PDA

View Full Version : Is Magic Resistance worth it in 8th?



Lord Skrolk
23-09-2011, 10:25
A ponderance,

is Magic Resistance worth it in 8th? It would seem not, with it not helping against spells like Pit, Dwellers, 13th etc it kinda seems not. But it does seem to be an untapped resource. Wondering if people out there made the most of the now stackable saves it provides or is it best to spend points elsewhere?

:wtf:

The bearded one
23-09-2011, 10:26
Short answer: no

Longer answer: * chuckle * nohohohohooo


It's nice if you happen to have it already, like bloodletters and the screaming bell, but generally it's not worth shelving out points for it. On it's own it'll need to be at least 5+ to be worth it, in combination with an existing wardsave it could potentially be nice, but generally it won't see much action as hexes, buffs and ignore-all-saves spells are more popular than direct damage.

dragonet111
23-09-2011, 10:34
It's nice if you happen to have it already, like bloodletters and the screaming bell, but generally it's not worth shelving out points for it. On it's own it'll need to be at least 5+ to be worth it, in combination with an existing wardsave it could potentially be nice, but generally it won't see much action as hexes, buffs and ignore-all-saves spells are more popular than direct damage.

Exactly every time you would like magic resistance to help you is when it's totally ignored.
Unless your opponent use an old lore (like the Tzeentch daemon lore for instance) magic resitance is worthless.

theunwantedbeing
23-09-2011, 10:34
No, it's not worth it.

Largely as the good spells are hexes or simply ignore saves.
Plus it tends to get in the way of having a ward save which is far more useful.

Lord Skrolk
23-09-2011, 10:42
Much what I thought, annoying. But, that said... if it was a viable save against affore mentioned uber spells and hexes, would it not simple become a 1+ in every army effectively reducing what is agruably a necessary force in 8th... ie deleting hordes etc?

Cant decide wether its annoying or good.

Probably annoying.

Haravikk
23-09-2011, 10:49
Most of the spells that you don't want cast on you either bypass or flat out ignore the save that Magic Resistance will give. That isn't to say it's completely useless, as it can be very nice against direct-damage focused lores like the Lore of Fire or Lore of Metal, but in a general sense it's not really worth shelling out on unless you can somehow get it more cheaply than normal.

If you house-rule it to be always be usable, then it can be more useful. You might want to take a look at the house-rules link in my signature, as it has some discussion about making magic resistance more usable; the current preferred method is to allow magic resistance as a single roll to negate the spell, i.e - if the spell is successfully cast then the defender rolls a D6, if they can get equal or less than their Magic Resistance value then the spell has no effect; if the spell has no immediate target (such as vortices, Pit of Shades etc.) then you first work out the target before rolling for magic resistance, and the best MR value is always used if several units are affected.

SunTzu
23-09-2011, 11:25
*Ahem* I think my sig sums up my feelings on the subject.

Lord Skrolk
23-09-2011, 11:38
Hmm, like the sound of your house rules. Something to give a try.

Andy p
23-09-2011, 12:03
If it gave the ward against all spells regardless of whether those spells claim to ignore all saves or not, or if certain spells were errated to be ignores armour and regen but not 'all' saves, then it might be more useful.

Knuuut
23-09-2011, 13:22
Much what I thought, annoying. But, that said... if it was a viable save against affore mentioned uber spells and hexes, would it not simple become a 1+ in every army effectively reducing what is agruably a necessary force in 8th... ie deleting hordes etc?

Lord Skrolk sums it up.. As much as I want the MR to actually do something useful, it will only make the most effective counter to hordes and death stars rather inadequate. MR gives ward saves regardless of spell = auto include..

brynolf
23-09-2011, 13:33
It might be somewhat useful for units that tend to be targeted by certain types of spells. Knights are normally vulnerable to Lore of metal damage spells, and so might have some use of a MR2 banner or something. Trolls don't want to get hurt by fire spells, so might want to bring some MR.

But generally it is totally crap. MR and Skirmishers are the rules I like the least in 8th.

Lester
23-09-2011, 13:47
I liked it back when MR added Dice to Dispells. It was clean and simple.

kyussinchains
23-09-2011, 15:19
I liked it back when MR added Dice to Dispells. It was clean and simple.

yes it was, I don't see why this has been changed, I've yet to see a compelling reason from even the most ardent supporters of 8th edition.... as it is, it just does not make any logical sense at all....

Lester
23-09-2011, 15:31
yes it was, I don't see why this has been changed, I've yet to see a compelling reason from even the most ardent supporters of 8th edition.... as it is, it just does not make any logical sense at all....
It also made sense.
"Hey Wizard, I resist magic naturally, so you don't need as much effort to dispell those aimed at me, and if it is a weak spell, you may not need to lift a finger".

