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Inquisitor Kallus
23-09-2011, 23:42
After reading a number of posts about one off games, project X's and Games Workshop stores I had a bit of a thought. Forgeworld is a 'seperate company' that resides in GW HQ which means they can float ideas about with the Citadel Design team if needed etc. Specialist Games is now pretty much available through order point/net only. What if GW set up a board game/specialist game division. After seeing the success of Space Hulk, the apparent popularity of Dreadfleet and indeed the small time love for SGs all round could it potentially work?

With all the success of smaller companies who have basically taken a lot of SG ideas and run with them, would a similarly sized company with GWs backing and indeed IP have the potential to be a hit?

Forgeworld themselves are an indication of success. They don't have stores to worry about and have basically piggybacked on GWs success and bring something extra along that is still of a high quality and very much in demand. Could another company then sell its product to other outlets, essentially making it more open to the wider public. A lot of people have said about selling Dreadfleet/Space Hulk in other stores. Would this hurt or help the hobby as a whole? The whole boardgame thing is much more approachable from the general public point of view.

Also would Specialist Games be best served being brough back on a smaller scale or should it just be scrapped altogether?

Lets hear what you guys think

Korraz
24-09-2011, 00:34
Forgeworld is not a separate company.
Dreadfleet is only sold in GW stores because they want people to go to their stores.
This should also go to GW General.
On the SG matter I advise you to use the search function. We have been over this countless of times.

Chem-Dog
24-09-2011, 01:15
In short, it's the only way the non-core gmes are going to get the love and attention that they deserve.
Take Necromunda as an example (not least because it's the one I'm most familiar with).
In the state it's in at the moment it's like a classic car that now rusts in somebody's garage because they don't have the time or the money to restore it. So much of the game is missing and much of what's there is showing it's age.

A major professional overhaul is what's needed and the amount of work required to do that is way beyond what GW is able to divert from it's core concerns.But a smaller organisation could do it.
If what I understand about how FW works is true, much of their stuff is done by freelancers, applying this logic across to this hypothetical SG studio, we could see the old hands who've been responsible for initially crafting our beloved little games given the chance to refine, improve and expand upon them.
I mean who wouldn't love to see the Grand Dog return to the Underhive?


As this probably won't happen I'd at least like to re-new my call for Forgeworld to churn out a set for each of the Six Common houses of Hive Primus. They've shown what they can do making squads of Infantry with a limited set of body-parts and a selection of weapons, let's see the Resin-smiths go downtown!

Muddypaw
24-09-2011, 04:15
A sister to Forge World and Black Library dedicated to Specialist Games would be a fantastic idea. If they keep it to rulebooks and limited mini runs (maybe through Forge World) and didn't set their sights to high on things such as boxed sets, I think it could be a viable addition to the family.

Unlikely to happen, but with releases like Dread Fleet the spirit of SG is alive. I think those games are most likely to make a re-appearance in tha Dread Fleet format rather than in a sister company. One off 'Everything You Need in a Box'. Sells well, no continuied support needed. Everyones happy, or at least happier than if they were to fade completely.

Roguebaron
24-09-2011, 04:22
Forgeworld is not a separate company.
Dreadfleet is only sold in GW stores because they want people to go to their stores.
.
Fantasy Flight is offering dread fleet through their store as well, hopefully this means gw will let them produce expansions for it.

bluemage
24-09-2011, 04:23
Forge world created their own specialist game called autonatuica (spelling). It shows they're able to do them if they want.

Anyways if you really want forge world to update some specialist games or something sent them and email, the people working there are very nice and respond to requests and suggestions.

herbtarkel
24-09-2011, 05:07
Fantasy Flight is offering dread fleet through their store as well, hopefully this means gw will let them produce expansions for it.


I did not know that; that is very interesting. FFG really has taken a whole new exciting relationship with GW. Let's see what comes of that, eh?

Korraz
24-09-2011, 09:58
FW's game was called Aeronautica Imperialis. Dreadfleet has not the slightest correlation to SGs.
And once GW catches up to what FFG is actually doing, their Fiery Fist of Hobby-Justice will come down on them.

Aliarzathanil
24-09-2011, 10:22
Korraz, what do you mean exactly? I'm pretty sure GW knows what FFGs is doing with their license. Also, the search function would only link to old posts. Things change over the course of several years, especially opinions. Warseer vets need to stop it with the search tool. New threads are good. This sight has tactics threads that span multiple editions because new ones get shut down for redundancy, it's silly.

Korraz
24-09-2011, 10:40
FFG is going the same way as PP went. They are, albeit slowly, becoming a concurrence. Once they get relevant enough to appear on GWs screen, that will have been that for Dark Heresy.
And we HAVE been over SGs countless of times. Yabba and me alone ad three or four rounds of this. There are NO new things on this. There is NOTHING to gain out of a new thread about the same old thing. Just use the search function, that's why it's THERE.

RobPro
24-09-2011, 16:47
Maybe provide links instead of rage?

eldargal
24-09-2011, 16:51
Don't be ridiculous, GW scrupulously supervises what its licensees do, if you think FFG does anything without GW knowing about it you are deluding yourself.


FFG is going the same way as PP went. They are, albeit slowly, becoming a concurrence. Once they get relevant enough to appear on GWs screen, that will have been that for Dark Heresy.
And we HAVE been over SGs countless of times. Yabba and me alone ad three or four rounds of this. There are NO new things on this. There is NOTHING to gain out of a new thread about the same old thing. Just use the search function, that's why it's THERE.


I doubt SGs would make enough money to sustain a seperate division, as much as I love them they were never particularly successful.

Inquisitor Kallus
24-09-2011, 18:52
FFG is going the same way as PP went. They are, albeit slowly, becoming a concurrence. Once they get relevant enough to appear on GWs screen, that will have been that for Dark Heresy.
And we HAVE been over SGs countless of times. Yabba and me alone ad three or four rounds of this. There are NO new things on this. There is NOTHING to gain out of a new thread about the same old thing. Just use the search function, that's why it's THERE.

Then why dont you leave? That or contribute like others have. Games Workshop as a company have changed a lot over the years, I was there for 8, and they always look at different options. I know this after talking to some of the people at H/O. They were never going to advertise, but did in America on a small way on local TV. There was a time when they werent going to do 'board games' again.... .

FFG are relevant, they are producing so much quality RPG background for 40K its staggering. It isnt affecting GW with regards to miniatures and allows them to reach a wider audience.

Since when did you ever have any experience in the company? To be honest youre just some other guy on here... . Yabbadabba on the other hand has a lot of experience, but even now things are changing, and indeed have changed. No one can give 100% assurance that SG will not start up again in a more suported or different way. The company has been seeking to remove its debt for a number of years and I believe it is or is nearly gone. They can look at their business and see what things may or may not work when in a better position.

herbtarkel
24-09-2011, 19:00
Don't be ridiculous, GW scrupulously supervises what its licensees do, if you think FFG does anything without GW knowing about it you are deluding yourself.


No kidding, I think that sums up every thing required to end the fiery fist of hobby justice train of thought.

Everything FFG does is with the explicit approval GW and that's that. So does Relic. And anyone else having a licence from the fine folks at GW.

What that has to do with PP, I have no idea.


FFG is going the same way as PP went. They are, albeit slowly, becoming a concurrence. Once they get relevant enough to appear on GWs screen, that will have been that for Dark Heresy.
And we HAVE been over SGs countless of times. Yabba and me alone ad three or four rounds of this. There are NO new things on this. There is NOTHING to gain out of a new thread about the same old thing. Just use the search function, that's why it's THERE.

Regarding the search function, I believe it is a well-known fact that the Warseer Search doesn't work, and hasn't for quite some time. Not much point in searching.

Korraz
24-09-2011, 19:03
Don't be ridiculous, GW scrupulously supervises what its licensees do, if you think FFG does anything without GW knowing about it you are deluding yourself.


GWs knows what they are doing, but they aren't perceiving things like Dust Tactics as concurrence, yet. Once FFG hits that point, though...


Then why dont you leave? That or contribute like others have. Games Workshop as a company have changed a lot over the years, I was there for 8, and they always look at different options. I know this after talking to some of the people at H/O. They were never going to advertise, but did in America on a small way on local TV. There was a time when they werent going to do 'board games' again.... .

FFG are relevant, they are producing so much quality RPG background for 40K its staggering. It isnt affecting GW with regards to miniatures and allows them to reach a wider audience.

Since when did you ever have any experience in the company? To be honest youre just some other guy on here... . Yabbadabba on the other hand has a lot of experience, but even now things are changing, and indeed have changed. No one can give 100% assurance that SG will not start up again in a more suported or different way. The company has been seeking to remove its debt for a number of years and I believe it is or is nearly gone. They can look at their business and see what things may or may not work when in a better position.

You might as well quote The Oirigin of Species here, since I can't see a bigger correlation to my post than to Darwin's work. Did you even read it? It doesn't seem like it. Or maybe you had a hard time to comprehend it, so I'll repeat it:
"We had this topic. Lots of times. It always walks in the same circle. Use the search."

herbtarkel
24-09-2011, 19:07
GWs knows what they are doing, but they aren't perceiving things like Dust Tactics as concurrence, yet. Once FFG hits that point, though...


Dust Tactics? Has nothing to do with GW. You might as well say that Wings of War or any of the other FFG games are going to threaten GW, cause them to pull their licence, and sit in the corner with all their toys. Can't see it. At all.

Korraz
24-09-2011, 19:08
Sure, it's only natural for a charity organization to let a rival make money with their IP.

herbtarkel
24-09-2011, 19:10
Sure, it's only natural for a charity organization to let a rival make money with their IP.

Well, except for licensing agreements. Those, naturally, make the charity organization a tremendous amount of money from the rival using their IP, with permission. There's that.

Inquisitor Kallus
24-09-2011, 19:15
GWs knows what they are doing, but they aren't perceiving things like Dust Tactics as concurrence, yet. Once FFG hits that point, though...



You might as well quote The Oirigin of Species here, since I can't see a bigger correlation to my post than to Darwin's work. Did you even read it? It doesn't seem like it. Or maybe you had a hard time to comprehend it, so I'll repeat it:
"We had this topic. Lots of times. It always walks in the same circle. Use the search."

I did read it, dont try to act clever, it doesn't suit..

Chem-Dog
24-09-2011, 19:15
Don't be ridiculous, GW scrupulously supervises what its licensees do, if you think FFG does anything without GW knowing about it you are deluding yourself.

QFT



I doubt SGs would make enough money to sustain a seperate division, as much as I love them they were never particularly successful.

None of them really got a look in past their initial release and, perhaps, a resurgence to coincide with a supplement and GW has been rather reticent, for various reasons, to pump any time or effort into them since.

herbtarkel
24-09-2011, 19:17
QFT
None of them really got a look in past their initial release and, perhaps, a resurgence to coincide with a supplement and GW has been rather reticent, for various reasons, to pump any time or effort into them since.

They did have a bit of a renaissance when Jervis was running SG as a viable arm of GW, but that only lasted for maybe, what, 2 years? 3, at most? Those were good years for SG really. But I think it must have been overwhelming for even Jervis, to tackle reviving all the games that SG had in the library. Too bad really.

Korraz
24-09-2011, 19:17
I did read it, dont try to act clever, it doesn't suit..

