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Sly Rax
25-09-2011, 00:07
I pity the bloke that gets the job of writing a new wood elf book.
The only way I can see to make them sell well is to make them very very good which should not be the way to promote an army.

How do you make WE ineract with other armies apart from beastmen and brets?

Their fluff is good but it all happens in or around Loren.

How do you get WE out there into the big bad warhammer world?

WE are my favorite elves but Ive never had a army of them because the fluff is so restricted.

Give them the Dragon Isles or somthing.

herbtarkel
25-09-2011, 00:12
What about Chaos Warriors? The Empire? The Stunties? And of course, marauding Orcs or Goblins?

I don't have any problems with WE being in the Warhammer world - you should try picking up the old 5th ed. book - very good and full of classic Wood Elf goodness!

OldMaster
25-09-2011, 00:15
Quite the contrary.

What I love most about the Wood Elf fluff is its setting - its size makes it possible to describe it in great detail, which the unique nature of the Wood Elves is perfect for.

I themed my Warriors of Chaos army about Athel Loren, a warband getting all the way through the World's Edge mountains and stranded in Athel Loren to find an artifact of sorts.

ftayl5
25-09-2011, 00:37
Yes, you seem to be under the assumption that Wood Elves only exist in Athel Loren. I don't think that it has ever been said that that is the case and IIRC, it has been said that that is not the case.

I could imagine Wood Elves living in forests across the world, each are equally a forest is equally important in being reclaimed or defended, Athel Loren is just their home and the forest they have most control over. Hence it is easy to see them fighting much more than Beastmen and Bretonnia but also Empire, Chaos in all forms, Dwarfs even, needing the forest trees for their fires, Skaven; if they believed there to be warpstone deep within a forest, etc, etc. There's a good reason for Wood Elves to fight anybody.

But I do agree with you in that I too pity whoever is making the new book.
I have no idea how that they can become a solid, competitive army without losing their skirmishing, hit and run fluffiness.

Sly Rax
25-09-2011, 00:41
What about Chaos Warriors? The Empire? The Stunties? And of course, marauding Orcs or Goblins?

I don't have any problems with WE being in the Warhammer world - you should try picking up the old 5th ed. book - very good and full of classic Wood Elf goodness!

So all WE can do is sit in a wood and get attacked. Again and again. That story gets old very quickly.

Ive got the 5th ed book(very good fluff. all happens in Loren or Bret), that was my warhammer peak and whats in it is armys attacking Loren.

"Whats the story behind this battle? Well its got WE in it so its an army invading Loren for some reason"

OldMaster
25-09-2011, 00:44
Well, the "good" races aren't really invading anyone most of the time, right?

Korraz
25-09-2011, 00:47
The same could be said about the Empire. Or Dwarfs. Or High Elves.
And WE also live somewhere else. Laurellorn, for example.

Sly Rax
25-09-2011, 01:00
Yes, you seem to be under the assumption that Wood Elves only exist in Athel Loren. I don't think that it has ever been said that that is the case and IIRC, it has been said that that is not the case.

I could imagine Wood Elves living in forests across the world, each are equally a forest is equally important in being reclaimed or defended, Athel Loren is just their home and the forest they have most control over. Hence it is easy to see them fighting much more than Beastmen and Bretonnia but also Empire, Chaos in all forms, Dwarfs even, needing the forest trees for their fires, Skaven; if they believed there to be warpstone deep within a forest, etc, etc. There's a good reason for Wood Elves to fight anybody.
.

I dont think that WE only live in Loren but the fluff so far has been very pro to the fact that thats where most of them are.

Empire have small settlements all through the bad lands and everywhere but that dosnt mean thay can just pull up an army like that.

zoggin-eck
25-09-2011, 02:28
They've already hinted at it in the big 8th rulebook, with loren being linked to other sacred groves and wood elves zapping around like Eldar with webway gates.

Again, the fluff isn't that restrictive, and the background doesn't need to scream "they will fight everyone, anywhere" for people to play them on the tabletop. Wood Elves fighting a far-away army is no harder to justify than two dwarf/high elf/lizardmen players battling each other, or special characters who could never meet up against each other. It doesn't bother them in 40k, where you see impossible things like Grey Knights vs Grey Knights :)

As for making them "very very good" I still don't think that's ever the case when writing the books, and it's an assumption that people put so much emphasis on the rules.

KharnTheBetrayer01
25-09-2011, 02:53
I do love a challenge, so lets see if we can't give a reason for any race to attack or, and here will be the trick, be attacked by wood elves

Doesn't take much, an expansionist feel for the wood elves basically goes

"And while they protected the forests with their lives, the Wood elves knew it was a losing battle. To be constantly on the defensive was eventually to lose. The Wood elves, worried for their survival, and the survival of their forests, walked the deep roads, searching desperately for the wisest, oldest treeman to aid them. The tree's spoke of a time before the memory of man or elf, when even the slann and Sky Titans were young, When tree's stretches far and wide. A time even the oldest tree barely remembers.

The elves heard of this time time, the words of the treeman echoing in a part of their souls they had never felt burn. A race apart for so long, the forests never quite one with their symbiotic defenders, had finally found a new goal, one that would bring the wood elves the acknowledgement and ever fear of their more known cousins. They would take the world back. Gone were the tales of sprites in the forests and arrows flying from the boughs. The Wood elves had a new plan, a new drive, and with the trees finally all alligned to them, the forests of Athel loren would march out to reclaim the world for nature."

Or something of the sort. Basically, expansion of the treeline, villages swallowed, nature revolting...oh, you get the idea, I've rambled enough.

Xisor
25-09-2011, 03:21
It's Warhammer. Read a bit more on the woods the WE live in: Sometimes the woods attack you. :eek:


Edit: Flippancy aside, WE are widely spread. Athel Loren seems to live half in normal world and half in the realm of magic. Its ability to distort, wobble, stretch, expand and so forth means it's less a 'geographical feature' and more of a plot device which allows almost anything to happen for no reason whatsoever. Again, flippancy creeping in. But if you read The Hour of Shadows, I found CL Werner presented a very nice and consistent 'rule of insanity' for showing how it all works. It's not 'anything can happen', but only important/interesting/neat/creepy things can happen. I'd not be surprised to find you can 'emerge' from Athel Loren into almost any forest in the old one, if you've bargained with the creatures of the woods properly.

Halelel
25-09-2011, 03:25
Honestly, I thought this was going to be about their army role as skirmishers more than front-line fighters.

