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AnthonyLR13
23-09-2011, 16:52
I very much enjoy the Dark eldar mystique and style of the models and the army, but when i look at all the different unit combinations and vast amounts of options i get confused.

Can anyone explain to me the Dark Eldar army style and how to use them in broad terms? (basically how to play with them) and maybe some of the main units that are universally loved and used by most DE players and maybe some units to stay away from? (just trying to get a grasp on the army)


Also what advice would you give someone wanting to start up a dark eldar army, who is somewhat new to 40k and has never used to Dark elves in WHF?

thanks

Ravenous
23-09-2011, 18:14
You have to look at whats good, 40k in general favours shooting but combat is more powerful but requires you to sacrifice points.

Dark eldar are extremely fast, have very powerful shooting and combat but have very little in the way of durability. From my personal experience I find they do well against combat based armies and hybrids, but struggle against dedicated shooting armies because the back bone of most DE armies is venoms, raiders and ravagers and they are easy to kill, especially in the autocannon and missile launcher wastelands that is the current 40k.

Its also very easy to get caught up in point sinks, since you die like paper its always a good idea not to over commit too many points.

Long story short, spam darklight weapons, take a few combat units for counter attacking, spend the entire game shooting and moving away, and finally get good at playing against guard and space wolves since they are your (and everyone elses) hard counters

Dr.Clock
23-09-2011, 18:25
Speed, skill and fragility.

The basic Dark Eldar force will make use of significant numbers of fast, open topped skimmers to outmaneuver the opponent before crushing him in detail.

Having better maneuverability means that you can choose where, when and how to fight the opposing units. Ensuring favourable match-ups and applying overwhelming force is relatively easy for Dark Eldar as long as they can keep some of their trnasports intact.

On Warseer, you are going to see many players singing the praises of the blaster-armed trueborn... and these guys epitomize the DE philosophy.

Mounted in a venom with dual splinter cannons, they can reach just about anywhere on the board very quickly. Being all or mostly armed with darklight weapons means that they can bail out and threaten high-value tanks and MCs. Their transport can throw out ridiculous amounts of anti-infantry fire while moving at speed. They are also incredibly fragile, having the defensive characteristics of an Imperial Guardsman.

Most of the DE unit entries can be utilized to good effect. However, sticking with kabalite warriors and wych-cult units will be the most straightforward. Other cult units may be selected to add flavour to the list (hellions, reavers, scourges, beastmasters), depending on your preference.

As a general strategy, I tend to split my forces into two sections: assault and harassment. About half the army gets right in the opponent's face early on and attempts to tie up or draw off the opponent's strength. Wyches in assault are ridiculously hard to move, especially once they've defeated a unit and gained their FnP saves. This forms the core of my assault wing.

Everyone else kites* around, staying out of harm's way and eliminating isolated threats with overwhelming force. Once the assault units have done their thing, the harassment units close in for the kill and sieze objectives late in the game.

*Kiting: maneuvering so as to maintain the ability to threaten opposing units while simultaneously limiting opportunities for reprisal and confusing the enemy's line of advance. Basically - staying out of rapid-fire range as long as possible.

A basic 1500 point list focussing on the things listed above:

Succubus - agonizer - 85

4x trueborn - 4xblasters -108

4x trueborn - 4xblasters -108

10 wyches - 2 shardnets, agonizer, haywire - 170

9 wyches - shardnet, agonizer, haywire - 158

2x5 kabalites - blasters - 120

2x raiders - 120

4x venoms - dual cannons - night shields - 300

ravager - 105

ravager - 105

ravager - night-shields - 115

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

St Loke
23-09-2011, 18:53
Lots of paper planes are always a solid choice. You have to chose if you want CC elements, if you want a fast shooty army, or what ever suits your style. But my advice would be to go very heavy on the raider/skimmer spam, redundancy is where deldar really excels.

AnthonyLR13
23-09-2011, 19:35
im looking in the codex and i cant seem to find trueborns, and also what about archons are they permissable i like they have 4 different kinds and the urghul models look really cool.

thanks again yall

Ravenous
23-09-2011, 19:37
Trueborn are under the ELITES section, and everything in the codex is permissable.

