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Harwammer
25-09-2011, 11:43
Do lone characters get a 4+ Look Out Sir! versus hits caused by spells?

I've found a few quotes that seem relevant. For informed discussion I've posted them here (skip to the bottom if you know the rules/are too lazy to read):

"If a lone character is hit by a shooting attack of any kind ... a "Look Out Sir!" roll can be attemted" (p.97)

"Many spells inflict hits or wounds on your enemies - you can find out how to resolve these on page 40 of the Shooting Phase." (p.36)

"There are several circumstances in Warhammer that call upon you to inflict hits upon an enemy - spells being an obvious example... Such hits are resolved using steps [Roll to Wound, Saving Throws, Remove Casualties] of the rules for shooting attacks." (p.40)

"If a champion is hit by a template* as described above, there is a good chance a comrade will shout a warning" (p.93)

*"A champion cannot normally be targeted by enemy shooting attacks... The only exception to this are shooting attacks that do not use the normal shooting rules, specifically shooting attacks that use some form of template" (p.93)

"Q: Does the ‘Look Out Sir!’ special rule apply against all spells
that use templates? (p93)
A: Yes." (FAQ 1.5)


Essentially characters close to units can claim a LoS against shooting attacks (of any kind; Bs based, template or whatever), magic hits are resolved as shooting attacks (but seems to skip the LoS sir step). The Look Out Sir rule is used to save champions from shooting templates but this was expanded by FAQ to include spell templates.

Given that spell hits use steps 4-6 of the shooting hits resolution, would a lone character near a friendly unit be able to claim the 4+ LoS!

Harwammer
25-09-2011, 14:06
Thanls to everyone who has voted so far!

To elaborate on the poll options:

Yes (against all spell hits, same as shooting)

Yes (against spell templates, due to FAQ)

No

Other (please post why)

VOID BALLOT

I'd be interested to see the argument for 'No' which some one voted for if anyone could explain that position further!

Thanks again.

Scalebug
25-09-2011, 19:12
Heh, looking up this made me realise something I had been missing out on for a year now; Look out sir! for lone characters working against all shooting, not only templates... My poor engineer should only have been Arrowed! half as much as he has been while supporting my war machines... his widow will drag the gun crews to court over not protecting him against that High Elf Bolt Thrower as they should have done :p

But as to your question, I'd go with "Yes", with the restriction that it still needs to be a spell that is resolved as if was a shooting attack, eg. magic missiles.

The template question in the FAQ I feel is there to clarify that it is still a template, even if its effect is not neccearily resolved as, say, a stone thrower. I.e, still allows for a LOS! even if a hit results in, say, an Initiative test of removal, rather than a roll to wound and from that, damage. Not meaning only spells with templates allows a LOS! roll.

Harwammer
25-09-2011, 19:31
Heh, looking up this made me realise something I had been missing out on for a year now; Look out sir! for lone characters working against all shooting, not only templates... My poor engineer should only have been Arrowed! half as much as he has been while supporting my war machines... his widow will drag the gun crews to court over not protecting him against that High Elf Bolt Thrower as they should have done :p
It's a commonly overlooked rule, don't feel too bad for the engineer, he is only skaven/dwarf/human and life is cheap :P

That said, I wonder how many people, based on that misconception, have clicked yes (template only). Maybe I should start another thread asking if people think they can get the 4+ LoS against small arms or only templates to get an impression of how common this view is?


But as to your question, I'd go with "Yes", with the restriction that it still needs to be a spell that is resolved as if was a shooting attack, eg. magic missiles.

The template question in the FAQ I feel is there to clarify that it is still a template, even if its effect is not neccearily resolved as, say, a stone thrower. I.e, still allows for a LOS! even if a hit results in, say, an Initiative test of removal, rather than a roll to wound and from that, damage. Not meaning only spells with templates allows a LOS! roll.
Cool, thanks for elaborating on your thoughts. They make good sense! Sadly It seems it this isn't a clear cut issue (and sadly not the only one in WHFB)!

TMATK
25-09-2011, 19:33
A warmachine crew does grant look out sir. Only units of 5 or more models can do it.

Harwammer
25-09-2011, 19:34
A warmachine crew does grant look out sir. Only units of 5 or more models can do it.

Empire FAQ allows engineers a LOS! It's a bit of a curve ball and I guess it's there to make up for the fact they can no longer join warmachines as extra crew(?)

