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Eternus
25-09-2011, 08:57
Ok, you have to admit, it's downright depressing talking about how poor some units are, especially when they are units we have a soft spot for, and there are bucket loads of threads that either point out in great detail how pants some units are for all sorts of reasons, or suggest ways to fix them. Now I have come to the conclusion that until either army books get updated or the rule book does, neither of which is due soon in most cases, that none of this venting really changes anything, so, I would like this thread to go like this:

Someone suggest a unit that we feel is really not worth the points as the rules currently stand, and tell us (briefly) why, then we discuss. There is a catch. You are not allowed to build on the unit's failings, or agree that the unit should never be used in a list, you are only allowed to suggest ways that the unit could be useful.

I'll start. Zombies. They have some of the worst stats in the game, are all but useless in a fight, can't currently preform the Tarpit duty they are intended for, and are too expensive for what you currently get.

I sugget that they are good for one job, because this is what I did with them in my last game with VC's. I raised a small unit right in the way of two enemy units (Chaos Knights and a block of Chaos Warriors) which prevented both units from charging my Grave Guard. The angle I placed them at meant that if either unit charged them, they'd end up having to reform or finish up facing the other blocked unit, thereby blocking each other the following turn. The Knights were Khornate, so were forced to waste a turn fighting the Zombies, before being charged by my Grave Guard.

Anyone else have a use for Zombies, or want to suggest another pants unit to big up?

cornonthecob
25-09-2011, 09:02
Zombies are a reasonably good bunker for your necromancer.

TheDrugLordX
25-09-2011, 10:22
I'll start. Zombies. They have some of the worst stats in the game, are all but useless in a fight, can't currently preform the Tarpit duty they are intended for, and are too expensive for what you currently get.

I sugget that they are good for one job, because this is what I did with them in my last game with VC's. I raised a small unit right in the way of two enemy units (Chaos Knights and a block of Chaos Warriors) which prevented both units from charging my Grave Guard. The angle I placed them at meant that if either unit charged them, they'd end up having to reform or finish up facing the other blocked unit, thereby blocking each other the following turn. The Knights were Khornate, so were forced to waste a turn fighting the Zombies, before being charged by my Grave Guard.

Well, you're not exactly promoting the use of zombies directly, what you're saying here is that the spell Raise Dead has great use, but you would never pay the points for a unit of zombies.

WarlockLoki
25-09-2011, 10:25
There are several units i suppose to be underdog.

- High Elf's Shadow Warriors

- High Elf's Dragonmage

- WoC Frenzy W4+1 guys

- WoC Ogres

- nearly every single Giant :D

- Beastmen Chaosspawn

- Bretonnian Questis (While in my opp they were buffed due to the new rules)

And so on. I think every Armybook has its dead ends.

bildo
25-09-2011, 10:50
chaos dwarf hobgoblins. they are 2 points basic, 1/2pt for add. hand weapon, just less than human stats in some, but boy do they rock

Korraz
25-09-2011, 10:50
Empire Spearmen. Everybody either wants Halberds, or Swordsmen.
In combination with the cheap mages, they can be surprisingly nasty too.
Bildo, those are NOT underdogs. In fact, they are hilariously good.

Von Wibble
25-09-2011, 10:51
Zombies are a reasonably good bunker for your necromancer.

Or would be if characters could join them.

Giants are fine, just a little overcosted. They are very easy to shoot down and their average I goes against them. But..

When they make it into combat they have a lot of potential, and the random nature of their attacks can be very effective.

Last time I used one it stuffed a savage orc shaman on a fulcrum down his pants. Definately worth it.

They are one of few things that is favourite to beat a dark elf war hydra in combat.

And finally, even when killed in combat they can take several models with them from falling over - the ones I have faced always seem to fall on my troops rather than elsewhere.

SVKBaki
25-09-2011, 11:09
Ellyrian Reaver - 17 points for what? S3 T3 W1, 5+ AS?