Okuto
23-09-2011, 19:43
Frankly I find DE come in these favors

-Shooty
Speed around poisoning your enemies and running away, little combat

-Wych cult
Heavy CC based, some shooting to knock out tanks

-Coven
Lots of T4 creatures and Haemonculus

-Webway Portal
Kinda like drop pod marines except twice as fast, though only good above 1500 pts

-Deep strike
Insane to play this.....everything deepstrikes or pops outta a Webway

I started DE a few months ago and I'm still trying to understand how the army plays, I had the expectation they were gonna play like my Tau and White Scars and while they kinda do they exceed my expectations.

I just love having a proper hit and run army.

A Few tips from one DE newb to another

-Unit upgrades are wasteful, kabalites, scourges, shooty squads don't need a "sgt" gotta get out of that Imperial playing

-Venoms fullfill all your anti infantry needs

-Ravagers, however bland they look compared to the razorwing is so much easier to hide and more flexiable

-Flickerfields should be everywhere and nightshields for raiders that are carrying CQC troops

-keep troop choices to a min, it's the fast attack choices that will make up the bulk of the army

-blast pistols are like plasma pistols....a waste

-when it comes to wyches, they should be tarpits, they don't kill anything....

-beastmasters are fun.....

-The baron is fiendishly effective.....I tried to resist by he's sooo good

-Vect is fun too, having a archon that kills anything in the game as easy as he can is plain awesome

Dr.Clock
23-09-2011, 19:59
If you mean the Court of the Archon, I'd probably stay away from it to begin with... kind of a mixed bag with no clear focus... I'd take Incubi (remember your phantasm laucher) or just more wyches first.

I'm largely in agreement with Otuko except for:

a) minimum troop units? really? scoring is important, and with our notorious fragility, having a good number of troop units is key in objective units.

b) Wyches don't kill anything? really? their major strength may be tarpitting, but they will grind through most generalist units in a few turns, and give a good number of dedicated assault units a run for their money. They are also ridiculously points efficient if used correctly (ie: not allowing the enemy to shoot at them... at least until they have a pain point) They may not be wicked efficient at just steamrolling units, but mine always get in their fair share of kills... just pick your targets wisely.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

sigur
23-09-2011, 20:04
...
Also what advice would you give someone wanting to start up a dark eldar army, who is somewhat new to 40k and has never used to Dark elves in WHF?


Dark Eldar and Dark Elves in WHFB don't have all that much in common apart from either things that are so broad that they apply to all kinds of armies or very constructed.

I would suggest getting two core choices, an HQ choice, something fancy and try out things. Getting to know your army is half the fun really. Don't read too much about "tactics" online. 40k happens offline and varies TREMENDOUSLY from group to group and many of the good suggestions people have online (and in good intentions) won't do much in your games.

Okuto
23-09-2011, 20:12
When I refer to min troop choices I'm saying things like 4+ troops or things like 5 man warrior squads in venoms. Plus I've recently got hooked on the baron so hellions can take objectives too. Imo it's the elite/fast attack choices you want the bulk of the army to be made up of as they are fiendishly good at their particular job(maybe except mandrakes)


On wyches....it's always that agonizer champ that does the killing, there's much more effective things in the army can kill stuff, I find wyches are much better suited to holding the enemy while the specialists like incubi go off and kill stuff. There's really nothing else that makes a better point productive tarpit in the DE.

In my case I need the wyches to hold stuff off so my incubi and beastmasters can pick off what they want when hey want, the hellions can already do this so that's what my wyches do


As I get more use to the army I'm finding that with the DE every unit I take has to have maximum synergy, nothing in the DE is pretty self reliant, they each specialize in something with maximum effectiveness but suck when it comes in terms of their weakness so you need something to back them up.

Thus I don't really see the usefulness in a pure shooty force, it's gonna die horribly against IG but it's gonna curb stomp GK/elite armies.

AnthonyLR13
24-09-2011, 01:30
Can anyone recomend me a website or Blog dedicated to the Dark Eldar army and their tactica if at all possible?

Archangelion
24-09-2011, 01:46
Um, look at the Warseer Tactics forum. There is a Dark Eldar Tactics thread there...

Ghazbad_Facestompa
24-09-2011, 02:38
There's a link to an entire forum in my sig.

ReveredChaplainDrake
24-09-2011, 06:55
Okuto makes some pretty good points, but I would expand on them more.