From another thread but on topic:

The rule for LOS from BS based shooting is crystal clear. Extending that to spells, not so much. Just because wounds from spells are distributed as shooting doesn't mean that lone characters get a 4+ LOS.

I think it's widely accepted that dwellers below doesn't grant characters a LOS roll. Assuming that's true how can lone characters get one?

This post does seem to sum up the uncertainty I have on the issue, although I don't recall ever considering Dwellers for LoS!

The in-game situation that bought up the question was a lone engineer being hit by Rot Glorious Rot close to a unit of militia . One of us thought the hits would fall under 'any kind of shooting', in the same way magic templates apparently do (FAQ) the other thought the LoS! was for shooting only (though that person hadn't seen the FAQ for magic templates).

From another thread but on topic:

FAQ adds spells to LoS

I could only see reference to template spells... have I missed a bit or are you infering templates (as a subsection of spells) allowing LoS! means spells in general are allowed it?

Loopstah
25-09-2011, 20:30
I would say no LoS vs spells that do not use a template.

I would class Magic Missiles and DD spells as ranged attacks not shooting attacks as they don't happen in the shooting phase, they also never mentioned "and spells" in the rules for lone characters and LoS for non-template attacks.

Harwammer
25-09-2011, 20:48
Interesting. Any suggestions why Template spells were FAQed to allow Look Out Sir?

Or is it foly to try rationalise the delphic snipets from GW's rules department?

Loopstah
25-09-2011, 20:52
Probably due to the fact LoS gives a save Vs Templates normally as you can't target champions or characters in units individually (with 5+ R&F) using non-template weapons. So they clarified that spell templates are templates as far as LoS is concerned.

Harwammer
25-09-2011, 21:01
Probably due to the fact LoS gives a save Vs Templates normally as you can't target champions or characters in units individually (with 5+ R&F) using non-template weapons. So they clarified that spell templates are templates as far as LoS is concerned.

I'm not sure about this.

Consider these quotes:
"If a champion is hit by a template as described above, there is a good chance a comrade will shout a warning" (p.93)

Page 93 defines "templates as described above" (in regards to LoS!) as "shooting attacks that do not use the normal shooting rules, specifically shooting attacks that use some form of template".

As such I don't belive LOS! gives a roll Vs Templates (beyond shooting), unless all templates (including spells) are considered to be shooting attacks*.

I hope that last sentence made sense as I had trouble writing it :S

* This raises the question: are other types of direct damage spells, e.g. magic missiles, considered shooting? They are, after all defined to use 3 stages of the shooting process for resolving damage.

Harwammer
27-09-2011, 11:24
Why have people voted 'No'?

I can't think of the logic to that position.

Please explain!

Yrrdead
27-09-2011, 17:59
I'm not sure about this.

Consider these quotes:
"If a champion is hit by a template as described above, there is a good chance a comrade will shout a warning" (p.93)

Page 93 defines "templates as described above" (in regards to LoS!) as "shooting attacks that do not use the normal shooting rules, specifically shooting attacks that use some form of template".

As such I don't belive LOS! gives a roll Vs Templates (beyond shooting), unless all templates (including spells) are considered to be shooting attacks*.

I hope that last sentence made sense as I had trouble writing it :S

* This raises the question: are other types of direct damage spells, e.g. magic missiles, considered shooting? They are, after all defined to use 3 stages of the shooting process for resolving damage.


It helps to quote the correct things. You used incorrect quotes. Make sure that you look at the FAQ errata on pg 3. Which specifies that you get LOS against all templates regardless of source, when inside a unit.

Spells are not shooting attacks. The LOS for lone characters is specific to shooting attacks. Though the resolution of hits and damage is resolved per the shooting rules, you will find the same is true of close combat damage. This isn't some crazy revelation. They simply wrote the rules for resolving damage in one place(shooting) and referenced that everywhere else.

On a side note, I personally don't find that the Rules forum is the place for a poll. Just because 20 people vote for something doesn't mean it is correct. Keep those in general please.


EDIT - It seems people are incorrectly conflating the LOS rule on page 93 and the rules for shooting at lone characters on pg96,97. You shouldn't do that.

Akkristor
27-09-2011, 18:21
My common sense tells me that they would get LOS from any spell hits that are from templates, or magic missile spells. Direct damage spells that are not Magic Missiles, like Awakening of the Wood, would not offer a LOS.

My rules lawyer sense tells my common sense to go sit in a corner and let the big kids play, and only templated spells get LOS.

