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Fawful
26-09-2011, 11:09
The book has been released to the public on the last gamesday. Did anyone pick it up yet? If so, what is your opinion on the book. Did they smooth out some of the more glaring rules issues or is it just a general rebalance? My main interest is in the changes they made to the great unclean one and the tomb stalker so any info on that would be much appreciated.

laudarkul
26-09-2011, 11:14
If anyone bought it, could tell us about the content (if there are new units compared with the last one)? Thank you.

Fawful
26-09-2011, 11:18
If anyone bought it, could tell us about the content (if there are new units compared with the last one)? Thank you.

You can see the (blurry) content page on the Forgeworld site. Link (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/IMPERIAL-ARMOUR-APOCALYPSE-SECOND-EDITION.html) Second picture, press ctrl and + to zoom in.

jt.glass
26-09-2011, 12:27
You can see the (blurry) content page on the Forgeworld site. Link (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/IMPERIAL-ARMOUR-APOCALYPSE-SECOND-EDITION.html) Second picture, press ctrl and + to zoom in.Interesting. I had thought that the 2nd edition would have everything the original had (updated to 5th edition), plus some extra stuff but that doesn't seem to be the case.

In particular, Damocles Pattern Rhino (which could do with some updating) doesn't seem to be there!


jt.

AndrewGPaul
26-09-2011, 12:48
More to the point, the Shadowsword isn't there. Thing is, it's not in the original Apocalypse book, Apocalypse Reload or Imperial Armour: Apocalypse II either.

Killgore
26-09-2011, 12:50
Why touch things that dont need updating?

Alot of units from the original books were fine imho

What did they do to the Chaos Warhound in the new book?

jt.glass
26-09-2011, 14:06
Why touch things that dont need updating?Because you are replacing the book that had them in? :wtf:

Also, the Damocles-pattern Rhino did need updating, hence my looking for it in the TOC...


jt.

Chem-Dog
26-09-2011, 14:17
More to the point, the Shadowsword isn't there. Thing is, it's not in the original Apocalypse book, Apocalypse Reload or Imperial Armour: Apocalypse II either.

IIRC, it's covered in Apocalypse:Reload, which would make repreating it's rules in IA:AII (catchy innit? :)) something of a redundancy, no?

AmKhaibitu
26-09-2011, 15:37
I'm most interested in any changes with the finalised rules for the Reaper.

I'm planning to order the book and the tantalus together, and since I already have a reaper it would be useful to know.

eldargal
26-09-2011, 15:54
A little titbit of information from BoLS:

Another thing that was answered by me is that FW have updated all they can from "thier" books (IA)

The FW models in the Apoc books (including Reload) are in GW's hands. So even though they know the Heirphant needs updating they can't do anything.

They also mentioned one day just comining Apoc 1, 2 and most of reloaded into one massive book
So that explains why some FW models are getting new rules and not others.

eastern barbarian
27-09-2011, 00:31
Had a look today and was totally devastated. Ork lifta droppa wagon which allowed me to field semi-competitive ork army that was different from a codex one that most of people take (IA8 Dreadbash mob) just got turned into driving pile of poo that costs a lot and can even blow up itself...Cant really say much about other entires as I didnt have time to have a look properly, but level of nerfing on that vehicle is totally ridiculous. I wonder if other updated vehicles suffered the same fate.
I am not sure who's feedback they were listening to, but I imagine people usually don't bother to write that they like something, whether complaints come easier... there was no need for such a drastic change though.. and leaving it costing exactly same amount of points as before. Even people that hated liftew droppa in my club said it was far too drastic and made it "never take" choice.

Getz
27-09-2011, 00:53
I'm not surprised they Nerfed the Lifta-Droppa wagon. We've got a chap using one locally and it's hideously over powered. Whenever he uses it, games either revolve around killing it as quickly as possible before it wrecks any armour you have - or you show up with an all infantry army at which point it's totally useless.

With the IA8 rules it doesn't roll to hit and it doesn't need line of sight - it just inflicts D6 glancing hits on any vehicle in range and potentially more to nearby units. Because it's expensive and he only uses one it's managable, but if he brought three to a game? <shudder>

Ravenous
27-09-2011, 00:56
Why touch things that dont need updating?

Because they want to sell $100 books as often as possible, essentially forcing you to buy or pirate one to use your dumb expensive models.

Ozendorph
27-09-2011, 01:02
Because they want to sell $100 books as often as possible, essentially forcing you to buy or pirate one to use your dumb expensive models.

Couldn't agree less. No one is forcing anyone to buy or pirate anything, and what exactly qualifies as "dumb" about FW models? If you enjoy them, buy them. If you don't...

eastern barbarian
27-09-2011, 01:10
Getz- there is a big difference between nerfing and making something TOTALLY useless.

Basically- hits on 4+ (always needed line of sight, anybody with a bit of common sense would agree to that and thats how we used it locally), on 1 you roll on a mishap table (and results there are really not pretty most of the time, including opposing player using your lifta against any taget he/she chooses). Poin cost exactly the same. All cover saves and invulnerable saves can be take against each hit and it causes d3 penetrating hits instead of d6 glances . So who would seriously consider paying 250 odd points for something that is open topped, hits only half of the time and can blow itself up even with nobody shooting at it or shoot your own units instead?

Getz
27-09-2011, 01:20
Maybe they've nerfed it harder than they needed to, but it still needed nerfing.

eastern barbarian
27-09-2011, 01:57
Well, main problem was that the rules were very unclear and allowed for lots of abuse (common FW rules trait) , locally we quickly arranged few house rulings and it was all ok.
I am just wondering if they ever playtest things in FW, because surely somebody must have told them that after those changes this vehicle will be totally useless. I do feel vert bitter about it and forced into going for tried and boring Codex Ork lists instead of experimenting with very fluffy Dreadbash mob list. Also people forget that lifta wagon was allowed ONLY in dreadbash mob list that has a lot of weak points that normal codex doesnt have (no nobs with PK and bosspoles in boyz units for example being main one but also no mega nobz, no bikers of any sorts, more expensive nobz etc..). Lifta droppa was the only thing that gave me a little bit of edge against all those broken GK armies around , no there is no point even bothering as my kan wall would get raped in a turn by GK autocannon dread spam. But I suppose Orks are so terribly overpowered they really needed sorting out ;) Must have been all those GK and Blood angels players not getting their auto-wins anymore complaing ha ha ;)

As I said- I havent really read other entires (apart from chaos contemptor that actually sounds very interesting, even if very expensive point wise) so not sure what and how other entires got changed , so will have another look soon and see.
Visually of course the usual standard. Glossy paper, lots of colour etc.

StratManKudzu
27-09-2011, 02:03
wouldn't the rules in IA8 remain unaffected by IAA2e those rules apply to ork armies using those units in Apocalypse games versus the dreadbash list in IA8 which is independent, like the krieg rules in relation to any guard army using krieg units? or I could be mistaken.

eastern barbarian
27-09-2011, 02:06
thats kind of playing a lawyer game now.. down my local club newest book is the one that applies so if there are two sets of rules the newer one will be used.

Col. Dash
27-09-2011, 02:32
Umm what happens if no one has paid the money for the new book even though you know it has changed?

unheilig
27-09-2011, 02:54
Umm what happens if no one has paid the money for the new book even though you know it has changed?

Same as any codex or game edition?

