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SteelTitan
25-09-2011, 00:10
And with that I mean, the little / cheap / sometimes even sacrificial units that make you outdeploy your opponent at the start of the game?

Do you always make sure you have at least a X amount of these units in your list? Or is it a filler? Or does it depend on the army you play with?


Im trying out small units of 5 dire wolves. I must say I really like it so far. It allows you to pick your fights a lot better, which can have a HUGE influence on the game. Especially with Vampire Counts because you don't have many units to deploy anyway...having three units of wolves is a big difference in how you can control the game!

The wolves are also used to screen my main line (if I didn't use the cheap drops to trick opponents to deploy away from my planned battle line) and to redirect charges. This means the wolves usually die, but by that point they already served multiple purposes.

They did come at the cost of my Wight BSB, but so far I havent missed him.

What's your opinion?

gormaster
25-09-2011, 00:29
I do not look at my deployment that way. Deployment is one of the most important parts of the game and winning or loosing can be largely decided at that time. When I set up a cheap unit I place it where ever because of it`s mission, not because it`s cheap.

As an example, I have been playing Ogres of late. I use three sabretusks @ 21 points each. These normally go one on each flank because that is where I think they will do their job for me. The third I don`t place until get an idea where there may be a hole in my opponents line that will allow me to slip through to charge a mage or warmachine. Sure they are cheap but nothing is disposable until it serves a purpose for me.

You are not saying you have no BSB are you? As functional as you`re wolfs may be they can not possibly replace a BSB.

tmarichards
25-09-2011, 00:40
I think they're very very important, and I'll in fact be discussing why in my upcoming back to basics deployment tactics video :D (shameless plug)

I think they're great because they can help you get the match-ups you want by forcing your opponent to commit their points to the board first, which allows you to counter them and put them on the back foot before the game even begins.

It helps to have drops that can quickly redirect, or won't be moving much per game though. For example, my first 3 deployments are a unit of harpies on either flank (with flying M10 they can quickly get to where I want them to be) and my bunker at the back of board- it rarely leaves my deployment zone, so I don't mind putting it down early on.

Don Zeko
25-09-2011, 01:00
I think they're very very important, and I'll in fact be discussing why in my upcoming back to basics deployment tactics video :D (shameless plug)

I think they're great because they can help you get the match-ups you want by forcing your opponent to commit their points to the board first, which allows you to counter them and put them on the back foot before the game even begins.

It helps to have drops that can quickly redirect, or won't be moving much per game though. For example, my first 3 deployments are a unit of harpies on either flank (with flying M10 they can quickly get to where I want them to be) and my bunker at the back of board- it rarely leaves my deployment zone, so I don't mind putting it down early on.

This is all true, but there are a couple of other things to keep in mind here, however. For one, having scouts, fast cav, tunnelers/EbtS units and so forth can let you deploy after your opponent no matter how many drops you have. This is one of the reasons that I like my shades in my DE army and I really like my 8 necropolis knights in my TK army.

The other concern is that having cheap drops means that you have more drops overall, so you're less likely to get first turn. Now in general that's not as important as an edge in deployment, but there are some match-ups (Empire v Empire, Dark Elves and/or wood elves v each other) in which getting to shoot first might degrade the enemy's counter-attack enough to swing the balance. If that's the case, you want to get your army down quick for that +1 to first turn.

tmarichards
25-09-2011, 01:04
Taking scouts unfortunately also means you're less likely to get the first turn (there's nothing in the rulebook to say they don't count towards the +1), and as I usually have 2 units of them I tend to deploy expecting to get the second turn.

Lazarian
25-09-2011, 01:54
I am a firm believer in bleeding set ups from your opponents. There are some annoyances in the possibility of going second at times but being able to exactly dictate the battle field in fantasy is worth the effort. I played MSU Ogres a while back and it was one of the few ways to really get a handle on the playing conditions.

the gribbly
25-09-2011, 03:57
For most armies the game is often won in the deployment and movement phases so I rate these types of units high on my priority list. That said there its definitely a balance to be struck and too many can clutter and hinder your movement and firing lanes. Optimally these units should not only be cheap but also fast, and dual purpose such as skirmishing archer units. My favorites being eagles, scouts and flying cavalry.
Its also worth noting that the deployment value of these units increases greatly when combined with strong ranged elements.

Disciple of Caliban
25-09-2011, 13:06
For ogres 3 individual sabretusks and 2 units of 10 gnoblars are mandatory. First 2 drops are a sabretusk to each flank, then the other 3 go wherever seems useful at the time, the last one dropped will usually be the gnoblar trappers, who go in front of either the enemies most powerful unit, or in front of my leadbelchers to serve as mobile cover. All 5 units will die in almost every game, but the sabretusks are fast enough to be useful even if deployment leaves them half a board away from any tasty mages or war machines, and when the gnoblars die well really, who cares.