They have excellent new models, but I would like to hear any reasonable uses for them

The same for Silver Helms, when just for 9 points more you have a dragon prince which is much much better...

martijn
25-09-2011, 11:37
HE shadow warrios! my god do they suck, especially when compared to shades...
anyhow, a friend of mine used a fun list though on a small torunement lately in which he used altith anar (yes special charatcers were aloowed) 2x10 archers and 3x 10 shadow warrios (it was 1k). the results were mixed but the games were fun.

Eternus
25-09-2011, 12:00
Well, you're not exactly promoting the use of zombies directly, what you're saying here is that the spell Raise Dead has great use, but you would never pay the points for a unit of zombies.

In suppose if I were to pay the points, I would rather take two units of 20 than one unit of 40 and que them up to block a powerful enemy unit, as this would probably hold them up longer than having one large unit.

theshoveller
25-09-2011, 12:15
Ellyrian Reaver - 17 points for what? S3 T3 W1, 5+ AS?
They do what light cavalry do. They cost 17 points because ... well, they're High Elves, that's what High Elves cost. They're a point cheaper than Empire Pistoliers, who do the same job worse (there's an argument that the Reavers are more expensive once you start taking their options into account... but they have options!).

Harwammer
25-09-2011, 12:32
I've got a use for Zombies...

Bogging down a beastmen lord using the Primeveal Club (replace wielder's S with enemy's Ld).

That's about it :p

Frankly
25-09-2011, 12:35
YaY fOr UndeRDog UnITs!!!!! My 3 favorite units that seem to get the short end of the stick from the internetz haters.

Skrox units are my favorite at the moment. 24 skinks, 3 krox. A really nice counter assault unit on a target thats been depleted by up to 200+ poison ranged attacks, 6 salamanders and a slann magic phase. Outside of the context of a list they look crap, inside the context of a ranged attack list they're solid.

Dark riders are my next favorite unit, you pay for a support unit that can easily get behind a battle line and harrass all day, split target selection, support combat on the flanks, shoot shoot shoot.

DE assassins hidden in shade units, again get them into an opponants flank and they'll do their job of racking up wounds for CR.


As for zombies, I think any unit that can be raised to control 400pt+ unit is an awesome asset to any list. This seems to be a 'hidden' strength for alot of people, when really it should be a key tactic when playing magic heavy VC.

TheMadMarquis
25-09-2011, 13:13
Empire Knights with lance and shield don't get much love, but I find a unit of 5 is very good as anti-chaff chaff. Nearly every army will have something they can mop up - Razorgors, ranked shooting, Hounds, Shades - and they can also double as a warmachine guard if you want to play more defensively, or be used to hold up low-S enemies for at least a turn.

Andy p
25-09-2011, 14:03
Poor old Night gobbo Squig hoppers, I love them, but bugger me if they arent just better left at home for something else.

However I still want to try a skirmishing horde of them :D.

theshoveller
25-09-2011, 15:38
Empire Knights with lance and shield don't get much love, but I find a unit of 5 is very good as anti-chaff chaff. Nearly every army will have something they can mop up - Razorgors, ranked shooting, Hounds, Shades - and they can also double as a warmachine guard if you want to play more defensively, or be used to hold up low-S enemies for at least a turn.
I love my Knights and their 1+ armour save...

bildo
25-09-2011, 15:42
hobgobs should be underdogs, but i agree.....they are good

MrCarbohydrate
25-09-2011, 16:44
Empire Spearmen. Everybody either wants Halberds, or Swordsmen.
In combination with the cheap mages, they can be surprisingly nasty too.

This is a great point. I loves the Spears; they're more thematic for the Empire I play, and with a Beast Wizard buffing them up, you're getting 3-4 rows of attacks instead of 2 at S4.

Granted this doesn't always come off, but when it does it can be quite a nasty little shock to the oppo.

Eternus
25-09-2011, 16:49
This is a great point. I loves the Spears; they're more thematic for the Empire I play, and with a Beast Wizard buffing them up, you're getting 3-4 rows of attacks instead of 2 at S4.