Soupcat
27-09-2011, 02:55
Anyone know what the nurfs to angrath the unbound supposdly are?

eldargal
27-09-2011, 05:38
I know your funny American currencies are nearly worthless now (:p), but how did a shade under thirty pounds inc. international shipping become a one hundred dollar book. It is around forty five dollars.


Because they want to sell $100 books as often as possible, essentially forcing you to buy or pirate one to use your dumb expensive models.

eastern barbarian
27-09-2011, 09:07
eldargal, you have to remember that GW/FW pricing in different countries is often twice of what we pay here in UK.

AndrewGPaul
27-09-2011, 09:08
IIRC, it's covered in Apocalypse:Reload, which would make repreating it's rules in IA:AII (catchy innit? :)) something of a redundancy, no?

If that's true, then fair enough. I'm sure I checked the contents page of A:R and didn't see it, though. Maybe I should make a table of which units are in which book.

ehlijen
27-09-2011, 09:25
A 50-50 chance to cause d3 penetrating hits on a landraider or monolith actually sounds pretty good.

eastern barbarian
27-09-2011, 10:48
thats providing it doesnt blow itself up on 1, land raider doesnt have a cover save (harder for monolith of course ;) and all of that for 235 points basic with open topped and weapon destroyed result being extra penetrating hit. Hardly worth the points.

Ravenous
27-09-2011, 11:46
I know your funny American currencies are nearly worthless now (:p), but how did a shade under thirty pounds inc. international shipping become a one hundred dollar book. It is around forty five dollars.

It should be!

The model master class book is the same price and it cost me $70 Canadian.


Couldn't agree less. No one is forcing anyone to buy or pirate anything,

Unless you want to stay current of course, no one 100% enjoys playing against old rules when the new one is out, and if they do they might as well let you play 3.5 chaos because GW didnt force you buy the new terrible book.


and what exactly qualifies as "dumb" about FW models? If you enjoy them, buy them. If you don't...

I do enjoy them as Im a proud owner of a krieg army and a phantom, but step back and look at what you are spending and how often you use it. Suddenly it looks more and more like a waste of money, especially compared to other things you can buy in the world.

It just compounds when you spend $200+ on 1 model that gets changed for the worse, because now its a fancy paper weight.

ehlijen
27-09-2011, 12:41
thats providing it doesnt blow itself up on 1, land raider doesnt have a cover save (harder for monolith of course ;) and all of that for 235 points basic with open topped and weapon destroyed result being extra penetrating hit. Hardly worth the points.

So it's a glass hammer. Big deal. The fact that it doesn't care about AVs is pretty good (unless I got that wrong?).

eastern barbarian
27-09-2011, 12:49
no, it doesnt but the chance of pulling that hit is very slim

you have to be in range (no problem with 48)
you have to roll 4+ (so 50/50 chance) and not roll 1 to avoid something horrible.
Assuming you got the first turn and you are still alive at the end of it (and you can bet there will be a lot of things shooting at it... any penetrating hit is potentially devastating as its open topped without an option to give it hard case and weapon destroyed causes extra penetrating hit).

Then you got d3 pen hits, with a good chance of rolling 1. Then they get a cover save/invulnerable save. yes, if you are lucky you will get one shot out of it and it will kill somwething., That if you are lucky. And its 235 points without any upgrades whatsoever being most expensive heavy choice in the army. Calling it a hammer, even made of glass its a bot of overstament. If its a hammer then its two handed and really cumbersome and difficult to swing.


As I said- even the players that hated it thought its useless now and nerfing was extremely harsh (and thats really says something coming from those guys).

Ozendorph
27-09-2011, 16:35
Unless you want to stay current of course, no one 100% enjoys playing against old rules when the new one is out, and if they do they might as well let you play 3.5 chaos because GW didnt force you buy the new terrible book.

Well, I guess that's all personal circumstance. In my gaming world, FW units are only used in casual (non-tournament) games, so no one particularly cares if the latest, greatest rules are in effect. But I could see that being a problem for some.



I do enjoy them as Im a proud owner of a krieg army and a phantom, but step back and look at what you are spending and how often you use it. Suddenly it looks more and more like a waste of money, especially compared to other things you can buy in the world.

I suppose it would be more practical to buy a good chair, or some canned food, but I don't think many of us play war games because we deemed it to be the most productive use of time and money possible ;)

btw I am jealous of your krieg army.

Axel
27-09-2011, 19:14
thats kind of playing a lawyer game now.. down my local club newest book is the one that applies so if there are two sets of rules the newer one will be used.

Hmmm....

I remember that new rules for Rhinos or equipment did NOT apply to elder codizes unless these were specifically FAQed.

I would say that a codex prevails, unless the rule admentment specifically tells you it overrules the other version.

Anyway, nobody who plays against a FW-list will probably be rules-lawyering for advantage. Its all consent anyway, so just talk about it...

mountaincycle661
27-09-2011, 20:15
Does anyone have any information about the rules changes to Anggrath, the keeper of secrets and Scabiethrax? Ive looked everywhere and Im really curious. I heard they got nerfed, but that was just rumor through the grapevine. anything solid would be greatly appreciated.

sidcom
27-09-2011, 22:23
you can see on blurry pictures from FW that Zarakynel now have two number initiative (therefore it must be 10) and some new shooting attack, Nurgle greater demon SC next to her (whose name I forgotten) also seems to have some new abilities guessing from the lenghth of the text and number of paragraphs, so they may even get some buffs

if nothing else I hope you can deploy them daemon way now, so you can take them with pure daemon army without need to take chaos marines to posess

TheLaughingGod
27-09-2011, 23:07
no, it doesnt but the chance of pulling that hit is very slim

you have to be in range (no problem with 48)
you have to roll 4+ (so 50/50 chance) and not roll 1 to avoid something horrible.
Assuming you got the first turn and you are still alive at the end of it (and you can bet there will be a lot of things shooting at it... any penetrating hit is potentially devastating as its open topped without an option to give it hard case and weapon destroyed causes extra penetrating hit).

Then you got d3 pen hits, with a good chance of rolling 1. Then they get a cover save/invulnerable save. yes, if you are lucky you will get one shot out of it and it will kill somwething., That if you are lucky. And its 235 points without any upgrades whatsoever being most expensive heavy choice in the army. Calling it a hammer, even made of glass its a bot of overstament. If its a hammer then its two handed and really cumbersome and difficult to swing.


As I said- even the players that hated it thought its useless now and nerfing was extremely harsh (and thats really says something coming from those guys).

..wait, lets compare this to a Railgun on a Hammerhead. Chance to hit, 67%. 1 in 6 change of not penetrating. Cover and invul saves allowed. One damage result max.

Liftadroppa, 50% chance to hit, cover save and d3 auto pens. (Plus effects on other vehicles?) so basically its a strength D weapon that allows cover.

boo hoo.

eastern barbarian
28-09-2011, 00:51
How much does Hammerhead cost? As far as I remember its not anywhere close to 235 points basic. PLus its a skimmer and fast vehicle. Can it blow itself up?
Its totally wrong type of a model to compare.

mountaincycle661
28-09-2011, 01:28
you can see on blurry pictures from FW that Zarakynel now have two number initiative (therefore it must be 10) and some new shooting attack, Nurgle greater demon SC next to her (whose name I forgotten) also seems to have some new abilities guessing from the lenghth of the text and number of paragraphs, so they may even get some buffs

if nothing else I hope you can deploy them daemon way now, so you can take them with pure daemon army without need to take chaos marines to posess



Hooray for the slaanesh demon actually having the best Int possible! You'd figure that would have been a no-brainer from the get go :rolleyes:

Anybody else got any info on the rehashed version of these big guys' rules?

ehlijen
28-09-2011, 01:48
How much does Hammerhead cost? As far as I remember its not anywhere close to 235 points basic. PLus its a skimmer and fast vehicle. Can it blow itself up?
Its totally wrong type of a model to compare.