I'm not sure the fluff would directly affect the overall power level of the army. Fluff is very "hit or miss" in relation to how models are statistically determined. Look at Warriors of Chaos as an example. Chaos Warriors probably represent their fluff pretty well as elite foot troops, but there are other models who have rules that don't tend to do the fluff justice, like Giants, Chaos Dragons, Shaggoths, Dragon Ogres, etc.

I honestly do feel bad for the poor guy who has to write the Wood Elf army book, but its not because of the fluff. The main issue will be trying to turn a skirmishing-focused army into a viable 8th edition force. Unfortunately, I feel like they pretty much have to turn Wood Elves into a standard 8th edition army block focused army for the sake of army book continuity and balance. GW seems to be moving away from having armies with its own special rules, which I like, but other will undoubtedly dislike.

zoggin-eck
25-09-2011, 04:35
The main issue will be trying to turn a skirmishing-focused army into a viable 8th edition force. Unfortunately, I feel like they pretty much have to turn Wood Elves into a standard 8th edition army block focused army for the sake of army book continuity and balance. GW seems to be moving away from having armies with its own special rules, which I like, but other will undoubtedly dislike.


I think they may be a bit like the beastmen, with skirmish forces being big in the fluff, but the "proper" armies looking much more like your usual Warhammer force with big blocks of troops and so on. I don't mind if they go that way with the Wood Evles, so long as they keep plenty of skirmishers and fast units, with a few rules for moving through forests, perhaps.

The 5th edition book usually presented them as marching out to meet an enemy before they reached the forest proper, rather than waiting for them to be upon them. Elves springing unseen from the trees to attack an unaware army is sweet in the background, a skirmish game or special scenario, but perhaps doesn't always work in your average game. Maybe we'll see more of the horse-tamer kindreds, with chariots again please?

I don't get the whole "feel bad for the writer" stuff. They just need to make them half decent in the game (not saying I think they aren't currently, though), with some cool new models and artwork. A Wood Elf release as awesome as the recent Dark Eldar one would make my day :)

eron12
25-09-2011, 05:42
I know other sources have mentioned Wood Elves living in other places, but to my knowledge the current army book only mentions Athel Loren. In fact, the Wood Elf existance in the book is tied complelty to Athel Loren to the point where elves could be Wood Elves only in that forrest.

Charistoph
25-09-2011, 05:46
I pity the bloke that gets the job of writing a new wood elf book.
The only way I can see to make them sell well is to make them very very good which should not be the way to promote an army.

How do you make WE ineract with other armies apart from beastmen and brets?

Their fluff is good but it all happens in or around Loren.

How do you get WE out there into the big bad warhammer world?

WE are my favorite elves but Ive never had a army of them because the fluff is so restricted.

Give them the Dragon Isles or somthing.

You've seemed to have missed some significant fluff written in the army books. Yes, the Asrai exist primarily in Athel Loren, but they have often left their woods for numerous reasons. They leave to help Bretonnians defeat enemies getting too close. They also leave it quite often during Orion's Wild Hunt. They have been seen in numerous other woods, and even they specifically state that they often travel from woods to woods, sometimes even to begin colonizing them. One of the main reasons for that is to reduce the Beastmen presence, specifically Morghur, but they will also move to block Chaos warriors access to woods. About one of the few places you WON"T find Asrai having access to would probably be Khemri and Araby, and that mostly because of the derth of forestry.


Yes, you seem to be under the assumption that Wood Elves only exist in Athel Loren. I don't think that it has ever been said that that is the case and IIRC, it has been said that that is not the case.


But it has been said that it is their PRIMARY home. Just like Bretonnians are from Bretonnia, but they can also be found with lands in other parts of the Old World (such as the Border Princes).


So all WE can do is sit in a wood and get attacked. Again and again. That story gets old very quickly.

Which is very much in error. They often leave the woods. Even more often when Orion feels the stirs of the Wild Hunt. True, their impact on world events rarely reaches the impact of the Empire, the Dwarfs, or the other Elves, but that doesn't mean that they don't play their part, either.


Well, the "good" races aren't really invading anyone most of the time, right?

like Araby (Empire and Bretonia), Albion (Lizardmen), Khemri (Empire and Bretonnia), or the lands of the Border Princes (Empire, Bretonnia, and Dwarfs)? True, they don't do it as often as say, the Norn, Beastmen, or Greenskins, but they do it quite often.


I know other sources have mentioned Wood Elves living in other places, but to my knowledge the current army book only mentions Athel Loren. In fact, the Wood Elf existance in the book is tied complelty to Athel Loren to the point where elves could be Wood Elves only in that forrest.

Incorrect. It specifically states that they have a presence in woods around the world, though it did mention that this is a relatively recent change.

eron12
25-09-2011, 07:10
Incorrect. It specifically states that they have a presence in woods around the world, though it did mention that this is a relatively recent change.

page number please.

Crymson
25-09-2011, 07:21
I thought the wood elves have the ability to travel from one forest to another in the blink of an eye, as all forests are connected and the elves have learned how to harness this?

Late
25-09-2011, 07:34
8th ed. homogenizes everything :/

Sexiest_hero
25-09-2011, 07:37
It's not that hard.

WE Ammasing for a huge offensive against Morghor and his crew.

Evil tree "What's his name" breaks out of his grove with new twisted monsters (New big monster kit) The more cold hearted tree men and kin join him on his mad rampage. his army able to shamble out of any wood in the old world, no nation of peoples from elf to Ogres are safe.

As the great forest grows it clashes with old powers. The Slaan and lizard men won't see their temples over grown by some magic forest, and th desert gods of the dead are loath to see grain of sand turned greenery.

Easy peasy.

thesheriff
25-09-2011, 08:44
Historically, with items like moonstone of hidden ways, and mentions of bands of warriors that travell to other parts of the old world using the older forests as gatewyas, anywhere thats goot trees, could have wood elves. Ulthuan, they get (effectivly) woodleves near the Everqueens terratory. All across the old world there are forests.

There is also the fact that Druthu (mentioned above), is effectivly the tree equivalent of a white-supremacist. With the way that the new books are having buckets new or revised special charecetrs aswell, it would be easy to write him in to be effectivly a radical forest spirit who seeks domination of the old world.

There is plenty of openended fluff IMO.

