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Sh4d0w
23-09-2011, 06:34
So my mate has this 1250 pt army:
Sorc-lvl 2, spell familar, tzeentch-other items that give him a 3+ ward against shooting attacks and 1+ armour.
Bsb-3+ward 3+ arm, halberd
18xwarriors- shields, full command, tzeentch
18xwarriors-shields, full command, tzeentch
warshrine-tzeentch

As you can see theres alot of solid ward saves

I play dwarves
Runesmith- 1+rerollable arm save. dispell scroll
bsb- 1+ rerollable arm save
32x warriors, gw full command
32x warriors, gw full command
Organ gun
grudge thrower- str 5 shots with reroll for artillery.


I cant really work out how to beat him, any help?

wamphyri101
23-09-2011, 11:51
As a WoC recent convert all I can suggest from your list against his is:

1: Target 1 unit at a time. Hit it with all your ranged stuff to reduce it to a strength you can deal with in combat then target the next unit. You will have 3 turns of shooting as his army is slow.

I would maybe target the shrine first before he can get the “double 6” buff off. Then I would go for one of the units of 18. Grudge thrower can kill a shrine with 1 hit.. its amazing the number of times I have failed a 3+ roll..

2: Get some thunderers. Even a small unit will help reduce his as its 4+ to wound the warriors and will reduce them to a 5+ save/6+ ward.

3: Hammerers are a pain in the ass for warriors. Maybe upgrade one of your units to “count as” hammerers if you don’t own any.

4: Yes the characters are solid defence wise, but if you crack the units (you have more troops than him so he wont be stubborn) then you win. His max leadership is 8 also so that hurts WoC in combat if rolls go bad.

In 8th Edition I feel it is a game of ganging up for elves/dwarfs/WoC. A lot of the time you need to send Multiple units into 1 enemy. Try it!

If you can knock 1 unit down to be less of a threat, you can just throw both your units into combat with his 1 stronger unit and hopefully nail him.

Also remember you only get parry saves from front, so if you can flank charge him with one of your GW units then he will only get a 5+ save, 6+ ward

The bearded one
23-09-2011, 11:54
I wouldn't go for thunderers. Organ guns produce more damage on average as a unit of 10 thunderers for less points.

Do you deploy your units as a horde? I'd try to squeeze out a few more points and increase the size of the units. A horde of GW warriors should be able to beat a unit of chaos warriors (in fact even marauders with great weapons can beat an equal amount of points worth of chaos warriors).

wamphyri101
23-09-2011, 11:58
Btw is his mage mounted? Not sure how he has a 1+ save as the golden eye of tzeentch is the thing that gives him a 3+ ward vs shooting

With the spell familiar that doesnt give him enough points for an enchanted shield. Best save you could get him to would be a 3+ (chaos armour, charmed shield)

PeG
23-09-2011, 12:00
I am in process of potentially starting dwarfs and WoC are common around here so this is a matchup that I have done a couple of times with borrowed models. The other armies I play have access to lore of metal which makes this a lot easier.....

the obvious part is to focus your fire to kill or almost kill one of his units before close combat starts for real.

To do this you need something to keep at least one of his blocks away from your main blocks for a while or alternatively to provide CR by for example a flank/rear charge ie something that scouts or is fast (the latter option isnt really available to dwarfs)

Once he reaches close combat you need to beat him by CR. The setup with tzeentch and shields is probably an advantage compared to the alternatives. It gives a ward save and an increased armour save for a 5+ , 5+ save but it also gives fewer kills. Halberds and mark of Khorne would be worse.

You will outrank him (5-6 ranks compared to 2 full ranks and a partial rear rank if you manage to kill a single model). You can potentially get the charge and if you also can get a unit in his flank / rear you can get additional bonuses. If you hit him in the rear make sure that his additional attacks dont give him more then 2 kills, flank is often a better option.

I dont see going horde yourself as a good option. It will add some attacks to both parties (more to you) before attacks but then he will kill a bunch of dwarfs and quickly reduce the number of dwarfs that can hit back.

I dont know the dwarf runes yet and dont have the book but anything that gives additional CR or lowers his leadership woudl be valuble and also if you can make him reroll successful ward/armour saves etc.

teafloy_the_damned
23-09-2011, 12:08
As the Bearded one said, organ gun are great.

