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SeerOfWar
24-09-2011, 20:33
I know the whole point of the imperial guard is that they are extremely expendable, but I dont see why that has too be the case. At least give them carapace armour instead of flack armour. And would it be to much to ask from an empire of pretty much infinite wealth and resources for something slightly more formidable than a lasgun? I dont know, I am somewhat ignorant when it comes to fluff :rolleyes:

2_heads_talking
24-09-2011, 20:50
Technically, a lasgun is a very dangerous weapon, regarded far more highly than slug throwing weapons; background descriptions routinely mention how lasfire will vaporise arms, legs and heads, however it is simply because the most popular army (space marines) carry the defining weapon of Warhammer 40K, the bolter, something that the lasgun could never hope to compete against.

Mr Zoat
24-09-2011, 21:05
The Imperium doesn't have infinite wealth. The individual worlds which outfit their Guard regements certainly don't. Besides, fluff descriptions for carapace armour describe it as very heavy and not really something you'd want to wear for long periods.

RBLFunk
24-09-2011, 21:16
Lasguns might be weak in the tabletop game but by most accounts they're very good weapons, better in many ways than contemporary assault rifles. Weapons more powerful than that are not suitable for standard issue to human infantry, without significant compromise. You really don't want to equip your soldiers with a gun that weighs any more than about 6 kilograms, or that's too powerful for the average soldier to fire rapidly with reasonable accuracy.

Carapace armour is a nice thought. Wasn't there a 'doctrine' or something in a previous version of the Imperial Guard rules that allowed you to give all your guardsmen a 4+ save?

Korraz
24-09-2011, 21:16
Flak Armor and Lasguns ARE the best equipment for their uses. They do their job very well. What are you going to do if you face a giant warrior firing an automatic rocket launcher and waring a tank as armor? No, lasguns are very dangerous and flak armor quite protective. AND they are cheaper to produce, easier to maintain and practically immune to malfunction. A Marine needs a Techmarine to repair his armor, an Aspect Warrior a Bonesinger and a Fire Warrior needs an Technician. A guardsman just patches it up with his repair kit and it's as good as new. That's the great thing about the Guard equipment: Field repairs suffice for that stuff to keep functioning for ages. You can field-repair a Power Armor only so long before you "upset its machine spirit."
Carapace armor is also much heavier and by comparison much more unwieldly. What would you prefer? Having a bit more armor, or being faster out of the fire corridor for said automatic rapid fire missile launchers and artillery?

Erazmus_M_Wattle
24-09-2011, 21:22
The imperium does have infinite wealth. Though that wealth is the men. The imperium isn't going to waste resources on brilliant equipment. It doesn't care if a guardsman could have better armour and a better gun. If he dies there are another twenty guys ready to take his place. The lasguns and flak are cheap and easy to produce. The fighting men are the wealth.

Denny
24-09-2011, 21:29
Lasguns are also very easy to recharge (the Necromunda rulebook mentions that lasgun powerpacks can be recharged by being exposed to light or heat, and in an emergency thrown in a camp-fire).

When you consider the vast number of guardsmen, all requiring supplies and support, using weapons that are so robust and dependable makes total sense.

mob16151
24-09-2011, 22:10
Most 20th century militaries follow the same doctrine, when it comes to thier grunts. You want to spend the minimum neccesary, while still fielding troops that are combat effective.

Tastyfish
24-09-2011, 23:06
I know the whole point of the imperial guard is that they are extremely expendable, but I dont see why that has too be the case. At least give them carapace armour instead of flack armour. And would it be to much to ask from an empire of pretty much infinite wealth and resources for something slightly more formidable than a lasgun? I dont know, I am somewhat ignorant when it comes to fluff :rolleyes:

The Imperium can drown you in flesh and blood, but is somewhat hamstrung my their rules when it comes to equipping their soldiers (though lasguns and flak armour are insanely good compared to modern military examples - we're talking almost total efficiency energy transfer from burning wood to solar powdered battle tanks).

They seem to have some crazy rules that probably stem from the Crusade and that it's a mutual defence pact as much as a system of government. The Imperium isn't the US, or even the EU or the UK - it's NATO at the very best.

The charters that declares a colony to be independant must be the most sacrosanct document in the Imperium, it's the same rules that bind the Adeptus Mechanicus to the service of Terra writ large. If your charter says you are a medievalist colony that has left Decadon 9 to live out a purer lifestyle, then Terra respects that and will set tithes appropriately (probably men - hence why they have such a surfeit). The Ad Admin will not actively challenge this though there are probably legions of archivists that seek to overrule these documents or ferment change within the planets themselves.

Shifting to a more efficient 'Imperial style' world is obviously an internal matter for the planet itself but pressure can be placed if you know what you want to do with it. At the same time there are likely Technomagos who are seeking to do the same, and annex planets 'voluntarily' away from Terra in favour of Mars (or even Transliterati working in favour of Ophelia) so unless needs must the highest calling of the Administratums Promotors and Advocatii is to defend the sovereign rights of Imperial worlds whether they are libertarian feudalist, nomadic desert tribes or demarchist collectives.

Turn your back for a second, or fail to read the fine print on that tithe renegotiation you asked for, and welcome to the Cult Mechanicus, Ophelian Diocese or Federation of Necromundan Client Worlds. Goodbye horselords...

KingDeath
24-09-2011, 23:43
Both the lasgun and flak armour are rather good at what they do.
The former is reasonably powerful and very reliable ( not to mention the relatively simple logistics behind it ) and flak armour offers at least some basic protection against "normal" small arms ( get hit in the chest by a bullet without flakarmour and your are most likely dead, with flakarmour you might survive with a few broken ribs and fight again ).
Both also require only basic training and maintenance to use and are quite cheap and simple to produce.

Chem-Dog
25-09-2011, 00:27
I know the whole point of the imperial guard is that they are extremely expendable, but I dont see why that has too be the case. At least give them carapace armour instead of flack armour. And would it be to much to ask from an empire of pretty much infinite wealth and resources for something slightly more formidable than a lasgun? I dont know, I am somewhat ignorant when it comes to fluff :rolleyes:

As others have said, the Imperium's not actually made of money, it has wealth and resource far in excess of anything we could draw a meaningful comparison with but it also has costs that are equally unfathomable and controlling it all is a huge unweildy bureaucracy that's probably as in the dark about the overall state of play as anyone.

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is no fiscal overview.

The Imperial Guard serve a very real duty in the background of underlining how truly unimportant the individual is to the machinations of the Imperium.

This is one of my favourite 40K quotes, it's quite apt in this situation.
"...I don't care if every man jack of them forgets his own mother's name and wets himself, they must still know how to hold a line, fire and reload, adore the Emperor and respond to orders."


Lasguns might be weak in the tabletop game but by most accounts they're very good weapons, better in many ways than contemporary assault rifles. Weapons more powerful than that are not suitable for standard issue to human infantry, without significant compromise. You really don't want to equip your soldiers with a gun that weighs any more than about 6 kilograms, or that's too powerful for the average soldier to fire rapidly with reasonable accuracy.

True. Additionally there's the durability of lasguns, it's not hard to maintain with the bare minimum of training and, extremely importantly, it they aren't anywhere near as logistics reliant as a "Solid round" weapon of equal power.


Carapace armour is a nice thought. Wasn't there a 'doctrine' or something in a previous version of the Imperial Guard rules that allowed you to give all your guardsmen a 4+ save?

Yep, the Carapace Doctrine did represent an elite unit. Much as it does now, Veteran Squads can still be given Carapace.

