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Lester
22-09-2011, 18:31
Anyone tried running armies with little magic (just one mage hero lvl 2, maybe two lvl 1)? Of course, there are armies who depend on Magic (the Undead armies come to mind, for example), but most armies should hold up for the task.
Many would say the +2 to Dispell/Cast over a lvl 2 that a Mage Lord offers is too much of a necessity. But it comes at a great cost, most notably for most armies is making the Mage Lord your General, who is usually frail, can blow himself via miscast (even if rare), and has lower Ld than a Combat Lord. I can hear your counters already:
-You can put mages in bunker units and/or give him Ward Saves to counter it's frailty: True, but it comes at a cost of more points, which can be used elsewhere. It should be noted that a Combat Lord has access to a save naturally (Armor) which can be supplemented with Wards and has usually higher WS, which makes him more durable (important to your general).
-Said bunker unit can carry the Standard of Discipline, making Mage Lords the same Ld as a Combat one: Again, that comes at a cost of points and an asset (Magic Banner Slot). Also, a Combat Lord with the Standard could get the Ld even higher than a Mage Lord.
-Power Dice are a resource that if you get too many, a lvl 2 would not use all: There are Bound Spells (in items and models for some armies) that can take care of your extra Dice. But keep in mind, with the average of 7 Dice, it is enough for lvl 2. There are also spells like Fireball with various modes to throw extra dice at.

Try an exercise and see how much more points you use on a lvl 4 with a dedicated bunker, Ld Banner, and extra protection vs a lvl 2 with a Dispell Scroll.

WarlockLoki
22-09-2011, 19:13
I am totally with you. I personally dislike the fact that more and more armys rely completely on magic. For O&G the Lvl4 WildOrc shaman is set. The GM for Ogres is set. The Greatshaman for Beastmen is standard. All these are armys which are supposed to be CC orientated.

I would be very interested in some experiences with Combatlords. I do play Beatmen with a Greatchief on a Gnargor-Car. Works well while my most often faced opponent doesn't rely on magic, too.
Burned child fears the magic...

Texhnolyze
22-09-2011, 19:14
In 1500 I run just a lv 2 with my dark elves. I manage just fine, I even got some really mean spells of vs my buddies slaughtermaster and firebelly.

I doubt I will spend points on a lv4 in 2000+. But I will include a lv 1 Mage for a scroll and another lore.

I find that running with low magic and some fighty characters is much more fun, and it also frees up some points for other stuff.

Lowmans
22-09-2011, 20:39
I tend to play a Beastlord with my beastmen. However, I do tend to play several shamen in support.

Possibly because I tend to use magic to buff rather than kill. It just never seems to work for me the other way!

Gaargod
22-09-2011, 23:16
I fully intend to run a cavalry based lizardmen army, with a carnosaur mounted oldblood as general. I did so for much of 7th ed, had lots of fun with it and a very respectable win/loss ratio (including a couple of tournament wins/placements).
I also fully expect to lose.

I think lizardmen can actually run magic light respectably well. Take, maybe, 2 skink priests. One with scroll, and one with diadem of power. Maybe make 1 a level two for the extra dispel. You shouldn't explode 'too' badly in the opponent's magic phase. And you can get a choppy dinosaur! Win win.

w3rm
23-09-2011, 00:28
Combat Lords are still great. However they're mainly used to carry those big magic items.

Destroy of Eternites, Death Mask, Folding Fortress and the Wizarding Hat are great reasons to take a combat lord. Combat Lords are great for that and for providing +1 leadership most of the time.

However you're not usually gonna see a combat lord with Lizardmen or Skaven. Thier wizards provide the leadership they need and provide deadly magic.

Characters can't really slaughter thier way through units anymore. However they are good tarpits or monster killer.

Enigmatik1
23-09-2011, 01:17
Combat Lords are still great. However they're mainly used to carry those big magic items.

Destroy of Eternites, Death Mask, Folding Fortress and the Wizarding Hat are great reasons to take a combat lord. Combat Lords are great for that and for providing +1 leadership most of the time.

However you're not usually gonna see a combat lord with Lizardmen or Skaven. Thier wizards provide the leadership they need and provide deadly magic.

Characters can't really slaughter thier way through units anymore. However they are good tarpits or monster killer.

I agree. I still field Tomb Kings in my lists, but it's almost always to carry one of the aforementioned items (sans the Fortress...yuck) or the obligatory Sword of Bloodshed. Hell, I still might break out the Dunce Cap for yucks every so often. :D

Sh4d0w
23-09-2011, 01:18
yeah i try not to use any magic when i play with my dwarves..my opponent just gets destroyed

Lester
23-09-2011, 01:31
yeah i try not to use any magic when i play with my dwarves..my opponent just gets destroyed
Your Dwarfs can use magic?
What army book are you using? My copy has no such thing! ;)

Okuto
23-09-2011, 01:56
I don't use any magic outside a lvl 2 for any of my armies outside my TK, I always looked at magic to be a nice garnish not a main course but it's been getting out of hand lately, in my main army(empire) I just load up on priests and leave it at that, don't wanna get tempted to try out the crazy spells, even when I have the option to cast a big spell(often with my greenskins) I never do it as I find it distasteful, no one wants to see their general get pasted first couple of turns.

Hordes...well I just pie plate them to death, more reliable than some old coot waving a wand I say.

Just cause my common high elf enemies enjoy nuking me to death with magic doesnt mean I have to do it to.

Madcapmushroom
23-09-2011, 09:52
At 2000 points, I usually only take a lvl 1 goblin scroll caddy in my Orcs and Goblins.

Just means more points to spend on Troops. Give me a good squad of savage orcs anyday. After all they: remain in play, cant be dispelled, dont cause miscasts and cause 24 str 4 attacks :D

CaptScott
23-09-2011, 11:35
At 2000 points, I usually only take a lvl 1 goblin scroll caddy in my Orcs and Goblins.

Just means more points to spend on Troops. Give me a good squad of savage orcs anyday. After all they: remain in play, cant be dispelled, dont cause miscasts and cause 24 str 4 attacks :D

My thoughts exactly! Save the point and load out on troops.

Daicon
23-09-2011, 11:48
While my Ogres never leave home without their Tyrant at the fore, I do bring a decent amount of magical support to supplement the army. This normally consists of two level 2 Butchers, one with the lore of the Maw and the other Beasts. The buff spells, especially Wildform, are too good to pass up on for a generally low armour save army. Further, I'll normally take a level 1 firebelly to accompany my leadbelchers. He either rolls flaming sword to be an all around good source of help, or swaps for fireball to add even more shooty death to the unit. Likewise, that breath attack can really help if I need to throw the belchers into an enemy units flank in support of another Ogre block.

Sh4d0w
25-09-2011, 12:34
Your Dwarfs can use magic?
What army book are you using? My copy has no such thing! ;)

Well i was actually being sarcastic here, unfortunately dwarves miss out on magic :/

Lester
25-09-2011, 15:05
Well i was actually being sarcastic here, unfortunately dwarves miss out on magic :/
So was I. ;)

Sh4d0w
26-09-2011, 04:38
sarcasm does not translate over the internet well haha