So the lifta droppa is situational. Doesn't make it not powerful. Being able to point at a landraider and give it d3 penetrating hits more easily than others can give it one is good and should cost a lot.

Yes, it sucks against rhinos or vypers, cost efficiency wise, but since it makes a mockery out of AV14, which those AV14 vehicles pay a lot for, it should cost a lot.

4s to hit? Not too bad, most AT weapons hit on 3s or 4s. No roll to penetrate, that's bloody good as most other weapons need at least a 4+ to even glance AV14. d3 damage results sure beats 1. Saves, everyone has to go through.

So it gets hot and isn't too resilient? That's the price you pay for excessive firepower. It sounds as though it's meant to shred superheavies apart, rather than be used in standard 40k, and spending 235 to possibly rip a baneblade in three first turn? definitely worth it.

Noserenda
28-09-2011, 01:59
Plus the old lifta droppa rules were hideously unfun, I had an awful game against two once where my armour was completely neutralised with barely a dice roll :( Hitting on a 4+ seems pretty fair to me.

eastern barbarian
28-09-2011, 02:18
ehlijen- it doesnt work againsy super heavy vehicles. If it would then it definitely would be a good choice for apocalypse games.

I will repeat it once again and thats my subjective opinion- I dont mind it nerfed, actually few things just had to be clarified anyway (and locally we were playing with cover saves anyway as a house clarification).

4s to hit- let me see- most of other weapons that have good antitank ability and hit on 4s have better armour, cost well below 200 points, are not open topped, do not take extra penetrating hit from weapon destroyed result etc etc etc. So really no, it is not a good deal at all and I am not joking when I am saying that every single person in the club when they were looking at the book said new Lifta is a no brainer as in "never bother to take". Pity. And once again- people treat this vehicle out of context- it can be taken only in that one particular army list that doesnt have half of things that make orks quite hard, so actually nerf is much bigger.
Of course some will disagree but then we will just have to agree to disagree.

As I said before- I reserve my general judgement about the book till i actually can read it all, so far its not enough for me to form an opinion. Did have a look at chaos contemptor- definitely looked interesting with tons of different options (and what was very cool possibility of giving it different marks of chaos!)but pretty pricey as well.

@Noserenda, I lost all my vehicle to Blood Angel armies in one turn more than once and that was very unfun as well. Not even mentioning GK, as I dont play friendly games against them and luckily managed to avoid them in torunaments (mostly because they occupy all top places and recently I was experimenting with more fun lists) but have seen mates ork armies getting raped in one turn by GK autocannon/.razorback/whatever else they have. Looked extremely unfun as well. And it happned definitely more than once ;)

ehlijen
28-09-2011, 06:53
Most other AT weapons don't autopenetrate. That's the big lump of your cost right there: the ability to thump your nose at landraiders and say 'you wasted points on AV? Haha!'. It's costed based on its potential, not it's general utility. And it's potential is amazing.

sidcom
28-09-2011, 11:59
Not to mention fact that it is ONLY ranged weapon in Ork arsenal that can reliably destroy Landraiders and AV14

I play Orks and actually find it pretty good, it can blow itself, yes, but what kind of Orky player are you if you whine about things like this, Ork technology is not reliable, especially if they try to toy with hight tech gadgets like this

all I can say is "deal with it :cool:"

eastern barbarian
28-09-2011, 12:50
hm. reliably?? you must be joking amigo....:) And yes, I had my rant and I am dealing with it. I think part of the problem is that it WAS reliable and good, one thing that could be relied upon in that army and now somebody comes and takes it away. Why wind people up by giving them something good and then taking it away in short period of time?
FW should really playtest their things much more, I doubt they do it at all, which is why their stuff is often either totally overpriced/useless for its points or small minority being really overpowered.

Anyway, anybody had a head and can tell us more about changes to other stuff?

Getz
28-09-2011, 14:26
hm. reliably?? you must be joking amigo....:) And yes, I had my rant and I am dealing with it. I think part of the problem is that it WAS reliable and good, one thing that could be relied upon in that army and now somebody comes and takes it away. Why wind people up by giving them something good and then taking it away in short period of time?
FW should really playtest their things much more, I doubt they do it at all, which is why their stuff is often either totally overpriced/useless for its points or small minority being really overpowered.

Anyway, anybody had a head and can tell us more about changes to other stuff?

The thing about the Lifta Droppa is that it had been taken unaltered from the Mekboy stompa rules. In apocalypse it's a so-so weapon - moderate range and damage compared to most Titan scale weapons and useless against super heavies. In normal games of 40K it was unholy strong.

Chem-Dog
28-09-2011, 15:47
If that's true, then fair enough. I'm sure I checked the contents page of A:R and didn't see it, though. Maybe I should make a table of which units are in which book.

I looked, I was wrong. The only IG superheavies mentioned in A:R are the Baneblade Squadron and the Stormlord....Still, there's PDF's....maybe that's the reason it's not been re-covered?

cuda1179
28-09-2011, 17:46
The Shadowsword may be covered elsewhere. There is a rumor that the main Aopc. book is going to be redone. It really doesn't make sence for GW to have a large plastic kit without rules for it, so I assume GW will put the shadowsword into the main Apoc. book when it is redone.

Inquisitor Kallus
28-09-2011, 17:58
Shadowsword....

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2440065_Imperial_Guard_Datasheet_-_Shadowsword.pdf

and this is where you need to go to find it...

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440317a&categoryId=900006&section=&aId=3400020

djc
28-09-2011, 19:36
Hooray for the slaanesh demon actually having the best Int possible! You'd figure that would have been a no-brainer from the get go :rolleyes:

Anybody else got any info on the rehashed version of these big guys' rules?


Some buffs, some nerfs. Overall I'd say nerfed, though.

Some points from memory;

Zarakynel has a better save and auto warptime, but now no longer ignores invulnerable saves

Papa Gaap has gained FNP and a hellstorm shooting attack, but has dropped to 6 (!) wounds

And I now weep for my Anggrath as they have given him rage.

Mannimarco
28-09-2011, 19:47
Some buffs, some nerfs. Overall I'd say nerfed, though.

Some points from memory;

Zarakynel has a better save and auto warptime, but now no longer ignores invulnerable saves

Papa Gaap has gained FNP and a hellstorm shooting attack, but has dropped to 6 (!) wounds

And I now weep for my Anggrath as they have given him rage.

They nerfed my daemon lords! :mad:

Ok auto warptime is a nice boost but she(it?) cant be sent into the inevitable waves of THSS termys and hope to walk out the other side now.

FNP on Scabby should have been there from the start (a GUO without FNP?). Hes still pretty tough and survivable but the wounds is a little bit of a kicker.

sidcom
28-09-2011, 20:01
Some buffs, some nerfs. Overall I'd say nerfed, though.

Some points from memory;

Zarakynel has a better save and auto warptime, but now no longer ignores invulnerable saves

Papa Gaap has gained FNP and a hellstorm shooting attack, but has dropped to 6 (!) wounds

And I now weep for my Anggrath as they have given him rage.