Mr_Rose
25-09-2011, 00:31
An excellent point Tastyfish. The Imperium doesn't actually govern that many worlds…Terra, obviously, along with most of the solar system, except Mars and Titan, and probably a few sector capitols here and there, but generally it's a feudal federation more than a capitalist union. Individual worlds or sub-sectors govern themselves and pay as little attention to the wider Imperium as they can get away with. Remember, the population of the Imperium is human; how many humans do you know who regularly look up at the sky at night and wonder what's going on up there? As opposed to who was booted off <a talent show> last night or what <a politician> is going to do about <their problem>? Hell, how many people give a damn about what's going on in the next county over, never mind some backwater they couldn't find on a map if it were the only place on it? Why do you think these proportions would change much if they were aware that there were a million other worlds full of people out there in space?
Anyway, it seems quite likely that the vast majority of the civilians on the vast majority of Imperial worlds are, if not ignorant of, then vastly disassociated from the Imperium as a whole, and what it does. In fact, given that we know that worlds with roughly feudal technological states are regularly left ignorant of the existence of other human worlds and just have their local superstitions subverted to align with Imperial propaganda, the very existence of the Imperium as a super-planetary government may well be regarded as less of a pan-galactic defence force and more of a reason to raise taxes again this year, possibly with a number of conspiracy theorists that deny it even exists…

Becoming a Guardsman must be one he'll of a shock for anyone that comes from a self-sufficient technological world like modern Earth (actually the majority of Imperial worlds—hives are outliers really) as all those half-forgotten history lessons suddenly snap into crystal focus the first time you see your own world from above and realise you're never going back.

FashaTheDog
25-09-2011, 01:39
My initial response upon seeing this thread was "like hell the men of Krieg do." I mean they're not even given names, just serial numbers for ease of casualty counts and that is official fluff.

Actually the equipment carried by Guardsmen is actually better than if they were issued carapace armor and bolters. There are several reasons, some of which have already been pointed out, the first being that the equipment as other pointed out is simple, durable, and easy to maintain. This is important as many Imperial worlds might never see anything remotely as advanced except to those citizens conscripted into the Imperial Guard. Another important reason is weight.

From Dark Heresy:

Scourge pattern Bolter: 10 kg
4 Bolter Magazines: 4 kg
Stormtrooper Carapace Armor: 17 kg
Total: 31 kg

Mars pattern Mk III Short Lasgun: 4 kg
4 Lasgun Charge Packs: 1.6 kg
Guard Flak Armor: 11 kg
Total: 16.6 kg

Now add some equipment to that:
1 Frag Grenade: .5 kg
Combat Knife: .8 kg
9-70 Entrenching Tool: 2 kg
Backpack: 2 kg
The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer: .3 kg
Infantry Lamp Pack: 1 kg
Mess Kit: .5 kg
Personal Grooming Kit: .1 kg
Uniform: 3 kg
Weapon Maintenance Kit: 1 kg
Combat Rations: 1 kg/meal, assumed 3 meals carried
Respirator/Gas Mask: .5 kg
Total: 12.6 kg

That means that your average Guardsman has 29.2 kg of weight to carry and there are numerous regiments that issue additional equipment and/or lack transport. If you have Guardsmen armed with bolters and carapace armor, the weight increases to 43.6 kg. These numbers do not include any extra water or food in excess of a day and is likely light on equipment. Either way the better armed Guardsman will be fatigued faster than his current counterpart.

There is also an important note to be taken on Imperial attitudes towards humans; they are a cheap, plentiful, and renewable resource. Rather than spend time and expense with intensive training programs for well armed and armored soldiers, it is quicker and cheaper to push Guardsmen through training, sometimes entirely done en route from their homeworld to a battlezone (see 15 Hours for an example of this). This way the Imperium can utilizes the quality of quantity at a low cost and easily replace any losses. There are also numerous examples in the fluff about how the equipment a Guardsman carries is of greater value than the Guardsman himself (Imperial Armor 5, Imperial Munitorium Manual). When you factor in that all costs must be made across an organization of tens, if not hundreds, of billions then any cost or time increases are truly substantial. All told, it makes the current Guardmen's armament more than sufficient.

theJ
25-09-2011, 13:23
Fact also remains that against the forces your average guardsman is expected to face, they typically win.
Most regiments spend their entire existances fighting minor xeno races, Orkz, and most commonly of all, rebels. Against all of these foes, a Lasgun is more than enough to kill, and Flak Armour should save your life against most attacks ('cept if them orkzes get in close, but in that case, carapace ain't gonna save ya' either).

It's only when we start comparing them to "the big league", such as Eldar, Necrons, Daemons or marines that the guard start to look bad.
Remember, it was because there is no feasible way for any unaugmented human to fight such horrific foes and win* that the Emperor created the space marines. It was true back in the crusade, and it is still true now. Handing out bigger guns or a giant suit of armour is not going to be sufficient to change that fact.

*Exceptions will always exist, of course. There are exceptional humans out there, and no matter how outmatched most humans will be one on one, there's a lot more of us than there are of them...

MagosHereticus
26-09-2011, 02:28
guardsmen are better armed and armoured than US marines, with powerful weapons that wont fail them, which keep working without maintenance and ammo that is rechargeable in the field and flak armour is better than a kevlar vest, not to mention each soldier is issued grenades and solid rations, guardsmen are well taken care of

you just dont appreciate who and what they are fighting

FashaTheDog
26-09-2011, 05:15
Perhaps a compare and contrast of few major races may be in order inspired by MagosHereticus' last sentence.

Guardsman: Normal human armed with a weapon that the fluff has vaporizing parts of people protected by armor capable of stopping said weapon.

Astartes (Space Marine): Two meter tall, genetically enhanced superhuman capable of punching through solid steel and moving far faster than any human is capable for long periods of time, spitting corrosive poison, able to comfortably withstand heat and cold fatal to normal humans while shrugging off injuries that would outright kill a normal human. Armed with a weapon that is capable of destroying light vehicles and armored in a fully enclosed powered armor that not only provides fluff immunity from most small arms, but also further enhances their physical capabilities.

Orks: Massive bipedal fungus capable of not even noticing loss of limbs or vital organs possessing inhuman strength and a genetically inherited technical knowledge, crude though it may be. Not only that, but they are capable of accepting replacement limbs in nearly any form, be it a random Ork one or a ramshackle mechanical limb or even a brain transplant of a Squiq (which is basically a big ferocious mouth with legs). Not only that, but they shed spores continuously that grow into new Orks, including smaller organisms such as Squiqs, Gretchin, and Snots so that Orky civilization can thrive everywhere.

Daemons: The fluff describes them as not being entire corporeal and partially exempt from some laws of physics at times, with attacks of all powers harmlessly passing through them before they return with attacks that literally sunder reality. They are as varied as your nightmares and far more deadly. Worse yet, you can't truly kill them, merely banish them back to the Immaterium until they get another chance to cause death and destruction and consume the souls of those they slay.

Tyranids: A single entity composed of trillions upon trillions of organisms at all levels from massive the Dominatrix to the sharp-fanged borer beetles of the fleshborers. The Hive Mind is capable of evolving organisms to suit the specific environment literally on demand. In Warriors of Ultramar, the first wave froze to death seconds upon making planet fall, but before they did the next wave was already modified to survive the cold longer. The creatures include massive titan sized beasts and living tanks capable of withstanding firepower that would destroy entire cities while returning in kind, some of which are stated as having survived the destruction of the planet they were on. Even the worlds invaded are subverted to have flora grow rapidly out of control and their seeded with spores that choke and poison the fauna, including the human defenders. What does Tyranids eat? The entire biomass of a planet, so much that the planet loses considerable and quite noticeable mass. To top it off, the current unstoppable wave is estimated to be the vanguard force of a much larger invasion.

Necrons: A race that transfered their consciousness into highly advanced robotic chassis armed with guns that literally shred their targets one molecule at a time in a heartbeat. They are lead by being who consume stars and entire races for whom the laws of physics are completely optional. They are still reawakening as they had to hibernate to prevent themselves from starving after consuming too much life, leaving very little left.