Far2Casual
23-09-2011, 15:39
I think even the most ardent supporters of 8th edition will recognize that it isn't perfect. And they will almost all agree that Magic Resistance is one of the biggest miss of the edition.

Norngahl
23-09-2011, 15:44
As already said before, Magic Resistance would be totally fine if it works against every spell..

For example for the obsidian trinket: 6+ Ward Save against those damage spells, Spell effects (support/hexes/anything else) ignored (enemy and friendly) on a throw of 6+ for the entire model/regiment.

IŽd take a trinket on a char, so expensive stuff/masses actually get any protection against magic..

If it weakens support spells as well, youŽd also have to be carefull with MR as you could weaken your magic plans as well.

Von Wibble
23-09-2011, 17:58
yes it was, I don't see why this has been changed, I've yet to see a compelling reason from even the most ardent supporters of 8th edition.... as it is, it just does not make any logical sense at all....

At the time of 7th I hated the fact my casket of souls could be dispelled entirely just because 1 unit had MR - surely it should simply not affect that unit but affect the others as normal. Its resistance to magic, not dispelling power, so it shouldn't improve the chance to dispel, merely protect from its effects.

Rather like suncream - me putting on some factor 40 doesn't block out the sun or prevent my friend from getting burnt if he goes out with cooking oil rubbed on him, it simply helps to stop me from getting burnt.

I think the dice roll to save is fine. All that needs changing is that it should apply to all spells types and effects (roll once for hexes for simlpicitiy).

H33D
23-09-2011, 18:01
I put two runes of sanctuary on my Dwarf Lord the other day to see if it would come in handy.

The 2+ ward save against that nasty shadow sniper spell that wounds from a strength test was nice, especially because i passed on a 3.

Scalebug
23-09-2011, 18:15
Yeah, it sure feels they were aiming at fixing things like it helping too much against spells affecting "all units within X range" (especially as you in 7th didn't measure the range until after you had dispelled, making it a question what to do with MR units possibly in range of something...), and simply cut too deep, making it very "meh..." now.

A simple "target is not affected on a roll of X+" would fix it, now it is not worth taking, only really seen if it is something that comes with it automatically, or if it is a secundary effect not adding too much to another upgrade, eg "4+ ward and MR(1)".

Urgat
23-09-2011, 18:25
yes it was, I don't see why this has been changed, I've yet to see a compelling reason from even the most ardent supporters of 8th edition.... as it is, it just does not make any logical sense at all....

Ardent supporter of 8th ed here! The new version of the magic resistance rule... sucks. It belongs to my cursed trinity: TLOS, skirmishers, and MR.

Scalebug
23-09-2011, 19:26
Agreeing with Urgat, although I don't mind TLOS in itself, what I would like to see is a cleaning up of it's interaction with "arcs", from bases and 'eyes' and hit modifiers.

So I'm replacing TLOS with the catch-all 1" apart rule for my cursed trinity.

Okuto
23-09-2011, 20:33
ummm....no

I learned that the hard way in my first reintroduction game of 8th....

dimetri1
23-09-2011, 20:34
Magic resistance is so useless GW should drop it from the rules set and reduce the points of the current magic resistance units in the game accordingly...... or make it useful again. Of coarse we will see neither.

Bodysnatcher
23-09-2011, 20:47
MR on its own - yick. MR in combo with ward is pretty nasty. A lot of 2+ wards against magic missiles floating about.
What if MR was a bonus to dispell that did not stack with wizard bonuses? Cast a spell against an MR 2 unit - you can either use the +2 from the MR or the +2 from your level 2 wizard. Potentially also helps dwarves out by stacking with their +2 basic bonus.
Another idea is MR giving bonus D3s to dispell.

TsukeFox
24-09-2011, 07:04
It is worth it if you house rule that it works against all
magic

Gazak Blacktoof
24-09-2011, 08:11
For those who have slightly dodgy memories, MR didn't work well as it was written in 7th either. There were issues revolving around targeting and exactly when the rule came into force. The new rules make it clear when MR should be used, those uses are just fairly limited.

Andy p
24-09-2011, 10:55
Much what I thought, annoying. But, that said... if it was a viable save against affore mentioned uber spells and hexes, would it not simple become a 1+ in every army effectively reducing what is agruably a necessary force in 8th... ie deleting hordes etc?