NOW GW JUST WRITE THE *********** BOOK. I WANT TO USE MY WOODLEVES AGAIN!!!

thesheriff

Korraz
25-09-2011, 10:16
If they want Athel Loren to expand, they only have to topple the Waystones. Bretonnia would be overgrown within weeks. But currently, the WE fear the forest as much as they love it.
On the other hand, this might, might put the WE and Drycha on better terms, a tiny bit.

sasheep
25-09-2011, 11:03
Well the WE army book has them fighting a fair few different forces from the obvious Beastmen and Brets, to vampires (I think it was Krell and someone? sorry don't have my book on me), dwarfs, greenskins, empire and chaos. The only two armies I could see them having trouble getting to are TK and lizardmen (although they could jump to Lustria I supose just not sure why they would). I think there is plenty of aspects in the fluff that could be expanded so I would say the person who gets to write the book is rather lucky. Now if only we knew if it is being worked on and by whom.

Von Wibble
25-09-2011, 11:48
I pity the bloke that gets the job of writing a new wood elf book.
The only way I can see to make them sell well is to make them very very good which should not be the way to promote an army.

How do you make WE ineract with other armies apart from beastmen and brets?

Their fluff is good but it all happens in or around Loren.

How do you get WE out there into the big bad warhammer world?

WE are my favorite elves but Ive never had a army of them because the fluff is so restricted.

Give them the Dragon Isles or somthing.

Wood elves actually are settled in a lot of forests. Isn't there "F-space" written into the fluff, which allows them to travel from any forest to another (think moonstone of hidden ways)?

The larger problem will be getting an effective guerilla style into 8th edition rules, which currently favours the opposite, and doing it in a way that

1) makes them fun to face (the enemy actually get to make some decisions)
2) doesn't require 3-4 special rules per unit entry
3) keeps the model count relatively low.

Good luck with that.

PS - I'm waiting................

Bertolac
25-09-2011, 12:06
The only two armies I could see them having trouble getting to are TK and lizardmen (although they could jump to Lustria I supose just not sure why they would).

Settra's fleets raid Bretonnia regularly enough, which brings them close enough to tangle with the Asrai and if treehopping off to Lustria is too awkward, then there's always the possibility of the Lizards popping over to Athel Loren via a Stone Circle on some secret Slann mission.

All explained easily enough.

Rosti
25-09-2011, 12:28
The larger problem will be getting an effective guerilla style into 8th edition rules, which currently favours the opposite, and doing it in a way that

1) makes them fun to face (the enemy actually get to make some decisions)
2) doesn't require 3-4 special rules per unit entry
3) keeps the model count relatively low.

I have hope! Someone on Warseer (the name eludes me, though) spotted that the Fast Cavalry rule explicitly states that models which aren't cavalry can still have the rule. I'd be a fairly happy chappy if Scouts and Glade Guard merged into a Fast Cav. bow unit, leaving the 'proper' skirmishing bow wielding hi-jinx archetype for Waywatchers.

The alternative is scary, though. I'm trying to hold back on pessimism 'til I know what's in store for the Good Ship Athel Loren.

The bearded one
25-09-2011, 12:42
What'd seem cool to me, is to have gladeriders have some kind of special rule that represents them luring out the enemy into a charge and then run off, while another wood elf unit can then pounce on the charging unit from the side, something like....
"When an enemy unit charges a unit of gladeriders and the gladeriders elect to flee, the charging unit may not redirect the charge and must attempt to complete the charge against the gladeriders."

Quite nifty yet very, very subtle.

TheLionReturns
25-09-2011, 13:09
I think the 8th edition rulebook addresses this already. Athel Loren has links to other sentient forests all over the warhammer world which are related to it. I think of them like outposts of Athel Loren connected via a vast magical root network. The wood elves can travel between them by magical gateways that make up a network known as the hidden ways which, via distortions in time and distance, allow the Wood Elves to be redeployed very quickly.



They have a caste of prophetesses led by Ariel who identify future threats to the forests of the warhammer world and WE armies are dispatched to strike pre-emptively.

TheMadMarquis
25-09-2011, 13:11
I think Wood Elves can still be unique in 8th, just in a slightly different way. Take Empire as an example. Their close combat troops can't stand up to those of most other armies, but they make up for it by weakening the enemy with artillery and blocking them with tanks and war altars. Similarly, wood elves should usually be fielding fewer and worse mainline combat units than their opponents, but should make up for it with lethal ballistic skill shooting and small, killy units of skirmishers.

Tokamak
25-09-2011, 13:17
In order to maintain the biodiversity in their forests they send out expeditions to prospect for rare flora and fauna specimen across the world.

That's my take. And of course, they're natural conservatists so they care about all nature. A wood elf force trying to sabotage the dwarf industries is perfect canon.

Harwammer
25-09-2011, 13:21
In order to maintain the biodiversity in their forests they send out expeditions to prospect for rare flora and fauna specimen across the world.

Nice! I LOL'd :)

Seriously though, Athel Lorens isn't just that forest off Bretonnia. It is everything that is 'forest'. In this way it is all forests. The Wood Elves have taken this abstract connection and turned it literal.

In gameplay turns I imagine dryads will go back to be ranked up, I don't know how War Dancers will be dealt with, maybe they'll get their 4+ dodge save in addition to what ever dance they weave?

Quinzy
25-09-2011, 14:03
They'll probably lose their dances and just have them all rolled in to one, toned down.

Urgat
25-09-2011, 14:11
to vampires (I think it was Krell and someone? sorry don't have my book on me),

Kemmler, and he is a necromancer, not a vampire.

KharnTheBetrayer01
25-09-2011, 14:17
Well, it was Heinreich Kemmler (Best necromancer in the history of warhammer) and Krell (Ex-chaos champion wight) if memory serves. Gave rise to the necromancer army in the days when White Dwarf was a little bit more than just a £4.50 advertisement..

(Edit due to bearded one: Ok ok ok, not "the best" in terms of technical ability or successes...or power level... or minion total... but he does have the best hat, and that should count for something)

The bearded one
25-09-2011, 14:32
Nagash isn't the best necromancer anymore? Did I miss the memo?

Andy p
25-09-2011, 14:39
Frankly, the setting of the Wood Elves is exactly why I like them. There is something very fantastical and mysterious about their land and mythology and I also find their neighbours, the Bretonnians, to be another faction with a good setting for mythological fantasy.
This isnt to say that places like the Empire dont belong, it's just a different type of factional setting that's all.