Eldar: An ancient race with inborn psychic powers so great that 10,000 year prior they birthed a Chaos god in their hedonism. The birth scar of that is now the Eye of Terror, a place many solar systems in size where reality and the Immaterium mingle freely. Long lived, they are far faster than any human, in some cases moving faster than the human eye can even follow. Some, the Craftworld Eldar, grow their technology from a psychoplastic-like substance known as Wraithbone that suits all of the construction needs from spaceships to weapons. Their darker kin, who apparently didn't get the memo about not birthing gods for pleasure, employ weapons designed to inflict pain. So adept are there may not be any real limit to their depravity in doing so, in fact there can't be as they must literally inflict ever greater pain on others just to survive.

There is more, but as a brief summary, its not that the weapons are inferior as others have pointed out, but more that the enemy has been cranked up to eleven and then given an extra boost for good measure. It would be like the US Army of WWII facing the modern US Army.

massey
26-09-2011, 13:09
Most guardsmen are equipped with weapons and armor similar to that in use by militaries today. Yes, I know that people say lasguns are super-deadly and vaporize people in one shot. Those people are wrong. A lasgun is most similar to an AK-47/M-16. Think the guns that Stormtroopers carry in Star Wars. Guy gets hit, smoke rises from his chest and he falls down.

Why do they use weapons like that? Because it's good enough to kill 99% of the enemies they face. Most of the time, Guard will be fighting other humans. Forget about the 4+ to wound mechanic, that's just game stuff. Background wise, getting shot with a lasgun is like getting shot with an assault rifle. Most people hit will die. That's good enough for the Imperial Guard. Even orks will normally be killed by a good lasgun hit. Yeah, you hit an ork in the shoulder and he might howl in pain and keep coming, but shoot him in the chest or the head and he'll drop.

Could you go with a bigger weapon like a bolter? Sure, but you've already reached the point of diminishing returns. Is it worth going to a much bulkier, heavier, more expensive system just to raise your kill rate from 90% to 98%? Not really, especially when you can just send more guard.

Bolters are great for shooting things like Ork Nobs, or Tyranid Warriors, or heavily armored guys like Chaos Marines or Aspect Warriors. Your average Guardsman will never see an opponent anything like that. He will spend his days on a hive world hunting down rebels.

Sephiroth
26-09-2011, 13:30
I know the whole point of the imperial guard is that they are extremely expendable, but I dont see why that has too be the case.

Why do Eldar have to be a dying race?
Why do the Tau have to be dynamic and full of optimism?
Why do the Tyranids need to consume worlds?

It's part of the faction's theme and character.

Sai-Lauren
26-09-2011, 15:53
Also, if Guard up armour themselves, all the other races would start loading up with armour piercing rounds, and pretty soon, we're all back to where we started.

So, yes, Guard armour does get better (the Imperium isn't technologically stagnant, merely advancing glacially slowly), but everyone else's weapons also get better in order to counteract that improvement.

Korraz
26-09-2011, 19:00
Except for (possibly) Tau and Orks, all races already have reached and surpassed the peak of their tech. Otherwise, Eldar Guardians would already run around with S6 AP3 catapults.

Sai-Lauren
27-09-2011, 08:30
Not really, it's more like what was S4 AP 5 last year (or decade/century) would now be S3 AP6 by comparison with todays S4 AP5.

After all, you don't think that Bonesingers aren't mentally tweaking the capabilities of the Catapults and ammunition cores they generate, that the Dark Mechanicus aren't studying Mk VII power armour and incorporating the improvements in protection in new suits and so on.

Korraz
27-09-2011, 11:00
One of the great themes of 40k is stagnation. Nobody, except for Tau and Orks (and Tyranids, but that doesn't count), is inventing much anymore. In the last 11 000 years, nearly nothing has changed.

Mr_Rose
27-09-2011, 11:35
One of the great themes of 40k is stagnation. Nobody, except for Tau and Orks (and Tyranids, but that doesn't count), is inventing much anymore. In the last 11 000 years, nearly nothing has changed.
Well, the Dark Eldar have been highly inventive in their own way too...but mostly in the realm of sustaining a life in pain.
Actually though, the DE have had to keep re-inventing their stuff since while they have all the technological know-how of their ancestors (which was vast beyond the wildest dreams of the Mechnicum) they don't have their super-materials (wraithbone and all the other psycho-plastics craftworlders use) any more so they have to make do and mend with inferior materials like titanium.
Its kind of bizarre actually, how they've managed to maintain a sort of "dynamic stasis" over the years.

Sai-Lauren
27-09-2011, 12:19
It's not stagnation, it's glacially slow improvement, whether it's (focussing solely on the Imperium here) different marks of Power Armour (4 through 5 and 6 to 7 and even 8), recovered STC like the Lightning or the knife mentioned in First and Only, or field alterations like the Predator Destructor.

KingDeath
27-09-2011, 13:04
It's not stagnation, it's glacially slow improvement, whether it's (focussing solely on the Imperium here) different marks of Power Armour (4 through 5 and 6 to 7 and even 8), recovered STC like the Lightning or the knife mentioned in First and Only, or field alterations like the Predator Destructor.

Yet at the same time much technology is getting lost/ becoming increasingly rare. Be it the highly advanced engines necessary for many grandcruisers, high grade plasma weaponry, the scartix coil, the vanquisher canon or stasis technology.

TrueKin
28-09-2011, 16:41
Well, the Dark Eldar have been highly inventive in their own way too...but mostly in the realm of sustaining a life in pain.
Actually though, the DE have had to keep re-inventing their stuff since while they have all the technological know-how of their ancestors (which was vast beyond the wildest dreams of the Mechnicum) they don't have their super-materials (wraithbone and all the other psycho-plastics craftworlders use) any more so they have to make do and mend with inferior materials like titanium.
Its kind of bizarre actually, how they've managed to maintain a sort of "dynamic stasis" over the years.

Dark Eldar in general are geniuses in coming up with new ways to hurt, kill and torture others. They also have the problem that while a new way to hurt is more exciting and vitalizing than an old one, it won't stay new. Thus, they have to come up with new ideas all the time.

Lisiecki
28-09-2011, 17:05
Imperial Guardsmen are not cannon fodder. Imperial Guardsmen are taken from the top 10% of PDFs.

Conscripts are cannon fodder


I know the whole point of the imperial guard is that they are extremely expendable, but I dont see why that has too be the case. At least give them carapace armour instead of flack armour. And would it be to much to ask from an empire of pretty much infinite wealth and resources for something slightly more formidable than a lasgun? I dont know, I am somewhat ignorant when it comes to fluff :rolleyes:

Eumerin
28-09-2011, 18:58
Not really, it's more like what was S4 AP 5 last year (or decade/century) would now be S3 AP6 by comparison with todays S4 AP5.

So THAT'S why the Shurikat has become a progressively worse weapon in every edition!

;)

FashaTheDog
29-09-2011, 00:14
Imperial Guardsmen are not cannon fodder. Imperial Guardsmen are taken from the top 10% of PDFs.

Conscripts are cannon fodder

The Death Korps of Krieg begs to differ. In fact they don't beg, they just send wave after wave of nameless men to their death to prove the point by chainsword and bayonet.

To quote Imperial Armour Volume 5 under the Cult of Sacrifice: "To the Departmento Munitorum, a Krieg soldier is a weapon to be used and expended as needed. To the Krieg commanders, battles are won by the merciless application of overwhelming force. The doctrine dictates that any battle where the capacity to fight and willingness to die exceeds that of their enemy is a battle already won - everything else is a matter of time and attrition." Later under the Commissars' section it states that Commissar are not really there to enforce discipline as they are more often needed to prevent Krieg commanders from expending too many men in short term victories not necessary to the larger campaign.