-Unit upgrades are wasteful, kabalites, scourges, shooty squads don't need a "sgt" gotta get out of that Imperial playing
Eh, kinda'. I think of the Sergeant upgrades as useful for their Ld bonus. Let's face it, Ld8 is not terrific, and when it comes down to being entangled or being free to shoot one last time when your transport inevitably does go down, that extra Ld buff can make a whole tank's worth of difference. That said, I would agree that you probably don't need an Agonizer everywhere, or even a cheap little Venom Blade. The reason Marines have Powerfists everywhere is because their squads are expensive and they have to be able to fight anything at any given time, even in melee. When DE get stuck in melee, the non-stuck DE just laugh at the stuck ones and prepare to open fire at the enemy after they win combat.


-Venoms fullfill all your anti infantry needs
I've yet to try this out in practice. Sure they're shooty and have a tiny footprint (for a DE vehicle anyway), but a solid 4 wounds per turn per Venom is hardly a potent anti-infantry solution. I'm of the opinion that the answer to anti-infantry is mulching them in CC with buckets of dice. Preferably with the Hellion bodyguard you'll be getting to run around with Baron.


-Ravagers, however bland they look compared to the razorwing is so much easier to hide and more flexiable
For all the merits of a Ravager, I would hardly call it "flexible". It's a powerhouse, don't get me wrong, but it's just so one-dimensional. Now a Razorwing on the other hand is a veritable swiss army knife, given its free missiles, Dark Lances, and cheap Splinter Cannon upgrade. That's why I like Razors so much, in spite of all the "common knowledge" that suggests otherwise.


-Flickerfields should be everywhere and nightshields for raiders that are carrying CQC troops
:eyebrows: ...I think he has that backwards. Night Shields everywhere, and flickerfields on the close-up rushing Raiders. As for other upgrades, they may look fun, but they're just not worth it.


-keep troop choices to a min, it's the fast attack choices that will make up the bulk of the army


-blast pistols are like plasma pistols....a waste
Agreed. Most of the time you can just get a Blaster for the same cost someplace else in your army anyway.


-when it comes to wyches, they should be tarpits, they don't kill anything....
Which brings me to something I've learned: never underestimate Combat Drugs. I've been routinely rolling the Strength drug lately, and that's supposed to be one of the worse ones because they don't help Agonizers.


-beastmasters are fun.....
I'm more of a Hellion man myself, even without Baron being such a beast, but the great thing about Dark Eldar is that just about anybody can look at that army and find something they like... so long as you're not looking for a durable unit. ;)


-The baron is fiendishly effective.....I tried to resist by he's sooo good
By the same token, he's a force multiplier and should be treated as such. Even with the Shadowfield, you don't buy him for his close combat abilities. You buy him for what he does to a squad of Hellions (Stealth, Skilled Rider, freebie PGL) and the army (Bones of the Seer, Troop Hellions). Send him unsupported against an enemy character or an enemy squad, or pretty much anything more ferocious than the Deathleaper and he'll lose.


-Vect is fun too, having a archon that kills anything in the game as easy as he can is plain awesome
I actually find Vect to be very disappointing. It's not as if a drug-addled Agonizer Archon w/ Shadowfield is that much worse of a fighter, especially not for the points, so there's not much offensive difference for what you pay. If Vect had Eternal Warrior, that would totally seal the deal for me. But he doesn't, meaning he dies about as easily as Bob the Generic Archon, who usually costs about half what Vect does and is far easier to customize.

After this, the fact that Vect says no to drugs is the biggest deal-breaker. You do not want to mix junkie units with non-junkie characters if you can at all avoid it, or that one Hypex roll will screw you up.

AnthonyLR13
24-09-2011, 07:17
ive also noticed that unlike other armies, Dark eldars special characters look promising and useful, or is that just my ignorance and inexperience talking?

Also apart from buying the battleforce box, can yall give me an idea what a 750pt-1000pt army would look like, since im going to start small of course and build my forces up! :P

lastly it sounds like theyres different approachs to army composition with DE as mentioned above and not just 1 or 2 cookie cutter builds so could yall also discuss those somewhat too please!?

thank you all for the info and help

PS what DE units should one generally stay away from due to various reasons!? And are harlequins one of those? i hope not becasue i have fallen inlove with the death jester the character info and the model

Shamana
24-09-2011, 07:23
Harlequins aren't so much bad as that Dark Eldar have better units in the slot. Generally, in 90% of the situations incubi do the same job better.

FashaTheDog
24-09-2011, 17:53
I've found that a Dark Eldar army works best when you chose to focus on either shooting or assaulting with your list. You can throw in a little of the other, but those lists that try to evenly balance the two always seem to struggle.