Well...yes and no, it's true there are a few armies who can get way above MR 3, (which im using because the 4+ ward item from the BRB would most likely be the first port of call if it was changed to work on all spells), through combining their own ward save and the MR one, or by using a few MR items too like Morks War banner.

However there are plenty of armies who dont really have much access to either ward saves or MR, beyond the aforementioned MR 3 item.

You could also just as easily FAQ those no save spells to ignore normal wards but still allow just the MR wards on their own. A 4+ward is still pretty good, but it's a 50% chance to fail so big hordes will still often lose a large number of people. Besides only one person in the army can take that item before they would have to use the lesser stones.

Also as a point of comparison, the Big Waaagh spell Foot of Gork, allows ward saves and it still manages to put huge dents in things when I use it, even if im not using the multiple stomping version.

Things like chosen deathstars will always be nasty and even against those spells they arent exactly lacking in initiative, toughness or strength, so even without MR they stand a good chance of passing most tests, although I will admit that they would lose more than with MR.

If anything such hordes are more the problem of old army books than anything else. Afterall in my experience things like savage orc shrunken head hordes and Gutstars are not nearly as powerful or hard to defeat as some of the older combinations.

Anyhow, perhaps both the 6th spells and hordes wont seem so bad with the release of more 8th books, but only time will tell.

Chain
24-09-2011, 11:34
Perhaps they should simply have made magic resistance = +2 to cast a lvl
So MR3 = +6 to cast a spell targeting(perhaps have it work bothways offensive and defensive)
Still won't help anything against irrisisitable force though :(

Haravikk
24-09-2011, 12:07
yes it was, I don't see why this has been changed, I've yet to see a compelling reason from even the most ardent supporters of 8th edition.... as it is, it just does not make any logical sense at all....
Personally I like the intention behind the 8th edition MR, as the way it worked in 7th edition didn't fully make sense. The 8th edition mechanism at least means that the unit actually resists (is less affected by) magic spells, whereas before they were actually preventing spells from occurring in the first place, and not always in a sensible way.

The problem is that by having the new, more realistic resistance be part of a ward save doesn't do anything to help against non-damaging spells, and even worse, half of the damaging spells provided by the rulebook don't like you take Ward saves anyway. If anything, that was the biggest mistake with regards to Magic Resistance.

This is why a D6 roll to simply ignore a spell's effects (but not prevent it being cast) is an interesting alternative, though in some ways it may be too simple, as it ends up all or nothing, as the unit is either entirely unaffected by the spell (only an up to 50% chance of that) or they suffer the full effects as normal. Still, it's simple, and works on all spells directed at the unit.

The other alternative is some method of scaling a spell's effects, so if you have MR(1) then you knock 1 point off the spell's effect, or receive a +1 bonus, so if you're made to take a Toughness test then you get a +1 bonus, or if your Strength goes down by D3 then you reduce the actual penalty by 1. But this would be very complex to put in practise.

It's a case of Magic Resistance being very difficult in all regards, as while the +X dispel dice mechanism was simple, it didn't really represent what MR was supposed to be doing, and had its own problems; namely spells with multiple targets being more easily dispelled just because one or more units have MR, such as the casket.

The bearded one
24-09-2011, 12:09
Personally I like the following:
"magic resistance works against spells that allow no save of any kind (note that normal wardsaves still don't work, only the ward granted by magic resistance. So a bloodletter with a 5+ ward and magic resistance 1 has a save of 6+ against spells allowing no saves of any kind, not 4+)"

I think it's worth a playtest. Using the MR save against hexes could be good, though on the other hand it might make deathstars completely untouchable and hexing unreliable as the hex has to be cast, can be dispelled, and after that might dissipate on a roll of 4+ (who'd leave home without good MR after such a change?). If it didn't get better than a 6+, it might be worth considering.

Gazak Blacktoof
24-09-2011, 12:22
I don't see anything wrong with making MR much better. Really, will people leave their ward saves, dispel scrolls, etc to take them? If they do there's an immediate weakness in another area.

As a personal preference, I'm still of the opinion that the spell shouldn't affect the resistant unit if it rolls a 5+ on a D6 (rolling a D6 for each point of resistance). It was a good fix in 7th and remains a good fix in 8th. Almost any other fix results in different applications against different spell types, which is messy.

EDIT: I think a good balance to making death stars more resilient would be to have MR apply to all spells cast on a unit, including buffs. I would also make all spell like effects (ie anvil of doom, warshrines, cauldron of blood, etc) spells/ bound spells.

I think that would balance things out quite well.

brynolf
24-09-2011, 12:29
Perhaps they should simply have made magic resistance = +2 to cast a lvl
So MR3 = +6 to cast a spell targeting(perhaps have it work bothways offensive and defensive)
Still won't help anything against irrisisitable force though :(

I like this one!

