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tmarichards
24-09-2011, 01:24
Hey guys

I've started work on a series of tactics videos that are aimed mainly at new players, but more experienced players might be able to pick a few things up as well. I've decided to put these here instead of my usual thread in the Battle Reports section as this feels more relevant.

For anyone who's interested, I've being playing 8th competitively since it came out (and 7th for about a year before), and I'm currently ranked (at the time of writing) just inside the UK top 90. So not great, but having played 250-300 competitive games of 8th I have a pretty good grasp of the basics of the game, so I want to do something that I would've found useful when I was learning the gaming.

Hopefully you'll find them useful, any feedback would be great.

This first post will be updated as more videos come out

Cheers,

Tom

Subject 1: Redirecting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdGLIwMUowo

Subject 2: Deployment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZJGZf2onEE

Subject 3: Magic Phase

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA4XPVn56SQ

Subject 4: List building (Empire focused)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4e19MQcRBE

Nice Kans
24-09-2011, 02:03
I don't have a lot of experience and had to learn almost everything on my own with no help. Going up against people who are way more experienced has made the game frustrating at times. I found this video VERY helpful. Things like this a lot of players may take for granted as Warhammer 101 but its helpful to be able to plan for tactics like this early on instead of stumbling into them and getting lucky. Thanks for posting this.

Dirty Mac
24-09-2011, 02:53
I was actually going to ask you if you could do something like this, considering that you seem to have no trouble getting vids up, i thought it would be easy for you. Thanks

Tarliyn
24-09-2011, 04:09
I love this idea. Watching the first vid now

tmarichards
24-09-2011, 04:42
I was actually going to ask you if you could do something like this, considering that you seem to have no trouble getting vids up, i thought it would be easy for you. Thanks

Oh the joys of being a graduate yet not having a job...

Thanks for all the feedback and kind words gents :)

Dirty Mac
24-09-2011, 05:20
I think your next video should be about, maybe deployment and tar pitting units to set up flank charges,( similar theme to re direct i know but)
It would be easier i think, to just go in the phases of the game, instead of mixing it up.

Continue with the movement phase, then magic then shooting then close combat.

tmarichards
24-09-2011, 06:24
I'll go with deployment, there's a fair bit of depth there. I'll try and do one every 2-3 days, they only take a couple of hours to do altogether.

Doommasters
24-09-2011, 07:44
Really good video! Clear information and in detail great job dude.

Deployment will be interesting, would be amazing if you could to a cople of match ups. I know you said you don't have many armies to call on, but even just talking about them would be good for new players.

ftayl5
24-09-2011, 07:53
I think that once completed, this will be an excellent guide for basic introductory tactics which currently the Internet seems to lack. There's a lot of specific army tactics (russelmoo, MrMalorian and the separate army forums eg. druchii.net) but not much out there that just preaches the basic fundamentals that all armies use.
I think your redirection (and future) one(s) would be improved slightly if you also said other units which could be used instead of the harpies and black guard and witch elves. Again because this is aimed at the uttermost beginners out there, so just saying that 'but you could also use any fast cavalry...' and 'this works against other frenzied troops too' is a tad vague. Although I suppose it would be hard to find the middle ground between vague and naming every unit of fast cavalry or other cheap throw away unit in the game.
Nevertheless a good start to what promises to be an excellent series, keep it up.

tmarichards
26-09-2011, 14:05
Updated with deployment

Dirty Mac
26-09-2011, 14:45
Awesome ,I am going to watch this. I out deployed my opponent last game, I want to make a habit of it.

brother_maynard
27-09-2011, 01:40
great stuff Tom, good to see the basics in action! you've come a long way, keep it up!

Doommasters
27-09-2011, 03:07
I so do not want this thread to get lost in a months time. Need some way to sticky these videos if they stay at the same high level.

tmarichards
27-09-2011, 03:21
Thanks guys, any ideas on what you'd like me to cover next?

Van Horstmann
27-09-2011, 09:22
Thanks guys, any ideas on what you'd like me to cover next?

I'm sure all Daemon Players would appreciate an instructional video on passing 5 Up Ward Saves......... ;)

Either that or a "How to beat Skaven" Masterclass ;)

Great videos, keep up the awesome work.

stonetroll
27-09-2011, 10:26
Maybe something on list selection? I am aware that this is a very race-specific topic, but I'm sure there are some common things people look for when trying to create competitive lists.

Other than that, maybe some stuff on the magic phase? What to do with a lot of dice, what to aim for when you only get 3-4 dice, how to get through prioritized spells, lots of potential there methinks.

