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Oogie boogie boss
27-09-2011, 16:27
After looking on this site for a while in preparation for starting a Savage Orc army, i have seen a lot of comments about how rubbish Giants are, and how they're not worth the cost. Personally, i think that's rubbish. Sure, they don't have armour. Sure they only have T5 (let's face it, it's not THAT bad!), and sure there are Big Spiders with more attacks than they have legs.
But how many other monsters have the potential to literally jump on a unit until it's dead? Or turn a steam tank into spare parts? Or put a 400+pts Khornate Lord into an unmentionable area?
I think the time has come to stand up for the Big Fellas, and if you agree, please say so here!
And if you disagree, also say so here! :D

Lordy
27-09-2011, 16:29
They suck.

sninsch
27-09-2011, 16:33
Against opponents without lots of shooting they can shine. Giants are relativly easy to kill but can do a lot of damage, especially agains steam tanks or the sphinxes.

Malorian
27-09-2011, 16:51
They suck.

With the number of attacks you see in 8th their 6 wounds on toughness 5 (and no armor) just don't take that long to smash through.

Really the only way they work is to use them to support another block so they are on the end and don't take that many retuen attacks, but for that cost why not take a killy character that doesn't need to worry about cannons?

Oogie boogie boss
27-09-2011, 16:56
Ah, but they can have Warpaint. A 6+ ward save ain't much, but it's something. And it will take 2 cannon hits to kill one on average. And let's not forget the ability to automatically win a combat by 2.

The bearded one
27-09-2011, 17:01
giants are great. They're just easy to bring down. However especially against other monsters they can really shine when they suddenly take off half a dozen wounds, or just yell at them and win. Giants do not win combats on their own (though can be very entertaining if they die and crush the chaos warriors or whatever they were fighting anyway) but are a great support monster with several very valuable random attacks. Pendant dreadlord giving you trouble? A giant might just pick him up and put him in his pants, eat him, or throw him away. Or he might jump up and down on the chaos warriors you were tarpitting with your goblins.

Malorian
27-09-2011, 17:03
Ah, but they can have Warpaint. A 6+ ward save ain't much, but it's something. And it will take 2 cannon hits to kill one on average. And let's not forget the ability to automatically win a combat by 2.

Yes, one form of the giant can get a 6+ ward...

And the win combat by 2 is a joke in a game of steadfast. That action really only helps in combats where the opponent is slower than you so it really means they don't get to attack, but that would be a longshot going in.

Vepr
27-09-2011, 17:12
I think Ogre giants can now be buffed by the maw spells so that toughness could go up or even... regen. :)

Malorian
27-09-2011, 17:16
I think Ogre giants can now be buffed by the maw spells so that toughness could go up or even... regen. :)

Personally I would rather have another horde rank of ogres...

SkawtheFalconer
27-09-2011, 17:20
Yes, one form of the giant can get a 6+ ward...

And the win combat by 2 is a joke in a game of steadfast. That action really only helps in combats where the opponent is slower than you so it really means they don't get to attack, but that would be a longshot going in.

Absolutely. A giant runs into 5 guys standing in a row, yells and bawls... and they get steadfast, and don't run away. I love Giants, and I'd love them to be better than they are, but they could do with a points reduction.

Lowmans
27-09-2011, 17:24
They've ..... Um, a really nice model!

I think they're ok. In a beasts army they're the second best monster.

They're handy if you have a pants leadership army as they can semi-reliablyish threaten a flank without supporting leadership.

Generally though, there are probably better places to stick your points.

I do think that's a shame. It's also a shame they took them off the other armies as an option.

They were a lot better in 7th.

Vepr
27-09-2011, 17:27
Personally I would rather have another horde rank of ogres...

I don't disagree but I also don't think they are completely useless and some fun can be had with them if your gaming group is not overly competitive.

Leogun_91
27-09-2011, 17:34
They aren't bad they are just overcosted, a 30-40pts reduction would IMO be OK.

Jind_Singh
27-09-2011, 17:34
This is an easy one to resolve...

GIANTS ARE AWESOME AND AMAZING!!!!!

I win by two - end of story!!!

Lordy
27-09-2011, 17:37
My favorite moment from my last tournaments was when a Giant and a unit of 30 black orcs charged my Gor unit with LvL4 in.