Then why doesn't your post make sense at all? I wrote nothing about GW's policy or the chances of a new SG line.

Chem-Dog
24-09-2011, 20:04
They did have a bit of a renaissance when Jervis was running SG as a viable arm of GW, but that only lasted for maybe, what, 2 years? 3, at most? Those were good years for SG really. But I think it must have been overwhelming for even Jervis, to tackle reviving all the games that SG had in the library. Too bad really.

Oh yeah, All props for JJ for giving it a go. But I think his intrepid efforts were largely neutralised by big papa GW's indifference (least, that's the impression I've been left with).

In that era Necromunda got a redux rulebook and several different periodicals expanding the game (sometimes wothy of an entire expansion kit in other, better times) but the models were few and far between, we got a handful of hired guns/special characters that were largely things that didn't make the cut for other games, and that's fair enough. When we DID get new models they were dubious replacements for already exisiting ranges (See Orlocks, Goliaths, Ratskins and Redemptionists) and I don't think I'm being unfair to the guys who sculpted them when I say they lacked some of the sparkle that the models they replaced had, point in fact, nobody's dared supercede the fantastic Escher Sculpts that Jes Goodwin did.

Gorkamorka is another one. That game could have been given a blinding new kiss of life by the massive wave of Ork Plastics that have been released since the game hit the shelves. Ork Trukks, Boyz, Bikers, Nobs, Grotz, Virtually everything you'd need to play Gorka now available in easy to aquire main line Ork products. In many ways a lot easier to support than Necromunda ever was, but nothing.

Scaryscarymushroom
24-09-2011, 20:30
I'd just like to contribute my two cents.

Fantasy Flight games has produced or will produce...

Chaos Marauders
Space Hulk: Death Angel
Black Crusade (+collector's edition)
Deathwatch (+collector's edition)
Rogue Trader
Dark Heresy
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
Space Hulk: Death Angel expansion packs
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Toolkit
Warhammer Invasion: The card game
Chaos in the Old World
Chaos in the Old World: Horned Rat expansion
Horus Heresy
Fury of Dracula
Warrior Knights
Blood Bowl: Team manager

And that's only the ones that I know have a direct relation to what games workshop has done.

I would be perfectly happy to see Fantasy Flight Games develop more Games Workshop related material, and I think BOTH companies will benefit from the sales of said games; not just Fantasy Flight. It's sad to see specialist games going away, but good that there is some new stuff out there related to the IP.

Inquisitor Kallus
24-09-2011, 20:34
Yeah, there is a funny thing about Specialist Games. There are a number of people who play them that have left the core games of WFB and 40k behind as a whole. For whatever reason they left they still enjoy SGs of certain types. Usually with 40k or WFB you have to collect a fairly decent sized army, which requires a fairly large investment. This sometimes puts people off, and some just like playing smaller or indee even different types of games.

Variety is a huge thing, if there isnt enough people get bored and do other things with their time, maybe more computer games, other hobbies or look at different wargames to get a sense of satisfaction. I think the expanded worlds that the SGs and their like gave kept people involved in the hobby for longer as the worlds/universes seem less one dimensional. Heck, im not much of an RPG'er at all but have bought many of the FFG books.

Korraz
24-09-2011, 21:00
Yeah, there is a funny thing about Specialist Games. There are a number of people who play them that have left the core games of WFB and 40k behind as a whole. For whatever reason they left they still enjoy SGs of certain types.

Because SGs usually do everything those people would want from the main games, i.e.:
Good, balanced rules
Same update-stage for every army
Tactical and characterful gameplay
(Decent model count)

Inquisitor Kallus
24-09-2011, 21:09
Those arent the only reasons, sometimes people just get bored of WFB and 40k, play something else, then come back. Those are valid reasons but not the only ones. Even though I find their rules well done, thats not the reason I play them, and the same goes for 40k (and its not as balanced rules)

Eddie Chaos
24-09-2011, 22:19
It would be very cool if Forge world took Necromunda under its wing. They could print a new edition of the rules then add to them in future Imperial Armour books like they do with Apocalypse and Battlefleet.

It would be a major commitment though as they would have to sculpt at least 5 different gangs as a starting point.

Inquisitor Kallus
24-09-2011, 22:28
Would they have to? or could they not just do 2, then release others further down the line? They could even do conversion kits for things like Adeptus Arbites.

Another thing thats a possibility is making some of the FFG characters and creatures. There is a whole raft of things FW can do, maybe with them doing miniatures and another section working on the games themselves.

Chem-Dog
24-09-2011, 23:23
It would be very cool if Forge world took Necromunda under its wing. They could print a new edition of the rules then add to them in future Imperial Armour books like they do with Apocalypse and Battlefleet.

It would be a major commitment though as they would have to sculpt at least 5 different gangs as a starting point.

I don't think it'd be as major as all that. If we were to say go the whole hog and get each of the six houses what does that really equate to?

Per house:-
Half a dozen (or thereabouts) heads.
A couple of torsos.
A couple of legs.
Half a dozen arm sets.
Some accessories.

Keep the weapons separate from the arms and some universal weapon kits can service each Gang type just as well. With vitrually no additional effort the booster weapons and accessories kits from exisiting IG kits can be added to them for more variation to a Gang's armoury.
Kreig Special weaps/Lasguns (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/DEATH-KORPS-OF-KRIEG-WEAPONS-SET.html) Kreig Pistols n Swords (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/DEATH-KORPS-OF-KRIEG-COMMAND-UPGRADE-SET.html) Elysian special weaps/Lasguns (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/ELYSIAN-WEAPON-PACK.html) and the Chaos Militia Weapons (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/RENEGADE-MILITIA-WEAPON-ARMS.html) and Assault (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/RENEGADE-MILITIA-ICONS-AND-ASSAULT-WEAPONS.html) booster packs, to name but a few.
Then, looking at the Babdad releases, the variation of Bolters, Special Weapons kit, Heavy weapons kit, Character upgrade kit and the new boarding equipment stuff, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine a selection of specialist pieces of equipment (maybe Heavy/Leader sets) produced in a similar way.

Of course, I have no real inkling as to how much time, for example, the Elysian squad or one of the Kreig squads took for their respective sculptor(s) to produce, but the design of the gangs is all there and there wouldn't need to be all that much in each set, enough bits to make six complete models.


Would they have to? or could they not just do 2, then release others further down the line? They could even do conversion kits for things like Adeptus Arbites.

They could easily do them piecemeal, one at a time, look at the whole Necromunda range and imagine it as a single IG army (and you know there's be some people who'll use the models for that exact purpose) and apply that kind of release schedule to it. Doesn't sound too unpleasant does it?

Tay051173096
24-09-2011, 23:45
I may get shouted at for this...

I think that dreadfleet and space hulk are the New SG's, they add to the background, they are aimed more for the older player and their rules are unique to them.

It would not surprise me to see in the next 5 years to see either a BFG, necromunda or mordheim box set with sets of rules and mini's, maybe smaller boxes fo a house or war-band.

These things just seem very popular and A) get money B)get people interested.

Chem-Dog
25-09-2011, 00:22
It would not surprise me to see in the next 5 years to see either a BFG, necromunda or mordheim box set with sets of rules and mini's, maybe smaller boxes fo a house or war-band.

These things just seem very popular and A) get money B)get people interested.

I see where you're coming from, but neither Dreadfleet or Space hulk are ever going to see any expansion and for the SG's that'd be criminal. Apply the logic down the line and Necromunda becomes a grudge match between two gangs with 20 or so named characters leaping around a battlefield. either concentrating solely on two houses (to the exclusion of eight other decent factions) or having some weird sort of weird amalgamated alliances. It'd make me sad to see Necro go this way.

ehlijen
25-09-2011, 01:39
GWs knows what they are doing, but they aren't perceiving things like Dust Tactics as concurrence, yet.

To clear up some possible confusion:

Korraz, I think you meant to say 'competition' (in german: Konkurrenz) and not concurrence (in german: Uebereinstimmung), yes?

If that is the case, I think at least part of this argument may be a result of that confusion. It's an easy mistake for a german speaker to make (usually latin derived words are the same in german and english) but a hard one for an english speaker to spot.

herbtarkel
25-09-2011, 02:30
To clear up some possible confusion:

Korraz, I think you meant to say 'competition' (in german: Konkurrenz) and not concurrence (in german: Uebereinstimmung), yes?

If that is the case, I think at least part of this argument may be a result of that confusion. It's an easy mistake for a german speaker to make (usually latin derived words are the same in german and english) but a hard one for an english speaker to spot.

If that's the case, then that makes so much more sense! I mean it - I took concurrence to mean competition. Wait! I had it right the first time. :skull:

ehlijen
25-09-2011, 03:08
If nothing else, now it won't confuse anyone else.

Codsticker
25-09-2011, 17:49
As this thread is not 40K specific I have moved it to GW General Discussion.

Codsticker

The Warseer Mod Squad

blongbling
26-09-2011, 08:32
I do think that the whole SG think is a bit of a red herring. When these games were released they were seen as a short run game designed to fill the year in-between the big game launches, nothing more.

Codsticker
26-09-2011, 15:53
If that is the case, it makes sense that we don't see steady development of similar new games or expansion of the existing ones.

Inquisitor Kallus
26-09-2011, 15:59
Epic in all its forms ran for quite a while and at the time was considered a core game. The problem with it which has been discussed before is that from a hobby point of view it lacks what 40k and WFB bring to the table. Stunning models, huge variety (or the potential with easy conversions/kitbashing), and the sight of an epic army pales beside that of a finished 40k/WFB army.

eldargal
26-09-2011, 16:05
I never liked Epic for that reason, 40k models are beautiful, most of the epic range were barely recognisable blobs in my opinion. Don't miss it at all, I do feel sorry for people who do though. I could see a one off SH/DF style box along the lines of Adeptus Titanicus though, bigger models, no blobby infantry and itty bitty blobby vehicles.

Inquisitor Kallus
26-09-2011, 16:29
Yes, the design aesthetic was completely different, with most models being characteurish markers compared to their 40k equivalents. A lot of the plastics were pretty old school, though today I think they could do a much better job. The thing is, do people really want hyper detail at that scale when they can get it from 40k/WFB.

I loved Epic/SM myself, though it was less about the models and more about the variety of things that weren't available at the time for 40k and the huge scale of the wars which really felt epic. It did a lot to flesh out the 40k universe from a war standpoint and the game itself especially now as opposed to SM, is a dream to play.

Unlike 40k it actually does use strategy, and it does a great job at giving you the feeling of being in charge of a real war. Thats why I think people like it. It is also pretty well balanced and relies less on gimmicks and more on the skill of the players involved. That said I havent played it for a while, and I have a fairly substantial Epic Eldar army waiting for me to build and paint it. Curses, and I was working on my Chaos 40k too......

yabbadabba
26-09-2011, 16:36
I think that dreadfleet and space hulk are the New SG's, they add to the background, they are aimed more for the older player and their rules are unique to them. You are closer to the truth than I think many would realise. While Epic and Blood Bowl are anomalies in many respects, Necromunday, Mordheim, Inquisitor, Gorkamorka and Battlefleet Gothic were meant to be nothing more than a slice of of the worlds they were derived from; dipping your toe into something a little more colourful but short termed. As Blongbling says:
I do think that the whole SG think is a bit of a red herring. When these games were released they were seen as a short run game designed to fill the year in-between the big game launches, nothing more. although I also won't rule out someone in the studio just having a good fun idea and runnign with it.