The bearded one
24-09-2011, 12:42
I don't see anything wrong with making MR much better. Really, will people leave their ward saves, dispel scrolls, etc to take them? If they do there's an immediate weakness in another area.

As a personal preference, I'm still of the opinion that the spell shouldn't affect the resistant unit if it rolls a 5+ on a D6 (rolling a D6 for each point of resistance). It was a good fix in 7th and remains a good fix in 8th. Almost any other fix results in different applications against different spell types, which is messy.

EDIT: I think a good balance to making death stars more resilient would be to have MR apply to all spells cast on a unit, including buffs. I would also make all spell like effects (ie anvil of doom, warshrines, cauldron of blood, etc) spells/ bound spells.

I think that would balance things out quite well.

The 'cancels spell on 5+, roll D6 for each point of magic resistance' approach would make me so happy to build a dwarf army consisting of 2 freakishly gigantic blocks, one of hammerers and the other of longbeards, with one having magic resistance 3 on their banner and the other having magic resistance 3 (that transfers onto the unit) on a character, and then relaxing on magic defence alltogether and just taking a runesmith instead of runelord.

Gazak Blacktoof
24-09-2011, 13:09
Well I'm not suggesting cancelling the spell, just that the unit ignores the effect. So placing lots of MR on units is a good way to prevent both players hitting them with spells, but leaves other units exposed. If your opponent takes magic missiles or radial effects to deal with support and buffs their own troops, they circumvent your bonuses.

What you're suggesting is still an eggs in one (two) basket gamble, even MR(3) isn't guaranteed to stop anything, it's no better than any other save.

The bearded one
24-09-2011, 13:47
'if your opponent takes magic missiles or radial effects'

are you suggesting that your suggestion doesn't do anything against magic missiles anymore and only works when you're specifically targetted?

Even so it'd cancel almost all hexes and effects cast at my units, in which case I don't really need a runelord for 2 extra dispeldice, a runesmith would suffice, saves me about a 100 points.

T10
24-09-2011, 18:05
A ponderance,

is Magic Resistance worth it in 8th? It would seem not, with it not helping against spells like Pit, Dwellers, 13th etc it kinda seems not. But it does seem to be an untapped resource. Wondering if people out there made the most of the now stackable saves it provides or is it best to spend points elsewhere?

:wtf:

MR is only of any value when magic deals damage (of the kind you can save) to the units you've decided to protect. There's no guarantee that MR is ever going to come into play during a battle. This is because it is up to your opponent to take the kind of action that will involve MR. Most players I know realize that magic is most effective when enhancing your own units with augment spells or cripling enemy units with hex spells. As a result, damage spells of the kind that are susceptible to MR tend to be pretty low on their priority list. The consequence of this is of course that MR is less popular.

However, MR should probably be considered "worth it" for expensive units. The cost of MR does not tend to scale with the size of the unit that benefits (except for units of models that each get MR) since a single character or standard with MR benefits the entire unit. The more costly the unit, the better effect you'll enjoy of any MR added to it. Assuming, of course, that your enemy will bother using spells that allow MR.

H33D
24-09-2011, 18:42
They just need to make it cheaper. 15 points is what you pay for a normal 6+ ward. Why pay the same for one that works only against specific attacks? You pay 5 points for a 2+ ward against flaming attacks. Maybe Magic Resistance should be priced by 5 points per level.

Haravikk
24-09-2011, 18:55
It's worth remembering that the 6+ Ward you're paying for applies to the entire unit and not just one model, so 15 points is semi-reasonable. The method of simply allowing magic resistance against all magic (even if it ignores normal Ward Saves) is the most popular fix, and I think the pricing is reasonable with that change.

The difficulty is still with the hexes though, as it isn't possible to save them in a logical way on a per-model basis, yet hexes are currently some of the most powerful spells in the game as combined with brutal combat faces they can result in the utter destruction of an entire unit.

CrystalSphere
24-09-2011, 19:26
The idea i like the most is magic resistance being quite powerful (ie. you ignore the spell effect completely) but work both ways, with both enemy and friendly spells, so trying to buff your magic resistant unit wouldnŽt be possible.

This would lead to 2 kinds of approach, the units buffed with magic, and the ones stacked with magic resistance and fighting without buffs. Both routes should be viable, and i think it would make magic resistance something of a deal, not just an afterthought. Some armies like dwarfs could be based around magic resistant troops, while other like undead would rely on buffing their own units (but leaving their own vulnerable to enemy magic).