Granted this doesn't always come off, but when it does it can be quite a nasty little shock to the oppo.

Exactly the kind of thing that shows that every unit has it's place somewhere, even if it's detined to just be a speedbump! In 8th, the inherant improvements made to Infantry in general make many units better than they were in 7th under certain circumstances.

sssk
25-09-2011, 17:10
Poor old Night gobbo Squig hoppers, I love them, but bugger me if they arent just better left at home for something else.

However I still want to try a skirmishing horde of them :D.

I agree, "squoppers" are painfully expensive, but they're handy for guarding flanks as long as the enemy doesn't have anything too painful coming down there (ie super heavy cav... which will of course be hit by the doom diver battery). Their ability to move (and essentially charge) in any direction makes them difficult to get around. Skirmishing makes them not die immediately to shooting (that doesn't mean they'll last long, but they'll last longer than they would otherwise).

Needless to say if there's fast cav/skirmishers trying to get round your flank, 2 attacks per model at strength 5 and weapon skill 4 (side note: plus a goblin attack... yeah) and a reasonable initiative will mince things fairly quickly. Add in a big boss on a giant squig and they become relatively reliable. Expensive, but fun to have around.

On another side note, if there ARE super heavy cav coming down the flank, they get hit by the doom diver battery, and all of a sudden your squoppers are free to bounce over and attack enemy units from the sides/rear. Good for adding kills to combats with ranked gobbo units... as long as the enemy is either utterly hopeless, or sufficiently small (and low initiative) that you can kill them all before they can strike back at your toughness 3 balloons.

Often they're handy for bringing the hurt to monsters too (monsters tend to be low initiative and around toughness 5 or 6), and I believe they count as cavalry too (might be wrong here, haven't got the rules at hand to check) which would make them immune to thunderstomp.

Anyway, there are a couple of uses for them, I guess the problem is that usually they'll only survive to perform their use once every 10 games. Nice models though...

yabbadabba
25-09-2011, 17:17
Empire Spearmen and pistolliers. I can still get a good run out of both in this edition.

Oogie boogie boss
25-09-2011, 20:22
I think the Giant's getting too much grief these days. They're great anti-monster units, can destroy a Steam Tank like THAT (clicks fingers), are good for mopping up elite units, and are one of the few things that can operate consistently outside the General's leadership bubble in an OnG army. plus, they're really fun! =D

calnen
25-09-2011, 20:59
Regular Orcs. (And Goblins!)
I know they're not the optimal choice for the list, and in tournies people just take Savage Big'uns and Night Goblins as their core, but.. the army's called 'Orcs and Goblins'. What kind of general wouldn't take 50 of the guys?

Haravikk
25-09-2011, 21:30
Well, you're not exactly promoting the use of zombies directly, what you're saying here is that the spell Raise Dead has great use, but you would never pay the points for a unit of zombies.
Well, in a similar manner, it is actually perfectly reasonable to field a small unit of zombies, as they can be raised in size from the starting amount fairly easily. Even if you just do this using spare power dice in a magic phase that has gone well, they can reach a decent size fairly quickly. The problem is really with fielding large units at the start of the game, which isn't a good idea, but small units that are grown as quickly as you can spare are semi-viable.


WoC Frenzy W4+1 guys
You mean Forsaken? Assuming you do, while their D3 + 1 Attacks may seem underwhelming (since the average is 3 which you could get more reliably from regular Frenzied Warriors), what makes Forsaken useful is their Movement 6. Not a huge boon sure, but some smallish units can be useful in big games as they make a decent flanking unit without quite the same massive cost as Chaos Knights.


Bretonnian Questis (While in my opp they were buffed due to the new rules)
You mean nerfed? Being unable to strike first on the charge or reducing enemy return attacks has made the questing knights very fragile, high Strength or not, as they have a lesser save due to being unable to use shields. They still have their uses in a knights heavy list as they're semi-decent for dealing with high Toughness, you just have to be very careful about when you choose to send them in.