More than anything else the Warhammer world is meant to be a working world, it isnt all Chaos incursions and giant greenskin Waaaghs, the settings are huge and there are thousands upon thousands of possibilities and encounters with an almost infinite potential for any event or battle you could imagine.

To me that is what I like about places like Athel Loren, these little skirmishes but also quite large battles that take place on a personal level, not everything has to be part of a bigger doom, afterall every individual warband or group has their own motives, ideas and objectives.
I just like the idea of this vast and varied fantasy world, where pretty much any story can happen within the setting involving the factions and people within it.

In some ways I feel that some of the smaller more 'fringe' factions like Brets, woodies and Gutties, (ok ogres), exemplify this better than some of the larger ones, although I still love them all pretty much.

Except High Elves....too poncy. :D

Morge
25-09-2011, 15:27
If they want Athel Loren to expand, they only have to topple the Waystones. Bretonnia would be overgrown within weeks. But currently, the WE fear the forest as much as they love it.
On the other hand, this might, might put the WE and Drycha on better terms, a tiny bit.

Sounds like someone has read Grail Knight. In Guardians of the Forest they use the forest to take the hidden way to go from one side of the forest to the other. In Grail Knight Drycha tempts the main character to travel back to his homeland using the secret ways.

So yes they can travel just about anywhere they want, but it isn't without its dangers. The hidden paths aren't the yellow brick road.

If you want to look more into the expansionists fighting for control in Athel Loren just read Grail Knight.

Daniel36
25-09-2011, 15:33
I am pretty sure that with the new book they are going to put a lot of focus on the Wood Elves outside of Athel Loren. The forests of the Empire still exist for a reason. Even if it's not Wood Elves themselves hanging around (which they are), then it will be the spirits of the forest that are.

Besides, you can say the exact same thing about Lizardmen and Tomb Kings. Yet they seem to get around too.

Korraz
25-09-2011, 16:18
The forests of the Empire exist because there's currently no use in chopping them down. You don't need the space for farming yet, they provide an endless stream of cheap throwaway mercenaries and it's simply not worth the bother.

Doommasters
25-09-2011, 21:29
WE are the best army, I agree with above.........write the book so my 4k points of WE can hit the table agaoin!

I have no problem if they are primarily found in Athel Loren, in the fluff they often leave to aid Brettonia in times of great need. They are also said to be found in forests aroound the world.

Nothing would suggest a powerful army has to be fighting all over the world all the time and in vast numbers. Wood Elves interests lie in the forests of the world and particaluary Athel Loren, they don't have the blood lust and culture of other armies. They have little need to ventruing out to find war, rather they zoom around defending and sometimes pre emitively striking to ensure the survival of the forests.

It would be sad if the WE were forced to play with huge hordes of troops, I persoanlly think that their is enough room to keep playing as a unique skirmishing army even if in different ways than in 7th. Being able to teleport between forests and keeping incentive to take small warbands of archers that are mobile seems do able imo. Making WE unbreakable and increased cover saves in forests is a good start. The best part about the old WE was making you opponent fight combats where they did not want to, this made up for the fragility of WE troops as you could combo charge. Now i think there needs to a be more emphasis beng placed on forests and mobility as I cant see small units in the open taking down hordes and i dont want to see ranked up units all over the place as it is not the WE way.

1) Forests need to play an even more important role now, making up for hordes and steadfast. Force the oppoent to engage you where you want to fight, so that small numbers can take oh hordes.
2) Shooting needs to be a focus without bringing in war machines (gg need a points reduction and waywatchers need real help)
3) WE should be feared in combat but in a killy sense, precison strikes with bow and sword. They should stay fragile in combat though, unless within a certain range of a forest for which they should then become hard to kill.
4) Mobility, getting behind the enemy and slwoing down/ redirecting. While having enough surviabilty to do so.
5) Remain an army that rellies heavily on tactics and forsight, rather than simply charging up the middle with blocks of troops slaughtering all in your path.
6) Sniper lords, with cool bows and magic arrows that are actually worth taking.
7) Athel Loren spell that can turn forests into Dryads :-) (wish listing here)


Dreaming:

Horde of 50 Marauders being constantly taking fore from Glade Guard are forced into chargeing into a forest in order to get within striking range of the archers. Unknown to them once they entire the forest they enage 10 war dancers who gain a 3+ ward and are unbreakable in the forest. Then in the WE magic phase the trees are tunred into dryads striking down even more marauders. Thus forcing the chaos player to divert an elite band of warriors to their aid only to find another forest in their way with a treeman that has been teleported from accross the map. Way Watchers are positioned so that the chaos sorcerer would risk certain death if he was to attmept to come to the warriors help. While the chaos troops are tough as nails being split apart and having to fight on their own, the chaos general is forced to commit even more troops to forest comabt leaving the gladeguard free to contiune the hails of doom. The Marauders are sure to killed to the last man as they start to flee there are allready glade riders behid the lines ready to clean up the mess. The only hope for the chaos is that their nighst on the flank can carve through the flank of the numerous glade guard units. After two units have been taken down a glade guard unit flees into a forest becoming unbreakable. The chaos knights persue to their own peril as the archer lord unleashes the hail of doom arrows and snipes of the level 2 sorcerer. The forest then comes alive to finish off the last knight. Meanwhile the warriors have managed to cut down the treeman with the aid of fire and a second khorne unit of warriors has caught some dryads in the open making short work of them. The hellcannon after 3 turns of shootong has killed all but one waywatcher and the sorcer lord is free to traverse accross the map. With the Wood Elves split in two the Chaos player looks to clean up the exposed glade guard units, however close range shooting sees the allready weakend unit of Warriors killed to the last man with armor piercing str 4 bow fire. The Hellcannon roars killing a 10 man unit of glade guard, with any survivers fleeing. The Sorcerer infernal gateways another unit and the khorne warriors chop down the unit of glade guard bunkered in the forest. However in doing so find themselves ending the turn in the middle of the forest a costly mistake. In the WE turn the archer lord takes 2 wounds of the sorcerer and a remaining unit of war dancers enters a forest on the other side of the map being teleported ontop of the frenzied chaos warriors, the forest comes alive with dryads and the chaos warriors are soon out matched and between the forest dryads and the wardancers the warriors free only to be cleaned up by an eagle lurking behind.

In the final turn the chaos sorcerer charges the archer lord inflicting 2 wounds but taking his final wound in the process, the hell cannon charges into a unit of gladeguard crushing 3 but then failing to catch the fleeing unit. Victory to the WE, the chaos in disarray while plotting for the next battle and how to enage the WE away from the forests.