They eat chaos warriors for breakfast.

I find that vs 25mm bases, the stone thrower less effective.

Personally i'd ditch it, and take 2 OG and strengthen your core boys

GodlessM
23-09-2011, 12:08
Note your Mate is pulling a slight fast one on your with the BSB as if he has a Halberd and a 3+ ward, then there's no way for him to have a 3+ armour in combat as he doesn't have enough points for the Dragon Helm, and can't use a Shield when he has a Halberd.

Ward.
23-09-2011, 13:21
Have you considered throwing a cannon in to get some cheap kills while he plods accross the board/ pick off that shrine?

Sh4d0w
23-09-2011, 13:23
Some quick fixes about his heroes i wasnt quite right, his bsb has a 4+ arm and 3+ ward while his sorc is on a disc and has a 3+ward and 2+ arm (enchanted shield)

BloodiedSword
23-09-2011, 14:10
I probably wouldn't bother trying to shoot down the warshrine, a 3+ ward gets really really frustrating. I'd start just focusing down 1 unit with your shooting - if you can reduce it below 10 men before it reaches you then you've basically won, since it can neither threaten nor defend flanks effectively.

Alternatively you could drop the grudge thrower, drop a few men from each unit and take a 3rd big infantry block. Since he has literally nothing to protect his flanks, as soon as you have more units than him you at worst have to hold a single charge to get a combined flank charge.

Sh4d0w
24-09-2011, 00:57
well i could go with 22x warriors, 22xwarriors and 20x long beards
would that work better?

Oogie boogie boss
26-09-2011, 14:59
Note your Mate is pulling a slight fast one on your with the BSB as if he has a Halberd and a 3+ ward, then there's no way for him to have a 3+ armour in combat as he doesn't have enough points for the Dragon Helm, and can't use a Shield when he has a Halberd.

CAn he even have a halberd when he's carrying a battle standard? A Halberd require two hands to use, hence can't be used in conjunction with a shield, so surely can't be used with a BS?

As forthe more overall question, i'd go shooty heavy. Ditch the rock lobber, and go for cannons.
At 1,250 points, you wont get more than 1 Organ gun, so use Thunderers and Cannons instead, concentrate your fire on each unit till it's dead/combat ineffective, then have some Warrior units ready to deliver a coup de grace. Even with all the firepower in the army, you should still be able to get at least two units of 25 warriors.
And don't go character havy, just take a Runesmith or two to stop his magic. If everything goes to plan, you should have effectively beaten him before he even reaches you.

Hope that helps. :D

muppet515
26-09-2011, 15:18
CAn he even have a halberd when he's carrying a battle standard? A Halberd require two hands to use, hence can't be used in conjunction with a shield, so surely can't be used with a BS?



Yep, nothing in the rules to say the battle standard (or any standard) takes up a hand, I think it's assumed the standard gets planted in the ground while he fights.

geldedgoat
26-09-2011, 15:51
his sorc is on a disc and has a 3+ward and 2+ arm (enchanted shield)

He can't have the Golden Eye of Tzeentch, Spell Familiar, and Enchanted Shield. That would be 5 points over his 50 point limit on magic items, as he would have to use the more expensive Enchanted Shield from the WoC army book.

He could, however, take a Charmed Shield. That would give him a 2+ armor save: 4+ for Chaos Armor, 3+ for being mounted, and then 2+ for the shield. (The Enchanted Shield, if he could take it, would give him a 1+ armor save).

He could, that is, if he wasn't already over his points for heroes to begin with. At 1250 points, he has a max of 312.5 points to spend on heroes, and his current setup clocks in at 376 (185 for the sorc and 191 for the BSB).

And are you sure he didn't have anything else in his list? I'm getting 1202 for his total points (338 x 2 for his warriors, 150 for the shrine, and then 376 for the heroes).

Morax
26-09-2011, 16:06
Wamphyri said it best, with your current list, gang up on one unit, bring it down then shift to the next. I wouldn't worry about the shrine and would focus your shooting on the mage for some easy victory points. On a disc his wizard counts as a calvary model and so doesn't get a look out sir save from anything. 2 turns of concentrated shooting should bring him down no problem.