Empire Spearmen. Everybody either wants Halberds, or Swordsmen.
This was actually a reversal though I think? As everyone used to spearmen over halberdiers before, thanks the greater Wounds they could soak up before being unable to attack, but with Supporting Attacks everything with decent Strength but low attacks was automatically boosted.

Still, their ability to use shields can be nice, and if their Strength is boosted by magic their extra attacks will tell in the end. So properly supported they can still be a very nasty choice due to the extra rank, even more-so in a Horde if you've got the numbers!


I think the Giant's getting too much grief these days. They're great anti-monster units, can destroy a Steam Tank like THAT (clicks fingers), are good for mopping up elite units, and are one of the few things that can operate consistently outside the General's leadership bubble in an OnG army. plus, they're really fun! =D
Completely agree; though difficult to protect and not always reliable, they'll either keep missile fire away from the rest of the army, or be brilliant fun and probably leave a fair bit of carnage along the way, what more can you ask for? It might be able to fail you at the worst moments, but when it works, it really works.


Haven't seen any for Dwarfs, but the worst one currently is the Flame Cannon. Master engineers of the old world get to pay twice as much as skaven do for a less mobile, non-magical version of the same hard to use weapon, yay!

Gyrocopter is a contender as it's the only template capable weapon that still rolls partials (yay for terrible FAQ decisions!), and is otherwise generally over-priced. That said, it's still by far the best way for the Dwarf army to run-down enemy units that might otherwise get away once broken, and it can useful as a general pest (though it's better kept safe until some fleeing units need squashing or running from the battlefield).

Longbeards aren't very cost-effective, as with Great Weapons they cost a point more than Hammerers which are just better overall, and Panic isn't as dangerous as it used to be. That said, being Immune to Panic actually means they're immune to Terror (but not the Fear it causes), and as Core units you can get a lot of them. They also make a nasty Rangers choice.

Ironbreakers and Slayers are both slightly over-priced, but usable.

Skarsgard
25-09-2011, 22:26
Gladeriders

24 points for T3 6+ save with a longbow. 2 more points gets a wildrider.

Hard to like when for 12 pts you get a Gladeguard with a Gladeguard bow. But I love them to hunt warmachines.

ftayl5
25-09-2011, 22:42
Haven't seen anything for Skaven yet...
Doomflayers. Their biggest weakness is that they are easy to kill with just mild shooting. I would argue that it is unlikely that the enemy will be concerned with you little Doomflayer when you have it's bigger brother Doomwheel roaming around, or an Abomination or a Plague Furnace etc etc.
Doomflayers simply aren't going to attract that much fire.

As to their damage output, D3 Impact Hits isn't brilliant but they're nice and then, on average, 6 Strength 4 Hits, again is quite nice for 55pts. One of the problems they face here is the less than desirable initiative of 3 and at T3 with 1 Wound and just a 3+ armour save, they're not too hard to kill in combat before the can make their attacks.

However, they could be useful against anything with a low Initiative ie. Ghouls, Ogres, Trolls as well as reasonably armoured things like Chaos Warriors or Greatswords, you just have to hope they don't kill it first. :/

This is hard.

the gribbly
26-09-2011, 01:05
Wardancers. These guys used to be mainline combat troops. Now at 18 pts a pop for t3 skirmishers in the age of steadfast and step up their role has diminished. However I still like them due to their ability to headhunt characters and trump most other support units. Their broad range of abilities makes them a superior (if over costed) support choice. Plus they are still one of the coolest units in whf.

Sexiest_hero
26-09-2011, 02:47
Night runners. Poor guys suffer from "not slaves" syndrome. Give them slings, put them in a tower, and hurl death. Add stubborn crown, death globes, and a grey seer and launch the fireworks.

MrCarbohydrate
26-09-2011, 02:48
Longbeards aren't very cost-effective, as with Great Weapons they cost a point more than Hammerers which are just better overall, and Panic isn't as dangerous as it used to be. That said, being Immune to Panic actually means they're immune to Terror (but not the Fear it causes), and as Core units you can get a lot of them. They also make a nasty Rangers choice.