It might also be worth noting for sake of context that Krieg has but one purpose, raising regiments of battle hardened soldiers; in the order of tens of regiments a year as opposed to the typical one or so every decade that most similar sized world tithe. As Imperial Armour 5 points out the tithe levels are set at the maximum level possible for their population, which is aided by the eugenics programs and 'Vitae-Womb' birthing techniques of the Adeptus Biologis. As such they don't really have a PDF as the population of Krieg is created in vast numbers to sustain their universal conscription program. While they are different than most regiments, there are plenty of fluff examples of a similar mentality, such as Commander Kubrik Chenkov of Valhalla who has been known to clear minefields by marching his men through them, and he's been decorated for this.

MagosHereticus
29-09-2011, 04:48
The Death Korps of Krieg begs to differ. In fact they don't beg, they just send wave after wave of nameless men to their death to prove the point by chainsword and bayonet.

To quote Imperial Armour Volume 5 under the Cult of Sacrifice: "To the Departmento Munitorum, a Krieg soldier is a weapon to be used and expended as needed. To the Krieg commanders, battles are won by the merciless application of overwhelming force. The doctrine dictates that any battle where the capacity to fight and willingness to die exceeds that of their enemy is a battle already won - everything else is a matter of time and attrition." Later under the Commissars' section it states that Commissar are not really there to enforce discipline as they are more often needed to prevent Krieg commanders from expending too many men in short term victories not necessary to the larger campaign.

It might also be worth noting for sake of context that Krieg has but one purpose, raising regiments of battle hardened soldiers; in the order of tens of regiments a year as opposed to the typical one or so every decade that most similar sized world tithe. As Imperial Armour 5 points out the tithe levels are set at the maximum level possible for their population, which is aided by the eugenics programs and 'Vitae-Womb' birthing techniques of the Adeptus Biologis. As such they don't really have a PDF as the population of Krieg is created in vast numbers to sustain their universal conscription program. While they are different than most regiments, there are plenty of fluff examples of a similar mentality, such as Commander Kubrik Chenkov of Valhalla who has been known to clear minefields by marching his men through them, and he's been decorated for this.

yet even kriegsmen are given quality armour and quality weapons, every kriegsmen is given the chance to not just die for the emperor but live for him too, to fight the glorious fight and triumph

Aliarzathanil
29-09-2011, 06:51
The guard does equip some of its soldiers with better armor and guns; they're called stormtroopers, and there's probably quite a few of them.

FashaTheDog
29-09-2011, 17:03
yet even kriegsmen are given quality armour and quality weapons, every kriegsmen is given the chance to not just die for the emperor but live for him too, to fight the glorious fight and triumph

Sure they are given Lucius pattern lasguns, shoulder pads that buckle to their uniform, and a mark IX standard issue helmet, but their greatcoats and respirators are required items for survival on Krieg's surface. Sure there are survivors from victorious campaigns, but per the fluff, the ultimate goal of every soldier from Krieg is to die for the Emperor, which makes survival just a delay of their goal;something to strive for in the next battle. The fact that they are not given names only serial numbers so as to aid in compilation of casualty rosters is also indicative of the fact that all men of Krieg are meant to be expended like ammunition (a paraphrase of official fluff). Those that show particular skill and luck in surviving get promoted to the Grenadiers; similar to Stormtroopers of other Guard units, but the key difference is again Krieg's attitude towards its soldiers. Unlike normal Stormtroopers who are not cast lightly into battle, Grenadiers are thrown first into the hardest targets to soften them up for the main attack, as such they suffer higher casualties than normal Krieg units. Only those that survive this can go on to be Watchmasters (sergeants) and if they live long enough, perhaps officers where they are given a name. Even their officers are considered expendable, often leading from the front and not given any additional protection such as a refractor field as it is contrary to their methods of warfare.

MagosHereticus
29-09-2011, 17:43
Sure they are given Lucius pattern lasguns, shoulder pads that buckle to their uniform, and a mark IX standard issue helmet, but their greatcoats and respirators are required items for survival on Krieg's surface. Sure there are survivors from victorious campaigns, but per the fluff, the ultimate goal of every soldier from Krieg is to die for the Emperor, which makes survival just a delay of their goal;something to strive for in the next battle. The fact that they are not given names only serial numbers so as to aid in compilation of casualty rosters is also indicative of the fact that all men of Krieg are meant to be expended like ammunition (a paraphrase of official fluff). Those that show particular skill and luck in surviving get promoted to the Grenadiers; similar to Stormtroopers of other Guard units, but the key difference is again Krieg's attitude towards its soldiers. Unlike normal Stormtroopers who are not cast lightly into battle, Grenadiers are thrown first into the hardest targets to soften them up for the main attack, as such they suffer higher casualties than normal Krieg units. Only those that survive this can go on to be Watchmasters (sergeants) and if they live long enough, perhaps officers where they are given a name. Even their officers are considered expendable, often leading from the front and not given any additional protection such as a refractor field as it is contrary to their methods of warfare.

and at not point are they lacking in the tools required to complete their assigned task

massey
30-09-2011, 01:26
Fact is it depends on your guard regiment. Many are cannon fodder. Most are no better than generic sci-fi soldiers. A handful, like Elysian Drop Troops, are described as elite. But if I were to have an Elysian army, my guys would only be a half step above running around firing their guns into the ground screaming "Co-braaaaaaa!!!!"

There are a million worlds out there. There's enough room for everyone to have their own type of guard.

BF110C4
30-09-2011, 01:47
Plus on the Novel of Dead Men Walking, the Kriegs use the locals conscripts as cannon folder, and when the local gobernor complains they ask him who would he wanted to defend his planet, barely trained PDF or the Battle hardened Kriegs that survived the battle.

To their credit on the same book Krieg Storm Troopers do suicide charges in order to give the rest of the platoon time to relocate their heavy weapons, and even the Coronel of a Krieg Regiment goes to the front to add his firepower once the rest of the reserves are expended.

Col. Tartleton
30-09-2011, 22:35
A Lasgun is a laser weapon that causes damage roughly equivalent to a fifty caliber hollow point that can also cut into body armor. Ie. if you hit them in the elbow they lose the forearm. If the shoulder they lose the arm. If the knee they lose the leg, if the head they lose the better part of it, if the chest they die. It's got like 120 shots per magazine which can recharge in the sunlight. The laser is so intense it will either cut or ricochet off armor or walls etc. Its solid construction, no moving parts besides the trigger mechanism, almost indestructible, and solid and heavy enough to beat someone to death. It boasts a brutal sword bayonet which can probably cut a man in half or dismember a full sized ork. The man behind it is a well trained indoctrinated warrior who will generally fight to the death if only because he knows there is no quarter to be given or to give. Sun Tzu had a term called "Death Ground" which is almost 100% of the time where Guardsmen are fighting. Basically the sorts of situations where men have the choice between insane heroism or certain death. Luckily they always choose insanity...

Flak armor is far beyond the Kevlar vests of today. Remembering how hardcore the lasgun I just described was remember than 6+ Armor (which in the case of Orks is solid plates of plasteel and ceramite across their body) will stop it reliably and Flak Armor is an even better material which defends against man killing lasers, bursts of solid munitions, shrapnel, bladed weapons, etc. The Cadian Plate Armor stuff is Flak Armor. Carapace armor is basically solid Ceramite across your whole body. Then Power Armor is like a mix of adamantium and ceramite like a guard tank, and then Terminator Armor is like solid adamantium with plates of ceramite over it to make it fireproof and heat resistant. The sort of weapon that can reliably penetrate Flak armor is a bolter which is in the same category of weapons as the armor piercing autocannons we currently mount on armored vehicles and aircraft that can shoot through tanks...

The Imperial Guard would destroy the USMC in a conflict with less men. Space Marines are not even worth fighting against, you will lose. They can reliably inflict a hundred casualties per marine in combat if you allow them to. And I'm not saying 100 enemy casualties per marine casualty I'm just saying 100 casualties period, with no mention of what the Marines may or may not get back. (I've always taken the 10 men per marine thing as like a squad of guardsmen in a fight with one marine would be fair and with more marines you've got a force multiplier) The Marines biggest weakness is how much ammo they can carry. Unfortunately they're even better in hand to hand. I mean if you send a division against a company and there are no survivors you've probably made a mistake. As long as they can keep themselves supplied you'll keep losing division after division until you're losing entire corps and army groups... Where does it end? And Emperor forbid they deploy as an entire chapter...