Still the SG argument has been done to death now.

For me FW has always seemed like the petulant rebellious child of GW. Now however, they fit the role that SGs were originally used for far more closely to GWs core strategy; FW is for Vets not for the main demographic. The models, rules etc require a sense of maturity and income that only veteran gamers can achieve and sustain while still keeping tied to the core products.

I do really think that GW needs a pathfinder product out in the supermarkets but the computer gaming angle is the current preferred choice. But a prep board game product aimed at maybe 10+ might be ideal but the caveat to this is GW couldn't do it. They don't have the expertise, can't afford the expertise, don't have the sales connections and don't want to end up dancing to the tune of a Tesco or Walmart. And this might be why they avoid that market altogether.

Inquisitor Kallus
26-09-2011, 16:42
True. It is unfortunate that the only game they ever produced (so far) was Aeronautica Imperialis. I do like that game however, but like a lot of the SGs, although it is well done it is not hugely popular and therefore support for it has dwindled to very little. It also suffers from the same 'hobby' problem as Epic but is a lot cheaper to get into.

Lord_Squinty
26-09-2011, 18:19
Unlikely to happen, but with releases like Dread Fleet the spirit of SG is alive. I think those games are most likely to make a re-appearance in tha Dread Fleet format rather than in a sister company. One off 'Everything You Need in a Box'. Sells well, no continuied support needed. Everyones happy, or at least happier than if they were to fade completely.

Not gonna happen - Jervis stated quite matter-of-factly at the seminars yesterday that SG's were NOT gonna be re-done as one shot games.
His reasoning was that he wanted to "look forward, not backward" with respects to the one off box games.

Inquisitor Kallus
26-09-2011, 18:33
Sweet. That could be taken as awesome news...

SunTzu
26-09-2011, 18:57
Aeronautica Imperialis. ... although it is well done it is not hugely popular and therefore support for it has dwindled to very little.

I think it's not hugely popular because it's an awful, awful game. Disassociated game mechanics, something like 16 pages of rules in a 40 book, the third dimension barely represented and then only in a fiddly, inconvenient way... and then ultimately it's a game of who can roll the most 6s, or sometimes 5+.

I bought a whole bunch of aircraft and both rulebooks, played one game and put the lot on eBay. The second-least-enjoyable game I've ever played, after Bommaz Over Da Sulpha River.

shelfunit.
26-09-2011, 19:16
FW is for Vets not for the main demographic. The models, rules etc require a sense of maturity and income that only veteran gamers can achieve and sustain while still keeping tied to the core products.


Whilst I agree with the idea here Yabba, the fact is that really only in the UK are FW prices more expensive than the core GW, and in places like Australia the US and mainland Europe (basically everywhere but the UK) FW are getting to be the more affordable option, especially on a price : quality basis.

herbtarkel
27-09-2011, 03:50
Whilst I agree with the idea here Yabba, the fact is that really only in the UK are FW prices more expensive than the core GW, and in places like Australia the US and mainland Europe (basically everywhere but the UK) FW are getting to be the more affordable option, especially on a price : quality basis.


I Agree too. FW is nearly the same price as anything off the shelf from GW. Krieg, Elysians, whatever - they all could make an appearance in a regular army, especially since the old "was 20 figures, now 10, and MORE expensive" scam of the last iteration of the Guard. SCAM!

ForgottenLore
27-09-2011, 04:03
FW is nearly the same price as anything off the shelf from GW. Krieg, Elysians, whatever

That's just really not true. Yeah, with conversion rates the way they are FW is cheaper in the US than it was, but it still isn't close to GW prices.

10 Kreig guardsmen convert to $56
10 Cadian guardsmen are $29

That's just under twice the price to get the FW stuff. I know the Tau battlesuits are similar.

So yeah, it is more affordable to get FW than it used to be, but GW proper is still significantly cheaper in the states.

Australia now, that may be a different story, I don't know.

herbtarkel
27-09-2011, 04:22
That's just really not true. Yeah, with conversion rates the way they are FW is cheaper in the US than it was, but it still isn't close to GW prices.

10 Kreig guardsmen convert to $56
10 Cadian guardsmen are $29

That's just under twice the price to get the FW stuff. I know the Tau battlesuits are similar.

So yeah, it is more affordable to get FW than it used to be, but GW proper is still significantly cheaper in the states.

Australia now, that may be a different story, I don't know.

I'm in Canada. So it's a lot closer than that, thanks to gw pricing incongruities.

That's what I based it off of.

Cadian box of 10 $CAD 34.75
FW Elysians x10 37 or $CAD 59

Sure they are more, but they are FW awesome troops and not much in my opinion. I know which ones I would want.

Same comparison with metals now:
GW Vostroyans $CAD 50

Just a bit more and you win the FW minis!

Hellebore
27-09-2011, 04:53
Wasn't Specialist Games the 'specialist games' division of GW that people are saying should be created? :confused:

If GW canned that, why would they make exactly the same thing again?

I think Dreadfleet is pretty cool, but IMO they compromised the premise too much in order to make it. As someone says above, I don't think a necromunda one off box game where two gangs of 10 unique models from 3 different houses fighting is particularly good.

It just smacks of contrivance to fit the medium, which virtually always makes the product suffer. And as these products are appealing to the creative market in the first place, that's shooting yourself in the foot.

Combing factions as a compromise might make sense to get it released at all, but it takes away from the concept of the game in the first place.

Hellebore

shelfunit.
27-09-2011, 07:37
Hmmm. I will "adjust" my original statement to leave out 40K troops - they actually still seem pretty high compared to core GW stock. Warhammer stuff however...

eldargal
27-09-2011, 07:44
I agree re Necromunda to an extent, however remember the original gam only came with plastic Orlocks and Goliaths. A new version could have the same, two gangs and some plastic/card terrain with rules to use the rest of the Necromunda gangs in the book. Finecast the Necromunda gangs perhaps, to make it cheaper for GW to stock them. Then let the LE Necromund sell out and hopefully spur purchases of other gangs. In other words I agree a Dreadfleet style thing with two gangs of mixed houses would be awful, I'm just saying I don't think it would have to be that way.

Having said this I've heard the schedule is Blood Bowl, them Warhammer Quest and very, very maybe Mordheim. Not a whisper of Necromunda. Not that this means much, it is just all that I've heard and spoken with some other rumourmonsgers to corroborate as much as possible.


Wasn't Specialist Games the 'specialist games' division of GW that people are saying should be created? :confused:

If GW canned that, why would they make exactly the same thing again?

I think Dreadfleet is pretty cool, but IMO they compromised the premise too much in order to make it. As someone says above, I don't think a necromunda one off box game where two gangs of 10 unique models from 3 different houses fighting is particularly good.

It just smacks of contrivance to fit the medium, which virtually always makes the product suffer. And as these products are appealing to the creative market in the first place, that's shooting yourself in the foot.

Combing factions as a compromise might make sense to get it released at all, but it takes away from the concept of the game in the first place.

Hellebore

Inquisitor Kallus
28-09-2011, 00:39
At the moment I believe the one-off games are literally there to make money quickly. I think, like others have said, they may also be testing the water again. The thing is GW knows that new releases appeal to people already in the hobby. This is what army new releases and one-off games are for. To keep things fresh. Thats why the game changes a lot, new releases and models etc as well as income.To someone whos new 'everything' is essentially a 'new release' to them.

FFG and the computer games are essentially the only two areas where GW is 'seen' outside of hobby stores etc. Although times and children have changed a great deal since we saw things like Heroquest and Space Crusade on our screens I feel this is something that GW really needs again, something with a similar effect, to draw people outside in.

I also think the company has become so structured that they've lost a lot of creativity and that was something GW was good at. I think the loss of a lot of the older staff at H/O will affect the companys future. There is an interview with Rick Priestly (http://talesfromthemaelstrom.blogspot.com/2011/09/rick-priestley-interview.html) which shows how the company changed, as well as parts of the hobby which people now think is the norm. If a division of designers/artists etc had more freedom in the things they produced do you think it would do well? I mean look at FW. I have no qualms about admitting that GW produce some fantastic models, its just what they do with them is the problem.

Steve54
01-10-2011, 08:52
Epic in all its forms ran for quite a while and at the time was considered a core game. The problem with it which has been discussed before is that from a hobby point of view it lacks what 40k and WFB bring to the table. Stunning models, huge variety (or the potential with easy conversions/kitbashing), and the sight of an epic army pales beside that of a finished 40k/WFB army.

Have you seen an epic army? Pretty much all your assumptions here are rubbish

eldargal
01-10-2011, 09:14
Not to answer for Inquisitor Kallus, but several of my brothers have huge Epic armies and despite being painted well they still look rubbish compared to their 40k armies.

Steve54
01-10-2011, 09:40
Well the best epic armies I've seen have looked just as good as the best 40k armies I've seen and when I've been to events the general standard of epic painting+converting puts 40k to shame.

Also 40k armies look ridiculous on the tabletop- massed ranks of infantry, super heavy tanks and even deathstrikes standing at point blank range.

Perhaps you should have a look round at more than just your brothers armies as there are techniques+methods of painting at 6mm scale whihc are very different to 28mm

Nat B
01-10-2011, 10:50
Well the best epic armies I've seen have looked just as good as the best 40k armies I've seen and when I've been to events the general standard of epic painting+converting puts 40k to shame.

Also 40k armies look ridiculous on the tabletop- massed ranks of infantry, super heavy tanks and even deathstrikes standing at point blank range.

Perhaps you should have a look round at more than just your brothers armies as there are techniques+methods of painting at 6mm scale whihc are very different to 28mm

I agree with this. If the only epic models you have seen were made by GW then you havent seen a truely awesome epic army. The quality of the epic communitys scratchbuilding puts every other 6mm manufacturer to shame.

yabbadabba
01-10-2011, 10:58
Sorry but this asthetic argument is moot, as it is entirely subjective. The long and short of it is that you can get very high quality and goddamn awful quality in both games. Turning it into some sort of face off doesn't work.

Nat B
01-10-2011, 11:06
In general yes, army asthetic is subjective. However, in my experiance the vast majority of 28mm gamers have never seen a good 6mm army and when shown one they are gobsmacked. The prevalance of the generally awful GW 6mm models tars the whole 6mm community with the same brush.

Steve54
01-10-2011, 11:15
Sorry but this asthetic argument is moot, as it is entirely subjective. The long and short of it is that you can get very high quality and goddamn awful quality in both games. Turning it into some sort of face off doesn't work.
Agreed, I was just responding to Eldargal and Inquisitor Kallus spouting the usual blinkered rubbish about epic models+painting

yabbadabba
01-10-2011, 11:18
In general yes, army asthetic is subjective. However, in my experiance the vast majority of 28mm gamers have never seen a good 6mm army and when shown one they are gobsmacked. The prevalance of the generally awful GW 6mm models tars the whole 6mm community with the same brush. Nat B the first thing to remember is that some of these 6mm models are older than some of GWs customers. If they were updated they would no doubt be of a much higher quality; yet the community and other manufacturers have moved on so its an unfair comparison. Secondly for some of the range I disagree with you and things like Ebay do as well. Again model design quality is highly subjective. I prefer some of the older, more brick like GW epic models whereas the newer metal Thunderhawks and others are truly fantastic. Finally we have to remember that a lot of the newer models were designed during breaks or by trainee sculpters. So all in all, not a great point on comparison.