I consider it standard practice to give all my vehicles Flickerfields and Nightshields as this goes a long way to keeping my army aloft. Do not underestimate just how often 6" matters with this army. As for Ravagers compared to Razorwings, I prefer the former because they are cheaper and more specialized to a given role. I also arm all three of my Ravagers with Disintegrators and use them as anti-MEQ or anti-Terminator gunboats, leaving the anti-tank to the rest of my army. That said, I run Raiders over Venoms for the Dark Lances and transport capacity.

As to Troops squads, all of which are always mounted in Raiders, I run a three or four squads of Warriors, two armed with a Blaster and Splinter Cannon, and the other one or two with a Blaster and Dark Lance. I occasionally run a unit of 8 or 9 Wracks and arm one with a hexrifle. This squad has the purpose of either acting as a speed bump to slow a suitable foe at a critical time or to grab an objective and hopefully weather a turn of shooting. The hexrifle is relatively useless, although when it does work it is spectacular, but it is my fun little flourish.

My HQ as you have figured out from my Troops is a Haemonculus. He is also my only HQ choice and just as an additional flourish I give him a hexrifle as well. If I have spare points that cannot be put to better use elsewhere, I give him something extra, although the Cruicible of Malediction, despite not being that terribly effective in practice, does seem to cause irrational fear in quite a few people, so it is something I often take if the points permit.

I like Reavers a lot. I take mine in multiples of three and give them as many Heat Lances as allowed. Usually I have two or three squads of three, but on occasion I'll have a squad of three and a squad of six. If I take the six pack, I also give them two Cluster Caltrops. The reason for this is that they almost always have to turboboost to get into position and the large number of potential hits means I can try to pile on a couple of wounds or more to special groups in a squad I pass over. Once in position the ability to move 12", shoot, and then move 6" is great. If you notice at how people build GW ruins, they often have large LoS blocking sections on the buildings, which means Reavers can jump in and out of cover, using their skilled riders to stay alive, popping shots into the enemy with impunity.

My Elites are Raider borne Trueborn. I take four of them with Blasters and a Dracon with a Blast Pistol and go Terminator hunting or tank busting. This is also where my Haemonculus goes. Now if I take multiple units of Trueborn, I might cut the Dracon from one or all of them, but they stay in the Raiders as I want that Dark Lance, although I have considered that if I really need the points, a Venom might suffice on four strong Trueborn squads.

As for the other choices I do not normally run, I do not discount them as useless, but instead I thought it better to review what I use most effectively. I might do a part II where I review the others but I lack the time to get to them now.

Overall, my list rarely ever loses and in many cases tables my foe. Currently my record is a Turn 2 tabling of Grey Knights, but I hope to beat that in the future, although I have tied it a couple of times. The army in general requires that you know what you are looking at across the table as you want to stack the odds as heavily in your favor as possible at all times since you cannot survive an even points exchange in most cases. With the speed and firepower at your disposal, this should be something you can regularly achieve. Starting out, you will lose far more than you will win and often badly. Persevere, you will get the feel for the army and once you do, woe be to your foes.

IcedAnimals
24-09-2011, 18:16
I think you have been more overwhelmed by the hobby. Over the last week or so you have made new threads on nearly every army, from space wolves and blood angels to necrons and now dark eldar.

I recommend you go into a hobby shop and watch a few games. Or jump on vassal 40k and play a couple. But you should probably stop making a new thread every other day on whatever army the dart landed on. Try to keep it in a single thread.

Sami
24-09-2011, 18:38
The DE tactica thread is your friend. Some of the advise has changed over the past year or so as we've gotten used to the army, but most if it is golden. Probably best if you ignore the summaries on the first page as they're horribly out of date :)

Dexter099
25-09-2011, 00:17
I very much enjoy the Dark eldar mystique and style of the models and the army, but when i look at all the different unit combinations and vast amounts of options i get confused.

Can anyone explain to me the Dark Eldar army style and how to use them in broad terms? (basically how to play with them) and maybe some of the main units that are universally loved and used by most DE players and maybe some units to stay away from? (just trying to get a grasp on the army)


Also what advice would you give someone wanting to start up a dark eldar army, who is somewhat new to 40k and has never used to Dark elves in WHF?

thanks

Take lots of cheap wych and warrior squads on raiders, with maybe a wrack squad or so. Bring jetbikes and a ravager (+ warrior squad on foot) for anti-tank and take another haemi for a webway portal, a cronos, and a talos.