Little does the chaos player know that the We plans on taking forest dragons in the next battle, rare choices that bring 5+ scales, MR2 and are immune to multiple wounds. Not to mention a carosive breath weapin that inflicts 2D6 Str 3 hits and reduces armor 2.

Dreams are free

Balerion
25-09-2011, 23:07
1) Forests need to play an even more important role now, making up for hordes and steadfast. Force the oppoent to engage you where you want to fight, so that small numbers can take oh hordes.


Do not want.

No army should ever depend on something that is inherently undependable, like the type of terrain available for a game. That is horrible design, and leads to things like the mistaken idea dealt with in this thread, that WE only ever hang around in Athel Loren and every one of their fights takes places in the deep woods.

The rest of your list is generally agreeable, though. :)

Doommasters
25-09-2011, 23:20
Do not want.

No army should ever depend on something that is inherently undependable, like the type of terrain available for a game. That is horrible design, and leads to things like the mistaken idea dealt with in this thread, that WE only ever hang around in Athel Loren and every one of their fights takes places in the deep woods.

The rest of your list is generally agreeable, though. :)

I like the idea of having forests playing a bigger role in the game, even if it is only a sub tactic that can be used. If the WE have a few different ways to play the game it makes it much more fun. I can understand that building the army around forests would not the best idea, however making them an inherant part of the army and a viable tactic where you know you will have a few forests would be nice and fluffy.

What I would hate to see is WE becomming a generic army like everyone else, If we forced to field hordes and lots of blocked up troops I will not even bother playing again. may as well just start a new army if that is going to be the case.

I am of the opinion that if you are only going to get a book every 5 years or so there better dam well be a few different equally viable ways to play an army.

Don Zeko
26-09-2011, 01:03
What if Wood Elves had some sort of mechanic by which they could limit step up? Say if they got a debuff spell that made even models in base contact make supporting attacks as if they were in subsequent ranks, or perhaps if wardancers and wild riders had something to the effect of "for every three kills inflicted by a unit of Wardancers in a round of combat, the unit suffering those casualties treats one fewer model as being in base contact with the wardancers for that round." I'd want to playtest these furiously, of course, but it seems like you'd need something this drastic to make unarmored T3 combat skirmishers viable again. Well, that or a massive points drop, but I don't think anyone wants to see 10 ppm wardancer hordes.

Doommasters
26-09-2011, 02:12
What if Wood Elves had some sort of mechanic by which they could limit step up? Say if they got a debuff spell that made even models in base contact make supporting attacks as if they were in subsequent ranks, or perhaps if wardancers and wild riders had something to the effect of "for every three kills inflicted by a unit of Wardancers in a round of combat, the unit suffering those casualties treats one fewer model as being in base contact with the wardancers for that round." I'd want to playtest these furiously, of course, but it seems like you'd need something this drastic to make unarmored T3 combat skirmishers viable again. Well, that or a massive points drop, but I don't think anyone wants to see 10 ppm wardancer hordes.

You are right in that to make skirmishers viable again there would need to some serious special rules introduced for WE's. Even simple solutions would have far reaching consequences and would need exstensive balancing.

Does GW have the energy and resources to dedicate to making skirmishers viable once more? Personally I hope so, but i doubt GW will do it based on their track record.

The second question, is there anyother play style the WE could take over in order to keep them unique? There is no doubt making them a rank and file army would destroy what made WE fun to play but s there a way to have a bit of both without making all new mechanics?

If I was GW I would see the WE as a way of increasing the depth in 8th edition, curently we are stuck in a game of hordes and wizards and while it is ore balanced than 7th edition there is still room to improve and add game mechanics.

WE should not be seen as a thorn in the side, rather an opportunity for GW to increase the depth of 8th edition, my 2 cents!

Korraz
26-09-2011, 09:30
You don't need big special rules.
First, and foremost: Treesinging should be able to move forests over units. With the movement penalty gone, why wouldn't it? Make Treesurfing faster and let it move trees over enemy units and shazzam! Lots of problems solved. Suddenly an assault of Wardancers WILL break those big blocks and suddenly it's your lowly scouts that are stubborn.
Maybe add a spell that can summon forests and the whole things becomes really interesting.

Reptile
26-09-2011, 09:31
The forests of the Empire exist because there's currently no use in chopping them down. You don't need the space for farming yet, they provide an endless stream of cheap throwaway mercenaries and it's simply not worth the bother.

The forests of the Empire exist because the Empire doesn't control huge swathes of them. They have the technology and the need (who ((living)) doesn't need cheap, plentiful food?). What they lack is the necessary security in the areas.
A huge proportion of forests in the Empire are too dangerous for a human to travel through, let alone log, being infested with Greenskins, Beastmen, Brigands, various nasties and, yes, Wood Elves.

Korraz
26-09-2011, 09:41
That's true for the most part of Drakenwald, but not for all forests. The Empire book makes it quite clear that they could chop down the forests around Altdorf, for example, but they simply don't want to. Controlling them would be quite easy once you burned a good part of it down. The Empire simply doesn't need the farming space, because they don't have the mouths to eat it or the workes to keep the farms.

The bearded one
26-09-2011, 10:13
the beastmen book paints a different picture.

For example the Reikwald is infested with ungortribes and the forest of shadows IIRC has a lot of forest goblins.

Reptile
26-09-2011, 10:52
That's true for the most part of Drakenwald, but not for all forests. The Empire book makes it quite clear that they could chop down the forests around Altdorf, for example, but they simply don't want to. Controlling them would be quite easy once you burned a good part of it down. The Empire simply doesn't need the farming space, because they don't have the mouths to eat it or the workes to keep the farms.

Food=Population growth. Not vice versa.

Haravikk
26-09-2011, 10:58
How do you get WE out there into the big bad warhammer world?
Have them leave the forest? They do do that you know :)
Also, aren't there some mentions of them passing between forests somehow, as if Athel Loren can move them places?

I don't really see that it matters personally, as Athel Loren's position makes it a hot bed of activity for Empire, Bretonnia, Beastmen and Dwarfs. It's also protected by the various magical waystones that are meant to be extremely powerful, almost like permanently activated arcane fulcrums, so there are plenty of reasons why a sorcerous army would want to attack the forest, not to mention the various mysteries within (if you can find any of them).