6 wounds? Are you kidding me? so he is just one wound better than regular GUO? Also, FNP is useless as he is high toughness and most S9/10 weapons are AP2 anyways.. this is just meh

kasrkinsquad
28-09-2011, 20:52
I broke down and ordered the book. I was trying to resist but the Wraithseer, hornet, and warp hunter rules won me over. Anyone read the rules for them are they different in anyway from the experimental.

Hendarion
29-09-2011, 07:47
So guys, how do read the Spirit Stones rules of the Phantom? Additionally to holofields and the Primary Weapon rule (ignore shaken on 4+) or just instead of the Primary Weapon rule? I'm not sure if they add up or if FW has just expressed themselves a bit blurry (as always actually).

meanmachine
29-09-2011, 09:06
Some buffs, some nerfs. Overall I'd say nerfed, though.

Some points from memory;

Zarakynel has a better save and auto warptime, but now no longer ignores invulnerable saves

Papa Gaap has gained FNP and a hellstorm shooting attack, but has dropped to 6 (!) wounds

And I now weep for my Anggrath as they have given him rage.

this could have been a good opportunity to fix anggrath's daemonic flight to mach that of the lord of change daemon lord, atm he moves the same speed as the nurgle daemon lord. i doubt forgeworld would have done it though

meanmachine
29-09-2011, 09:07
6 wounds? Are you kidding me? so he is just one wound better than regular GUO? Also, FNP is useless as he is high toughness and most S9/10 weapons are AP2 anyways.. this is just meh

at least you will get fnp saves from missle launchers & autocannons now, they are very common weapons

sidcom
29-09-2011, 14:23
at least you will get fnp saves from missle launchers & autocannons now, they are very common weapons

Autocannons would wound him on 6+ anyway (if they didnt nerf his toughness too), I doubt someone would bother (especially in apoc where are usually much better targets for ACs)

Bonzai
29-09-2011, 15:07
I ordered mine. I didn't own the first one, so it was no loss buying the new one. Plus it has so much of the new things that they have come out with. Wraithseer, Tomb Stalker, Contemptor, etc.. It will be well worth it to have in Apoc games for reference.

My biggest hope is that they finally did a propper write up for the dreadclaw. Made it clear that it's an assault vehicle, and spelled out the drop pod deployment for good measure.

On a related note, I noticed no Deathstorm Drop Pods. That has not been a GW model, or covered in the Apoc books. Though you never know, it could be up for grabs in 6th edition.

djc
29-09-2011, 17:47
this could have been a good opportunity to fix anggrath's daemonic flight to mach that of the lord of change daemon lord, atm he moves the same speed as the nurgle daemon lord. i doubt forgeworld would have done it though


They have! He can now move 12" normally, or 24" as jump infantry. But, rage. *sigh*

Oh, and Gaap now moves 6".

meanmachine
29-09-2011, 17:51
They have! He can now move 12" normally, or 24" as jump infantry. But, rage. *sigh*

Oh, and Gaap now moves 6".

oh thats not so bad then

can he assault after moving 24", if yes i dont care about rage what he moves towards is going down anyway

Sildani
29-09-2011, 18:00
Fine, I'll ask outright. Did they give the Warp Hunter's primary fire mode a large blast marker?

djc
29-09-2011, 18:45
oh thats not so bad then

can he assault after moving 24", if yes i dont care about rage what he moves towards is going down anyway

Yes, he can. He may destroy everything he touches, but *I* would like to choose what my 888 point model charges, not my opponent.


Fine, I'll ask outright. Did they give the Warp Hunter's primary fire mode a large blast marker?

5" blast or template.

magriller
29-09-2011, 23:18
I do fancy picking this up, but it won't be for a little while yet. Can someone tell me what changes they have made to the macharius tanks please. Hopefully they haven't been nerfed and their points have been adjusted...

Magriller

MajorWesJanson
01-10-2011, 02:37
Rage on Anngy is OK, and makes some sense. He is a beast otherwise. Increased speed more than makes up for it.

Loss of ignoring Invul saves makes sense as well, as all weapons that ignore Invul saves seem to be going away.

-Loki-
01-10-2011, 02:57
So, can anyone give us a rundown of the Tyranid stuff? Specifically the Stone Crusher and Malanthrope?

Sgt John Keel
01-10-2011, 02:57
Rage is fine on Anggrath i suppose. After flying 24", you can get yourself into a position to charge what YOU want to charge anyways. Just make sure that at the end of said movement, you're 1" away from your intended target. No biggy.

It sounds like you're reading the Rage USR backwards?

Anyway, if someone wouldn't mind, does the existence of a Blood Angels Contemptor mean that the regular can't take dual DCCWs or is the difference something else?

djhowitzer
01-10-2011, 10:43
i have to say i am sorry about the loss of ignoring invulnerable saves for zakynel. it was something tham made shem really special. as a xenos player i have to say that this is a real gift for loyalist - especially space marine - players.
i also have to say i feel sorry for papa gaap as well. as was he just sat there and didnt die. i dont want a shooting attack if the trade off is making him more killable. the fnp will help him some - as an eldar player my primary method of killing him was to engage i cc with warlocks. now it will take twice as many to do the number on him as before.

the one model i need to know about the most is the dreadclaw. do the rules make sense now? because as they stood before - and i had all 3 versions of the rules for it - they didnt. and that lack of sense made for some terrible arguments.

also, i am totally with vic about angarath. he now cannot field him against me as i will just take loads of vypers and jetbikes and let him kill one a turn while i systematically go after the rest of his army. rage fits the fluff, but it also makes him nigh on useless

mountaincycle661
01-10-2011, 11:07
[QUOTE=Sgt John Keel;5815738]It sounds like you're reading the Rage USR backwards?

QUOTE]

Am I? I might have it backwards. I thought it meant that at the beginning of your assault phase, you MUST charge if able to do so. Or is it during the MOVEMENT phase, you must move towards the closest enemy and charge it?

If thats the case, then yeah...hes pretty useless. All you'd have to do is feed him a stupid infantry unit once a turn and....well, ignore him other than that. Thats bull, man. :mad:

I still stand by the fact that FNP is useless on papa gaap unless hes got the full 10 wounds. Utter crap.

And im still not sure between the trade off for Zachy. Pros: always reroll to hit and wound. Awesome. Cons: you no longer ignore invo saves. Well, that REALLY sucks.

sidcom
01-10-2011, 11:15
Unfortunately, Rage applies to movement, shooting if you want to run and then to assault, so yes, it makes him pretty useless now unless you manage to deepstrike him in a middle of unis which are all worth assaulting..

Did they at least give him deepstrike option like Auro“Aeos“Kaeors or whatever he is called has, I hope? :)

at least they make nice models on a shelf now, I was really thinking about ordering Great Unclean One from FW next month, but if this new rules are true, no way I“m doing it, looks like they were selling too many of them

oh feth this :shifty:

djhowitzer
01-10-2011, 12:15
i agree with sidcom about the zakynel thing. the fact that she could rape my warlocks was a massive fear factor. now i can rely on saving 75% of all wounds again means a 666 point model will get handed its ass by a 350 point unit. and that doesnt seem right at all. fire dragons aside i just dont like that kind of imbalance

Mousemuffins
01-10-2011, 12:34
Just ordered mine. Thrilled to bits they've upgraded the Warp hunter. Did the Lucious Drop pod get a change? or just relegated to apocalypse only?

Tastyfish
01-10-2011, 17:17
Have the Knarloc riders changed? They were massively overpriced even for Tau before, but I do love the models.