Also something on the way succesful players cope with strategy vs tactics would be interesting. As a mildly experienced player I can usually figure out what I want tactically (unit A vs unit B), but I struggle a bit on the whole "at turn 6 I want the main part of my army to be right on that point of the table and to do so I will have sacrificed unit A, B and C to conserve my big deathstar."

just some ideas...

Liber
27-09-2011, 10:59
great stuff so far!

definitely good too see that the second part of the series was on a different table than that umm "charming" grey surface from the first vid :)

sullaz
28-09-2011, 23:00
I also wanted to say thank you very much for these videos. They are extremely useful for this 40k player giving Fantasy a try. An interesting one (since we're talking back to the basics) would be a walkthrough of magic, magic resistance, and strategy for the magic phase. Alternatively, a walkthrough of how some of the bigger, scarier spells work in practicality would be really useful.

Thanks again for the effort on these. They are much appreciated.

brother_maynard
29-09-2011, 15:01
Thanks guys, any ideas on what you'd like me to cover next?

magic strategy would be good as long as its more complicated than "throw 6 dice at X" lol. i know several guys who really have no idea how to prioritize spells, how to draw out dice, and basically get useful spells through without blowing up your wizard.

tmarichards
29-09-2011, 22:33
Magic video has been recorded (turned out to be 50mins :o), all I need now is my ISP to get their act together and I'll upload it. Thanks for the feedback chaps :)

Lord Dan
30-09-2011, 00:27
Looking good! I'd love a video on the efficient use of skirmishers.

tmarichards
30-09-2011, 03:13
I think I'll do one specifically on shades and maybe harpies, I've seen a few people saying they're not sure how to get the best out shades.

I've also heard they're not good because they can't take musicians or standards, but, well... that reasoning goes straight over my head.

Lord Dan
30-09-2011, 03:35
Great to hear it. Once you get through some of the basic videos I really do hope you'll do a string of advanced tactics as well. Some thoughts:

-Advanced maneuvering. When to reform vs. wheeling, how to get around tricky corners, etc.
-Counter Tactics. How to spot and combat some of the nasty tricks people throw at you in tournaments.

I was quite good at 7th edition, though because I moved to part of the country where no-one plays I haven't gotten more than a handful of 8th edition games in. These videos are really helping me visualize the new mechanics of the game beyond what I'm reading in the rulebook.

As to the standards and musicians question... obviously the best use for a 5-man crossbow-wielding BS5 unit is in hand-to-hand trying to win with static combat resolution. Come on, Tom. ;)

Dirty Mac
30-09-2011, 04:59
I think I'll do one specifically on shades and maybe harpies, I've seen a few people saying they're not sure how to get the best out shades.

I've also heard they're not good because they can't take musicians or standards, but, well... that reasoning goes straight over my head.

I had 5 shades take a unit of 18 Sword Masters down to 6 and panic them off the board. And i have had shades take out a small unit of Cavalry. Shades are awesome.

ewar
30-09-2011, 11:30
I had 5 shades take a unit of 18 Sword Masters down to 6 and panic them off the board. And i have had shades take out a small unit of Cavalry. Shades are awesome.

They are awesome, but how did 5 survive against 18 swordmasters? That seems the most unlikely scenario I can imagine.

They're good for charging in the flank of shallow formations (which perhaps the swordmasters were) but even then, 2 swordmasters would in all likelihood kill 3 or 4 shades before they can even strike...

Unless you're talking about shooting them, but then, that wasn't the point Lord Dan was making.

SteelTitan
30-09-2011, 13:47
-Advanced maneuvering. When to reform vs. wheeling, how to get around tricky corners, etc.
-Counter Tactics. How to spot and combat some of the nasty tricks people throw at you in tournaments.


That makes two. Some additions:

* Combat reforms
* How to counter if someone tries to redirect your own units. Forgive me if this was dealt with in the first video, it has been a week, but all I seem to recall is 'not charging them' or 'blasting them with magic' :)

Dirty Mac
30-09-2011, 14:36
Unless you're talking about shooting them,

Yes i was, the enemy dies so easily to shades. A shooting phase and then a Stand and Shoot reaction can turn in to panic tests pretty quickly. especially if the charge fails. Sword Masters got shut down quicker than Iraqi Airspace.

tmarichards
01-10-2011, 06:54
Updated with the magic phase, 50 mins of AWESOME :)

Doommasters
01-10-2011, 06:59
Updated with the magic phase, 50 mins of AWESOME :)

You are the man :evilgrin:

Rosstifer
01-10-2011, 07:33
Updated with the magic phase, 50 mins of AWESOME :)

Love the reports and the Tactica's mate, you really know what your talking about. You really should be placing higher in these tournaments but you have random bouts of some of the worst luck I've ever seen. It makes me cringe whilst watching the reports :eek:
Regardless, keep at it, I love the reports, you do a good job of clearly explaining your thought processes, something many lack, and I'm sure your diligence will be rewarded soon.