Yrrdead
27-09-2011, 18:37
My common sense tells me that they would get LOS from any spell hits that are from templates, or magic missile spells. Direct damage spells that are not Magic Missiles, like Awakening of the Wood, would not offer a LOS.

My rules lawyer sense tells my common sense to go sit in a corner and let the big kids play, and only templated spells get LOS.

See that isn't even the question. This is about Lone Characters. Who don't receive a LOS from any spells. Only shooting attacks.

Harwammer
27-09-2011, 21:24
It helps to quote the correct things. You used incorrect quotes. Make sure that you look at the FAQ errata on pg 3. Which specifies that you get LOS against all templates regardless of source, when inside a unit.

Spells are not shooting attacks. The LOS for lone characters is specific to shooting attacks. Though the resolution of hits and damage is resolved per the shooting rules, you will find the same is true of close combat damage. This isn't some crazy revelation. They simply wrote the rules for resolving damage in one place(shooting) and referenced that everywhere else.

On a side note, I personally don't find that the Rules forum is the place for a poll. Just because 20 people vote for something doesn't mean it is correct. Keep those in general please.


EDIT - It seems people are incorrectly conflating the LOS rule on page 93 and the rules for shooting at lone characters on pg96,97. You shouldn't do that.

Thanks for your reply, it's given me a lot to think about! Unfortunately I've just returned from a birthday and my system is literally inundated with wine so I'll try to give you a proper response tomorrow!

In the mean time I will say a few things. Firstly I'm embarrassed at having made such a foetal mistake of forgetting to check the FAQs properly, especially after spending so long rummaging around the brb for snippets of salient information. In the words of one particularly famous character, "D'oh!".

Secondly, and I'll address this point more thoroughly tomorrow when I'm less disguised, is this: Yes, the rules on p 96, 97 are rules for shooting at lone characters, BUT they are also LOS! Rules. As LOS! Rules how can we dismiss the words of the faq and fail to allow the roll for the character against templates of any kind (I.e. Including spells)? Again, forgive me if my state of squiffiness has circumvented my sense, preventing me from seeing an obvious excuse for why not!

Anyway, I bid warseer farewell and good night. I'm going to grab a bottle of beer and fall asleep upon the sofa in front of the television!

Yrrdead
27-09-2011, 22:53
The wording of the FAQ you mention has a page number associated with it. That page number is 93. The Look Out Sir! on page 93 is not the same as Shooting at Lone Characters on page 96,97.

The problem is that there is effectively two separate rules that lead to confusion because of the usage of Look Out Sir! in both.

TMATK
27-09-2011, 23:57
I agree with Harhammer here, "LOS" is "LOS". The page number is just there for reference.

Yrrdead
28-09-2011, 01:29
Champions and Shooting
[...]A champion cannot normally be targeted by enemy shooting attacks - he can only be removed as a casualty if there are no other rank-and-file members of his unit left(not even the standard bearer or musician).

The only exceptions to this are attacks that use a template(such as cannons, stone throwers, breath weapons, magical vortexes and so on).

Fortunately, in these cases, a champion is so beloved by his unit that ordinary rank and file troops will attempt to save him - as represented by the "Look Out Sir!" rule (see below).


Bolded underlined bit is to denote the Errata'd bit.


LOOK OUT SIR!
If a champion is hit by a template as described above, there is a good chance a comrade will shout a warning or physically push him clear of incoming harm. Roll a D6. On a 1, the champion fails to hear the warning, or is too far away. He is hit and damage is resolved against him as normal. On a 2-6, the champion dives clear or is shoved aside - he is not hit by the attack. Unfortunately another member of the unit takes the strike meant for the champion (normally the noble soul who pushed the champion clear) - resolve the hit against the unit instead.

A "Look Out Sir!" roll cannot be made if there are less than five rank-and-file models(including the musician and standard bearer, but not the champion) left in the unit.

Now how do characters in units interact with the above?


Unusual Shooting Attacks
[...]If a character is hit by such an attack, and he is in a unit of at least 5 rank-and-file models(excluding the champion, if there is one) and he is of the same troop type as the unit, then his controlling player is permitted to make a "Look Out Sir!" roll to save him from harm. This works exactly as the "Look Out Sir!" rule described for unit champions on page 93. Simply put, on a roll of 2 or more, the hit does not strike the character, but instead is allocated to a rank-and-file model. If there are less than 5 rank-and-file models, the character does not get a Look Out Sir! roll and is hit.[...]