Sgt John Keel
01-10-2011, 20:27
Am I? I might have it backwards. I thought it meant that at the beginning of your assault phase, you MUST charge if able to do so. Or is it during the MOVEMENT phase, you must move towards the closest enemy and charge it


Unfortunately, Rage applies to movement, shooting if you want to run and then to assault, so yes, it makes him pretty useless now unless you manage to deepstrike him in a middle of unis which are all worth assaulting..

Moves, runs and consolidations must be made towards the closest enemy, not assaults.

Asher
01-10-2011, 20:33
My book is yet to arrive, so could anyone give me a quick rundown on the Blood Angels Contemptor? It would be much apprechiated.

Once the book is here, I'll gladly hand out some info as well.

mountaincycle661
02-10-2011, 04:55
So angratth is useless, papa gaap is easy to kill and zaraknyel is no longer scary.

Great job, Forgeworld

Mini77
02-10-2011, 06:01
My book is yet to arrive, so could anyone give me a quick rundown on the Blood Angels Contemptor? It would be much apprechiated.

Once the book is here, I'll gladly hand out some info as well.

Furioso Contemptor has pretty much the same options as the Codex counterpart including access to Blood Talons, Magna Grapples, Frag Cannon and the Red Thirst rule. It can take the Kheres Assault Cannon but not the carapace mounted Cyclone. Probably worth noting as well that its WS is one less than the Codex Furioso as well.

unheilig
02-10-2011, 06:16
Does anyone have the book yet? has anyone read it?

For a friend, I really need to find out anything I can on the tyranid stuff, and who knows how long it will take for my book to get here...

meanmachine
02-10-2011, 08:58
so zaraknyel cant ignore invulnerable saves anymore.

but what is this shooting attack she has gained.

Sgt John Keel
02-10-2011, 13:08
Furioso Contemptor has pretty much the same options as the Codex counterpart including access to Blood Talons, Magna Grapples, Frag Cannon and the Red Thirst rule. It can take the Kheres Assault Cannon but not the carapace mounted Cyclone. Probably worth noting as well that its WS is one less than the Codex Furioso as well.

Bah, I wanted a dual DCCW + Cyclone for my BA. :(

-Loki-
03-10-2011, 03:03
So there's been an answer as to why certain units from Forgeworld that need an update (for example, the Heirophant) aren't in this books. The answer literally is because those units are in the Apocalypse book. Someone over at BolS asked a FW staff about it. They're not allowed to update a unit and put it in a new book if GW have put it in a studio book. It's now GW's responsibility.

Sildani
03-10-2011, 03:43
So now GW "own" the Revenant and Nightwing...

Which they COULD make in plastic for a new Eldar Codex... and since they now have sway over the rules, they can put in the Codex. Stickmonkey mentioned that GW was looking at a Nightwing and a super-heavy for release. If said super-heavy is the Revenant... (bites fist)

Hiroku9
03-10-2011, 04:19
Not likely, it would likely be the Scorpion if it was anything. I think its interesting to note that the Phoenix flyers are not in the new IA:A, maybe that has something to due with future Eldar events.

eldargal
03-10-2011, 07:12
Yup, GW might have the rules for the Revenant in one of their books but that doesn't guarantee a plastic kit will be forthcoming. Though there were rumours of a plastic Eldar superheavy most of them pointed towards a Scorpion, there was just some speculation a Revenant could work as it would use less plastic.

metro_gnome
03-10-2011, 14:12
le sigh!

I was waiting for the answer to the nid question that has been asked like 5 times in this thread...
and I missed a good price on a malanthrope on ebay... hate to pay resin prices and get paper roolz...

le sigh!

LonelyPath
03-10-2011, 14:31
What Nid question? I just looked back in the thread and couldn't see one unless I missed it.

I must admit I am very fond of the Mortis Contemptor, I'll be needing to get one of those for my Dark Angels.

metro_gnome
03-10-2011, 16:54
What Nid question? I just looked back in the thread and couldn't see one unless I missed it.
How about 2 on page 4 alone...


So, can anyone give us a rundown of the Tyranid stuff? Specifically the Stone Crusher and Malanthrope?


Does anyone have the book yet? has anyone read it?

For a friend, I really need to find out anything I can on the tyranid stuff, and who knows how long it will take for my book to get here...

muggins
03-10-2011, 18:16
Yeah gnome I'm just waiting until my copy comes in the mail. Trying to get info about the tyranids in the book is like pulling teeth.

unheilig
03-10-2011, 20:15
Yeah gnome I'm just waiting until my copy comes in the mail. Trying to get info about the tyranids in the book is like pulling teeth.

I dont understand it, either. :(

Vegeta365
03-10-2011, 21:36
Not sure thats the best way to get a response from anyone with the book.

zekeul
04-10-2011, 00:21
How about 2 on page 4 alone...

From Bell of Lost Souls regarding the tyranid stats:

"-Harridan gets +2W, gets slight changes in the Brood transport rules and 'Hover' mode.
-Malanthrope is nerfed, gets Fleet & MTC, a devious Pref'd Enemy rule and has access to more weaps and biomorphs and now comes in brood of 1-3 as a HQ choice.
-Meiotic Spores movement isn't random now. Less spore mines upon detonation.
-S-C 'Fex gets +1T, has now fixed A3 but lower Ld. Regenerates and gets bonus vs vehs & buildings. "

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/09/forgeworld-imperial-armour-apoc-2nd-ed.html

Seth Partain
04-10-2011, 01:44
Anyone Know what has changed on the Phantom titan from the experimental rules to the New book. i had heard somethings about harder to hit in close combat and something about the spirit stones but i really couldn't understand what was going on.

Fawful
04-10-2011, 09:48
Quick related question, does anyone have anyone have information on when this will be available in regular GW stores? All the other books can be bought from the website (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440351a&rootCatGameStyle=books) or in store.

muggins
04-10-2011, 20:45
The Harridan is now a hover mode flyer and has 10 wounds!

Hovey
05-10-2011, 18:56
I have the book. Changes I noticed: Land Raider Achilles is +25 pts.

Dark Eldar Reapers Gun now penetrate on 5+, instead of 6+ (otherwise the same)

Dark Eldar Tantalus, think Land Raider for dark eldar. Higher armor then anything else they have, 12 12 10. And 12 Disintergrator shots per turn. 16 model capasity, 205 pts.

Dark Eldar Raven -100 pts. Its splinter cannon has 10x shots.

Fraggle
05-10-2011, 19:00
Would someone with the book mind telling me the difference for the SW contemptor?

In the blurred out pages it seems to have an awful lot of rules!

MajorWesJanson
05-10-2011, 19:28
Would someone with the book mind telling me the difference for the SW contemptor?

In the blurred out pages it seems to have an awful lot of rules!

Most those rules are wargear and Sagas it can take.

Like the DE stuff sounding.

Hmm. I was hoping for a gattling style or side by side siege mortar on the Dominus, not mounted in a line. Guess I will stick with the Praetor. Anyone else think the Praetor launcher would make a nice part for any scratch-build Lucius pattern Reaver titans?

Harridan rules boost is nice, given the size of the thing. Apoc really should take some of the caps off stats though. AV of 15 and 16 would really help boost the larger titans and war machines, S of 11-14 would help differentiate weapons and larger creatures, Wounds and Attacks of 11-20 would help with Gargantuan creatures.

t-tauri
05-10-2011, 22:31
A number of posts removed. Please do not post or link to complete statlines or scans of copyright material. Please post in accordance with the posting guidelines and do not avoid the swear filter.