Ivan Zhuk
30-09-2011, 23:03
This

http://populnks.com/view/gaming_industry/The_Cadian_M_35_Galaxy_Lasgun/11034476

baphomael
01-10-2011, 17:55
Sure they are given Lucius pattern lasguns, shoulder pads that buckle to their uniform, and a mark IX standard issue helmet, but their greatcoats and respirators are required items for survival on Krieg's surface. Sure there are survivors from victorious campaigns, but per the fluff, the ultimate goal of every soldier from Krieg is to die for the Emperor, which makes survival just a delay of their goal;something to strive for in the next battle. The fact that they are not given names only serial numbers so as to aid in compilation of casualty rosters is also indicative of the fact that all men of Krieg are meant to be expended like ammunition (a paraphrase of official fluff). Those that show particular skill and luck in surviving get promoted to the Grenadiers; similar to Stormtroopers of other Guard units, but the key difference is again Krieg's attitude towards its soldiers. Unlike normal Stormtroopers who are not cast lightly into battle, Grenadiers are thrown first into the hardest targets to soften them up for the main attack, as such they suffer higher casualties than normal Krieg units. Only those that survive this can go on to be Watchmasters (sergeants) and if they live long enough, perhaps officers where they are given a name. Even their officers are considered expendable, often leading from the front and not given any additional protection such as a refractor field as it is contrary to their methods of warfare.

And when you clime up the Krieg chain of command, you begin to see less and less Krieg officers - they have to draft in off-world officers because most native Kriegers don't live long enough to be promoted in that way.


and at not point are they lacking in the tools required to complete their assigned task

The tools, like the bodies carrying them, are pretty cheap to produce. Not quite as cheap as a human life, but still pretty cheap. Besides, then you just send the Quartermasters in to strip the bodies of the last wave to equip the next batch of clones.

FashaTheDog
02-10-2011, 05:09
And when you clime up the Krieg chain of command, you begin to see less and less Krieg officers - they have to draft in off-world officers because most native Kriegers don't live long enough to be promoted in that way.

I haven't seen that; where's that bit of fluff from? The only things I can find about non-Krieg members of the Death Korps are Commissars as per IA5 and advisors (Astropaths, Fleet Officers, et al) as per the FAQ. Imperial Armour 5 gives no indication of any shortage, although it does note that when Krieg officers are placed in charge of non-Krieg units their attrition warfare causes morale problems.

MagosHereticus
02-10-2011, 06:39
The tools, like the bodies carrying them, are pretty cheap to produce. Not quite as cheap as a human life, but still pretty cheap. Besides, then you just send the Quartermasters in to strip the bodies of the last wave to equip the next batch of clones.

the equipment is not cheap on the scale of the imperial guard, it consumes enormous amounts of resources to keep the guard so equip, but they do it anyway so that the endless supply of men are not thrown away without any hope of completing their task

the existence of the quartermaster shows the the gear is highly valued and the munitorium handbook and imperial infantrymens uplifting primer makes a point of how the gear is the first priority in rescue missions, and that it is a serious crime to mishandle your equipment or lose it

Sai-Lauren
03-10-2011, 12:09
the equipment is not cheap on the scale of the imperial guard, it consumes enormous amounts of resources to keep the guard so equip, but they do it anyway so that the endless supply of men are not thrown away without any hope of completing their task

Well, cheap per person, but when you consider a line regiment is somewhere on the order of 10,000 people... ;)

I did try working out the cost of a guard squads equipment a while back, using Necromunda prices (on the basis that guard might get it in bulk cheaper, but all the non-listed equipment like water bottles, webbing and comms gear will easily make up the difference), and I think I got it out to about 1,000 - 1,200 credits per squad - before supplies, ammunition etc.

So, call it 7,000 credits for a full platoon (5 squads + command, who'll need better comms gear than can be included in the general cost), and a ballpark 70,000 for a company (6 platoons + company HQ + support teams) - call it a million credits simply to equip a single line infantry regiment, and not to maintain it?

How many regiments could somewhere like Necromunda raise in a single year? With the population size and birth rates, you could probably start 1/hive/month and just about keep the population stable - so call it 150 infantry regiments a year for a Hive World?

That's a lot of credits or their equivalents in raw materials spent.

Mr_Rose
03-10-2011, 12:42
Also, remember that the stuff that makes its way downhive is more likely to be either surplus or discards from the Hive manufactories, since Necromunda is mostly a giant lasgun factory, so is probably less than the list price for an actual guard-issue lasgun, since it's more likely to have a manufacturing flaw and the underhive market simply won't bear a higher price.
Ditto other equipment.

FashaTheDog
03-10-2011, 14:40
How many regiments could somewhere like Necromunda raise in a single year? With the population size and birth rates, you could probably start 1/hive/month and just about keep the population stable - so call it 150 infantry regiments a year for a Hive World?

As I pointed out already, Krieg is a world devoted in its entirety to producing regiments of soldiers only puts out tens of regiments a year. It has no other purpose, no other industry whatsoever. When you factor in the fact the not everyone is suitable/available for service and that the training and loss associated with it takes a toll, I would imagine that most worlds only raise a regiment every few years and larger hive worlds would likely produce a single regiment or two every year at most. This also takes into consideration the fact that the population must also produce things other than soldiers and those industries are also required to be maintained and if possible, expanded.

Sai-Lauren
04-10-2011, 10:58
Also, remember that the stuff that makes its way downhive is more likely to be either surplus or discards from the Hive manufactories, since Necromunda is mostly a giant lasgun factory, so is probably less than the list price for an actual guard-issue lasgun, since it's more likely to have a manufacturing flaw and the underhive market simply won't bear a higher price.
Ditto other equipment.

Or they could be stolen from the factories, supplied by the industrial families under the table, family heirlooms, or salvaged equipment from other gangs, or pawned for the price of a bottle of wild snake, or something constructed by the gang's heavy, using found odds and ends and a few bought rare items. The price a gang pays for that weapon is still the same.

And even if they are cut-price bits of rubbish, the prices are still fairly relevant IMO, simply because the Munitorium is placing massive contracts (100's of thousands of lasguns, flak armour, helmets, webbing, water bottles, boots, socks...), and thus can negociate very good prices, which the manufacturers will be able to achieve via mass industrialisation and the associated economies of scale.


As I pointed out already, Krieg is a world devoted in its entirety to producing regiments of soldiers only puts out tens of regiments a year. It has no other purpose, no other industry whatsoever. When you factor in the fact the not everyone is suitable/available for service and that the training and loss associated with it takes a toll, I would imagine that most worlds only raise a regiment every few years and larger hive worlds would likely produce a single regiment or two every year at most. This also takes into consideration the fact that the population must also produce things other than soldiers and those industries are also required to be maintained and if possible, expanded.
Necromunda pretty much has billions in a single Hive. Even if we take 1 billion per hive, and a birth rate of 1%, that's still 10 million additional people per year, per hive.

Even if the guard only takes 1% of them, that's 10 additional line infantry regiments per hive/year. How many hives are there on the planet?

And even at that level, it's not many generations until you have massive population pressures, accompanied by food shortages and riots, general anarchy and so on - as I've posited before, Guard regiment raising on hive worlds may actually be a method of population control - and the Navy might also regularly send the press gangs down and take hundreds or thousands of people in a single go with the tacit authorisation of the hive rulers simply to help maintain the general population levels, and incidentally get rid of undesirable elements.