I've fond of my Longbeards. I actually have them kitted with Shield and HW, as they have Str 4 already, and that drops them down to a 4+AS with 4 Toughness, with GW on the regular Warriors.

Oogie boogie boss
26-09-2011, 11:16
Night runners. Poor guys suffer from "not slaves" syndrome. Give them slings, put them in a tower, and hurl death. Add stubborn crown, death globes, and a grey seer and launch the fireworks.

I think Night Runners are over priced for what they do. 2pts more than a Clanrat with Shield and Spear, and all you get is +1 M. And they have no armour. And they no longer skirmish.

Granted, i recently used a warpgrinder equipped horde unit of 60 in a big 16,000pt game against Dwarves, and they did REALLY well (routed and caught 3 Handgunner units, destroyed 2 cannon, and broke a Hammerer unit), but they were very expensive, and relied on the fact that i was getting rear charges on everything. I think they can be handy in big games, but for the points they aren't reliable or effective enough. Anything under 3,000-4,000pts and i'd rather have Clanrats.

Andy p
26-09-2011, 11:43
Regular Orcs. (And Goblins!)
I know they're not the optimal choice for the list, and in tournies people just take Savage Big'uns and Night Goblins as their core, but.. the army's called 'Orcs and Goblins'. What kind of general wouldn't take 50 of the guys?

Im not sure, I find normal orcs to be far more durable than the savage ones, the exception being if they have the shrunken head, but in that case only one unit will have it.

Big blocks of toughness 4, 5+ armour and 6+ parry save creatures, who are still pretty damn hitty, are quite hard to shift in my experience.

They are also a lot cheaper than savages. The night goblins, though, I agree with you there, they are unfortunately always better than common goblins, although I still use common ones for the fun of it :D.

SkawtheFalconer
26-09-2011, 11:58
Wardancers. These guys used to be mainline combat troops. Now at 18 pts a pop for t3 skirmishers in the age of steadfast and step up their role has diminished. However I still like them due to their ability to headhunt characters and trump most other support units. Their broad range of abilities makes them a superior (if over costed) support choice. Plus they are still one of the coolest units in whf.

Agreed on all counts. I usually just take a unit of 5 and charge them headlong into enemy characters. There's a fairly high chance they'll die, but they have an OK chance of taking the character down with them. Plus, as you say, the models almost justify it on their own. :)

Another Wood elf unit:

Warhawk Riders.

Yes, majorly overpriced for T3 6+ armour, but decent Warmachine hunters, and not terrible wizard hunters (they get a S4 stomp!)

Spyral
26-09-2011, 12:44
I use Frenzied marauders, no wizards and ogres in my Khorne army. Oh and warshrines. Yes its gimped but it's thematic. I like the dragon mages and HE shadow warriors too... pity they are also gimped!

badguyshaveallthefun
26-09-2011, 15:53
Lothern Sea Guard. They have bows instead of longbows and thus are inferior to archers in a dedicated missle support role, and they cannot use those bows once they get into combat, and thus they become overpriced spearmen. But damn those new models are sexy, and it's fun to be able to stand and shoot with a unit that won't fold the second a light breeze comes along in close combat.

Enigmatik1
26-09-2011, 16:23
I think Shadow Warriors take the cake, but High Elves in general have more than their share of these sorts of units (relative to the number of units available in the army).when you add in Bolt Throwers, Reavers and Silver Helms. They cost WAY too much for what they bring to the table. You know it's bad when you lose in close combat to Horse Archers (Reavers).

Skeleton Horsemen (not the Archers) are still bad, but they wouldn't be if Tomb Heralds got MWBD or at least Princes could ride horses and lead the unit.

Tomb Scorpions have become underdog units. Oh how the mighty have fallen. I haven't fielded one since the new book. I use Horse Archers to warmachine hunt now and they work surprisingly well for me.