Korraz
26-09-2011, 11:09
the beastmen book paints a different picture.

For example the Reikwald is infested with ungortribes and the forest of shadows IIRC has a lot of forest goblins.

Sure it is. I never said something different. I just said that not ALL forests are the Drakenwald. Sure, Beastmen live everyhwere, but "Infested with Ungor Tripes" is something different than "Infested with War Herds, Minotaurs and Chaos Beasts."


Food=Population growth. Not vice versa.

Reality doesn't work in straight lines. Otherwise several billion people would live in North America and Europe, and Africa would be nearly uninhabitated.
But can we leave the Empire vs Forests discussion out of a WE thread? If somebody feels that we need to have the "Why doesn't the Empire clear its lands?", here's (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269354) a thread we had exactly on this topic. Resurrect of needed.

Reptile
26-09-2011, 11:56
Reality doesn't work in straight lines. Otherwise several billion people would live in North America and Europe, and Africa would be nearly uninhabitated.
But can we leave the Empire vs Forests discussion out of a WE thread? If somebody feels that we need to have the "Why doesn't the Empire clear its lands?", here's (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269354) a thread we had exactly on this topic. Resurrect of needed.

Not a valid comparison.
Of course we can leave it out, bear in mind it was you who brought it in.

Spiney Norman
26-09-2011, 17:03
I know other sources have mentioned Wood Elves living in other places, but to my knowledge the current army book only mentions Athel Loren. In fact, the Wood Elf existance in the book is tied complelty to Athel Loren to the point where elves could be Wood Elves only in that forrest.

Right and we all know that GW never retcons the fluff in old books...

They could (and might well) do absolutely anything with Wood elves in an 8th Edition book (when and if they get one), they might not even be a skirmish force in the 8th ed army book, just very shooty versions of high elves with access to lots of tree monsters.

I just hope to god that they don't make Dryads ranked up infantry, there is zero chance of mine ever ranking together.

SkawtheFalconer
26-09-2011, 17:31
Honestly Norman, I'd be gobsmacked if Dryads didn't rank up. :(

(Fortunately, I'm old, and have quite a few of the old metal fellas, but Im sure the majority of Wood Elf players wont)

Questionable-Methods
26-09-2011, 19:08
I was discussing the 'fixing' of Wood Elves with a friend, trying to think of ways that guerillas could be effective in a game dominated by giant blocks of nigh-unstoppable infantry - here are some of our ideas -

1) Give the Wood Elves army as a whole a rule similar to 40k's hit and run. Basically after they strike in close combat give them a chance to break off and move 2d6" in any direction (following same move restrictions as fly). This would represent a hit and them disappearing into the terrain
2) 5+ Ward saves against shooting and magic, representing their mastery of camoflage and cover
3) Magic that primarily focuses on screwing up enemy movement as roots grab at the boots of marching foes, or bogs randomnly form that cause chargers to trip and sink into the loam.
4) In lieu of warmachines - grant them an option so a unit of their treekin (or whatever their ent knock offs are called) can throw boulders or logs following rules similar to catapults or bolt throwers.

Please keep in mind that I am not 100% up with my Wood-Elf lore, and I apologise in advance for any grievous mistakes I may have made.

Balerion
26-09-2011, 19:56
1) Give the Wood Elves army as a whole a rule similar to 40k's hit and run. Basically after they strike in close combat give them a chance to break off and move 2d6" in any direction (following same move restrictions as fly). This would represent a hit and them disappearing into the terrain

It's been a while since I've played 40K, so I forget the answer to this... but don't the enemies still get to hit the unit on it's way out, or something like that? If so, I don't think it would really help the WE playstyle very much.

I think you'd have to make it skirmishers-only, though. It's a little hard to swallow Eternal Guard or Glade Guard charging in in formation, and then somehow extracting while maintaining their perfect ranks...

To steal another rule from 40K, some version of And They Shall Know No Fear might help the WE, allowing them an auto-regroup after they fall back, as long as they are at 50% strength or greater. I suppose it would have to be tweaked, maybe only made applicable to Flee reactions rather than flight resulting from a Panic or Break test. I guess that's pretty close to making them all Fast Cav, though.

Charistoph
26-09-2011, 20:33
To steal another rule from 40K, some version of And They Shall Know No Fear might help the WE, allowing them an auto-regroup after they fall back, as long as they are at 50% strength or greater. I suppose it would have to be tweaked, maybe only made applicable to Flee reactions rather than flight resulting from a Panic or Break test. I guess that's pretty close to making them all Fast Cav, though.

This would probably be best with just the Eternal Guard, with MAYBE the Wild Riders being another, to have this type of rule.

Doommasters
26-09-2011, 21:11
2) 5+ Ward saves against shooting and magic, representing their mastery of camoflage and cover. Maybe only when in a forest or all the time?

3) Magic that primarily focuses on screwing up enemy movement as roots grab at the boots of marching foes, or bogs randomnly form that cause chargers to trip and sink into the loam. Add to this teleporting in forests and moving trees and it would be sweet!

4) More customisability for Gladeguard/waywatchers, i.e. arrow upgrades; magic, poison, armor piercing, kb, etc whatever can be balanced

5) Sniper lords, would so so cool to expand on the concept of machine gun archer lords. Hiding in trees and sniping of unit cha,pions and wizards etc would be epic, Waywatchers also need help as they are iconic yet unplayable.

6) Penalty for multi shots has to go, str 4 bows in close range for all?

If they have a good ward save and are unbreakable in forests that would be cool, combined with roots, snares and forests that can reliably fight omg that would be amazing.

cyberspite
26-09-2011, 22:01
I've said this before but I still believe WE's can be viable in 8th and still retain a primarily hit and run style.

4 changes:

small point reductions on various units, namely glade riders, warhawks, waywatchers among others

Improved dodge/ward/parry/tattoo whatever saves, wardancers, wildriders, warhawks especially

Most importantly, increased damage output for the elven combat units. High cost and fragility offset by awesome hitting power.

Improved athel loren lore and/or greater access to brb lores, for level 1/2's in particular. Hell, even having access to shadow would help.

They would still be a glass cannon and tricky to get right but that's what we want right? As for ranked-up dryads I don't really care, a lot of ranked-up units wouldn't actually fight in neat ranks anyway. They just get the benefit of it rules-wise. Also, if WE's are going to get any bonus from forests then we need a spell that can grow them, otherwise any advantage is minimal. Although I do agree that any reliance on terrain would be a bad idea generally.