Gir
05-10-2011, 23:28
How about 2 on page 4 alone...

Stonecrusher carnifex is pretty awesome. Has a boosted save & Assault grenades.

Malenthrope has completely changed. Lower stats, MUCH lower point cost. Heaps of USR, and when it's brood wipes and enemy unit, it passes out preferred enemy of that army to everything near by. It's also HQ.

Scythed Hierodule has the same stateline, but all it's attacks reroll to hit (as per scything talons)

Harriden got a wound and toughness boost, clarified flyer rules, and counts as have 2 sets of scything talons.

Russian Roulette
05-10-2011, 23:31
I know its a very small part of the book, but are the updated rules or sky talons and tauros squadrons big enough to justify me buying the book?

Gir
06-10-2011, 02:58
I know its a very small part of the book, but are the updated rules or sky talons and tauros squadrons big enough to justify me buying the book?

Not many changes here. Tauros are now a squad that can have models upgraded to the bigger one (Venator?)

jt.glass
06-10-2011, 09:38
I have the book. Changes I noticed: Land Raider Achilles is +25 pts.Again?

(characters for the character god)

metro_gnome
06-10-2011, 14:48
Hey Gir... Thanx...

Stonecrusher carnifex is pretty awesome. Has a boosted save & Assault grenades.
pretty nice... much more expensive? broods?

Malenthrope has completely changed. Lower stats, MUCH lower point cost. Heaps of USR, and when it's brood wipes and enemy unit, it passes out preferred enemy of that army to everything near by. It's also HQ.
Lower stats/price? Like Prime low or Zoey low?
Brood? they are purchased in HQ groups?
or are they maybe an IC instead of a MC? or a tyrant guard?

Scythed Hierodule has the same stateline, but all it's attacks reroll to hit (as per scything talons)
expected...

Harriden got a wound and toughness boost, clarified flyer rules, and counts as have 2 sets of scything talons.
nice to know... but way outta my range...

Thanx a bunch...

MajorWesJanson
06-10-2011, 16:56
Not many changes here. Tauros are now a squad that can have models upgraded to the bigger one (Venator?)

Ooh, nice. gives sort of a bikes/attack bike feel.

Russian Roulette
06-10-2011, 17:33
Its cool if you want to get more sweet models into one unit but in gameplay its kind of useless...unless your running multiasers and GL tauros combo maybe

kasrkinsquad
06-10-2011, 21:59
I just got the book today and the new rules for the wraithseer, hornet, and warp hunter are great. Granted I don't like that the deliverance spell gives feel no pain. Its useful for wraithguard but not so much for seers and lords.

I don't like the changes to the tomb stalker. Well just its war construct rule. They should have just left it for snipers and poisoned weapons only.

Gir
06-10-2011, 22:28
Hey Gir... Thanx...

pretty nice... much more expensive? broods?


It's more expensive, and I believe you can put a single one in any carnifex brood (don't have the book on me atm)



Lower stats/price? Like Prime low or Zoey low?
Brood? they are purchased in HQ groups?
or are they maybe an IC instead of a MC? or a tyrant guard?


HQ choice, 1-3, lost a point off most stats.

Am-heh
10-10-2011, 23:27
hum just to be sure .. This book as many FW book won't be translate in french .. one day?

'cause where i play some of us don't talk english as good as me ( and i'm not the best french english-speaker ^^ )

Baragash
11-10-2011, 10:01
the one model i need to know about the most is the dreadclaw. do the rules make sense now? because as they stood before - and i had all 3 versions of the rules for it - they didnt. and that lack of sense made for some terrible arguments.

Same cost, basic DS rules, moves as Skimmer in subsequent turns. Clarification for the clarification god ;)

jt.glass
11-10-2011, 10:27
I don't like the changes to the tomb stalker. Well just its war construct rule. They should have just left it for snipers and poisoned weapons only.Ooh, what changed?

meanmachine
11-10-2011, 10:45
Ooh, what changed?

anything that would on a certain dice role e.g anoisers, wraithcannons, witch blades will now only wound it on 6s

it used to be just poison and snipers

i want to get 3 of these now.

meanmachine
11-10-2011, 11:15
also with the new rules i would rate the 3 daemon lords (not tzeentch since his rules are in different book) in th following order from best to worse

ZARAKYNEL
SCABEIATHRAX
AN'GGRATH


ZARAKYNEL
LOST
doombolt & lash of submission (no longer psychic)
cant ignore invulnerable saves
is t7

GAINED
3++ save
I10
shooting attack with 36" str6 ap3 assault d6 (bs3)
always re-roll failed to hit and to wound rolls in combat
attacks cause instant death
+d3 attacks on charge and has assault grenades
all non fearless units in combat must take ld test at the start of combat, if failed the unit cant attack that turn

SCABEIATHRAX
LOST
now has 6 wounds
now moves 6"
no psychic powers

GAINED
feel no pain
toxic discharge is hellstorm template now
+d3 attacks on charge and has assault + defensive grenades
at the start of every turn all models except daemons or with MON must take toughness test or suffer a wound with no armour or cover save

AN'GGRATH
LOST
eveytime you roll a 6 to hit he gains another attack

GAINED
rage
moves 24"
+d6 attacks on the charge
any psychic power used on him will be nullified on 2+ (all gargantuam creatures are immune to psychic powers that dont have a Strength value anyway)

SCABEIATHRAX & ZARAKYNEL were hard to tally up
Scabeiathrax is tougher and his new toughness test rule is good but i put him 2nd because he moves slow and he has the same wounds as Zarakynel.
Zarakynel is faster and has a 3++ save. Also she is a better monster killer

AN'GGRATH is now at the bottom all due to him having rage, people can bait him with worthless little models.

I hope no one at warseer will be upset by me posting their rule changes, i just wanted all the daemon lovers to know that appart from an'ggrath the other daemons are still not bad. I actually think zarakynel got better

enygma7
11-10-2011, 13:35
Scythed Hierodule has the same stateline, but all it's attacks reroll to hit (as per scything talons)


Hmm, that all? I was kind of hoping they'd see a boost to their resilience or a drop in points value, I don't see how its equivilant to 2.5 trygons. Its fast, but the gargantuan creature rules make it melta gun fodder up close.

I don't actually own one, I've got the barbed hyrodule instead, but the changes to the scythed hyrodule are probably a good indicator for any future changes to the barbed version (which if what you say is right is probably just re-roll 1s to hit in CC).

djhowitzer
11-10-2011, 13:47
so a d-cannon only wounds a tomb stalker on a 6. that is just awful

jt.glass
11-10-2011, 13:58
Ooh, what changed?anything that would on a certain dice role e.g anoisers, wraithcannons, witch blades will now only wound it on 6s. It used to be just poison and snipersThat isn't a change. It may be a clarifications, but the experimental rules datasheet (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/t/tstalker.pdf) is still up and it says:


Sniper weapons, attacks with the Poisoned ability and the like, only wound the Tomb Stalker on a 6(emphasis mine).


jt.

Firecam
11-10-2011, 14:14
Does anyone mind going over what the wraithseer looks like in the book (Cost and abilities)?