Finally having judged at things like Golden Daemon qualifying rounds (back in the old days), as well as numerous painting competitions over the years the skills for both scales are entirely different. It doesn't matter who has seen what good armies, they are incomparable.

It is entirely subjective and a pointless comparison discussion.

Nat B
01-10-2011, 12:32
...some of these 6mm models are older than some of GWs customers. If they were updated they would no doubt be of a much higher quality; yet the community and other manufacturers have moved on so its an unfair comparison...

It is entirely subjective and a pointless comparison discussion.

That is exactly the point! It IS an unfair comparison, yet it is still made by the vast majority of 28mm gamers who havent seen a 6mm model that was sculpted inside the last 15-20years. Many people dismiss epic because they compare last months 40k release with something sculpted 20years ago. Epic models didnt stop evolving just because GW stopped releasing them.

This thread is about 'branching out' that is what the 6mm community did and we are constantly trying to open peoples eyes to that, but as always, gamers can be a stubborn lot ;)

eldargal
01-10-2011, 13:31
It is perfectly valid to say the Epic range isn't very good, the fact they stopped updating them is immaterial. Of course if they were done now they would be a lot better, (look at Dreadfleet, almost Warmaster/Epic scale and quite lovely) as it stands they are relatively uninspiring, in my opinion.

My brothers love Epic and lavished enormous amounts of time and skill painting them, it is condescending to declare that anyone who doesn't think 6mm armies are nice hasn't seen a well painted one. I have, I still don't find them impressive.

yabbadabba
01-10-2011, 16:02
Oh well another thread sinks into the mire....


Moving on. I heartily recommend people get into campaigns especially written and designed by themselves. Its a great way to really get to grips with the complexities of the game; it can test your mental resources far more than a tournament and it can give you some real insight into how the game and army book mechanics are designed to work allowing you to move comfortably into houserules.

eldargal
01-10-2011, 16:19
Sorry Yabbadabba.:(

I wholeheartedly agree, narrative campaigns are the bread and butter of my games club and I think we are all better for it. Really great fun when you combine, say, BFG, Planetstrike, 40k and Apocalypse (for skirmishes/major battles) and Cities of Death (occupation). You can even throw in AI for deciding air support if you have the rules and models.

Inquisitor Kallus
01-10-2011, 18:41
Agreed, I was just responding to Eldargal and Inquisitor Kallus spouting the usual blinkered rubbish about epic models+painting

Excuse yourself with your 'blinkered rubbish'. I have collected Epic for many years. I love the models. On the whole most people find them less inspiring.

@Yabba+Eldargal

Yes campaigns are amazing especially with multiple game types. Im currently working on my Chaos for 40k (Daemons, Traitor Guard and Khorne Legion Marines), BFG and Aeronautica. Wish I had some Chaos for Epic. After that its my Eldar (Biel-Tan) across every system

yabbadabba
01-10-2011, 18:50
Wish I had some Chaos for Epic. Lol if you have a very large some of money I could be tempted to sell you an army :D :D

Inquisitor Kallus
01-10-2011, 19:00
Aw, and with me not having a job......

Btw is it painted? By the gods I don't even know why i'm asking I have so much stuff as it is lol

yabbadabba
01-10-2011, 19:03
Aw, and with me not having a job......

Btw is it painted? By the gods I don't even know why i'm asking I have so much stuff as it is lol Hey mate we are all in the same boat. After 20 years of work getting nowhere I have gone back to Uni. So much stuff I can't buy....

Most of it is unpainted. I don't have as much plastic as I remembered, I do have a case load of metal daemons and must be .... 40-50 daemon engines of various sorts including 7 Khorne Lord of Battles. It was my first ever big army.

PANZERBUNNY
01-10-2011, 19:11
FFG is going the same way as PP went. They are, albeit slowly, becoming a concurrence. Once they get relevant enough to appear on GWs screen, that will have been that for Dark Heresy.
And we HAVE been over SGs countless of times. Yabba and me alone ad three or four rounds of this. There are NO new things on this. There is NOTHING to gain out of a new thread about the same old thing. Just use the search function, that's why it's THERE.


0_o

I wouldn't be lumping FFG in the same vein as a small game company who is riding off another companies IP without them knowing.

They are more than likely working together in a loose fashin and GW can't "come down" on FFG for anything since they essentially handed GW board game concepts over to that company.

PANZERBUNNY
01-10-2011, 19:15
Not to answer for Inquisitor Kallus, but several of my brothers have huge Epic armies and despite being painted well they still look rubbish compared to their 40k armies.

That's a problem with the painter.

It's easy to simply spray ad pray an epic army, but if you take the time to detail it they turn out amazing.

Some "men" don't see the value in putting that much effort into something so small.

Painting detail at 6mm will make you better at painting detail in 28mm. 28mm will seem like a vacation.

Inquisitor Kallus
01-10-2011, 20:13
Hey mate we are all in the same boat. After 20 years of work getting nowhere I have gone back to Uni. So much stuff I can't buy....

Most of it is unpainted. I don't have as much plastic as I remembered, I do have a case load of metal daemons and must be .... 40-50 daemon engines of various sorts including 7 Khorne Lord of Battles. It was my first ever big army.


Sweet, I may be interested at some later point in time. Got a Banelord?

Anyway on topic @ Panzer. I think it has less to do with a painters abilities and more to do with the models are substantially smaller and less imposing. Chris Blair, a friend and Golden Demon winner converted up and painted a stunning little detachment of Sisters of battle complete with a Callidus Assasin. Its very good and he painted and converted lots of details, but it pales against the rest of his stuff, and hes an amazing painter.

Westside
01-10-2011, 22:07
Comparing 6mm Epic scale to 28 mm 40k scale based on visual appeal is like comparing apples to oranges. Some like one, some like the other. Personally I think 28mm is good only for skirmish and dioramas, not wargames, but that's just my take.

I do find it funny that Jervis said GW won't revisit the SG games in one offs because GW wants to look forward and not back. Forge World seems to be doing plenty of looking back. As an Epic player I appreciate this because I already own many of FW's new releases in Epic scale.

Also, GW does still offer the Epic miniatures produced by SG/Fanatic under Jervis, most of the sculpts are quite nice, the price and the casting quality are what sometimes is questionable.

Spartan Games seems to be doing fine producing games at the smaller scales, I think GW/SG has lost this niche to Spartan Games, in part due to lack of promotion of SG's and lack of distribution (no independent retail, etc.) If you include Mordheim, and Necromunda one could almost say GW's lack of attention to these two low investment skirmish games has cost them sales to PP.

I believe the only reason GW has let Specialist languish isn't due to lack of sales or lack of interest. The more plausable reason GW intentionally stopped promoting these games is in large part because GW has a better profit margin with 40k/WHFB. They don't want the low profit margin games taking sales away from the cash cows. For better or worse GW is now losing business to PP's low investment skirmish games, and Spartan Games small scale wargames. Time will tell if GW responds to these market pressures, or continues on pushing expensive 28mm games and just looks forward to quick future revenue from the Hobbit movies.

Steve54
02-10-2011, 07:34
Sweet, I may be interested at some later point in time. Got a Banelord?

Anyway on topic @ Panzer. I think it has less to do with a painters abilities and more to do with the models are substantially smaller and less imposing. Chris Blair, a friend and Golden Demon winner converted up and painted a stunning little detachment of Sisters of battle complete with a Callidus Assasin. Its very good and he painted and converted lots of details, but it pales against the rest of his stuff, and hes an amazing painter.

Then he obviously isn't skilled/experienced at 6mm - take a look at Paul 'Tuffskull' Townsend a Golden Demon winner and ex-professional painter who understands painting 6mm or some of the Golem team.

Whether you prefer the aesthetic of 6 or 28mm is completely subjective but it is simply false to say 6mm can't be just as impressive or, indeed, just as oor.

2ndCompanyVeterans
02-10-2011, 08:37
Dreadfleet is only sold in GW stores because they want people to go to their stores.
This should also go to GW General.

In the UK it is sold by the independant stores is that an isolated thing to your area? It's was also in Wayland Games but I think he only had like 12 copies.

herbtarkel
02-10-2011, 17:29
That's a problem with the painter.

It's easy to simply spray ad pray an epic army, but if you take the time to detail it they turn out amazing.

Some "men" don't see the value in putting that much effort into something so small.

Painting detail at 6mm will make you better at painting detail in 28mm. 28mm will seem like a vacation.


This is exactly true. I used to paint for www.GHQmodels.com. - they would send me first casts (pretty, pretty first casts...) and then I would paint them and send them back. Sometimes they would send me back the originals or they would pay me in product - at an effective rate of $20 of product per hour spent painting.

You can do some amazing things in 6mm!


In the UK it is sold by the independant stores is that an isolated thing to your area? It's was also in Wayland Games but I think he only had like 12 copies.

No, Canadian shops have it too. My local had some. And they were told they could order more - obviously GW aren't selling it as fast as hoped.

Shyvax
03-10-2011, 01:27
I just go back to the SG theme...
GW is a business, we all know, and a business on the stock market. Which means that they have to report every year to businessmen that own the shares.
Those guys will put or "direct" the head of the company in a direction that will fit their goal.... make more money. And, those businessmen are no gamers like we are, they don't care whether we like 40K or SG. They look at what makes money, and then they ask the company to do more of the product that make the most money... 40K/space marine/etc..
This is why GW is spending the most of its energy in those game that we all know.
....but GW is also a "niche" market, and the best in their niche. They know the gamers, so when they can they try to release something special. like SH or DF for example.
This is just what I think, this is not based on fact, it is just my opinion.
As much as I love SG, I think it doesn't make enough money, therefore why should they spend a lot a human ressource in creating a product that doesn't earn as much money as 40K lets say?
now regarding the argument "SG doesn't make you buy a lot of mini".... well, once again I can just speak for miself, but I have been in the hobby for 20 years, and since the very beginning, most of my money always has been spent on gangs for necro, team for bb, bought every single SG boxed game ever released, and I still spend a lot of money every month on ebay in order to complete my collection. And ebay.. can be quite expensive sometimes, way more than a box game or an army pack...
I believe than SG future would lie in between GW to release the core box game as a "one off" and a FW like to keep producing characters/monsters, extensions and buildings for those games.
Because FW is based on a very small team, and mainly external workers, they are very flexible, and do not have to support the cost of a big facility would have.
ps: english isn't my first language, so hope you will excuse my wording please.
ps2: I would like to write to GW to talk about SG, do you know any email I could send it to?

Inquisitor Kallus
10-10-2011, 01:22
You should be able to find it on their home page, down the bottom on the right should be a contact link.

BFalcon
15-10-2011, 03:43
Speaking for myself, I jumped into epic with AT and SM(1st ed) and still think that it is the most logical scale for british wargamers for holding large battles.