Morax
26-09-2011, 16:32
Zombies: mobile powerdice battery. Whip a purple sun of xereus through the unit and watch the powerdice stack back up. You can take a few of the powerdice generated by that and refresh the unit leaving you with a net gain. Not a bad use for a unit. Also not bad for anchoring the flank of your bunker unit as units fast enough to get around there probably won't be the hardest hitting.

Sea Guard: I don't know about you but I like 70 attacks in the opening round of combat. That is precisely what a unit of 50+ gets when you combine horde, fight in extra rank, fight in extra extra rank and 20 stand and shoot shots. Buff them with regen/+2 T/mindrazor/Wyssian's for a deadly unit.

Empire Spearmen: See sea guard but cheap enough to actually be fielded in units of 50+.

Gyrocopter: Not a bad way of getting a +3 combat res when you need one. Charging and in the rear to a combat already started and with it's T5 it is likely to survive to give that bonus. Chaseing down fleeing units is a nice bonus that few units in that army list have. A gyrocopter sitting on a flank can force a unit to hold without even charging due to the sequence of charging. This can be a huge tactical advantage if used properly.

Pistoliers: See gyrocopter for flank charges and chasing down fleeing units. At 90 points for a unit of 5 they are not a huge investment and if properly used can make atleast some contribution to the game plan.

Oogie boogie boss
26-09-2011, 18:03
Zombies: mobile powerdice battery. Whip a purple sun of xereus through the unit and watch the powerdice stack back up. You can take a few of the powerdice generated by that and refresh the unit leaving you with a net gain. Not a bad use for a unit. Also not bad for anchoring the flank of your bunker unit as units fast enough to get around there probably won't be the hardest hitting.

Sea Guard: I don't know about you but I like 70 attacks in the opening round of combat. That is precisely what a unit of 50+ gets when you combine horde, fight in extra rank, fight in extra extra rank and 20 stand and shoot shots. Buff them with regen/+2 T/mindrazor/Wyssian's for a deadly unit.

Empire Spearmen: See sea guard but cheap enough to actually be fielded in units of 50+.

Gyrocopter: Not a bad way of getting a +3 combat res when you need one. Charging and in the rear to a combat already started and with it's T5 it is likely to survive to give that bonus. Chaseing down fleeing units is a nice bonus that few units in that army list have. A gyrocopter sitting on a flank can force a unit to hold without even charging due to the sequence of charging. This can be a huge tactical advantage if used properly.

Pistoliers: See gyrocopter for flank charges and chasing down fleeing units. At 90 points for a unit of 5 they are not a huge investment and if properly used can make atleast some contribution to the game plan.

Re: The Pistoliers- A friend of mine used to play Empire and his Pistoliers were the single most hated unit in his army for me.
The amount of fleeing units they stopped rallying, characters they killed, flank/rear charges they threatened, weapons teams they killed was ridiculous (i played Skaven, fyi). As far as i'm aware they can still perform all of those role admirably, so for the points i think they're one of the best Light Cavalry units out there.

LegioIgnatum
26-09-2011, 18:49
Razordons are the underdog unit for me. Salamanders are soooooo much better.

However I still try to use them. They can hold extreme flanks if opponent deploys light units like fast cav or small melee units by marching shooting an standing and shooting. Well Salamanders can do the same but I like the razordon models more and want to include a couple of them in friendly games.

badguyshaveallthefun
26-09-2011, 22:57
Sea Guard: I don't know about you but I like 70 attacks in the opening round of combat. That is precisely what a unit of 50+ gets when you combine horde, fight in extra rank, fight in extra extra rank and 20 stand and shoot shots. Buff them with regen/+2 T/mindrazor/Wyssian's for a deadly unit.


71 Actually, you forgot the Sea Master's extra attack ;)

sullaz
28-09-2011, 23:13
@Skarsgard

I'm starting to pick up Wood Elves, and I really want to like the poor, overcosted Glade Riders. I like the models but for 20% fewer points (vs a minimum sized unit of GRs), I can get two Great Eagles.

On the suggestions theme, they might be a good delivery vehicle for a mounted noble packing a Hail of Doom Arrow or for screening a unit of Wild Riders who are also advancing quickly down a flank.