Thanks!

kasrkinsquad
11-10-2011, 17:17
so a d-cannon only wounds a tomb stalker on a 6. that is just awful

It is bad but if you do wound it you also cause instant death. I want to buy 3 but I am not sure what to us.

andrewm9
11-10-2011, 21:58
I think the Harridan is just slightly short of invincible. How many Strength 8+ weapons have AA mounts? Basically it can fly around all game and shoot 16 times each turn with its str 10 ap 3 guns. The way flier rules work you need 6's to hit it each turn, wound it's high toughness, it has to fail it 4+ cover save or armor save. Hydra Flak Tanks are only Str 7 so they need 5's to wound. I would never drop to the ground with this sucker as it is amazing in the sky.

Inquisitor Kallus
11-10-2011, 22:15
unless you have your own fliers......

Ozendorph
11-10-2011, 22:20
I think the Harridan is just slightly short of invincible. How many Strength 8+ weapons have AA mounts? Basically it can fly around all game and shoot 16 times each turn with its str 10 ap 3 guns. The way flier rules work you need 6's to hit it each turn, wound it's high toughness, it has to fail it 4+ cover save or armor save. Hydra Flak Tanks are only Str 7 so they need 5's to wound. I would never drop to the ground with this sucker as it is amazing in the sky.

Yeah, I haven't seen the book yet (ordered but hasn't arrived), but it doesn't sound as though there's a practical way to kill this beast. I'm not sure if any Tau, Eldar, or Imperial aircraft have AA mounts on their 8+ str guns

mountaincycle661
11-10-2011, 22:41
Thanks for the breakdown on the gargantuan demons, MeanMachine! I was getting worried there for a moment but I figured there was some important information missing out. Thanks again for filling in the gaps.

Cheers!

Sildani
11-10-2011, 23:38
The Eldar Nightwing has AA mounted bright lances.

Ozendorph
11-10-2011, 23:49
Ah well there we go. Regardless of what you're playing, bring in about a dozen Nightwings. The Eldar are fickle...never know where they'll turn up ;)

Gir
12-10-2011, 00:09
Hmm, that all? I was kind of hoping they'd see a boost to their resilience or a drop in points value, I don't see how its equivilant to 2.5 trygons. Its fast, but the gargantuan creature rules make it melta gun fodder up close.

I don't actually own one, I've got the barbed hyrodule instead, but the changes to the scythed hyrodule are probably a good indicator for any future changes to the barbed version (which if what you say is right is probably just re-roll 1s to hit in CC).

7 base attacks that re-roll to hit is pretty awesome. It also has that awesome hellstorm template shot.

Sgt John Keel
12-10-2011, 00:13
The Eldar Nightwing has AA mounted bright lances.

If we get back to ground–based AA, we have Manticores with Sky Eagle rockets and the Prętor Armoured Assault Launcher.

And the Necron Pylon of course.

meanmachine
12-10-2011, 06:34
I think the Harridan is just slightly short of invincible. How many Strength 8+ weapons have AA mounts? Basically it can fly around all game and shoot 16 times each turn with its str 10 ap 3 guns. The way flier rules work you need 6's to hit it each turn, wound it's high toughness, it has to fail it 4+ cover save or armor save. Hydra Flak Tanks are only Str 7 so they need 5's to wound. I would never drop to the ground with this sucker as it is amazing in the sky.

the harridan cost 20 points less than 2 necron pylons

1 necron pylon can cuase up to 9 wounds on it in 1 shooting phase

the pylon just has to hit it with its destroyer AA weapon and it auto wounds

2 pylons should be a safe way to kill the beast

metro_gnome
12-10-2011, 13:50
7 base attacks that re-roll to hit is pretty awesome. It also has that awesome hellstorm template shot.
Yeah... but 600 points?

I've seen malanthropes listed as MCs AND having move through cover... what up wit dat???

still don't have my book... *grumble*...

jt.glass
12-10-2011, 15:23
I've seen malanthropes listed as MCs AND having move through cover... what up wit dat???I noticed that with the experimental Tomb Stalker (as part of Phase Tunnelling). Does it still have it twice in the book?


jt.

enygma7
12-10-2011, 17:54
7 base attacks that re-roll to hit is pretty awesome. It also has that awesome hellstorm template shot.

The template is nice, although I went for the barbed version because my nid army kills troops well enough whilst the barbed hierodule brings some decent ranged AT to the table.

The hierodules are OK offensively, I just think they're a little fragile for such a massive points cost. The barbed hierodule costs 200pts more than a super heavy and is only 50pts cheaper than a warhound... Doesn't matter too much though, I bought it because it was pretty, not because it was cheese :)

Ozendorph
12-10-2011, 18:14
Thing is though, you don't get "bio-cannon shaken", "knee caps damaged", and "Chain-Reaction" results when the heirodules lose wounds. They're also small enough to get cover saves here and there over the course of a game. It's subjective of course, but I've found the barbed heirodule to be worth its points (haven't played with Scythed)

Bonzai
12-10-2011, 21:08
I was seriously considering getting a Hierophant for my Nids, but now I am thinking about going with a Harridan instead. :evilgrin:

Man I really hope I get my book this week. I am really itching to see all these new units and changes for myself.

Ozendorph
12-10-2011, 21:14
Fought a Hierophant last month. It finally went down in the 5th turn, but not before taking a Reaver Titan, a Rune Priest, and about 15 Wolf Guard with it. That thing is disgustingly awesome.

Gir
13-10-2011, 00:29
The template is nice, although I went for the barbed version because my nid army kills troops well enough whilst the barbed hierodule brings some decent ranged AT to the table.

The hierodules are OK offensively, I just think they're a little fragile for such a massive points cost. The barbed hierodule costs 200pts more than a super heavy and is only 50pts cheaper than a warhound... Doesn't matter too much though, I bought it because it was pretty, not because it was cheese :)

Hierodules ruin superheavies in combat A Scythed Hierodule will take a warhound, no problem.

Ravenous
13-10-2011, 11:14
I just got my copy and I got to say I feel sorry for the blood angel players that bought the lucius pattern dread drop pods...

Bonzai
13-10-2011, 14:39
I just got my copy and I got to say I feel sorry for the blood angel players that bought the lucius pattern dread drop pods...

Uh oh... The only thing I can take from that statement is that they are no longer able to assualt out of them... but if thats the case, then what's the point of them?

Ravenous
13-10-2011, 16:02
Here's the changes:
-15 pts more
-takes a fast slot for marines, sw, da, bt (blood angels cannot take them unless its apoc)
-requires the dread to make a dangerous terrian test

Basically all those blood angel players that bought them are going to be mighty pissed.

Besides that the Tantalus is pretty cool, dedicated transport for the court and has 12 disintigrator shots, and a S7 + 2D6 armour pen against vehicles when it does a "fly by".

What I was really surprised over was that the Phantom has a constant 4++ and gets a 3++ any time it moves.

Getz
13-10-2011, 18:37
Basically all those blood angel players that bought them are going to be mighty pissed.

Well, they can cry me a river... the Lucius drop-pod/Furiouso Dreadnought combo was absolutely insane - to the extent that I had to ban Lucius drop pods from our latest club tournament (which otherwise allows FW stuff).

Bonzai
13-10-2011, 19:16
Here's the changes:
-15 pts more
-takes a fast slot for marines, sw, da, bt (blood angels cannot take them unless its apoc)
-requires the dread to make a dangerous terrian test

Basically all those blood angel players that bought them are going to be mighty pissed.