All told the 3 units total 138 pts if memory serves, and they effectively double the amount of drops my ogres get, thus helping to ensure the important drops (ironguts and mournfangs) are within striking distance of a worthwile victim.

MrCarbohydrate
26-09-2011, 03:23
I really don't use a lot of cheap drops ever, playing principally Empire and Dwarves, as I'll generally drop the War Machines first in the best spots for them, figuring they're not really going to move anyway. Then, with Empire especially, I'll have a great chance at going first and getting shots off since I deploy one unit with Detachments OMG SOMEONE USES DETACHMENTS BURN HIM HE'S A WITCH

But deploying 6 WM and an engineer as a separate unit usually means my oppo has to put at least one real unit on the table before I do.

Frankly
26-09-2011, 06:51
And with that I mean, the little / cheap / sometimes even sacrificial units that make you outdeploy your opponent at the start of the game?



It's certainly a massive part of the game for my Southlands list that works around short ranged shooting and magic. Those key first 3 turns are where it does a huge amount of damage, if my units have to spend a turn darting around enemy units keep out of trouble it'll usually cost me the game.

Being able to drop small skink units to out deploy my opponants rank and file and put my salamanders into a good position is key to the list's good fortune.

SteelTitan
26-09-2011, 07:24
@Gormaster:

I understand you saying that you deploy units because of their mission, not their point cost. You also say that a battle is largely won with deployment.

Consider armies where the majority of points is invested in large blocks and where you need to pick your fights with these units favourably to win. In these cases you don't have the points to use other units as early drops nor can you use these expensive units because you won't be able to pick your matchups.

VC is a good example as they tend to have 3 big units of infantry (ghouls/ghouls/grave guard). Combined with characters and mandatory rare choices, you're left with few units to deploy / points. If you don't use CHEAP drops, you basically give your opponent the decision how to match up fights.

The mission of these cheap drops IS to allow you to select match ups. Considering that this alone can give you a huge advantage should be reason / mission enough. If they can do something afterwards (screen / redirect) it's a bonus.


Last battle was a test and a casual game too. I dropped my wight king BSB to make room for three units of wolves. With VC there is less need to run a BSB i feel as you don't make many Ld test except for (fast) reforming.


@tmarichards:

I'm looking forward to seeing your videos. I think there are too few Fantasy tactic videos/blogs already, so I'll check out what I can find!


@don zeko:

Up until now I don't rate going first as important as selecting your matchups during deployment. My armies might of course be the reason (Vampire Counts and Lizardmen...Im working on Empire where this probably changes).


@MrCarboHydrate:

EDIT: ALL warmachines are deployed 'as one drop'. ALL Characters are also deployed as one drop AND have to deployed last. 6 WMs and an engineer won't help you much in terms of outdeploying your enemy.

CaptScott
26-09-2011, 10:00
Cheap drops are MASSIVELY important, as it allows you to arrange favourable matchups, or avoid/tarpit particularly nasty enemy units. That being said I consider too many cheap drops beardy, so I only take 2-3 for large games (2 is OK imo, 3's getting a bit of fluff on my chin).

Tanglewood
26-09-2011, 21:15
Very useful for battleline-esque games but can be a pain if you're playing full WFB missions. Those random deployment is a real problem when they all turn up in the same quadrant and everything ended up in a massive jam (remember you also have to maintain 1" between models too)

tmarichards
26-09-2011, 21:49
@Gormaster:



@tmarichards:

I'm looking forward to seeing your videos. I think there are too few Fantasy tactic videos/blogs already, so I'll check out what I can find!





Link here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZJGZf2onEE

sssk
26-09-2011, 22:40
The fact of that matter is, when you have cheap fast stuff, it's not crucial to put it where you'll want it to be. Let me give a goblin example (as usual):

my cheap units are pretty much wolf riders and pump wagons (and the occasional lone troll, though he's used in a very different way). So I tend to take 2-3 units of wolf riders for re-directing (if an enemy death star unit gets in combat with something which isn't a wolf rider or a lone hero, something's gone wrong) and 2 pump wagons, for novelty value.

I place wolves first (let's assume artillery is all equal), usually on flanks, but obviously it depends how the scenery ends up. By the time I've finished deploying wolves, the enemy has usually deployed their fast cav/flyers, and are starting on ranked units (as they tend to have less units than me, as they tend to have more expensive stuff than goblins).

While they're deploying ranked units, I can be sticking the pump wagons up against stuff which is suitably squishy, or if for whatever reason, I still don't know what they're going to do, they go down on a flank too.