What is Krieg's population anyway? Even with the vitae wombs, if there's not a high population there in the first place - especially of women (and some of the population may not be viable for use through radiological or chemical contamination) - then you're not going to get many people out the other end.

Plus Siege regiments could well be on the order of 50-100,000 in strength, great big unwieldy units designed to sit in one place, take massive casualties and still hold the line without any inter-regimental issues (who's covering which area, differences in opinions about the best way to proceed and so on), whilst a 10,000 strong line regiment has some endurance whilst being much more flexible, and a 2-3,000 strong scout regiment can't take many casualties at all, but is broken down into very small units to support all the other units in the warzone.

10's of regiments from Krieg may still number in the millions of individuals taken every year - but just because that's all they produce doesn't mean that they're the highest producers.

Palvinore
04-10-2011, 11:05
Minea, from the BRB, is given as a typical hive world example.

Its planetary draft is given as 1,249,000 per annum. Assuming roughly 8,000 men like the Cadian 8th (given in the 4th edition IG Codex), that is 156 full regiments per year. That is far more than the "a single regiment or two every year at most". The evidence shows this.

MagosHereticus
04-10-2011, 12:37
were do the munitorium labour corps come from? they are not actually guardsmen, are they tithed along with actual fighting forces?

Sai-Lauren
04-10-2011, 13:08
Sorry, I've never heard of them, got a reference?

FashaTheDog
04-10-2011, 13:29
Seems I stand corrected on the regiments.


were do the munitorium labour corps come from? they are not actually guardsmen, are they tithed along with actual fighting forces?

The Munitorium labor corps on Vraks were indigenous to that world, but other than that I have not seen other references to the source.

MagosHereticus
05-10-2011, 02:55
Seems I stand corrected on the regiments.



The Munitorium labor corps on Vraks were indigenous to that world, but other than that I have not seen other references to the source.

what about the legions of support personal on the loyalist side? the ones which got press-ganged into the fleet during the disastrous chaos fleet attack

SpaceTiger
18-10-2011, 09:39
Here is my answer:


“We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible
for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long with so little,
that we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.”

– Ancient Guardsman’s saying

Now just because the Kreig prefer to fight like how they fought the Vraks war doesn't mean every IG does this. Like below:

This excerpt from the witness report of an Imperial Guardsman of 632nd Ganf Magna Regiment details an
unconventional Trygon assault on a prepared position at Table Mountain on Phonos.
++++++ Excerpt Begins++++++
…The next morning we found ourselves cut of f, with swarms of Tyranids covering the valley as far as the eye could see. They’d
clearly come for the defence laser installation on the flat top of the mountain, wanting to put it out of action before it took more
of a toll on the hive ships and spores still in orbit. They tried rushing our defences with a direct assault first, but we’d used our
time well and dug in deep. The slopes of the mountain turned purple with the ichor of their crushed bodies.

They tried winged creatures next and the sky was soon black with flocks of Gargoyles. The defence laser made short work of
those flapping clouds though, burning them to cinders that fluttered helplessly downwards into the mass below. We were feeling
pretty good about our chances right about then, but they cut loose with some of their big guys and another swarm attack next.
Those giant, roaring monsters clambered right up the side of mountain like a man would scramble up a hill. They hit the forward
redoubts hard but Captain Heskund stood right by the heavy weapons crews and directed their fire. We put enough holes into the
monsters to stop them in their tracks and then mopped up the little ones when they were milling around confused. Afterwards we
brought up a Leman Russ tank with a dozer blade and shovelled the corpses back down the mountain.
It got quieter then. The Tyranids pulled back out of range but we weren’t fooled—they’d be back for a night attack or trying to
tunnel their way in next. We had screamers and tremor sensors up around the perimeter so we felt pretty secure but nothing came
all night. The Tyranids were still out there, thundering around like great herds of animals, shrieking and calling in their horrid
alien voices, but we stood watch after watch and they never came.

Next morning there looked to be less Tyranids than before and we cheered. That was when the ground cracked open and we found
out where they’d all gone. I don’t know how we survived what came after; the first thing out of the hole was like a giant snake
with claws, easily the length of three Chimeras, hissing and spitting lightning. Right after it came such a swarm of little ones that
we were knee deep in them in seconds. We brought up flamers and burned the hole, the little ones and everyone near it. The big
snake got away, I think—none of them like fire much. We figured out afterwards that the Tyranids had been thundering around
outside all night to cover up the sound the snake made digging its way in. Those sneaky little b–
++++++++++++++Excerpt ends ++++++++++++
These guardsmen^ are not Cadians, Kreig or whatever. They are just ordinary guard who beat Nids without the need of Smurfs or :rolleyes: Tau. They won using Tanks, entrenched defenses and artillery.

RBLFunk
18-10-2011, 13:39
I think this may be somewhat relevant to the discussion.

http://i53.tinypic.com/aph79l.jpg

I think the majority of Guardsmen don't need all that much equipment the majority of the time. It would be inefficient to over-equip them.
The (regular) instances in which we hear about Guardsmen dying in droves are probably examples of them being misused. Someone isn't using the right tool for the right job, or trying to make do with what's available when the right tool isn't.

FashaTheDog
18-10-2011, 18:22
I agree that not all regiments look at their Guardsmen as a means of depleting enemy ammunition, but when I think of Guardsmen, I look at my Guard army and what I see is Krieg so that is how I treat my Guardsmen. That might also explain why my non-Krieg models often fail their moral tests and under perform as a whole compared to their resin counterparts...

Fizzy
18-10-2011, 18:34
The units is as useful as you make them.

I have always killed someone when my krieg squads fires their lasguns. On range its about 1-2 every turn. In rapid fire distance I can get up to 4-5 kills sometimes :)

Lucky with the dices and belive in your troops and use them with great care. Dont charge Khorne berzerkers in close combat as soon as you can.

massey
18-10-2011, 19:31
Theoretically, guard regiments will vary wildly in composition and ability. A high tech world regiment might have a few hundred anti-grav paratroopers with meltaguns coming in via high speed drops from Vendetta aircraft. They are trained better than the best Navy Seals, have all the high tech gizmos you could want, and personal body armor that will stop a .50 cal round cold. A feral world regiment may grab a few hundred thousand of the Scotsmen from Braveheart, warpaint and all, and give every fifth guy a lasrifle. "When the man if front of you dies, pick up his rifle."

The average is probably somewhere in between. I think the coolest part of the guard is that there is such variety. It's broad enough to encompass basically every human army, ever. The "average" appears to be guys who carry a roughly mid-to-late 20th century amount of gear with a few futuristic special effects. That's because it's supposed to invoke memories of war movies. Watch the original Terminator again. The war-torn future isn't much different from Vietnam, except with robots. Kyle Reese runs around with a laser gun instead of an M-16, throws laser grenades (or whatever) instead of regular grenades, and wears little in the way of body armor. It was how Americans visualized war at the time, with some sci-fi trappings thrown in. The average IG unit is designed to hit that same imagery.

IG don't have to be incompetent, but they are the guys who suffer the body counts. It's hardly "in the dark future there is only war" if you're flying over the enemy in your stealth bomber incinerating ork villages. You need heroic charges on hills, months spent in a trench, guys who crawl out of a pile of dead bodies to open up on some Eldar with a heavy bolter, things like that.

FashaTheDog
18-10-2011, 20:38
Exactly massey, the variety is what you make it; Krieg epitomize WWI trench warfare, Catachans mimic Rambo, Valhallans aim for that special Soviet look, Tallarns might as well be lead by Sir Thomas Edwards Lawrence, Praetorians are Colonial Brits (and have their own news service (http://www.youtube.com/user/killcavlry#p/a/u/0/34q83JuM0xA)), and so on. If you like one idea, there's a regiment for you, if you like many, mix and match to your hearts content.