The vast majority of brits live in smaller houses or flats and being able to find an 8x6 table just isn't going to happen most times, so limiting games to clubs and the like. Being able to find a 3x3 or 4x4 table is far more likely and the fact that games like Battletech are still around, some 30 years later, are testament to their appeal. Being able to look down at hordes of vehicles, infantry and titans is also something of a rush... the Apocalypse rules looked interesting, but there's no way I could get hold of a table large enough to hold such a game around here, so smaller games are all I could ever do.

Personally, I think that one reason they stopped supporting epic was that they could not use material costs as an excuse any more and another may be the lack of willing sculpters (they probably want to sculpt cool stuff like new dreadnoughts and creatures in "normal" scale).

I, personally, mourn the loss of epic as a viable system (due to lack of decent models more than anything), just as I prepare to do for Blood Bowl (who also, in some cases, have problems with decent minis or missing minis - although it's only just starting to take effect I think, there).

Mind you, I'm no stranger to abandoned games - I've got Dark Future here too...

lbecks
15-10-2011, 23:03
I definitely feel like Specialist Games should be separated into it's own operating structure (writers, designers, website) like FW. Even have Specialist Hobby Tools stuff. It interests me that entire companies are popping up in Specialist Games territory like Spartan Games or Army Painter which is doing something GW abandoned. If they can be profitable how come GW can't?

IJW
15-10-2011, 23:59
It's not about whether they are profitable but about how profitable.

If 50k in staff and other costs spent on specialist games nets GW 10k in profits but the same 50k spent on a core game nets 30-40k in profits then the money will be spent on the core games.

It's all about return on investment (RoI).

Spectrar Ghost
16-10-2011, 01:36
It's all about return on investment (RoI).

...For GW. Enough others have commented on SG as low investment/intro games or ways to keep players from straying from the GW fold that I won't repeat them. Suffice to say the value SG brought to the company was not just to the profit line.

lbecks
16-10-2011, 01:49
It's not about whether they are profitable but about how profitable.

If 50k in staff and other costs spent on specialist games nets GW 10k in profits but the same 50k spent on a core game nets 30-40k in profits then the money will be spent on the core games.

It's all about return on investment (RoI).

If a separate division can maintain profitability on its own then it deserves to exist. The very existence of FW makes me think that. And the fact that certain consumers are charged more to subsidize stores they don't use also makes me think GW isn't all about RoI with their strange business plans.

yabbadabba
16-10-2011, 22:48
Suffice to say the value SG brought to the company was not just to the profit line. Absolutely, but what you can justify in a non-plc business gets harder in a plc without data to back it up. When you add in internal politics and GWs growing distance between the higher management and the frontline/veteran market then SGs were marked.

And the fact that certain consumers are charged more to subsidize stores they don't use also makes me think GW isn't all about RoI with their strange business plans. What a company does with its money and structure is their business, the taxman and the shareholders where appropriate. GW is no different to other businesses in this regard. As the customer, if you want the product, you dance the tune - its your choice.

lbecks
16-10-2011, 23:00
What a company does with its money and structure is their business, the taxman and the shareholders where appropriate. GW is no different to other businesses in this regard. As the customer, if you want the product, you dance the tune - its your choice.

People like GW enough to say on these boards and even write letters to them "hey GW, you're not doing something smart." They should be happy that their fans/customers are passionate enough to do that. After all it's their money, but it comes from their customers pockets. If they want more of it they should consider the people who buy their products. Name a company that does well that doesn't listen to their customers or consider them? That just says take what we give you and that's it even if we want to bend you over and treat you unfairly? McDonald's, awful as they are, large as they are, listens to people who don't even eat there. If GW want us and them to have a blase attitude about what they do or not do and what we do or not do then no one is going to be happy. The foresight and innovation from GW as an industry leader mostly comes from the creative parts of the company. Plastic kits that are super modular with a lot of parts? Those are incredible. Having a dedicated painting team to showcase your sculptor's work? Awesome mini porn. Having a full time painting and sculpting team at all? Very nice! Trying to fix the paint line with foundations and new washes? I like it but not for that price. But business decisions? Dubious. Would anyone care it Mark Wells or Tom Kirby disappeared tomorrow? I'd be very sad and heartbroken if Jes Goodwin disappeared tomorrow. If the Perry Brothers were no longer around. People were very sad when Steve Jobs passed away. But Mark Wells and Tom Kirby. Meh.

yabbadabba
16-10-2011, 23:25
People like GW enough to say on these boards and even write letters to them "hey GW, you're not doing something smart." They should be happy that their fans/customers are passionate enough to do that. I'm sure they are. Whether those letters or posts on here are actually any good, considering how little people actually know about GWs internal workings, is another matter entirely.

After all it's their money, but it comes from their customers pockets. If they want more of it they should consider the people who buy their products. If they want us and them to have a blase attitude about what they do or not do and what we do or not do then no one is going to be happy. Really? Hmm Tesco's customers are happy and Tesco is a far, far worse company than GW. Asda's customers are happy and Walmart taught Tesco how to do business - and still makes Tesco look like a corner shop run by a charity. I could go on.

Its a romantic p.o.v. you have there Ibecks and I don't see how it fits into reality.

lbecks
17-10-2011, 00:07
I'm sure they are. Whether those letters or posts on here are actually any good, considering how little people actually know about GWs internal workings, is another matter entirely.
Really? Hmm Tesco's customers are happy and Tesco is a far, far worse company than GW. Asda's customers are happy and Walmart taught Tesco how to do business - and still makes Tesco look like a corner shop run by a charity. I could go on.

Its a romantic p.o.v. you have there Ibecks and I don't see how it fits into reality.

Maybe that's just the reality for British people. I have no idea what complaints there are about Tesco or how they respond to them. I live in the US, so I do know the complaints about WalMart. But there are some pretty decent success stories from companies over here that captured entire markets through customer feedback and being wise about what works and doesn't.
I'm a big fan of MMA and the UFC. They were bought around 2000 for a relatively low price because they weren't seen as a good investment. They're a complete success now. I was a fan in 2000 and a fan now. In fact my period of being both a fan/customer of MMA and Miniatures have existed along the same timeline. But the industry leader in one has successfully branched out globally, has lucrative television (support) deals, listens to customers, has constant feedback from their President to customers, embraced technology to help promote their product as far and wide as possible, and is fairly transparent concerning news. The other is still trying to open a bunch of stores that need to subsidized and gets mad that they sell their own products at 50% below retail to independent stockists.

So no, I don't think I have a romantic view about anything. There are some companies headed by smart people, with forward thinking, who value those who give them money, and are appreciated by people who do give them money. And then there are companies who don't. To say that the latter is the only kind that exist or can exist is a twisted view about how successful companies actually operate.

yabbadabba
17-10-2011, 09:07
Maybe that's just the reality for British people. I have no idea what complaints there are about Tesco or how they respond to them. I live in the US, so I do know the complaints about WalMart. But there are some pretty decent success stories from companies over here that captured entire markets through customer feedback and being wise about what works and doesn't. And? That doesn't exactly counter my point does it? If anything some of the worst abusing corporations are based, or have been grown, in the US. Even the US political mentality has a similar approach to its foreign policy and empire building - so the US environment is also not a good example. The long and short of it is, yes, some business models work well with responding directly to customer feedback. Some are better at sales analysis and marketing. Some are better at selling loads of stuff.

I'm a big fan of MMA and the UFC. They were bought around 2000 for a relatively low price because they weren't seen as a good investment. They're a complete success now. I was a fan in 2000 and a fan now. In fact my period of being both a fan/customer of MMA and Miniatures have existed along the same timeline. But the industry leader in one has successfully branched out globally, has lucrative television (support) deals, listens to customers, has constant feedback from their President to customers, embraced technology to help promote their product as far and wide as possible, and is fairly transparent concerning news. The other is still trying to open a bunch of stores that need to subsidized and gets mad that they sell their own products at 50% below retail to independent stockists. *sigh* well done - those last lines are particularly insightful. MMA and GW are incomparable, so its not a very good example. Its this same old argument about the retail business which, for my money, has not been proved either way yet. What is fact is that GW would never have got to the size it is today without the retail business, arguably would never have had the resource to develop itself as it has done and this is born out by the rest of the market; some great products, a fair amount of inconsistency and turnovers that are tiny compred to GW and nothing like the market penetration. The US is also a very different market and as I have said elsewhere GW's retail programme over there is the wrong way to go. They have even had US "specialists" (as well as UK ones) mess up their US trade business as well. GW and the US have never been a happy pairing.

So no, I don't think I have a romantic view about anything. There are some companies headed by smart people, with forward thinking, who value those who give them money, and are appreciated by people who do give them money. And then there are companies who don't. To say that the latter is the only kind that exist or can exist is a twisted view about how successful companies actually operate. I didn't say it is the only kind. But you miss my point and its really banging my head against a wall isn't it?

lbecks
17-10-2011, 09:53
And? That doesn't exactly counter my point does it? If anything some of the worst abusing corporations are based, or have been grown, in the US. Even the US political mentality has a similar approach to its foreign policy and empire building - so the US environment is also not a good example. The long and short of it is, yes, some business models work well with responding directly to customer feedback. Some are better at sales analysis and marketing. Some are better at selling loads of stuff.

I believe GW is a business model that could work infinitely better if they responded to customer feedback in a positive way. You listed a grocery store as something that people buy from even though the store itself lacks some quality you are looking for. I'm still not sure what your point is there since I don't know Tesco's business model and didn't bother to explain it but went off on the US' foreign policy. But in general when it comes to grocery stores they stock all kinds of products so price and variety are the biggest determining factors. Butchering, Cooked foods, in-store brands may also factor but I don't know what exactly is in a Tesco concerning those things.


*sigh* well done - those last lines are particularly insightful. MMA and GW are incomparable, so its not a very good example. Its this same old argument about the retail business which, for my money, has not been proved either way yet. What is fact is that GW would never have got to the size it is today without the retail business, arguably would never have had the resource to develop itself as it has done and this is born out by the rest of the market; some great products, a fair amount of inconsistency and turnovers that are tiny compred to GW and nothing like the market penetration. The US is also a very different market and as I have said elsewhere GW's retail programme over there is the wrong way to go. They have even had US "specialists" (as well as UK ones) mess up their US trade business as well. GW and the US have never been a happy pairing.

At least your admitting GW has had a problems branching out and have made poor decisions. That's a start. Congrats. And the UFC is an example of a product that came from nothing and carved out some big placement for itself. The current situation of blacking out future releases with GW does has a similarity to the UFC announcing future cards. Cards cost 45-60 dollars here and they come out every month. And the UFC always lets its fans know who's going to be on the card and they aren't worried if some super card 4 months down the line might overshadow the card next month. They're secure in their product and their relationship with customers. That's why you can twitter msg Dana White, their president, and he will respond to you. There's a certain transparency going on that fans appreciate. He will apologize if he feels one of their shows was bad. Communication is key in a lot of things in life, business being one of them. It's one of the things (Warning: i'm going to say something nice about GW) I really like about the EM team. Most of them have accounts on CMON and will answer questions. Now imagine if <sarcasm> "the proponents of vertical intergration: GW!" had that kind of access at every level. If you just say "well, the UFC is a sports company, and GW is a miniatures manufacturer, completely different" then you can just keep your blinders on because that's self inflicted blindness on your part.