Gors and Giant go at same time, he went first and rolled win combat by 2.

Gors got to fight and killed about 8 Black Orcs and 3 wounds on the Giant, and because the Black Orcs are I2 they didn't get to attack, thanks Giant!

Tarliyn
27-09-2011, 17:39
This is an easy one to resolve...

GIANTS ARE AWESOME AND AMAZING!!!!!

I win by two - end of story!!!

That was brilliant : )

Shimmergloom
27-09-2011, 17:39
Next turn you strike last and are cut down by weedy elf spearmen.

Morax
27-09-2011, 17:40
Giants are good at one thing, killing big things. That being said, they are great at killing big things. In a WoC army the mark of Slaanesh makes them workable with the addition of ASF, in an OnG army a shield of trolls can protect him from cannon balls and in a beastmen army....well beastmen have thier own problems. Giants have thier place but you have to use them appropriately.

The bearded one
27-09-2011, 17:42
This is an easy one to resolve...

GIANTS ARE AWESOME AND AMAZING!!!!!

I win by two - end of story!!!

* rolls double 6's *

Damnit, I'm running away :eek:




This weakness against steadfast can be exploited by running a giant as support for a huge unit of cheap stuff, like gnoblars or goblins, who on their own just go tarpit like they always do, but allow the giant to join in on a corner of the combat (also reducing the attacks possible against the giant) who will be ld10 stubborn as well, untill he manages to roll 'yell and brawl' and, with the help of his steadfast-cancelling lackeys, can force even the most powerful enemy unit that isn't stubborn of itself to take a breaktest at -2.

"Hello chosen of chaos, I'm yelling at you and I'm accompanied by 60 goblins (of which you killed 20 this round, but whatever), please take a test at ld6"

I'll agree with morax on the Slaaneshy giant, which is probably the most workable variant of them all and a good antimonster-monster.

Leogun_91
27-09-2011, 17:43
Next turn you strike last and are cut down by weedy elf spearmen.Followed by 8 dead elfs a panic test, another panic test, another one and half the elf army having fled.....this has actually happened to me, that giant won me the game. Giants have won me the games more times than they've felt like a burden and only lost me the game once (thanks to the vicious sphinx terrain deciding that the vampire dueling it really did deserve heroic killing blow and the luck needed to kick the giant on my orcs killing half of them)

Jind_Singh
27-09-2011, 17:52
There are many, many reasons I'll never leave home without a Giant packed in my figure case!

1) Stupidly gorgeous model - had a blast putting the Giant together!
2) Dirt cheap - a mere 200 pts for a six wound, T5 creature that causes terror!
3) Small base - yes the Spider is a great buy also (which is why they both make each and every list) but the giant is much easier to deploy and use in the game thanks to his smaller base
4) Even in death they serve...The amount of times I've seen a dead giant fall onto the enemy unit, smashing them to pieces, it's just to great! And happens enough that I just love it!
5) Monster Hunters - most big beauties out there have low initiative stats, Steam Tanks, Dragons, Hydras, etc, which makes Giants IDEAL for monster hunting! With some luck they can one-shot the nastiest creatures out there! Still remember, to this day, when a Giant decided to see what made a Steam Tank work - but thumping it with a club that did ELEVEN WOUNDS in one shot! Ever headbutted a Bloodthirster who then can't attack you next turn? I have!
6) Random nature of attacks - BY FAR this is the main contributing factor to why I can't help but take 1-2 giants in an army list! Sure there are times when you roll an utterly stupid and useless result:

- Yell and Bawl so you can't thunderstomp - and the enemy also hit you as they same ini or faster ini than you
- When you win a crucial combat to the point the enemy needs to roll snake eyes - but then your giant decides to yell and bawl - keeping them in the game!

But then there is the other side of the coin:

- Giant rear charged a horde unit of Chaos Warriors of Khorne with additional Hand weapons - and proceeded to jump up and own on them - even though the giant died he ended up falling on them, killing more, so by the end of combat the horde unit of 40 warriors was down to like 9 models - allowing my army to move in and wipe them out - grabbing my HUGE points!