Capt._Jaelinek
29-09-2011, 03:01
Love the DE executioner models, but with 8th rules they are stuck with the GW only, so strike last. You can buff them to strike at initiative with a Death Hag BSB and ASF banner, but it's expensive and Hag is fragile.

Otherwise, take lots of them and expect heavy casualties.

They would be ok supporting units (flank and rear charges) as the Move 5 is decent and with no supporting attacks to flank and rear they take less casualties.

They really deserve to be front line units, but can't think of any other reasonable ways to use them.

Eternus
29-09-2011, 07:47
Love the DE executioner models, but with 8th rules they are stuck with the GW only, so strike last. You can buff them to strike at initiative with a Death Hag BSB and ASF banner, but it's expensive and Hag is fragile.

Otherwise, take lots of them and expect heavy casualties.

They would be ok supporting units (flank and rear charges) as the Move 5 is decent and with no supporting attacks to flank and rear they take less casualties.

They really deserve to be front line units, but can't think of any other reasonable ways to use them.

A unit like this should target heavily armoured low attacks elite units, like Empire and Bretonnian Knights I think. With a move of 5, Elven units would be better at intercepting enemy units than say, humans or Dwarfs, and a unit like this could be good for guarding the flank of a large core infantry unit which itself could contain the BSB and/or general.

All units like this have become support units for the core of the army, rather than main frontline units themselves, though really, that's the way it should always have been. Core units are called core for a reason.

Rosstifer
29-09-2011, 10:22
I like using my Chaos Ogres, even though they are... sub-par.
Hit like a train with GW, can't take much back though!

Eternus
29-09-2011, 11:17
I like using my Chaos Ogres, even though they are... sub-par.
Hit like a train with GW, can't take much back though!

I think many units like this now work far better as supporting units for big blocks of infantry, because they can really rack up the casualties while the bigger units privide static combat res and hold the line through Steadfast, plus, they are far more maneouverable than larger units.

ewar
29-09-2011, 12:14
Love the DE executioner models, but with 8th rules they are stuck with the GW only, so strike last. You can buff them to strike at initiative with a Death Hag BSB and ASF banner, but it's expensive and Hag is fragile.

Otherwise, take lots of them and expect heavy casualties.

They would be ok supporting units (flank and rear charges) as the Move 5 is decent and with no supporting attacks to flank and rear they take less casualties.

They really deserve to be front line units, but can't think of any other reasonable ways to use them.

A unit of 40 executioners is a great unit - backed by the cauldron to add stubborn and ward (or additional attack) these guys will dice most units. Hatred, 30 or 40 attacks at WS5 S6 is very tough.

Has anyone got a use for the Bretonnian Relique?? Surely the most underdog unit there is! Crazy over priced for what, stubborn peasants!?

Eternus
29-09-2011, 12:23
Hey! Stubborn and Hatred, and some of coolest models there are!

Drakemaster
29-09-2011, 13:33
Has anyone got a use for the Bretonnian Relique?? Surely the most underdog unit there is! Crazy over priced for what, stubborn peasants!?
Its the only peasant unit that desn't need babysitting with Knights within 6". Other peasant units are LD 5 (6 with a champion). Grail Pilgrims are LD8. Very important difference - means the Reliquae can be left on its own to hold up the enemy, while a (cheaper) steadfast peasant block will need the addition of a babysitting knight unit (i.e. at least 120 points for 5) to give them the same LD. That pretty much soaks up the points differential between similarly sized units of peasants and Grail Pilgrims on its own, and the Pilgrims remain stubborn to the last man, have better armour, the HW&S ward, and hatred. Oh, and they get the Lady's blessing as well.