On to Lone Characters.


Shooting At Lone Characters
[...]If a lone character is hit by a shooting attack of any kind (including shots fired using ballistic skill, templates and so on) a "Look Out Sir!" roll can be attempted, provided there is a friendly unit consisting of five or more models of the character's troop type within 3". Roll a D6. On a roll of 4_, the character has been successfully forewarned or otherwise preserved from harm by his nearby allies - the hit is transferred to a model in the friendly unit (if there is more than one eligible unit within 3", the controlling player can decide which made the honorable sacrifice). Otherwise, the hit is resolved against the character as normal.

You'll notice that the chance of this "Look Out Sir!" roll succeeding is far slimmer than the one discussed elsewhere. This is only fitting as it's far harder to warn a friend from a distance than if he's stood a few paces away.

If it isn't obvious upon reading all of the above, that Lone Characters may make a LOS roll against shooting attacks only, than nothing else I say is going to help.

TMATK
28-09-2011, 02:00
I have the rules, thanks ;)

My point is that the page number in the FAQ is just there for reference, so the reader has an idea of what they are referring to. I think your being too literal if you think it pertains to only the reference on p93.

Regardless of how it's laid out in the book, "Look out Sir" is one special rule, not 2.

Yrrdead
28-09-2011, 02:20
LOS sir refers to the avoidance of damage due to either a unit you are in or nearby (of the same unit type). Which damage is avoidable is dependent on which situation you are in as I showed above.

A lone character can only avoid shooting damage. Because that is what it says on page 96,97.

How is that unclear?

As to the FAQ, say what? You say it is a just a reference. But not to use it as a reference? I think you are using too broad a brush in regards to FAQ's.

Harwammer
29-09-2011, 07:38
Caution! This post contains RAI based on FAQ inconsistencies.

Unusual Shooting Attacks (p.99)
[...]If a character is hit by such an attack, and he is in a unit of at least 5 rank-and-file models(excluding the champion, if there is one) and he is of the same troop type as the unit, then his controlling player is permitted to make a "Look Out Sir!" roll to save him from harm. This works exactly as the "Look Out Sir!" rule described for unit champions on page 93. Simply put, on a roll of 2 or more, the hit does not strike the character, but instead is allocated to a rank-and-file model. If there are less than 5 rank-and-file models, the character does not get a Look Out Sir! roll and is hit.[...]
I was interested in seeing what the first ellipses was an abbreviation of.

It talks about how to distribute BS based shooting hits among units of different sizes containing a character/characters. It goes on to say:

The only exception to this are shooting attacks that do not use the normal shooting rules, specifically, shooting attacks that use some form of template (such as cannons, stone throwers, breath weapons and so on).

Seeing as character (in unit) LOS! "works exactly as the LOS! rule described for unit champions" we know this phrase on p99 should have been updated in the same FAQ as the identical phrase on p93.

This admittedly proves nothing beyond GW being un-thorough and failing to properly update the character LOS! section. However it is evidence that LOS! is intended to give protection vs shooting AND magic templates rather than just against shooting (preFAQ). With this on mind it isn't unreasonable to extend spell template protection to lone character LOS!

Speculatively, based on that previous point we could go further and say, where LOS! is supposed to protect against both magic and shooting hits the un-updated the rules only state shooting (this was the situation for template hits preFAQ).

Yrrdead
29-09-2011, 07:56
I still think you are missing my point that the LOS! in a unit is completely different from the LOS given to a lone character in range of a unit of the same type.

Actually , I shouldn't say you are missing my point. I think you get what I'm trying to say.

Harwammer
29-09-2011, 09:08
I get you completely, in fact you have a such well reasoned and thought out argument supported thoroughly by the rules I would have absolutely zero problem playing it that way. In fact the way the rules are currently written it is probably the most correct way!

However, given the Lone character LOS! is supposed to be a lesser form of protection (in loose emulation) of that a character receives for being in a unit coupled with un-thorough/inconsistent faq on unusual shooting attacks / shooting templates I can understand the reasons the poll results came through the way they did.

Sadly I added the poll in hope to find a consensus on whether shooting attacks covers spell hits (given the faq changing templates to include spells) but this poll is inconclusive.

Considering the mixed responses alongside your own (very strong) argument I guess this is just another issue to throw into the 'house rule, discuss before game or ask the tournament organiser' bin.