Connor MacLeod
19-10-2011, 06:16
First off: The Imperium is not made of infinite people. They are neither the Tyranids, nor the Orks, and they could not even hope to win a war of attrition with either race. They have lots of people, and that can be an asset in some cases (an individual world, a single small alien Empire, etc.) those numbers are finite (even the Krieg Clone marine meatdroids are finite.)

Secondly: The Imperium is not made of money. People have pointed this out, I will reiterate it. War is costly. War is wasteful. Constant warfare is constantly wasteful. Especially when you are fighting it on so many different fronts. When you have finite resources and lots of potential threats to face off against both in the present and in the future, you cannot always afford to go all out. You learn to use "just enough" and hope for the best.

Third: There is no such thing as a "standard" Guardsmen. Yes, this may run contrary to what is said in the codexes and stuff, but let's point out the facts. The Warp is at best inconsistent and sometimes evne a slow means of conveyance. That makes logistics and adminstration a real pain in the butt.

They have tons of worlds, tons of cultures, but not much they can actually do to organize or standardize it, although they try. Each planet/culture is different - they do things differently, train their troops differently, and will equip them differently.

This is why you have a Guard force that can run the gamut (literally) from feral tribesmen (or even worse feral hive gangers) to something not much less impressiv ethan Skitarii. Each planet tends to have a specialty (EG catachans are jungle fighters, Krieg are siege fodder, Steel Legion are mechanised, Elysians are Drop troops) and each will have a different role and value. Conscripts or feral worlders would make good cannon fodder (or scouts, or infiltrators), but they'd be lousy tank and amoured fist crews.

The sheer variety and differences between Guard forces raised from different worlds also ties into the logistics issue because.. well.. it introduces a problem. If everyone had or made rifles differently, how do you provide ammo for all those weapons? What about mateirals to repair body armor, or maintain weapons? And so on and os on. Accounting for each and every planet's variations would be a logistical nightmare, nevermind the problems that the Warp imposes (in time, risk of losing men and cargo, etc.)

The Munitorum seems to handle this by opting for "worst case scenario" - they basically plan things and equip troops in a way that allows them to be able to execute their capabilities adequately within the possible resources available. This is why they don't stick nuclear reactors in tanks (despite the fact they could, technically do this) but let them run on fossil fuels or even wood. It's why they opt for simple but rugged and easy to repair. Its why they use lasguns and flak. It is not the MOST effective, and they COULD equip them better (probably), but there is no guarantee that a place the Guardsmen fights in or be assigned to would be able to handle or repair that gear, and its quite possible their supply lines might be cut or lost or destroyed. A guardsman with a lasgun can still fight as long as he can make a fire or get access to sunlight. A guardsman with a hellgun? Not neccesarily. It's a matter of tradeoffs - you can't have everything.

That said, the Munitorum usually have/stockpile specialized or better equipment (more powerful weapons, better armor, vehicles, night vision gear, etc.) that they may hand out on a "as need" basis (in theory at least.) if the situation requires and permits. The problem here is that the Munitorum, being a bureacracy, does not always like letting go of gear. That tends to muddle up their nice neat paperwork, and its one of the reasons they keep saying gear is more important than men (they're responsible for the gear, and like any good bureacracy noone wants to take responsibility for something that might cause trouble later. To the paper pushers, Guardsmen are just numbers, and their regulations and the propoganda backing them reflect this.)

Fourth: Most Guardsmen, as noted in the codexes, are basically infantry. That isn't a bad thing, when you consider most Guardsmen tithed are likely to be either garrisoning a planet that is already conquered, holding territory already taken (by Space Marines, by IG armoured forces, by storm troopers, etc.) A Guard force garrisoning or defending an invaded planet does not really need super duper sophisticated equipment assigned to it - it is expected that the planet in question will provide what the Guard needs to execute its duty (transportation, equipment, etc.)

There is also the fact that the Guard does have an offensive arm - comprised of its mechanized and armoured units (eg like Steel legion) as well as other elite specialists (Storm troopers/Grenadiers, assault specialists, drop troops, etc.) who are meant to form the tip of the spear for attacks - especially if Space Marines and other supporting military forces are not available. They tend to be better equipped (logistics and resources permitting.) because of their role, but even then there can be variability due to the planet raising them, the availability of supplies, etc.

Logistics plays a HUGE role here. Again having fancy equipment is all well and good, but if you're a long way from home and the planet you are on doesn't have the right components to repair it, you're screwed. That can go for weapons, vehicles, fancy gear like scopes/goggles/comms/sensors, and so on.
And as noted, Munitorum Bureacracy can help as well as hurt here for the reasons I outlined.

Fifth: Know your officer. One of the greater flaws of the Guard is that the "variability" in quality or capability extends to the officers as well as the troops. Officers (at least up to a point - eg those that come with the tithed Guard force and not assigned by the Munitorum). The leader in question may be competent, he may be brilliant, or he may be that planet's version of Zapp Branigan. All are possible, and all have happened.

The Munitorum is still a mixed bag. It's not quite as bureaucratic as the Adminstratum, but they are still pretty bureacratic, and their goals/priorities will be different from the worlds the tithe is drawn from. You may get an experienced officer, or a pencil pusher, or somethign else entirely. Politics especially.

The haphazard way Guard forces are assembled and thrown together can only exacerbate this. If you have regiments raised from a world known for WW1 or Napoleonic style tactics, thrown together with light infnatry types (like say the Tanith or Tallarn), along with Cadian-types and Catachan types, but the commanding officer for all those forces comes from the WW1/Napoleonic world, he may well decide that ALL those regiments must fight that way, and damned whatever the others say. This is illustrated by the problems created by Krieg regiments serving alongside other regiments, especially when the senior officer is a Krieger. It's rather amusing that you need a commissar there sa a voice of reason rather than to wear a funny hat and execute randomly.

Connor MacLeod
19-10-2011, 06:30
A few random points;

1.) STagnation or lack thereof - that isn't the issue really. The real issue lies in the fact you have an AdMech that is fundamentally in conflict with itself the same way the Inquisition, the Ecclesairchy, and other organizations are. You have radical techpriests, conservative/puritan techpriests, and everything in between, and this is something that plays no small role in the variable/inconsistent scale of technology and tech development across the Imperium. Particulariyl since Forge Worlds are as unlikely to share with each other (EG Ryza keeps secrets of plasma stuff to itself, the planet that made Vanquisher cannons kept its secret, the secrets of Baneblade construction, etc.) as they are to share with the non-AdMech.

2.) Lasgun power and capability. Depends on the make and model, powerpack, and how well it is maintained. Some lasguns are used as purely thermal heat-ray deathbeams (EG they burn, melt or vaporize things) whilst others are more blaster style "make things explode and bleed" type lasers. And some are "sustained beams designed to rake or slice, or punch a hole through something" type. All are valid, all can be effective, they just operate on differing principles or may interact with targets differently (or may even be better against certain kinds of targets than others. like flame or acid on a regenerating enemy...)

Flak is pretty much in th same boat, especially when you get over the "rigid vs flexible" kinds of flak.

3.) How Cheap/expensive something is to equip a guardsman with depends on the planet raising the regiment, their tech level and industrial capability, and other factors (like economics.) A feral or feudal world will have a harder time equipping its Guardsmen with lasguns and flak than an industrialised world or hive world will, and it will be more expensive for them (They may have to have it shipped in from a forge world, or provided out of Munitorum stockpiles. While that self-same hive or industrial world, which pumps out lasguns and flak by the truckload, can easily/cheaply equip any troops, and may even be able to give them better quality stuff on top of that (micro beads, a good scope, etc.)

Sai-Lauren
19-10-2011, 09:13
2.) Lasgun power and capability. Depends on the make and model, powerpack, and how well it is maintained. Some lasguns are used as purely thermal heat-ray deathbeams (EG they burn, melt or vaporize things) whilst others are more blaster style "make things explode and bleed" type lasers. And some are "sustained beams designed to rake or slice, or punch a hole through something" type. All are valid, all can be effective, they just operate on differing principles or may interact with targets differently (or may even be better against certain kinds of targets than others. like flame or acid on a regenerating enemy...)