Razakel
01-10-2011, 11:11
Excellent videos and a great idea, thanks for this :)

Mushkilla
03-10-2011, 19:56
Great videos!

What build would you suggest for a firebelly?

tmarichards
03-10-2011, 20:40
Probably a great weapon and a dispel scroll, keeps him nice and cheap but still does everything you need him to. That's just theory though, I've not seen a Firebelly in action yet.

Mushkilla
03-10-2011, 21:22
On an unrelated note:

Have you ever considered running the Ruby Ring of Ruin on your level 1 wizard?

As adds more umpf and works well with kindleflame. Or would you rather save points?

tmarichards
03-10-2011, 23:16
I have, but then she's up to 150pts. Also, I'd rather just put the dice towards a bigger Fireball really.

Aggronor
04-10-2011, 05:18
I really, really like this as a new fantasy player.

IMO, too often tactics discussion focus almost entirely on "what unit should I take?" and don't talk enough about actually playing the game.

Lord Dan
04-10-2011, 12:31
Just watched your magic video during a painting session last night. A few thoughts:

-I like the long-format videos. It really gives you the time to go into detail on subjects without feeling like it's rushed.
-You had some really enlightening points about fire magic. When you first talked about taking a lv. 1 fire mage I thought: "That's ridiculous. Come on, Tom...". You explained your point extremely well, and I just wrote one into my list.
-There were a few other topics I found particularly informative, such as how/when to handle remains in play spells, when to NOT cast a spell, and how to draw out scrolls.

Extremely well done, Tom. I look forward to the next one.

Mushkilla
05-10-2011, 07:37
Thought this might be interesting. Some statistics I worked out a while ago as a big fan of the Lore of Fire.

Ruby Ring Ruin:

Average Number of hits:
In brackets are the number of dice used to cast. This is for a level 1 wizard.

2 dice:
fireball1(2): 3.11 hits
ruby(1) fireball1(1): 4.47 hits
3 dice:
fireball2(3): 5.18 hits
ruby(1) fireball1(2): 5.62 hits
ruby(2) fireball1(1): 5.72 hits
4 dice:
fireball2(4): 6.62 hits
ruby(1)fireball2(3): 8.26 hits
5 dice:
fireball3(5): 6.3031 hits
ruby(2)fireball2(3): 9.67 hits
6 dice:
fireball3(6): 8.98 hits
ruby(1)fireball3(5): 9.85 hits
ruby(2)fireball2(4): 10.3 hits
7 dice:
ruby(2)fireball3(5): 11.48 hits
8 dice:
ruby(2)fireball3(6): 13.2 hits
ruby(3)fireball3(5): 11.62 hits

note: the above calculations do not take into account IF, although IF only has an effect on the casting of a level 3 fireball, even then only a few combinations with two or more sixes don't beat the casting value of 18 (for five dice: 661111 and 662111; for six dice: 66111, 66112, 66122, 66113), so IF will add a negligible amount to the average number of hits.

Advantages:
-Increased damage output especially when using 4 and 5 dice.
-Decreases chance of miscasts.
-Two separate roles make dispelling more difficult (if you ignore the first fireball the second will be harder to dispel, if you dispel the first you will have less dice to dispel the second).
-Being able to use more dice (up to 8).
-Shoot multiple targets.
-The ability to have a 100% chance of casting a fireball with 3 dice. (If you really need to do a single wound, or remove regeneration).
-Guarantees the use of kindleflame.

Conclusion:

Worth 25pts? Yes. Worth Taking on a Dark elf wizard, maybe. Worth taking on a empire wizard for a total of 90pts (115 with dispel scroll)? Definitely!

:D

tmarichards
05-10-2011, 14:12
I'm not really sure what a lot of those numbers mean (maths has never been one of my strong points), but it does look like you're trying to get the 2D6 or 3D6 Fireball out of the Ruby Ring?

According to pg 37, "bound spells are often tied into a spell from a lore. Where this is the case and there is a choice of casting levels, the bound spell is always the easier 'unboosted' version with the lower casting level".