- Critical combat, my few Black Orc surviors with BSB/Warboss were being destroyed by multiple enemy units - in a last ditch effort I sent in the Giant who yelled and bawled his way to victory - saving my previous unit from death and destruction!

- STORM OF MAGIC GAME (this is were Giants are the best): Stupid 2+ ward save on his Tzeentch wizard kept me out of the Fulcrum - until a Giant reached in and said:

"Dur, what dis ward save thingy then?"

and promptly stuffed him down his trousers! Instant kill on the Wizard and allowed me to win the game!


So in summary, while there will be MANY games in which a Giant has the impact of a dead duck, i.e. none, don't forget...

How many times have you had a unit/warmachine/hero that did NOTHING in a game? Either didn't get into combat or just died right away?

Answer? LOTS of times.....

So the fact that the Giant isn't always useful isn't a hindrance. Bu the fact that it has random attacks is also it's greatest strength as you can't 'dice manage' it - i.e. there is no statistical calculations that you can do with it, it's a true unknown - and when something is unknown it can't be planned for - the Giant truly is a wildcard in an army that is already a gamblers army!

So Giants all the way for me!

Lowmans
27-09-2011, 18:06
Jind, you are a Warboss amongst men!

WarmbloodedLizard
27-09-2011, 18:29
way too much of a glass cannon. If only they were T6 and had options for armor or other upgrades (depending on where they come from, or something like that)

Commodus Leitdorf
27-09-2011, 19:04
T6 would help alot...and a drop of maybe 50 points...

But damn are they fun! I would never NOT use them!

Malorian
27-09-2011, 19:07
I would take him if he could use his club to bat the cannon balls back at the opponent ;)

Sexiest_hero
27-09-2011, 19:19
Sigh, my old friend the Giant. How many times have you stuffed my Vampire lord into your pants. Oh yes, how often have you yelled at him, making him crumble, or tossed him in your belly, or into his unit of Bloodknights. Don't take Giants, Think about the poor vampire lords.

BorderKing
27-09-2011, 21:05
The main issue with the giant is that they fall over too much and have no save. However, the giant is the most characterful model in my army with the most interesting stories with it.

drear
27-09-2011, 21:12
the dislike of giants on warseer is because they lack competetiveness.
in a local meta they can be brutal.

for instance my local store and club use little to no cannons. so taking giants and other such big things is fine.
i brought a cannon and suddenly..they realise how squishy giants are

TheDarkDuke
27-09-2011, 21:32
I think they suck pretty bad. Ive face one a few times and i never really have a problem with them even with armies with a lack of shooting. that said this really isnt just a problem with giants but with ALOT of large monsters besides hydras/hpas and maybe the new ogre monsters (havent faced or played with em yet) there are just way to many ways to bring one down easily.

Urgat
27-09-2011, 21:51
Really the only way they work is to use them to support another block so they are on the end and don't take that many retuen attacks

And then they scream and you win by 2 instead of 18 :p
I'm astonished at the numbers of lords other people's giants have picked up and... My giant dares pick up a Bretonnian peasant, the Bretonnian peasant will poke at one finger. Hop, turn over, giant loses by one, two, her...three... her... fiveeeerr... a lot.
Sometimes I wonder if the people who use giants don't forget the second half of the pick up rule >>
I personnaly dislike my giants because they always roll the result that will screw up the combat (two examples above). My army is random enough, I don't need my heavy hitters to be even more random than the rest. A giant... 6 trolls? 6 trolls :p

Scammel
27-09-2011, 21:59
I love my Giant, to me there's something really appealing about something that is essentially just a massive human beating the snot out of horrying monsters, dinosaurs, undead statues and the likes. I've yet to try the new OK Giant, but with the Standardiser gone he could really help take down those nasty monsters.

Spiney Norman
27-09-2011, 22:09
Ah, but they can have Warpaint. A 6+ ward save ain't much, but it's something. And it will take 2 cannon hits to kill one on average. And let's not forget the ability to automatically win a combat by 2.

Sorry dude, but suggesting that warpaint for giants is a good buy does nothing for the credibility of your case.

I like giants, I field my giants often and I've found they are much more survivable since I started fielding an arachnarok as people tend to target that first with their big shooters and ignore the giant because he is slightly smaller.