So then I put down my main units opposite match ups which favour them (if there is such a thing with gobbos...).

Then the wolves get their vanguard move to get in some cover, and in my first turn (which on average will be after the opponents first turn, as they'll finish deployment first) the wolves can move 18" assuming they don't squabble. So essentially, between vanguard and movement, by the end of turn 1 I can have re-deployed my wolves halfway across the board if I want to.

It also helps to take the approach that if they get shot... meh, they're only gobbos, and indeed the aim of those particular gobbos is to be sacrificed so that other stuff isn't getting killed, so really, they're doing their job... well done to them

Chicago Slim
27-09-2011, 11:36
There's a lot of metagame, psychology and misdirection in this decision. Against some players, and even against some army types regardless of who's playing them, I'm more likely to put out an A-block of infantry early on in my deployment (maybe even first), in order to bait my opponent into committing to attack it. That gives the appearance of "letting him pick the match-ups", but if he takes the bait early, then I still have opportunities to respond. If he instead leaves a noticeable vacuum across from my bait, then I *still* know that something big is coming there.

So, I'm more of the school of thought where my units have jobs to do, and I'm going to deploy them to do those jobs. By dropping something big and good early on, I'm committing to it-- this may help my opponent, but it also helps me, because of my style of play...

Valaraukar
27-09-2011, 12:32
Yup there are a lot of tactics involved in this step and I certainly have been known to take 3-4 units of 5 warhounds, ungor raiders etc.

However I also dislike that the game 'can be won in the deployment phase' so am tempted to start suggesting my friends and I mix it up and use blind deployment sometimes although the scenarios in 8th already help to mitigate this somewhat with their range of deployment rules.

Haravikk
27-09-2011, 14:02
Personally I think cheap drops are, well, cheap; everything in your army should have a proper function, just wasting time during deployment isn't a very good one unless they serve a genuine role later on. But otherwise you just end up making deployment take longer than normal.

One thing I like doing in friendly games is determining the scenario then, if it allows relatively normal deployment, then you choose your deployment layout before any units hit the table. So you scribble it down on paper, that you can verify that the person is deploying how they planned to, this way your deployment is based purely on being sensible and covering your bases, rather than one player with a ton of cheap units dictating where the battle-lines are ultimately drawn. Don't do it all the time, but it's usually more fun.

SteelTitan
27-09-2011, 14:53
@ Haravikk (and to a lesser extent Capt Scott as he calls using many cheap drops beardy):

Including units in your list that give you an edge during deployment is a tactic. I fail to see why that you would change the deployment rules to make the game less tactical.

As to calling it beardy, the units DO cost points. In my case, I had to drop a Wight King / Fell Bats/ Necromancer (depending on my list), to include them. They come at a price and almost every army can do it, so I don't see how it is beardy / cheesy. If your opponent didn't prepare for it and has none of such units, he's gonna have a huge problem with his matchups.

Which basically means you outsmarted him strategically...and isn't that the point of the game?

@ Sssk: I generally put my cheap drops in the centre so that i have the possibility to screen my main units from missile fire (-2 to hit is pretty huge as I noticed last game against sniping maneaters aiming at my general). This is also because I have enough flanking units (black coach, varghulf or wraiths). However, I do see the benefit of putting them on the flanks as you give away less information as to where you'll deploy your main units.

Dungeon_Lawyer
27-09-2011, 19:47
Cheap drops are rated highly.

But "cheap" is a misnomar-try to save that last gutter runner from annhilation, protect that eagle with 1 wound left, be cagey with the 2 remaining skink skirmshers. If you incolcate the notion that no unit is worth "cheap" vp for your opponent, then these types of units will be even more valuable then just for pure outdeployment purposes.

popisdead
27-09-2011, 22:22
If you really want your flaming banner unit with S6 and Hatred lined up against that HPA may as well do your best to ensure you have lots of chaff.

However I tend to think of them as tactical units rather than cheap drops. I don't take units solely for the purpose of forcing my opponent to deploy his army.

Mid'ean
28-09-2011, 12:24
They may be cheap points wise (or not) but the tactical edge they can give you make them invaluable in my opinion.

winterking07
29-09-2011, 05:03
Cheap drops, especially cheap maneuverable drops, are wonderful.

I never grow tired of saying this: Great Eagles are the best 50 points in the HE army book, and maybe the best 50 points in the entire game. If the models weren't so expensive, I'd take the maximum in every list--and when I'm playing people who don't mind my poker-chip-glued-to-cardboard-base proxies, I do take the maximum. And they're great.

Rosstifer
29-09-2011, 10:54
I rate them very highly. Warhounds are nothing short of awesome, they just do so much for 30pts!