does not.

Questionable-Methods
22-09-2011, 22:24
As everyone has been saying - You lose combat, frenzy is gone. I think the only way you could get it back is if there were a specific spell that caused frenzy. The standard would not re-confer any special ability.

Personally, I think the idea of the banner providing it as a 'continous effect' is a bit of a stretch.

EDMM
22-09-2011, 23:34
As everyone has been saying - You lose combat, frenzy is gone. I think the only way you could get it back is if there were a specific spell that caused frenzy. The standard would not re-confer any special ability.

Personally, I think the idea of the banner providing it as a 'continous effect' is a bit of a stretch.

Except for banners that provide it as an explicit part of their function, such as the WoC Banner of Rage.

Ravenar
23-09-2011, 14:54
First, let me start by stating that I do not have my books with me at my curent location so if I make a mistake or two.... oops.

Second, to compare magic items from two different books, written at two different times, and (two different people?) seems wrong to do.

As far as the Sea Serpent Standard, I have played in two locales in the past year, northern Virginia and southern Georgia. In both places, we use this standard as the friend in the the OP's post stated. We also play if you lose the standard, then you lose frenzy as the magic banner is what grants frenzy. Are we playing it wrong? Sure, maybe... I had no doubt that we were playing it correctly until this thread was started.

So let me ask you this.... how do you see the magic standard working? Does it grant Frenzy to the units at the start of the game until beaten in combat? If so, does that mean that IF the magic banner is somehow nullified/stolen that the unit keeps Frenzy? Or is Frenzy only in effect when the standard is in play? Of course the last option would be that the unit would lose frenzy anytime beaten in combat or they lose the magic banner for any reason... and that just seems like people hating on Dark Elves.

In case it is not apparent, yes, I do play Dark Elves but very passively. My main army is Brettonian and I used to face many Dark Elf opponents. I never once took this small combo away from them as a constantly working magic item (does not have a use limit) seems to be the correct explanation.

Tyrannus
24-09-2011, 00:16
Ive always played it as the banner grants the Frenzy Special Rule. That rule states you lose it if the unit loses combat so i just consider it a normal banner after unit loses.

I do not see anything under the Item that allows you to ignore that part of the special rule.

Kalandros
24-09-2011, 03:33
Indeed, the BANNER loses the Frenzy Rule that it grants.

vorthrax
26-09-2011, 19:46
I play Dark Elves and, although I never use the frenzy banner, I have always thought it grants the unit the frenzy special rule once. The unit can then permanently lose the special rule if it loses in combat.

Now that I have read some of the arguments otherwise, I question that. I don't have the books or the FAQs in front of me but, going on previous posts, the rules for the banner don't say WHEN frenzy is granted. Isn't it just as reasonable to assume that frenzy is constantly granted as it is to assume it is granted once at the start of the game and only once? Neither case seems to be specifically stated in the rules.

Do the FAQs have anything to say about this?

Also, do any rules, anywhere, state that a special rule granted to a unit/model by a magic item is always considered to be granted once only unless the rules for that item specifically say otherwise?

narrativium
26-09-2011, 21:59
The rule is true as of the moment it's put into the army list, until it's lost.

You take a unit with a standard and you give it the Sea Serpent Standard. That unit has frenzy, until the conditions for losing frenzy are met. A magical item will specify the normal rules which it contradicts (and there are banners which grant frenzy which cannot be lost; this is not one of them).

By the same token, a model with the Wizarding Hat is a level 2 wizard - and if they suffer a miscast which loses some levels, then the Wizarding Hat will not restore those levels any more than a 'natural' level 2 wizard regenerates levels. A unit of Horrors, for example, can suffer from effects which reduces its Wizard level but their 'proper' level regenerates due to how it's picked.

The Stone of the Crystal Mere doesn't regenerate its ward save either. It works until it fails. The Dragonhide Banner doesn't regenerate its breath weapon; since it doesn't specify otherwise, it's a once-only item.

If the banner specified that its frenzy couldn't be lost, or can be regained, then that would be the case. But since it doesn't, it follows the rules for frenzy, inclusive of when the rule stops applying.

Dirty Mac
27-09-2011, 05:22
The rule book states " being beaten in combat knocks them in to a less fanatical state and therefore frenzy is lost"

whether that means fleeing combat, or just losing on combat resolution i don't know.

Don Zeko
27-09-2011, 06:13
It means losing on combat resolution.

AlphariusOmegon20
27-09-2011, 07:09
So in essence, did they lose the magic item by being beat in combat? No.


Wrong, they did lose the banner, because they lost it when they ran. Banners are automatically captured and lost when you run from combat. ( BRB pg. 94)

Kalandros
27-09-2011, 09:02
Wrong, they did lose the banner, because they lost it when they ran. Banners are automatically captured and lost when you run from combat. ( BRB pg. 94)

Losing combat does not mean you have fled...

Ugh why are these rules thread getting more and more repetitive.

Althwen
27-09-2011, 09:19
gah, it seems that people are so used to computers and tehir programmes that they now start to view the world int his way too.
There is no such thing as an 'updating banner'. Items in Warhammer don't 'check against values'. You are frenzied and if you lose combat -> you lose frenzy unless stated otherwise. Stop reasoning like a programmer!

THELOSTCITY
27-09-2011, 09:42
I have a question, which may make this more complicated.

If a character joins a unit with the banner does he gain frenzy?

And therefore, If a character joins a unit who has the banner where the unit has been beaten in combat (so the unit doesn't have frenzy), does he still gain the benefits of the banner as he hasn't met the condition to loose frenzy yet.

narrativium
27-09-2011, 11:08
For the character to gain frenzy by joining a unit, that unit would have to have a rule stating that the unit has frenzy. If the unit had frenzy but has lost combat, the unit no longer has a rule stating that the unit has frenzy, so the character would not gain the lost benefit.

decker_cky
28-09-2011, 04:22
Part of the rules for frenzy is that you lose frenzy if you lose combat. You lose combat, so as per the rules the banner gives you, you lose frenzy.