There is no question that a giant is well worth his points if he gets into combat, the tricky part is getting him there.

In fact cannons are not the worst things facing a giant, there are ways around cannons like a troll quartet screen (4 trolls in 2x2 advancing in front of the giant), but small arms fire tends to be what gets them.

Andy p
27-09-2011, 22:18
Love em, love everything about them, once you've gone giant you never go back.....and in Warhammer Fantasy too.

Gorbad Ironclaw
27-09-2011, 22:36
Have Giants actually been a "good" buy? Only started in 4th but I always remember them as a potentially fun model, but not a terribly effective one. Too expensive, too fragile and too random to really be a good buy in terms of effectiveness, but if he appeals to your sense of humour it can make for some fun moments. Last time I faced a giant (quite a while ago) it was eventually killed by skellies beating it to death, after having made sure that the centre of my line held together by reducing a potentially troublesome lost combat from losing by quite a lot to losing by two.

Trustey
27-09-2011, 22:41
Good luck rolling that +6 warpaint save :D

Purefear
28-09-2011, 00:06
Anything capable of shoving a Chaos Lord down it's trousers is ok in my book.
And nutting a dragon.

They're just made of awesome, even when they die they kill stuff!

decker_cky
28-09-2011, 05:55
giant love

But Jind....how do the do against 20 ungors? ;)

I don't mind the 200 pt giants, but they really should be down around 175 pts. Chaos Giants are much too expensive.

I'm surprised the new books didn't write yell and bawl to affect steadfast. Would certainly make them much more useful.

Crovax20
28-09-2011, 08:10
I quite like my giant, people at the club and internetz say oh but they not so effective. And then my giant proceeds to pick up the beastmen general and toss him to a quick demise. Then my giant proceeds to jump up and down on a vampire general who thought it was save to hang back but didn't expect an awesome charge roll.

To be honest my giant has done pretty decent, because people think they are crap they usually underestimate the damage it can do. Yay for the internet indoctrinating people Giants are bad.

10_minute_pie
28-09-2011, 08:11
Ignoring steadfast with yell and bawl would be really awesome. Giants definitely need some sort of boost, as their rules haven't changed in 3 editions, but the game has. That's even before looking at the power creep of big things in the last several books. It says something to the survivability of large monster in today's warhammer when people look at the Stonetusk/Thuderhorn and say "only T6, with no Regen, that's squishy"

Oogie boogie boss
28-09-2011, 09:48
Malorian, i'm worried you've been abused by a Giant at some point in your life. As for the argument, to those who are saying a Giant is rubbish because it can't beat a ranked up unit on it's own, i would ask 'how many monsters CAN break a unit without support, particularly with the new stead fast rules?' Answer: not many. And those that can (maybe HPA, special characters on Dragons, etc.) cost a lot more than 200pts.
Okay, i agree that it should probably be T6 at least, and yes, it is vulnerable to cannons. But reasonably, only Empire and Dwarves will have cannons, so against a lot of armies (VC, Beastmen, WoC, Ogres, Bretonnians, other OnG, Lizardmen, TK, etc), they can be devastating.
and, again, so characterful and so much fun. And to be honest, i'd rather lose and have a laugh than win a boring game.
On another note, has anyone ever gotten their Giant into combat with another Giant?

ihavetoomuchminis
28-09-2011, 10:19
Malorian, i'm worried you've been abused by a Giant at some point in your life. As for the argument, to those who are saying a Giant is rubbish because it can't beat a ranked up unit on it's own, i would ask 'how many monsters CAN break a unit without support, particularly with the new stead fast rules?' Answer: not many. And those that can (maybe HPA, special characters on Dragons, etc.) cost a lot more than 200pts.
Okay, i agree that it should probably be T6 at least, and yes, it is vulnerable to cannons. But reasonably, only Empire and Dwarves will have cannons, so against a lot of armies (VC, Beastmen, WoC, Ogres, Bretonnians, other OnG, Lizardmen, TK, etc), they can be devastating.
and, again, so characterful and so much fun. And to be honest, i'd rather lose and have a laugh than win a boring game.
On another note, has anyone ever gotten their Giant into combat with another Giant?

How many monsters around the 200 point line can at least reliably win combat rounds against infantry units without getting easily killed by anything? Plenty of them. Not the giant.