Oh dear, just realized what the thread is about. OT, I don't really see a problem, plenty other armies are just the same.

Haravikk
27-09-2011, 14:52
small point reductions on various units, namely glade riders, warhawks, waywatchers among others

Improved dodge/ward/parry/tattoo whatever saves, wardancers, wildriders, warhawks especially

Most importantly, increased damage output for the elven combat units. High cost and fragility offset by awesome hitting power.

Improved athel loren lore and/or greater access to brb lores, for level 1/2's in particular. Hell, even having access to shadow would help.
I agree with this; Wardancers could be amazing with a permanent 4+ Ward Save in combat and Always Strikes First, combined either variable abilities or upgrades to get extra Attacks, Killing Blow, and/or extra Strength as they require it (depending on your exact choice of role for them).

I'd definitely love to see Dryads being also being made much more powerful, but still skirmishers. The fact that they are Stubborn in forests due to being skirmishers is actually pretty nifty as a side effect of the nerfing, and Eternal Guard could do with something similar, but it should be a bonus and not a core mechanic, as others have said, the Wood Elves aren't always going to be in a forest, and any guaranteed forest terrain isn't always going to be where you need it.

The list should be able to build specific Forest Spirit or Wood Elf only lists that are both decently competitive; in particular, Treemen should bolster Treekin and Dryads, possibly functioning like Battle Standards (but not for Wood Elves themselves). Treemen Ancients could do with being a bigger, even more bad-ass treeman, but a lot more costly and rare to compensate, with the option for either an ancient, or a branch-wraith to lead.

Wood Elves themselves should remain very fragile, and with an emphasis on using their shooting to full-effect to get the most of their combat troops. Personally I'd like the Glade Guard to have more options for falling back quickly, so you can use their shooting in an offensive way, rather than tending toward a gun-line. It's currently possible, but a boost could make offensive, rather than defensive, shooting a lot more favourable. Eternal Guard meanwhile would remain a bit weak/over-costed, but effective enough to work well if you thin the enemy out first, especially with War Dancers or mounted units supporting them. Making Glade Guard skirmishers or giving them the option (without Scout) could be a good one, as it makes them able to move even more quickly to get their Strength 4 shots, and less vulnerable to return shooting. Way-watchers could be fixed by just reducing their cost… a lot, or making them really vicious.


There is tons of scope to fix the Wood Elf list while keeping the same rapid-fire glass-cannon army style that they used to have, without them needing to meddle with fluff to explain why everything suddenly fights in dull boring ranks like everybody else.

Fluff-wise I think the army is already fine, they're by far one of the more interesting Elf races, along with Dark Elves (sorry boring generic High Elves)! A few more stories of their participation in wars well beyond Athel Loren might be nice, but they're already interesting.

the_picto
27-09-2011, 16:03
How about:

1) Ambush as an armywide rule, but let them treat any forests as a board edge.

2) Woodelf units can perform a quick reform without the need for a Ld test, maybe keep the musician requirement. This would keep them relatively maneuverable when dryads and wardancers inevitably become ranked up.

3) Make glade guard skirmishers as standard, complete with glade guard longbows. If their main combat troops are to be ranked up, let the main missile troops be skirmishers.

Andy p
27-09-2011, 16:43
You don't need big special rules.
First, and foremost: Treesinging should be able to move forests over units. With the movement penalty gone, why wouldn't it? Make Treesurfing faster and let it move trees over enemy units and shazzam! Lots of problems solved. Suddenly an assault of Wardancers WILL break those big blocks and suddenly it's your lowly scouts that are stubborn.
Maybe add a spell that can summon forests and the whole things becomes really interesting.

Im not woodie player, but this seems quite fitting to me.

Questionable-Methods
27-09-2011, 17:02
I think you'd have to make it skirmishers-only, though. It's a little hard to swallow Eternal Guard or Glade Guard charging in in formation, and then somehow extracting while maintaining their perfect ranks...

I agree! And as for the TSKNF rip-off...well, I'll get to that in a sec.


2) 5+ Ward saves against shooting and magic, representing their mastery of camoflage and cover. Maybe only when in a forest or all the time?

3) Magic that primarily focuses on screwing up enemy movement as roots grab at the boots of marching foes, or bogs randomnly form that cause chargers to trip and sink into the loam. Add to this teleporting in forests and moving trees and it would be sweet!

4) More customisability for Gladeguard/waywatchers, i.e. arrow upgrades; magic, poison, armor piercing, kb, etc whatever can be balanced

5) Sniper lords, would so so cool to expand on the concept of machine gun archer lords. Hiding in trees and sniping of unit cha,pions and wizards etc would be epic, Waywatchers also need help as they are iconic yet unplayable.

6) Penalty for multi shots has to go, str 4 bows in close range for all?

If they have a good ward save and are unbreakable in forests that would be cool, combined with roots, snares and forests that can reliably fight omg that would be amazing.

I like the teleport in forests, no penalty for multi shot (As they pull some crazy Legolas ****), but STILL think the 5+ ward save should be wherever they are at. I was kind of thinking of the Fremen from dune a bit too when I came up with it, figuring the Wood Elves are such masters of Camo they could find a hidy-hole wherever they are at. Or perhaps the D&D 3.5 Ranger's "Hide in Plain Sight" is a better example?


How about:

1) Ambush as an armywide rule, but let them treat any forests as a board edge.

2) Woodelf units can perform a quick reform without the need for a Ld test, maybe keep the musician requirement. This would keep them relatively maneuverable when dryads and wardancers inevitably become ranked up.


1) This would be awesome, but for the 'forests as board edge' it would only matter for falling back/reserves. Units have to follow normal set up restrictions.

2) The TSKNF knock-off can be automatic with a musician, and offer a re-roll to regroup without one.

And one last thing - I know Wood Elves play heavily into the whole 'tree' thing (Hell, its in their damn name), but I think the fluff should give them some elbow room to make playing Wood Elf scenarios easier. Maybe rules such as the 'Woods count as board edge' can be any piece of natural, difficult terrain. Think of Wood Elves maybe more like druids highly attuned to ALL asspects of nature then solely the forests of Athel Loren.