I didn't say it is the only kind. But you miss my point and its really banging my head against a wall isn't it?

But you're saying it's the only kind for GW. Because that's what we're talking about and it seems like you've convinced yourself they're in such a unique position as they can't learn lessons from anywhere else. So you can keep banging your head against the wall, eyes closed. I'll be over here amused by it.

lanrak
17-10-2011, 10:09
Hi Yabbadabba.
Having a chain of retail store was only PART of the reason for GW growth.
(And it was the ONLY serious retail option availble up untill the late 1990s.)

GW could NOT have expanded without the studio staff inspiring the desire to buy, and tell everone how cool GW stuff was.

Having a product that is seen as good quality and relativley good value for money, is usualy more important for growth,Than how big your retail oultet is.(Most buisnesses expand the retail operation in responce to higher demand.)
A chain of retail stores selling product that doesnt appeal to enough people , is just a waste of money.

It is important to get the ballance right between the cost of manufacture/development, and the cost of retailing/ distribution.To achive the level of value that grows the customer base.

And I would say the TV advertising from the MB partnership on Space Crusade/HeroQuest, and the MASSIVE hype over the LoTR films .Have swelled the ranks of GW gamers by a high factor , compared to the effect of just having a chain of retail stores did.

I belive that GW should enter another partnership with a company that has specialised in selling boxed games to the masses.(Like MB did).

Relying on computer games to attract new customers is not the best idea.The type of people that get everything they need to play for 30-50, and prep time is just 'put the disk in the drive'.
May not be suited to the level of investment the 'GW hobby' requires.

I know we dont agree excatly on what is wrong with GW buisnessplan.
But brining in a partner to release great boxed games in the mainstream could be one thing we agree on?

Inquisitor Kallus
17-10-2011, 10:12
I believe GW is a business model that could work infinitely better if they responded to customer feedback in a positive way. You listed a grocery store as something that people buy from even though the store itself lacks some quality you are looking for. I'm still not sure what your point is there since I don't know Tesco's business model. But in general when it comes to grocery stores they stock all kinds of products some price and variety are the biggest determining factors. Butchering, Cooked foods, in-store brands may also factor but I don't know what exactly is in a Tesco concerning those things.



At least your admitting GW has had a problems branching out and have made poor decisions. That's a start. Congrats. And the UFC is an example of a product that came from nothing and carved out some big placement for itself. The current situation of blacking out future releases with GW does has a similarity to the UFC announcing future cards. Cards cost 45-60 dollars here and they come out every month. And the UFC always lets its fans know who's going to be on the card and they aren't worried if some super card 4 months down the line might overshadow the card next month. They're secure in their product and their relationship with customers. That's why you can twitter msg Dana White, their president, and he will respond to you. There's a certain transparency going on that fans appreciate. If you just say "well, they're a sports company, and GW is a miniatures manufacturer, completely different" then you can just keep your blinders on because that's self inflicted blindness on your part.



But you're saying it's the only kind for GW. Because that's what we're talking about and it seems like you've convinced yourself they're in such a unique position as they can't learn lessons from anywhere else. So you can keep banging your head against the wall, eyes closed. I'll be over here amused by it.

As Yabba said, they're extremely incomparable. Youd be better off comparing football matches with UFC. They don't rely purely on physical product that is produced as GW do. They don't have to worry about retail stores and product manufacturing as much. GW is a niche business model, on the high street, UFC is a sport/entertainment that is also shown on TV.

As for GW they ARE in a unique position, name me any other company like it. I'll save you some time, you won't be able to. Of course they may be able to learn things from other companys but they are so very different to most. Their retail arm is both one of their biggest strengths and at the same time a huge hinderance.

Inquisitor Kallus
17-10-2011, 10:20
And I would say the TV advertising from the MB partnership on Space Crusade/HeroQuest, and the MASSIVE hype over the LoTR films .Have swelled the ranks of GW gamers by a high factor , compared to the effect of just having a chain of retail stores did.

I belive that GW should enter another partnership with a company that has specialised in selling boxed games to the masses.(Like MB did).



It is true that the adverts brought in a lot of people to the hobby, but nowhere near as many would have stayed without the stores, same with the LOTR.

I totally agree that GW could try the MB style partnership again. However, we live in a very different age now. I don't know why, but I get a feeling that it would be nowhere near as popular as it was then, though maybe that is just me being older...

lbecks
17-10-2011, 10:32
As Yabba said, they're extremely incomparable. Youd be better off comparing football matches with UFC. They don't rely purely on physical product that is produced as GW do. They don't have to worry about retail stores and product manufacturing as much. GW is a niche business model, on the high street, UFC is a sport/entertainment that is also shown on TV.

As for GW they ARE in a unique position, name me any other company like it. I'll save you some time, you won't be able to. Of course they may be able to learn things from other companys but they are so very different to most. Their retail arm is both one of their biggest strengths and at the same time a huge hinderance.

The UFC and GW both have operating costs, release product on a monthly basis, try to expand to global markets, and are essentially entertainment companies people spend disposable income on. Except one has really embraced becoming larger while improving their product and another is kind of stagnant and some of their product has improved. 10 years ago both were considered niche. They have fan following on the internet who are very passionate about their products but one listens and the other really doesn't.

In terms of having vertical integration, apple is somewhat like GW. They produce their products, sell them, have retail stores. Except they've expanded in smart ways. They were a personal computer company but now they make phones, make music players and are music distributors. Those were smart ways to branch out. Video game companies are also somewhat similar, except in terms of video games everyone in the industry has to work together to succeed. There is no vertical integration since one party makes the system you play on and one develops the game, and then you need another company to provide internet access so you can connect to your friends. And you have to pay for every level of access. Maybe this is another aspect that GW misjudged. Video Games are a total success story. Once niche, now mainstream.

And thanks for admitting the retail arm can be a hindrance. I think that's what most people have qualms with. I love the GW creative and design and engineering team (except finecast lol). What I originally stated in this thread concerning Specialist Games is that they should get a branch. Since I like the creative part. That's the part of GW that keeps me interested, that makes me look forward to news about WH supplemental force rumors and to hear about what the team is doing and planning. Forgeworld, they're part of creative and design. GW does a good job when it comes to the creative and design parts. I want more of that.

Inquisitor Kallus
17-10-2011, 10:49
The UFC and GW both have operating costs, release product on a monthly basis, try to expand to global markets, and are essentially entertainment companies people spend disposable income on. Except one has really embraced becoming larger while improving their product and another is kind of stagnant and some of their product has improved. 10 years ago both were considered niche. They have fan following on the internet who are very passionate about their products but one listens and the other really doesn't.

.

All companies have operating costs...

And it doesnt change the fact that they are still very different, I don't see why you persist in trying to make them appear to be similar.

Entertainment is such a broad spectrum in that fishing or motorcross could be considered entertainment depending on who you are talking to.

lbecks
17-10-2011, 10:52
And I would say the TV advertising from the MB partnership on Space Crusade/HeroQuest, and the MASSIVE hype over the LoTR films .Have swelled the ranks of GW gamers by a high factor , compared to the effect of just having a chain of retail stores did.

I belive that GW should enter another partnership with a company that has specialised in selling boxed games to the masses.(Like MB did).


What was the MB partnership? I got in the hobby around 2002-ish, mostly due to the general internet boom, right before the internet sales ban. So i've always seen GW as a very insular company with no advertising at all.

Inquisitor Kallus
17-10-2011, 10:57
They partnered with GW on Heroquest and Space Crusade which were board games. Adverts were on TV promoting the games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uozIWK51x58

lbecks
17-10-2011, 11:04
All companies have operating costs...

And it doesnt change the fact that they are still very different, I don't see why you persist in trying to make them appear to be similar.

Entertainment is such a broad spectrum in that fishing or motorcross could be considered entertainment depending on who you are talking to.

That's right all companies have operating costs. Whether you spend them on paying athletes fees and renting arenas or paying sculptors and paying for plastic, they are the expenses they incur. That's a common thread. You're so insistent on setting GW apart, but they're a company like most others. There's a reason marketing and advertising people can work for various companies and have positive results in different industries even if the details aren't exactly the same. It's people selling product to other people at its core.

We only have a certain number of free hours in our day that we can fill with leisure goods and activities. It can be fishing or motocross if that's your thing. But a smart company will try to get your dollars and your time. They will make you believe that they care about you as a customer now and in the future. That their product is worth telling other people about enthusiastically. A not smart company will not. A not smart company will instill in its customers a belief that they're limited in what they can do and have those customers make excuses on their behalf.

Inquisitor Kallus
17-10-2011, 11:28
Yes they are a company, but what they do is unique, again I ask you to name me a company that does what they do. For UFC I can name WBC, WWE/WWF and so on.

Anyway back on topic. I think a lot of people would really like to see a seperate division, the problem would be whether it could support itself. A niche within a niche is difficult. Although there is talk of cannabalising sales there are a number of people who apparently only play SGs or would if they were better supported, people who have left GW because they grew tired of WFB/40k wanting something smaller scale with less investment.

Im wondering how many people would be prepared to leave games like Uncharted Seas, Malifaux etc if a similar GW game was 'redone'. GW/Warhammer as a brand is strong, and a lot of people have a great love for the settings. Would they be prepared to pay more for that?

lbecks
17-10-2011, 11:50
Yes they are a company, but what they do is unique, again I ask you to name me a company that does what they do. For UFC I can name WBC, WWE/WWF and so on.

Anyway back on topic. I think a lot of people would really like to see a seperate division, the problem would be whether it could support itself. A niche within a niche is difficult. Although there is talk of cannabalising sales there are a number of people who apparently only play SGs or would if they were better supported, people who have left GW because they grew tired of WFB/40k wanting something smaller scale with less investment.

Im wondering how many people would be prepared to leave games like Uncharted Seas, Malifaux etc if a similar GW game was 'redone'. GW/Warhammer as a brand is strong, and a lot of people have a great love for the settings. Would they be prepared to pay more for that?

WBC isn't a company. The boxing business model is actually pretty different than the UFC business model. UFC is very vertically integrated as much as a fight promotion can be. Since MB was brought up, it's kind of like GW. Produces games, doesn't really sell them and maybe retail is where GW went wrong. But you need friends within the same room to play them like a GW game. So that's not a uniquely GW thing. Having an N64 you needed friends to play Super Smash Bros.
More OT: The reason I think of GW and UFC together is I discovered both around the time of the internet boom 2002-ish. This was when broadband became available to me and anything I wanted to look up or find on the internet became quick and easy. The two things I found and got really into that lasted were miniatures and MMA. The difference is GW responded to the internet boom with the internet ban on sales. They didn't like the internet at all. The UFC on the other hand embraced the internet and now they're a very big company on network tv here in the states. And they both faced trouble with the internet. GW doesn't like stores selling their actual products online at discount. UFC has to deal with people viewing their product for free on streams or being dl'd on torrents. But one reacted negatively and became more insular and the other rolled with the punches and actually offers free fights in various ways. So looking back I see a smart company and a not so smart company.

Now back to topic. I feel like companies reach a point where they go from a to b but b to c scares them. They invested all the time to grow the company from nothing but to expand the company even more and branch out is somehow too risky. Like they saturated the market and now the marketing and advertising division has absolutely nothing to do. Or the non-existent marketing and advertising division in GW's case.