Again, sorry if I've misunderstood.

Lord Dan
05-10-2011, 14:18
I think he means he's just throwing a certain number of dice at each. For instance:

6 dice:
fireball3(6): 8.98 hits
ruby(1)fireball3(5): 9.85 hits
ruby(2)fireball2(4): 10.3 hits

In the first example he is using a lv.3 fireball with 6 dice. In the second example he is doing the basic fireball with the ring using 1 dice, and a lv. 3 fireball using 5 dice. In the final example he is doing the basic fireball with the ring using 2 dice, and a lv. 2 fireball using 4 dice.

tmarichards
05-10-2011, 15:17
Ahhhh, I see...

Mushkilla
05-10-2011, 16:25
Sorry, should have made it clearer. Lord Dan has it spot on.

-Basically the number in brackets is the number of dice being used to cast.
-ruby = ruby ring of ruin bound spell on a 3+
-fireball1 = fireball lvl1 on a 5+
-fireball2 = fireball lvl2 on a 10+
-fireball3 = fireball lvl3 on a 18+

It was basically a way of comparing dice spending strategies.

Example: you roll a 4 and 3 for the winds of magic granting you 7 power dice. You decide to use 4 dice on a fireball to distract you opponent saving 3 dice for a crucial miasma.

With a lvl1 wizard (without the ruby ring) you would cast a lvl 2 fireball with 4 dice on a 10+ which will be cast successfully 94% of the time. On average you would inflict 6.6 hits (chance of casting 0.94 x 7 the average roll of 2d6).

However with a lvl1 wizard who has the ruby ring you would cast a bound fireball on a 3+ with one die and a lvl 2 fireball with three dice. On average this would inflict 8.3 hits (the maths is a little bit more complicated).

In short what I was saying is that if you have X dice you will do more damage using the ruby ring and fireball rather "then just using a bigger fireball". Casting two spells instead of one and getting and extra "free d3" from kindleflame will also make this combination harder to dispel and and draw out more dispel dice.

Then I listed other advantages of using the Ruby Ring on a level 1 fire wizard. For example less chance of miscast as you are using less dice per spell etc.

I hope that's clearer. :D

Btw, I really like the video it had some very sound tactical advice.

dementian
08-10-2011, 03:41
Thanks for the post tma,

I am still a very new player and trying to make use of this information with my Skaven army. Using giant rats as chaff seemed to help me win deployment.

THELOSTCITY
14-10-2011, 10:16
If you're still after ideas on tactic vids one on army composition would be quite cool.

Basically weighing up the decision in regard to taking units that can take out tough armoured foes (WoC) or large numbers of little weak foes (goblins) how to balance a mix of those units into a reasonable lists. Tips on balances between numbers of combat units, redirectors etc.

Obviously there is no silver bullet/one answer, but looking at the key decisions and balances.

Personally I think a vid like that would be useful.

MOMUS
16-10-2011, 05:37
I watched these videos and found them very helpful.
Army composition would be good, you could also include some examples of mainly shooty, combat, deathstar and MSU armies and the pros and cons of each. As mentioned, how to deal with redirect troops would be useful too.

A note on clarity, do you write and plan out what you want to say before the video? I think it could help cut the waffle. :) Keep up the good work.

Varfur
21-10-2011, 08:31
As I am just trying to get into Fantasy i found this quite helpful. Thanks!

tmarichards
30-10-2011, 15:33
Had a lot of requests for a list building video, so I've put one up in the first post. Enjoy!

Lord Dan
03-11-2011, 16:41
Great video, though as an empire player I was surprised by a couple points. Why do you take flagellants over greatswords? Why not throw a ward save on your bsb and put him in a combat unit to save yourself 120 points on a swordsmen bunker?

tmarichards
03-11-2011, 21:38
The bunker lets you keep all your mages off the frontline, as well as keeping your general in the Discipline unit for the better ld bubble.

I went for flagellate because I think they benefit from Light more- it's not geared towards protracted combats, but instead a big blitz and one-phase removal of enemy units. Plus, they're core, which I always consider a bonus as well as being Unbreakable.

Again, these were just some first impressions- after some playtesting I may well decide to change units around and so on.

Ville
05-11-2011, 08:36
Just watched the first part and it was excellent! Useful stuff for both new and old players. I will definitely have to include redirecting more in my tactics.

And by the way, if you're inside UK Top 90, you are one heck of a player and more than competent to do these videos.