I think lasguns are supposed to be the second kind - Eldar laser weapons, especially those with the Lance rule, are the third, and maybe Melta weapons are the first.

And BTW, be careful of double posting - they're all good points, but you could easily have edited the first post to add the rest. ;)

Connor MacLeod
19-10-2011, 19:46
Necromunda (at least Confrontation), 2nd edition and 3rd and a few others made use of the "blaster make things explode" type. 1st edition was a bit vaguer (the only example I recall was a fist sized hole tunneled through someone's body, but it also mentions melting down a rock another was used for cover.) The Inquisitor RPG and FFG stuff seem to go half and half (half explosive, half thermal.)

The novels of course depend entirely on the author, and run the gamut as I described above. Of course even if you drill holes a centimeter or two through your target, that can be quite lethal if you drill enough of them (And some lasguns have insane rates of fire, and with no recoil it's easy to keep it on target.) And then there's the "slice parts of your body off or your torso in half" types which can also be lethal no matter what kind of organic monster you are.

Mr_Rose
19-10-2011, 19:54
The half explosive half thermal thing is the best way to make a practical laser weapon as you just need clever timing circuitry instead of adaptive optics, since you don't need to focus the beam on the target; you just need really high intensity lasers.
Which gets us back to the insane battery tech that is frankly the most outrageous feature of the lasgun when compared to modern technology.

Connor MacLeod
20-10-2011, 03:15
That depends entirely on your definition of "effective" - burning stuff isn't really the most efficient way to go about killing some things, especailly if it causes cauterization or blood coagulartion (fun fact, tissue temperatures as small as 60C can cause the blood to coagulate.)

The best explanation I come up with is that there are just certain enemies against which thermal damage (melting) works better than mechanical (explosive effects). Orks and Tyranids might suffer worse from burn injuries than they do from having holes blown in them and the burning might inhibit regeneration (at least in the Ork case it might inhibit spore production from the injury.)

I figur half explosive/half thermal is either some sort of magic, laser like particles that can still cause thermal effects (eg flash burns), or it may be the result of the laser creating a steam explosion.

As for the battery tech? YEah its pretty crazy. They actuall yhave liquid metal batteries (after a fashion, technicaly its called "molten metal battery") and they supposedly can store alot of energy (rate of discharge is a bit so so, though...)

SpaceTiger
22-10-2011, 00:06
the existence of the quartermaster shows the the gear is highly valued and the munitorium handbook and imperial infantrymens uplifting primer makes a point of how the gear is the first priority in rescue missions, and that it is a serious crime to mishandle your equipment or lose itActually this is not something unique to the Imperium. Real life military's used to do this to especially during the 1st and 2nd World War where due to shortages or whatever. Individual soldiers would sift through the bodies of enemy soldiers or even their own for cigarettes, ammunition, food etc. Quartersmasters job is to supplement the needs of the guard so as to not always call upon the logistics of the munitorium due to shortages or whatever by recycling used materials by taking from the dead and giving it to nw soldies. As far as I can tell, this doesn't really have anything to do with Munitorium regulations.

feintstar
22-10-2011, 03:36
Lot of good points so far:

What I feel it comes down to is simple:

The Lasgun and Flak armour are actually brilliant peices of equipment, just that their main brilliance is not on the battlefield but in the world of logistics, manuvering, training and outfitting a body of men, and to some extent price.

If you equip with more powerful guns or more protective armour, you lose in the logistics feild in terms of maintenance and repair, reliability, time it takes to train, price, potentially fatigue - (Regular IG are essentially light infantry and light infantry needs to be unencumbered to a degree - learn that from the VC).

Also its adaptable. Heavy infantry will suck in a jungle or desert, or distant moon far from a supply line. Truly light unencumbered infantry will do poorly in a seige/trenches/boarding actions.

And lastly, guardsmen should not be fighting the majority of the time. They should mostly be holding ground and hanging around.

Lastly, could you imagine if regular PDF forces were equipped with the kind of weapons that could kill marines easily? How would the imperium defend against the Cultists?!

SpaceTiger
22-10-2011, 03:51
Lot of good points so far:

What I feel it comes down to is simple:

The Lasgun and Flak armour are actually brilliant peices of equipment, just that their main brilliance is not on the battlefield but in the world of logistics, manuvering, training and outfitting a body of men, and to some extent price.

If you equip with more powerful guns or more protective armour, you lose in the logistics feild in terms of maintenance and repair, reliability, time it takes to train, price, potentially fatigue - (Regular IG are essentially light infantry and light infantry needs to be unencumbered to a degree - learn that from the VC).

Also its adaptable. Heavy infantry will suck in a jungle or desert, or distant moon far from a supply line. Truly light unencumbered infantry will do poorly in a seige/trenches/boarding actions.

And lastly, guardsmen should not be fighting the majority of the time. They should mostly be holding ground and hanging around.

Lastly, could you imagine if regular PDF forces were equipped with the kind of weapons that could kill marines easily? How would the imperium defend against the Cultists?!
Oh god no. You didn't get it at all :cries:. The Imperial Guard are the main attack force of the Imperium beside the Imperial Navy. They are the one's who fight in crusade's capturing ground, cities, fortresses etc, killing the enemy etc. Most of the time, the IG are the one's who put down the rebellions that continuously occur across the Imperium. They are the ones who fight the Orks most commonly.

You're thinking too small. A single guardsmen is a light infantry man but can also be a heavy infrantry man but thats special forces units which do exist. But imagine the guardsmen surrounded by hundreds of thousands of even milllions of guardsmen and women of all types such as Scouts, Artillery, Heavy weapons, Armored companies and Titans supported by air support and Orbital bombardment by the Imperial Navy.

All the "battles" 40k players fight are not the trube battles in 40k. They're just abstraction of the in-universe situations. Thus fluff takes precedence and not the nonsense of why is it not closer to the Tabletop.

This^ is the fighting strength of the IG and it is fearsome.

MagosHereticus
22-10-2011, 15:39
Actually this is not something unique to the Imperium. Real life military's used to do this to especially during the 1st and 2nd World War where due to shortages or whatever. Individual soldiers would sift through the bodies of enemy soldiers or even their own for cigarettes, ammunition, food etc. Quartersmasters job is to supplement the needs of the guard so as to not always call upon the logistics of the munitorium due to shortages or whatever by recycling used materials by taking from the dead and giving it to nw soldies. As far as I can tell, this doesn't really have anything to do with Munitorium regulations.

had you read the munitorum handbook and imperial infantrymens uplifting primer you would see it spell out plain as day that gear is to be recovered at all costs, and guardsmen need to recognize that they are merely the temporary owner of their equipment, merely one in a long chain

feintstar
22-10-2011, 15:52
The IG is the main attack force of the IoM, yes, but as pointed out elsewhere, those are the specialised units: Mechanised or Valkyrie borne regiments, Tank companies, Veteran and Heavy infantry and Seige formations: Those do the attacking. But that isn't 'regular' PDF who become regular IG, rather that's specialized units, who are rarer than regular guardsmen who may in times of trial be called upon to do anything, but are preferably not going to do anything but hold ground, defend, garrison, form a battle line, dig and man trenches.

Connor MacLeod
22-10-2011, 18:13
had you read the munitorum handbook and imperial infantrymens uplifting primer you would see it spell out plain as day that gear is to be recovered at all costs, and guardsmen need to recognize that they are merely the temporary owner of their equipment, merely one in a long chain

What the Munitorum wants to happen and what actually does happen on the field aren't neccesarily the same thing. The AdMech WANTS the Imperial military to stop mucking around with their vehicles because that impinges on AdMech territory - yet it still happens (both amongst the Astartes AND the Guard. For example, modifying tank or other vehicle engines for greater speed, or customizing a lasgun.)