If GW did make a specialist division I think price would be big factor, and also support. They would really need to go after their direct competitors. I'd make another UFC plot comparison in killing competitors but you might not be interested. But suffice to say the UFC did a very good job in cornering their market. In terms of branding a name change would be ideal. Just calling it specialist games says "This isn't what we pay attention to the most."
Personally, in all the Specialist games my favorite was inquisitor. I think in terms of models it would be awesome if it was supported with plastic kits.

Shamutanti
17-10-2011, 12:16
If a separate division can maintain profitability on its own then it deserves to exist. The very existence of FW makes me think that. .

You do realise Forgeworld makes an astronomical amount of money for its floor size and provides a tonne of additional cash for WhW store? The reason it's allowed to do as it is fluff wise and to have an office space is because of the sheer amount of cash it drags in (unlike any of the other smaller subsideries that were around that never lasted like wargear or those battle cards).

And that's only because of the 'big kit' thing Forgeworld has going on. When you buy Forgeworld you typically buy big. Specialist games just wouldn't have that because they're naturally designed to be played as a skirmish. So money invested wouldn't pay much back (if anything at all - due to the fact you would need to hire a new set of designers/sculpters/rules people/telephone guys/book writers, etc.).

lanrak
17-10-2011, 12:33
Hi Inquisitor Kallus.
You said...
'It is true that the adverts brought in a lot of people to the hobby, but nowhere near as many would have stayed without the stores, same with the LOTR.'

I belive the B&M stores had an impact on customer retension back when HQ and SC were in the shops.The GW stores helped keep people interested in the GW hobby in general.(Because they were more' hobby centre' than 'hard sell retail' and had a wide range of games/activities suitable for a wide variety of gamers/collectors.)

But by the time LoTR films were released, the general hype of these epic films had more influence on customer retension, than the GW stores could possibly manage by themselves.(Loads of companies with LoTR licences sold massive amounts of stock without the cost of thier own stores.)

Is it coincidence that since the 'LoTR bubble' burst, GW plc have lost sales volumes at an ever increasing rate?

I dont think simply dropping all the B&M stores as a knee jerk reaction is at all sensible.
The amount of recruitment/retail to cost ratio needs to be analised.
And alternative methods should be researched.

GW plc need to ask the following questions...

1)What is the most suitable demoghraphic for our products?

2)Whats the most cost effective way to alert this demoghraphic to our products?

3) Whats the most cost effective method to distribute and retail our products to this demoghraphic?

4) Is it more cost effective to focus more on customer retension ?

Kirby and Wells seem to ask.
1)What is the easiest demoghraphic to sell to .
A. Children.

2)We have inherited a large chain of B&M stores how do we use it to generate short term profit.
A. Insular marketing of own brand products.

In short Kirby and Wells simply take the path of least effort for them.Rather than the path thats best for long term growth of GW plc.

I belive the ONLY way GW plc has a long term future is by a objective assesment of it products, the asociated target demoghraphic, and how to bring them together in the most cost effective way.

It may be that having great boxed games in the main stream retail outlets is still viable/cost effective method of getting people brand aware, and recruiting new customers.

lbecks
17-10-2011, 13:03
You do realise Forgeworld makes an astronomical amount of money for its floor size and provides a tonne of additional cash for WhW store? The reason it's allowed to do as it is fluff wise and to have an office space is because of the sheer amount of cash it drags in (unlike any of the other smaller subsideries that were around that never lasted like wargear or those battle cards).

And that's only because of the 'big kit' thing Forgeworld has going on. When you buy Forgeworld you typically buy big. Specialist games just wouldn't have that because they're naturally designed to be played as a skirmish. So money invested wouldn't pay much back (if anything at all - due to the fact you would need to hire a new set of designers/sculpters/rules people/telephone guys/book writers, etc.).

That's good to hear forgeworld is raking in so much cash and isn't being subsidized. They have a fairly large sculpting team. The question to ask then would be how to replicate FW's success on other products, in this case Special Games, that could use the FW business model. Of course one of the difficulties is that forgeworld directly ties into the existing core games of WFB and 40K whereas the SG just share IP. Like the difference between Space Hulk and Dreadfleet. When I think about it FW is kind of like Perry Miniatures.

Inquisitor Kallus
17-10-2011, 13:30
Hi Inquisitor Kallus.
You said...
'It is true that the adverts brought in a lot of people to the hobby, but nowhere near as many would have stayed without the stores, same with the LOTR.'

I belive the B&M stores had an impact on customer retension back when HQ and SC were in the shops.The GW stores helped keep people interested in the GW hobby in general.(Because they were more' hobby centre' than 'hard sell retail' and had a wide range of games/activities suitable for a wide variety of gamers/collectors.)

But by the time LoTR films were released, the general hype of these epic films had more influence on customer retension, than the GW stores could possibly manage by themselves.(Loads of companies with LoTR licences sold massive amounts of stock without the cost of thier own stores.)




Unlike the majority of its other games the LOTR bought in lots (and I mean lots) of people who were riding the film buzz. A lot of them were never going to be tabletop wargamers. Most tried it for a while then quit. To be honest it was a 'fad' to them.

IJW
17-10-2011, 15:11
That's good to hear forgeworld is raking in so much cash and isn't being subsidized. They have a fairly large sculpting team.
Not really. They have a large number of freelancers that produce models, but as far as I'm aware the number of salaried sculptors for FW is only a few.


The question to ask then would be how to replicate FW's success on other products, in this case Special Games, that could use the FW business model. Of course one of the difficulties is that forgeworld directly ties into the existing core games of WFB and 40K whereas the SG just share IP.
You just answered it yourself. Plus the previously-mentioned points about FW models being big and expensive.

yabbadabba
17-10-2011, 16:20
Forgeworld is a weird old fish. It makes money because of several points:

1) It is piggy backing off one of the most successful IPs around
2) It has a dedicated and often obsessive customer base - "worse" than in any other part of GW, but with an awful lot more money to spend than the traditional GW customer base.
3) It charges an astronomical sum for what are, in essence and on the whole, products that aren't in any GW Studio publication that often can't be used in GW venues in the form for which they were designed. In many cases a very good con.
4) It has a very small base of operations, so very low overheads
5) It is also careful to appeal to markets outside of traditional GW ones, so you will often see a FW stand at modelling shows in the UK, rather than just wargames shows.

In essence it is doing exactly what it was originally designed for, making money of fanatics with lots of money, or fanatics which will save. Its a very, very different market to GWs stores or trade accounts.

6mmhero
17-10-2011, 17:15
When SG games were around and received their own mags and then the condensed Fanatic mag, they were popular but very rarely brought in much revenue on a continued basis.
If a store had a sudden WM buzz then one maybe two people would pick up a new army, everyone else would just use their old army. Outside of GW stores you find so many alternatives being used as they are cheaper.
Inquisitor was a great range, but as you only need one or two models to play, I cannot see how they would make money from releasing plastic characters.

It would be nice if GW did some new stuff, but I dont think it would bring in the money and similar time and effort with WFB or 40k would bring in.

I have to admit I am with Yabba for the most part on this, and he is spot on with what makes FW such a cash cow.

As to the age old comment on stores, they are vital here in the UK and HQ do seem to keep a close eye these days on how a store does etc.

Inquisitor Kallus
17-10-2011, 19:28
When SG games were around and received their own mags and then the condensed Fanatic mag, they were popular but very rarely brought in much revenue on a continued basis.
If a store had a sudden WM buzz then one maybe two people would pick up a new army, everyone else would just use their old army. Outside of GW stores you find so many alternatives being used as they are cheaper.
Inquisitor was a great range, but as you only need one or two models to play, I cannot see how they would make money from releasing plastic characters.

It would be nice if GW did some new stuff, but I dont think it would bring in the money and similar time and effort with WFB or 40k would bring in.

I have to admit I am with Yabba for the most part on this, and he is spot on with what makes FW such a cash cow.

As to the age old comment on stores, they are vital here in the UK and HQ do seem to keep a close eye these days on how a store does etc.

Youre correct, Inquisitor was one of the least profitable SGs. It really doesn't lend itself well to making money. It is far less a traditional wargame and slightly bridges the gap with RP and TTWG.

The rules were fairly decent until you got too many uber characters like marines with their stats that threw the system out of whack. Far better with the more mundane characters.

Anyway yes, FW is a good example of something that went right. IT is possible GW could have a similar success story again. It will be interesting to see if the new Hobbit film will allow GW to make any changes, though I am sure after last time they will be a lot more careful

lbecks
17-10-2011, 20:30
Not really. They have a large number of freelancers that produce models, but as far as I'm aware the number of salaried sculptors for FW is only a few.


You just answered it yourself. Plus the previously-mentioned points about FW models being big and expensive.

Are they freelancers in the sense that they are actually on retainer but get a bump if they sculpt an actual project but not fully salaried and employed? Because every FW kit gets credited to someone in their design staff and it's the same people over and over again. That's pretty different than PP for example who still outsource certain sculpts.

And it seems like as people have been chiming in the models being big and expensive isn't a deterrent. I think that works because FW brands itself correctly. They're first and foremost a premium sculpting house. They also give out catalogs for free. I just wanted to add that into the "things they do which they don't need to but make me happy and like them" category.

IJW
18-10-2011, 13:26
Freelance as in not an employee of Forgeworld.

Easy E
18-10-2011, 14:03
Therefore, no benefits or salary which equals no overhead for FW. Only paid for finished work rendered without all the irritating side effects of the golden handcuffs.

You know, the "New, New" Capitalism!

yabbadabba
18-10-2011, 14:06
They also give out catalogs for free. I just wanted to add that into the "things they do which they don't need to but make me happy and like them" category. What on earth makes you think that they don't need to hand out catalogues?

eldargal
18-10-2011, 14:40
Kev White of Hasslefree miniatures sculpted Theodore Bruckner on his demigrpyh and he isn't a FW staffer. Technically the Carmine Dragon was sculpted by a non-FW member too, though Trish Carden is employeed by GW proper so it is a moot point. Some of the Nurgle stuff was sculpted by Daniel Cockersell and he isn't listed as a FW staffer either.


Are they freelancers in the sense that they are actually on retainer but get a bump if they sculpt an actual project but not fully salaried and employed? Because every FW kit gets credited to someone in their design staff and it's the same people over and over again. That's pretty different than PP for example who still outsource certain sculpts.

And it seems like as people have been chiming in the models being big and expensive isn't a deterrent. I think that works because FW brands itself correctly. They're first and foremost a premium sculpting house. They also give out catalogs for free. I just wanted to add that into the "things they do which they don't need to but make me happy and like them" category.

Chaos and Evil
18-10-2011, 15:00
Kev White of Hasslefree miniatures sculpted Theodore Bruckner on his demigrpyh and he isn't a FW staffer. Technically the Carmine Dragon was sculpted by a non-FW member too, though Trish Carden is employeed by GW proper so it is a moot point. Some of the Nurgle stuff was sculpted by Daniel Cockersell and he isn't listed as a FW staffer either.

Forgeworld used to use Freelancers.

However around the time that they fired Rick Priestly, they also stopped using Freelancers, and anulled existing Freelance work projects.

Daniel used to work with FW in-house.

eldargal
18-10-2011, 15:07
I wasn't aware of that, thanks.:) I was just pointing out that not everything on the FW site is credited to FW staffers as was claimed.