Giant doesn't have problem with cannons. It has problems with anything S4 or more (and enough S3 too)

Shimmergloom
28-09-2011, 10:26
But reasonably, only Empire and Dwarves will have cannons


And ogres. And skaven, greenskin, and bret war machines along with dwarf and empire all can shoot laser guided shots at him with a myriad of machines that will kill him just as dead as a cannon ball.

And lizzies need none of those things, when a bunch of skinks will kill him dead, or DE crossbow bolts, or just flat out dying before he can do anything, because he's I3 and naked.

Leave your giants at home and take another mangler.

Oogie boogie boss
28-09-2011, 10:49
Ah, yeah, forgot about the new Ogre stuff. I'm really not a fan of that, but that's another discussion....
And the Skaven Cannon is as likely to blow up or be ST 2 as it is to kill the Giant.
As for the rest, even if they do kill the Giant, that's stuff that's not going to go into you're OnG (or Chaos, Beastmen, Ogres, etc), which means more stuff will hit their lines, which means you've got a better chance of winning the game.

ihavetoomuchminis
28-09-2011, 11:36
I prefer to invest 200 points in more models for that units, so i don't mind i they get killed.

Oogie boogie boss
28-09-2011, 11:54
Fair enough. Personally, i'm looking forward to the 'wow' factor when i put not 1 but 2 big, warpainted behemoths on the table. I've got a feeling my opponent may suddenly care less about my Boar Boys.....

Andy p
28-09-2011, 13:15
I'm astonished at the numbers of lords other people's giants have picked up and... My giant dares pick up a Bretonnian peasant, the Bretonnian peasant will poke at one finger. Hop, turn over, giant loses by one, two, her...three... her... fiveeeerr... a lot.
Sometimes I wonder if the people who use giants don't forget the second half of the pick up rule >>
:p

Yeah I love giants, but the 'pick up and...' attack has never been particularly successful, I have had ONE awesome moment when he did the obligatory 'stuff vampire lord down trousers' moment, but that's only ever happened once.

Okuto
28-09-2011, 13:33
They suck....they are expensive, squishy and not point porductive for what they do, you would get more out of a unit of trolls than a giant....

reddevil18
28-09-2011, 13:36
Out of all the giants id say the chaos one is the best bang for your buck, but even that isnt enough to make me field it even once.

charlarino
28-09-2011, 13:39
Just the other day, one picked up my Vampire lord and squished him dead.. we laughed and laughed our heads off.. well, I say we.. HE laughed and laughed.. I just stared dumbfounded at the table with absolutely nothing I could do..

Yeah they can make crappy rolls and yeah sometimes they can mess up your best laid plans or be shot out by turn 2. but that's part of the fun of playing a random dice rolling game..

Oogie boogie boss
28-09-2011, 14:01
Loving how close the poll is. Again, the positive experience of Giants all seem to be about them eliminating other monsters/characters. I'm guessing in most of these examples they more than made back their points?

Okuto
28-09-2011, 15:07
I think it's more of the giggles factor.....the whole point of taking a giant imo was the fact that its a giant and it does funny things, at least that's why I took two of them back in 6th edition.

Giggles are great and all but not when its getting killed insanely quick, i'd much quicker take that overpriced spider than the giant.

Deep deep down we all know giants suck but we just like the thought of the dumb lug stomping around and still take him, I know that's why I'm thinking when I bring mine out

CrystalSphere
28-09-2011, 17:23
The giant is a very good monster killer, the problem is that he is quite vulnerable so he is at his best agaisnt I2 or lower big monsters. He can either win the combat automatically (great agaisnt single monsters, because they canīt be steadfast), or cause a lot of wounds (average 7) which will kill the other big guy. He is worse agaisnt units as they will invariably get to attack him back and with his average toughness and no save he canīt brush off easily any other than S3 attacks. I would never take more than one, because as i said i see him as a monster hunter, and your enemy wonīt always bring the optimal targets for your giant, so two is more points wasted.

PS. I forgot, the giant also is awesome for killing warmachines, provided he arrives alive of course.