This would help make sense of why the hell Tomb Kings would ever run into Wood Elves and the like.

pointyteeth
27-09-2011, 18:14
Fluffwise, I don't think there is too much of a problem. Just put some more attention on the "all forests are connected by mystical ways" and it should be fine. What I feel sorry for is the poor bugger that gets chosen to write the rules. Its going to be a balding experience to make a balanced list while maintaining the wood elves individuality as an army.

the_picto
27-09-2011, 19:41
1)This would be awesome, but for the 'forests as board edge' it would only matter for falling back/reserves. Units have to follow normal set up restrictions.

I meant for the perposes of ambush, let them come out of a wood instead of coming on from a board edge. This let's them do the gorilla warfare with extra wood based shenanigans.


2) The TSKNF knock-off can be automatic with a musician, and offer a re-roll to regroup without one.

I was refering to the pre-move reform that you can do, not reforming after rallying. If they're going to be ranked up, making quick reforms easier would let them keep some of their maneuverability.

I don't think dryads and wardancers are going to stay skirmishers. Dryads will be fine as ranked infantry with their high toughness and ward save, but wardancers need work.

peukestas
27-09-2011, 20:26
A nice special rule for gladeriders would be shooting back while fleeing from charge reaction.
I love the gladerider models and have 8 of them.But, currently they are not 'cost-effective' due to low survivability,low damage,high cost(relatively).
I would buy another 8 if there was some use for them...

Eddie Chaos
27-09-2011, 21:21
I think there are other forests with wood elves but I agree it could be more explicitly stated otherwise when would they ever fight lizardmen or tomb kings?

Talk about all forests being connected magically, name some specific places they live and perhaps say that they sometimes travel to corrupted forests to purge the chaos beasts/goblins etc. That would do the job in less than a page of fluff and a map.

popisdead
27-09-2011, 22:30
Quite the contrary.

What I love most about the Wood Elf fluff is its setting - its size makes it possible to describe it in great detail, which the unique nature of the Wood Elves is perfect for.

Yeah I agree.

How dare GW make an army that is really unique with it's own setting in history that doesn't involve the War of the Beard (per se).

Doommasters
27-09-2011, 22:37
I think there are other forests with wood elves but I agree it could be more explicitly stated otherwise when would they ever fight lizardmen or tomb kings?

Talk about all forests being connected magically, name some specific places they live and perhaps say that they sometimes travel to corrupted forests to purge the chaos beasts/goblins etc. That would do the job in less than a page of fluff and a map.

Agree, they could even add in that over the years that have passed the WE are becomming more linked to the forests. Where once there was that thick air there is now friendship between the forests spirits and the WE. This opens up the fluff for the forest unlocking more secrets for the WE in terms of waystones etc. In the current book you feel the WE and forest spirits work togeather out of a need rather than a deep friendship, maybe the new book to move more towards an real alliance.

xxRavenxx
27-09-2011, 22:43
I always liked the fluff that despite the wood elves loving their trees, the trees don't love them back...

It would be a shame if they made everyone all lovey and huggy...

cyberspite
27-09-2011, 22:53
Yeah, I like that it's dangerous even for the elves. In fact I would like them to explore that further if anything.

Questionable-Methods
27-09-2011, 23:00
I always liked the fluff that despite the wood elves loving their trees, the trees don't love them back...

It would be a shame if they made everyone all lovey and huggy...

Agreed. What do you tell a Wood Elf with two black eyes? Nothing! The Tree-kin already told him twice *cue snare drums*

I have been re-reading a lot of the Wood Elf fluff, and I love how unabashadly callous nature is. Wood Elves are tree hugging hippies, but they will still get their heads bit off if they aren't careful.

Karak Norn Clansman
27-09-2011, 23:18
There's no problem at all. Except for little forest enclaves and forest gateways, they've already got the Wild Hunt. That's an open opportunity for army book writers, albeit an insane one.

mootant
27-09-2011, 23:33
There's no problem at all. Except for little forest enclaves and forest gateways, they've already got the Wild Hunt. That's an open opportunity for army book writers, albeit an insane one.

Easy fluff fix: Make it so the Wild hunt randomly appears in different forests before rampaging about. E.g. Orion and co could appear in Lustria during the Wild Hunt, or Orion could appear at some random oasis or something in Nehekhara.

That would solve some of the more obvious 'problem' armies for Wood Elves to fight fluffily.

Doommasters
30-09-2011, 22:20
Well I cant see a WE book soon have to wait for that fluff, rumors seem to suggest vampires?

the gribbly
01-10-2011, 04:31
I think every wood elves, brett and dwarf player should start spamming GW with email/letters asking for some kind of balanced updates for all books, starting with these three. Let our voices be heard! If not then they have lost our business. After seeing armies from 7th redone again before any of these older books I'm seriously at that point. Its not even about some perceived power level either, it's about giving reasonable support to the fan base of the product they created. Waiting 8 years and 3 editions for them to throw these (or other) armies a bone is simply ridiculous. No excuses.

blackcherry
01-10-2011, 07:48
Its odd how the OP seems to have missed out large chunks of wood elf background just so he can start a thread slagging off a race he clearly doesn't like. Ah well. A new day, the same internet.

Harwammer
01-10-2011, 10:09
I think every wood elves, brett and dwarf player should start spamming GW with email/letters asking for some kind of balanced updates for all books, starting with these three. Let our voices be heard! If not then they have lost our business. After seeing armies from 7th redone again before any of these older books I'm seriously at that point. Its not even about some perceived power level either, it's about giving reasonable support to the fan base of the product they created. Waiting 8 years and 3 editions for them to throw these (or other) armies a bone is simply ridiculous. No excuses.

Interestingly the last 4 books to be updated are those the fans have been saying for years most needed an update (as well as being some of the older army books). Both brets and dwarfs can build armies that fit the 8th ed play style so while dated their books aren't obsolete. This leaves Wood Elves who struggle against steadfast and step up. I guess all I can do is recommend wood elf players take plenty of river sections, large forests, etc to their games and insist to set up at least d6+4 terrain items in addition to their free wood.

I'm sure Wood Elves will be updated within a year BUT it may take the back seat to a 'big' release (vampires? Empire? Dwarfs?) in order to give GW a nice cash injection.

Charistoph
01-10-2011, 17:23
If Wood Elves are done right, they CAN be a major release, as 7th Edition Vamps and Rats show, and Beasts show as the opposite.

Private_SeeD
01-10-2011, 22:25
as mentioned in the bok about wood elves (can't remember the name) the War dancer's knw specai/ strange/perilous shadow pathways, so it wouldn't be much of a leap for the next writer to use that