Carlosophy
18-10-2011, 23:13
Jervis is right in saying we need *new* specialist games. Aeronautica Imperialis is a good example of this.

A replacement for Necromunda could be a game set in the Maelstrom with all sorts of outlandish pirate gangs and alien races fighting over spoils.

Inquisitor Kallus
19-10-2011, 01:08
Definitely, and although the games should have distinct settings such as Mordheim and Necromunda they should also have some kind of supplements to allow for a wider range of settings, even being able to link to WFB and 40k repectively.

lbecks
19-10-2011, 02:00
What on earth makes you think that they don't need to hand out catalogues?

They have a website that they take orders on and provide all information to view their products. In fact, you have to go to their website and request a catalog from the listed email. You can also dl it in PDF form.
So i'm already at the place where I can see their products in big and sometimes colorful pictures and purchase them with a few button clicks but they will send anyone in the world a catalog, for free. And it's a pretty nice catalog. B&W but with lots of pics and the year on the front, and there's a nice Warhammer Forge insert since I guess it wasn't ready when they first made the catalog.
If I want to a catalog from main GW I have to buy it. They monetized their catalogs. WD's sometimes have catalogs, but I have to buy the magazine for those.

Inquisitor Kallus
19-10-2011, 02:35
They have a website that they take orders on and provide all information to view their products. In fact, you have to go to their website and request a catalog from the listed email. You can also dl it in PDF form.
So i'm already at the place where I can see their products in big and sometimes colorful pictures and purchase them with a few button clicks but they will send anyone in the world a catalog, for free. And it's a pretty nice catalog. B&W but with lots of pics and the year on the front, and there's a nice Warhammer Forge insert since I guess it wasn't ready when they first made the catalog.
If I want to a catalog from main GW I have to buy it. They monetized their catalogs. WD's sometimes have catalogs, but I have to buy the magazine for those.

.......or you can go and see them at any event and you can pick one up. Gw monetized their catalogues because they were huge and full colour

lbecks
19-10-2011, 02:49
.......or you can go and see them at any event and you can pick one up. Gw monetized their catalogues because they were huge and full colour

The closest Games Day is 2,000 miles away from me. It used to be 60 miles but over the years GW made some choices where they can apparently only support the one that's 2,000 miles away. I guess like the choices where they can only support 3 games and not a bunch of cool and unique games and model lines.

Thank you forgeworld, i appreciate your catalog even though some are now making excuses on why you shouldn't send me one and I should travel very far just to get one.

Inquisitor Kallus
19-10-2011, 03:06
Excuse yourself. No one on here has given excuses why you shouldn't be sent one or anything of the sort. I was stating you can pick them up at events that Forgeworld attends, not just request one from their site

lbecks
19-10-2011, 03:18
Excuse yourself. No one on here has given excuses why you shouldn't be sent one or anything of the sort. I was stating you can pick them up at events that Forgeworld attends, not just request one from their site

No, i'm not in the habit of making excuses, so i won't excuse myself. But I will say when i think FW made a good decision that made me appreciate them.

Inquisitor Kallus
19-10-2011, 04:22
No,......




Thank you forgeworld, i appreciate your catalog even though some are now making excuses on why you shouldn't send me one and I should travel very far just to get one.

you just make up random stuff like saying people are making excuses why they shouldnt send you catalogues....


Anyway, yes it is pretty cool getting them, I remember when we used to get a new one in each time, pretty cool to have.

lbecks
19-10-2011, 05:09
No,......




you just make up random stuff like saying people are making excuses why they shouldnt send you catalogues....


Anyway, yes it is pretty cool getting them, I remember when we used to get a new one in each time, pretty cool to have.

What's easier, me traveling any amount of miles to go to an event on a specific date during the year which i most likely have to pay a ticket for in order to pick up a catalog, or requesting a catalog in the comfort of my home and having it delivered to said home, postage paid? I can only assume your response was complete snark. So my apologies if it wasn't and you didn't know which was the easier, more attractive, and more thoughtful (of FW) option.

yabbadabba
19-10-2011, 08:14
Thank you forgeworld, i appreciate your catalog even though some are now making excuses on why you shouldn't send me one and I should travel very far just to get one. This really is immature of you Ibecks and it leaves a question of whether you are even willing to listen, to try and understand the issues behind this.

@Carlosophy - Its a great idea the problems are a little complex though. First JJ has always "bucked the trend" vocally in terms of games. He is the SG champion in the company (not an official position ;)), so he is often quoted at supporting SGs and their expansion but has made little or no headway since about 2000. It would also require a shift of business philosophy and direction by those at the top. Third it would require a big look at how they promote and sell such a game - SGs long tyerm cannot make sustained income. Also it would require the buy in of the sales channels - in the old days Retail would bite your hand off for 'em but Trade has had some bad experiences of it. Finally it would require a plan to exploit any such success, something I am not sure GW could do or implement.

If they do revisit SGs or make a new one, then I hope they can hang off for another year or two until I am back in a job :D

lbecks
19-10-2011, 11:15
This really is immature of you Ibecks and it leaves a question of whether you are even willing to listen, to try and understand the issues behind this.

@Carlosophy - Its a great idea the problems are a little complex though. First JJ has always "bucked the trend" vocally in terms of games. He is the SG champion in the company (not an official position ;)), so he is often quoted at supporting SGs and their expansion but has made little or no headway since about 2000. It would also require a shift of business philosophy and direction by those at the top. Third it would require a big look at how they promote and sell such a game - SGs long tyerm cannot make sustained income. Also it would require the buy in of the sales channels - in the old days Retail would bite your hand off for 'em but Trade has had some bad experiences of it. Finally it would require a plan to exploit any such success, something I am not sure GW could do or implement.

If they do revisit SGs or make a new one, then I hope they can hang off for another year or two until I am back in a job :D

Issues behind what, SG being dead and most likely never coming back? Anyone who follows GW knows this to be very likely true for the foreseeable future. But if immature = hopeless and unable to dream then call me immature.

If you've ever read Tom Kirby's statements on GW's annual reports they're of an old man who is out of touch with the world and who aims so low with GW's potential as to never be disappointed. As I said before I doubt anyone will really miss him when he's gone. I get it, GW is run by a bunch of people whose reason to keep it existing is to cut costs at every corner to pay dividends to shareholders every year. But it irks mean when this poor and unambitious mentality of the top brass invades the people who love GW as fans.

This is a forum where we can discuss ideas and have fun talking about them even if they never come to exist in reality. It's the potential of "what if" and given some of the attitudes on this forum it's probably safe to say a lot of "what ifs" never became "what is." I'd insert another UFC story here but to cliff note it: A lot of "what ifs" have become "what is" int he UFC because they're smart.

With that said, if SG games did come back, what kind of new and fun ideas would you guys like to see? I always like the larger Inquisitor models, and those in plastic would be killer.

Inquisitor Kallus
19-10-2011, 15:11
What's easier, me traveling any amount of miles to go to an event on a specific date during the year which i most likely have to pay a ticket for in order to pick up a catalog, or requesting a catalog in the comfort of my home and having it delivered to said home, postage paid? I can only assume your response was complete snark. So my apologies if it wasn't and you didn't know which was the easier, more attractive, and more thoughtful (of FW) option.

You completely misread my earlier post saying it is an option to pick one up at an event they attend, not just order it online. It was aimed at everyone in general, not targeted at you as an individual.

@Carlosophy. What sort of new games would you like to see?

Also are there any paticular models people wwould like to see that fall outside of the general 40k line?

Easy E
19-10-2011, 15:48
I have a few game ideas for them...

1. A necromunda type game set on an Exodite Maiden World between rival clans. The main draw would be mounted "dragon" cavalry units in ritualized combat with a campaign system. This could take place on a heavily wooded world, and have a strong Exodite focus.

2. A necromunda type game set-in an old and derelict world in the Core (Possible allusions to Squat Homeworld) pitting rival Ad-mech, Rogue trader, and Inquisitorial teams exploring the tunnels and searching for STC/Artifacts, ect. Here the focus would be tunnel based skirmish rules with a campaign system.

3. A game of wet naval combat in 40K. Battleships, subs, and torpedoes; oh my! A fleet battle game.

4. A necromunda style game set in the Eye of Terror. Another skirmish based game focusing on the rise to power of an aspiring champion as he accumulates the favor and resources to create a powerful warband. The focus would be on the non-space marine elements of chaos, wacky stuff, and would again feature a campaign system.

5. A resurrection of the old WHFB warband/Path to Glory style games set in the Borderlands and featuring all factions. Those were a great spring board into a WHFB army! This would also feature a campaign system for improvement and expansion.

6. Relentless- another skirmish game set in the bowels of an Imperial (or Chaos) Warship where various work crews and shifts vie for the attention and promotions within the hierarchy of the Imperial vessel. Again, the focus would be on the low-level scum of the Imperial Navy, cramped quarters, and a campaign system.


Of all of those, I think the Warband/Path to Glory would make the most sense to act as a springboard into WHFB and to give Vets something else to do with their models but keep them in the GW Hobby. No "new" models would be needed to created, just some PDF rules that could be "living" to be kept up to date as new Army Books come out. All in all, it would be pretty self-contained.

Chaos and Evil
19-10-2011, 15:51
Relentless
My favourite Black Library book. :-)

yabbadabba
19-10-2011, 15:57
I think they are all great ideas Easy E and all either easily done, or done before by the community. They also fit right into the SG design ethos of presenting a slice of the various GW universes.

The "springboard into WFB/40K/insertgamehere" is not one I would agree with implictly as a stated aim - there are better ways of doing this. SGs main strength was to keep people in the hobby at times when they didn't have the cash/wanted more detail and depth/ wanted to focus on the more softer skills side of the hobby.

Inquisitor Kallus
19-10-2011, 16:39
I think a lot of it was about variety. You can get bored playing 40k/fantasy constantly every week, the SGs are/were a breath of fresh air, and also as you said Yabba, something that didn't require as much effort/money for people to be part of.

Myself personally, I love the difference they bring, the greater generalship things like EPIC require and the different scales of battles. They allow for the background to come to life, not just get stuck in 1500-2000pt battles. The depth and breadth of the GW hobby as a whole is what I think makes it to me. The variety is huge, and I hope they keep the variety going..

Easy E
19-10-2011, 18:52
The "springboard into WFB/40K/insertgamehere" is not one I would agree with implictly as a stated aim - there are better ways of doing this. SGs main strength was to keep people in the hobby at times when they didn't have the cash/wanted more detail and depth/ wanted to focus on the more softer skills side of the hobby.

I agree. However, if it can do both... that's just gravy.

I actually feel most Specialist games are a horrible springboard. However, the Warbands one for WHFB seems like it could be work, plus have the other benefits of keeping the GW universe fresh.

Edit: So, what do people think of the WHH (Historicals) model for Specialist Game books....

lbecks
20-10-2011, 00:43
Edit: So, what do people think of the WHH (Historicals) model for Specialist Game books....

I think that would be okay but for me i'm a fan of not only specialist games, but specialist models. In that case i'm pretty happy whenever FW does different types of miniatures and now they're further developing books and rules. The downside is it's at geared to people deep within the hobby with a premium presentation and cost.