Oogie boogie boss
28-09-2011, 18:20
I would never take more than one, because as i said i see him as a monster hunter, and your enemy wonīt always bring the optimal targets for your giant, so two is more points wasted.

I disagree, i think two working in tandem would be awesome. Much more chance of both breaking a ranked unit and more likely to actually get in.

ivan55599
28-09-2011, 18:28
I have made 5 giants. I hope that I can use them someday, but I fear siege weapons yet. Time will tell.

Oogie boogie boss
28-09-2011, 18:50
Giant Army?

ivan55599
28-09-2011, 18:54
Giant Army?

Crazy idea! Giant army (marked of chaos) including basic-, slave-, chaos-, cygor-looking and norse giant would confuse enemy for 1 time :V

Oogie boogie boss
28-09-2011, 21:59
I like it. I really want to see a Giant vs Giant fight. Would be so cool.

Knarg
28-09-2011, 23:29
When I played my no-orc O&G army, and the table would groan under the weight of all those Goblins, a Giant was a welcome points sink. The fact that he had none of the usual ld problems that accompany Goblins was also nice. And the fact that he won more than a few games for me against my usual opponents (Empire, Skaven, and Dwarfs) was just icing on the cake.

So yes. Giants can be awesome. :)

Charistoph
29-09-2011, 06:26
I would never take more than one, because as i said i see him as a monster hunter, and your enemy wonīt always bring the optimal targets for your giant, so two is more points wasted.

I disagree, i think two working in tandem would be awesome. Much more chance of both breaking a ranked unit and more likely to actually get in.

I look at monsters in Fantasy like Vehicles in 40K. If you have room for one, make room for two, because one will always die to incoming fire.

That having been said, it is difficult to fit 2 in smaller games.

Oogie boogie boss
29-09-2011, 10:16
True, but in smaller games, there'll be less shooting coming at it, so less need of a second. Hopefully.

Pille
29-09-2011, 10:36
Giants are fun...

Gromkranock
29-09-2011, 11:18
My favorite moment from my last tournaments was when a Giant and a unit of 30 black orcs charged my Gor unit with LvL4 in.

Gors and Giant go at same time, he went first and rolled win combat by 2.

Gors got to fight and killed about 8 Black Orcs and 3 wounds on the Giant, and because the Black Orcs are I2 they didn't get to attack, thanks Giant!

I know it may go against the grain of the currently accepted interpretation of the way Yell and Bawl works BUT the Orc and Goblin book says.....

Page 61

Neither the Giant nor models in contact actually fight if they have not already done so this round.

Soooooooooooo unless the entire Blorc unit was in contact with the giant they should have hit back.

Unless in contact means all models in the current combat.

Oogie boogie boss
29-09-2011, 11:27
Oooooh....that's actually a good point. Is there an OnG FAQ for that?

Gromkranock
29-09-2011, 12:11
Just checked, nothing in the FAQ

Rosstifer
29-09-2011, 12:35
Mine does alright, but whenever I've used him against Empire, first cannon shot, 6 wounds, take it off. :(.

Oogie boogie boss
29-09-2011, 14:20
Yeah, the common consensus seems to be that cannons are the bane of Giants. I do agree with those who argue that Giants should be tougher, but i really don't think only being T5 makes them unplayable or not worth it. You just need to use them more carefully, support them in combat, and try and keep them out of sight of artillery. Or only ever play Bretonnians.

Okuto
29-09-2011, 14:28
if they let you armor a giant.....now that'd be interesting....still wouldn't save you against cannonballs but still it'd be a fun modelling project(as mine already wears armor)

It's not just cannons that are the bane of giants....he's only T5 which is..pretty poo for a "monster" esp for his point cost.

Oogie boogie boss
29-09-2011, 14:44
Giving him Regen would be the best answer. Then the T5 would matter less, and he'd be more appropriate for the points (though to be honest i still think 200pts for something that can Insta-Kill a 400pt+ Chaos Lord isn't bad).

Okuto
29-09-2011, 15:14
I didn't suggest "troll blood" for the giant simply because I think it'd be kind of a lazy solution to the problem.....if they brought back guess ranging the giant's survival would go up but then you'll alienate the new younger folk who play.