:D

Eternus
29-09-2011, 14:07
Its the only peasant unit that desn't need babysitting with Knights within 6". Other peasant units are LD 5 (6 with a champion). Grail Pilgrims are LD8. Very important difference - means the Reliquae can be left on its own to hold up the enemy, while a (cheaper) steadfast peasant block will need the addition of a babysitting knight unit (i.e. at least 120 points for 5) to give them the same LD. That pretty much soaks up the points differential between similarly sized units of peasants and Grail Pilgrims on its own, and the Pilgrims remain stubborn to the last man, have better armour, the HW&S ward, and hatred. Oh, and they get the Lady's blessing as well.

:D

Hell yeah, gimme some of that Pilgrim ass whuppin!

Tuttivillus
30-09-2011, 00:51
Has anyone got a use for the Bretonnian Relique?? Surely the most underdog unit there is! Crazy over priced for what, stubborn peasants!?

And, what more important they are very annoying to high strength hit units due to their 5+ WSv. Same what i did with horde of halberds men@arms, i have putted a damsel with the blessing item and sent them onto grave guard. They minced them with not so many casualties. Peasants rulez!!!

Oogie boogie boss
30-09-2011, 08:55
Giants. Awesome monster killers, great against expensive elites, and can automatically kill the most expensive, blinged out character out there.

Korraz
30-09-2011, 09:48
Has anyone got a use for the Bretonnian Relique?? Surely the most underdog unit there is! Crazy over priced for what, stubborn peasants!?

Watchtower. Good luck getting a bunch of those guys out of the tower.

raymon
30-09-2011, 10:00
Longbeards underdog? These guys rock! especially with an anvil of doom to back them up. The can really screw your enemies battle plan. You can place them last and as scouts so in a position where they can really bring the hurt. strength 5 throwing axes, any building becomes a pill box with these guys at 20 men strength. I rolled up entire gun batteries, killed hierophants when they thought to be safe, and made the crucial flank/rear charge when needed. These guys give you so much tactical options the fuz up your enemy. There great fun!

jamesgurney100
30-09-2011, 19:59
71 Actually, you forgot the Sea Master's extra attack ;)

Actually 86 you all forgot volly fire adding 15 more bow shots.

calnen
30-09-2011, 20:04
Actually 86 you all forgot volly fire adding 15 more bow shots.

You can't volley fire as a stand-and-shoot

Chicago Slim
03-10-2011, 00:58
Arrer Boyz. I actually won a 3000 point tourney game today, against the new Ogres, fielding 60 Arrers (in 3 units of 20), 50 Boyz (in a single mob), 5 chariots (one ridden by a Great Shaman), and a bunch of other stuff around the edges... but I've NEVER seen anybody else field Arrer Boyz in much force...

Eternus
03-10-2011, 08:57
Ok, another use for Zombies - a unit of 30, 5 wide and 6 deep. Deploy them alongside a unit of something hard, like Skellies with a Vamp and Wight King in the front rank, or GG with the same, and either wait for that hard unit to get charged or charge alongside them, into the flank of the enemy unit. Flanking in this way will hopefully employ the numbers of the Zombies to deny Steadfast to the enemy unit, remove their rank bonuses, and reduce the number of casualties caused to the rather squishy Zombies that might otherwise stack up the combat res in the enemies favour if they were attacking the Zombies to their front!

Gonna try this one out.

Dreadlordpaul
26-10-2011, 15:37
Zombies are actually awesome ive summoned a small unit of them and had them kill a grey seer not bad for troops with crap stats

Algovil
26-10-2011, 16:15
IMO zombies could be useful as redirectors. I often raise a small unit in front of enemy units I don't like to face head on just yet, flankers etc. If you angle them and place them close, the enemy unit has no choice than to charge the unit. Sure he will wipe them out, but then he either has to overrun, getting out of position or reform, in fact losing a turn. It will cost 50pts, for the lost unit, but you gain a turn, which can be critical. Like many other I never buy Zombies, but for raising they are great.

VC Skeletons is another underdog units, they are expensive, but the look of the models are so darn good that everthing is forgiven. Looking forward to seeing them at 5pts, 6pts with spears in the next book. Since TK skeletons are 4pts without light armour, this should be a given. Now an army of Skeletons and Graveguards might be possible again, never cared for ghouls anyway.