Thanks for the heads up. I may still get a few though... for my Ironclads in my Salamanders apoc list. :cheese:

Chrysis
14-10-2011, 00:53
the harridan cost 20 points less than 2 necron pylons

1 necron pylon can cuase up to 9 wounds on it in 1 shooting phase

the pylon just has to hit it with its destroyer AA weapon and it auto wounds

2 pylons should be a safe way to kill the beast

Unless the Pylon is heavy 9 it's not going to be inflicting 9 wounds. As I'm pretty sure the Pylon is Heavy 3 rather than Heavy 9 I'm equally sure it will only inflict 3 wounds at most.

Strength D causes Instant Death, and Gargantuan Creatures are immune to Instant Death so only suffer 1 wound. It's the weapons that don't cause Instant Death but instead "Remove from Play" or "Kill Outright" that inflict d3 wounds. When the Apocalypse rules were written, Force Weapons were "kill outright" rather than inflicting Instant Death, so that's why they were used as an example.

Ravenous
14-10-2011, 02:17
Well, they can cry me a river... the Lucius drop-pod/Furiouso Dreadnought combo was absolutely insane - to the extent that I had to ban Lucius drop pods from our latest club tournament (which otherwise allows FW stuff).

Should ban the hades breaching drill while youre at it, its half the dollar cost and just as gross if not more.

Gir
14-10-2011, 03:02
Unless the Pylon is heavy 9 it's not going to be inflicting 9 wounds. As I'm pretty sure the Pylon is Heavy 3 rather than Heavy 9 I'm equally sure it will only inflict 3 wounds at most.

Strength D causes Instant Death, and Gargantuan Creatures are immune to Instant Death so only suffer 1 wound. It's the weapons that don't cause Instant Death but instead "Remove from Play" or "Kill Outright" that inflict d3 wounds. When the Apocalypse rules were written, Force Weapons were "kill outright" rather than inflicting Instant Death, so that's why they were used as an example.

Most people play the D3 wound things. Seems kind of stupid to not shoot the most powerful weapons in the game at massive creature because a man portable laser can do just as much damage.

It also stops Gargantuans from being stupidly overpowered.

Getz
15-10-2011, 13:10
Should ban the hades breaching drill while youre at it, its half the dollar cost and just as gross if not more.

Perhaps, but I haven't ever seen anyone use one.

However, A Furioso Dreadnought being delivered directly into combat - where it can kill an entire squad in one go and is virtually immune to anything that can fight back at initiative - by a transport that basically ignores all the bad stuff that can happen when it deep strikes (and can arrive out of reserves on turn one without any kind of roll) is far worse in my opinion than a unit that can scatter normally, may not arrive until turn five, has a chance of missing entirely when it arrives and the unit that arrives with is made up of T3 guardsmen.

Hades drill is certainly good, but the lucius/furioso combo basically cannot be stopped from landing next to whatever target you opponent chooses on turn one and wiping it out. I've seen this done to even the toughest infantry (ten Plague Marines killed in a single turn, despite their defensive grenades, before the Champion got to swing with his Pfist. Over half a mob of thirty Orks killed in a single round of combat, then Fearlessness finishing them off) Furiosos with Blood Talons as stupidly killy as it is, letting them assault the enemy before they've even had a chance to shoot at them is obscene.

Commotionpotion
15-10-2011, 13:43
Damn straight re: Lucius Pods. Even when loaded with ordinary Dreads they're a monstrous pain in the backside. The main problem being that it's such a bone-headed no-brainer - there is simply no risk, no downside, to opting for drop pod deployment.



Most people play the D3 wound things. Seems kind of stupid to not shoot the most powerful weapons in the game at massive creature because a man portable laser can do just as much damage.

It also stops Gargantuans from being stupidly overpowered.

Amen to that...taking on a hierophant is next to impossible otherwise. Gargantuan Creatures make games a boring slog if you're the one fighting them, far more so than War Engines - you can't blow pieces off them to gradually reduce their effectiveness and you options against them up close are more limited (no grenades, for example). Boring games are not fun games.

enygma7
15-10-2011, 23:45
Erm, to be fair this is a problem with the hierophant, not gargantuan creatures. The hierophant is effectively a titan half again as powerful as a warhound (if its points reflect is worth), its hardly surprising if it dominates the games its in. Personally I don't think its a bad idea to field things bigger than a warhound/revenant anyway, regardless of game size as they simply become too dominating and the game becomes about them rather than them participating in a game. Besides which, the hierophant needs to be houseruled as it was writen with a 5+ save and this went (unintentionally) to a 3+ with the codex update.

I don't think anyone can argue the hierodules are too resilient. They are T8 trygons (aka 2 wraithlords), which isn't that tough for a 700pt creature (i.e. of comparable worth to a warhound which has multiple structure points and void shields). Certainly, introducing a house rule saying D weapons cause D3 wounds just makes them way too weak.

meanmachine
16-10-2011, 09:36
Erm, to be fair this is a problem with the hierophant, not gargantuan creatures. The hierophant is effectively a titan half again as powerful as a warhound (if its points reflect is worth), its hardly surprising if it dominates the games its in. Personally I don't think its a bad idea to field things bigger than a warhound/revenant anyway, regardless of game size as they simply become too dominating and the game becomes about them rather than them participating in a game. Besides which, the hierophant needs to be houseruled as it was writen with a 5+ save and this went (unintentionally) to a 3+ with the codex update.

I don't think anyone can argue the hierodules are too resilient. They are T8 trygons (aka 2 wraithlords), which isn't that tough for a 700pt creature (i.e. of comparable worth to a warhound which has multiple structure points and void shields). Certainly, introducing a house rule saying D weapons cause D3 wounds just makes them way too weak.

yes but take into account that the hierodule can charge up to 30" and most models in combat cant scratch it in combat since you must be str5 minimum

unheilig
16-10-2011, 09:54
Erm, to be fair this is a problem with the hierophant, not gargantuan creatures. The hierophant is effectively a titan half again as powerful as a warhound (if its points reflect is worth), its hardly surprising if it dominates the games its in. Personally I don't think its a bad idea to field things bigger than a warhound/revenant anyway, regardless of game size as they simply become too dominating and the game becomes about them rather than them participating in a game. Besides which, the hierophant needs to be houseruled as it was writen with a 5+ save and this went (unintentionally) to a 3+ with the codex update.

I don't think anyone can argue the hierodules are too resilient. They are T8 trygons (aka 2 wraithlords), which isn't that tough for a 700pt creature (i.e. of comparable worth to a warhound which has multiple structure points and void shields). Certainly, introducing a house rule saying D weapons cause D3 wounds just makes them way too weak.

I've never seen a hierodule last more than a turn as it is.

Bonzai
18-10-2011, 18:00
I just got my book yesterday. Over all I am mostly happy with whats in there. However....

Is it me, or has the Dreadclaw lost it's assault vehicle ability? The original version refferenced the Forge World drop pod rules, which treated it as an open top vehicle. It's entry on IA: 7 also helped clarify some what. Now it no longer has the drop pod rules. It comes in normally via deep strike, is no longer auto immobilized by terrain, and can re-roll deep strike mishaps. It no longer seems to allow it's occupants to assault, which then makes it worse than a normal drop pod for nearly double the points. Please tell me that I am missing something!

Vaktathi
18-10-2011, 19:52
Ordering my book tonight probably, didn't order the first one because of how awful and poorly done it was. Any changes to the Eldar vampire or Titan Holofields?

Firecam
01-11-2011, 16:33
Any changes to the Eldar Hornet and warp hunter?

Haywiregrenade
01-11-2011, 17:16
Hornet remained the same, Warp Hunter got buffed.

Firecam
01-11-2011, 19:05
I had heard that hornet got cheaper, bummer