IMO the chaos giant should have that option as it kinda makes more sense with them, personally I really think giants need a missile attack.....it'd be fun if the giant could "pick and and throw random stuff" and roll a d6 to determine the strength.....it'd be fun and dead fluffy, sure he already does it but I want it a bit more like gnoblers' "sharp stuff"

I can imagine the giant picking up a tree and chucking it or picking up a gobbo and chucking that

Charistoph
29-09-2011, 15:17
Chaos Giants used to have the option for a Scaly Skin save, then they removed all options from Beastmen Rare units.

gormaster
29-09-2011, 16:38
They suck!
They`re awesome!

They are one of the most fun units to play in the game. They can, rarely, be great in combat. I love them. I hate them.

The worst things: Poison- sixes always would-they don`t disrupt ranks
The best things: Big movement-cool model-random attacks.

Oogie boogie boss
29-09-2011, 16:57
Poison will be a major pain for my Giants (when i get them painted), but if the Skinks are close enough to throw Javelins, they're close enough to get squished!

ivan55599
29-09-2011, 17:33
I forgot: answer vs cannonballz are also Fleshy Ambudance and.....Khaos siege giant!!!

sssk
29-09-2011, 17:58
Poison will be a major pain for my Giants (when i get them painted), but if the Skinks are close enough to throw Javelins, they're close enough to get squished!

The only way a giant is going to squish a unit of skinks is if it falls on them in it's death. Unfortunately the falling giant template is significantly shorter than the range of a blowpipe.

I find it's not just cannons and poison which kill giants. Any kind of strength 4 shooting causes them problems too.

They can just about survive a small amount of strength 3 shooting, but that's about it. If you can pull some kind of miracle off and get them into combat with strength 3, 1 attack models (eg empire swordsmen) without being shot on the way there, they can do alright. I suppose there's scope to buff them massively with spells, though I don't know what would be good options off hand.

On a side note (because it was mentioned earlier), he who pays 20 points for a 6+ ward save is not thinking the whole thing through. On average you're giving the giant an extra wound (essentially, and not taking into account multi wound weapons, which make it even more useless), but the wounds are going to fall off it fast enough that 1 wound isn't going to change much.

I guess the people who pay for the 6+ ward are the type of people who buy the "talisman of (a distinct lack of) protection", which in my eyes is the worst item in the game. It doesn't even have a vaguely novelty effect

Okuto
29-09-2011, 22:47
It just makes them feel better...

dimetri1
30-09-2011, 02:37
I personally think Giants are worthless. An expensive distraction. In a competitive game he will be removed from the game by turn two. On the other hand if I am playing in a fun game with a fun opponent I will let his giant hit whatever unit he wants. What is the fun in paying for a giant if he can't do his random thing.

Malorian
30-09-2011, 02:47
I personally think Giants are worthless. An expensive distraction. In a competitive game he will be removed from the game by turn two. On the other hand if I am playing in a fun game with a fun opponent I will let his giant hit whatever unit he wants. What is the fun in paying for a giant if he can't do his random thing.

He still falls down in a random direction...


"Hurray I distracted my opponent with my 200 point giant so that his cannon won't shoot my cheap as chips orcs! Too bad he fell on the orcs though..."

Okuto
30-09-2011, 05:14
Esp since you could got some trolls with tose points you wasted on the giant which soak up damage a lot better than a giant

Urgat
30-09-2011, 06:23
He still falls down in a random direction...


"Hurray I distracted my opponent with my 200 point giant so that his cannon won't shoot my cheap as chips orcs! Too bad he fell on the orcs though..."

Hey, don't steal my lines!


Esp since you could got some trolls with tose points you wasted on the giant which soak up damage a lot better than a giant

Infinitely better. People might claim the giant is more mobile and so on, and it is true, but at the end of the day, giants are supposed to be heavy hitters, and in a game, what has more chance to "hit heavy"? 200 pts of giant, or 200 points of trolls?

sulla
30-09-2011, 06:34
Make them about 150pts and I'd be tempted. Otherwise...forget it.

Oogie boogie boss
30-09-2011, 09:53
Imagine for a second that you're NOT playing a shooty heavy opponent (there are some out there), i.e WoC, Bretonnians, VC, etc. Then the Giant is amazing. And, though i've mentioned this before i think it bears repeating, the Giants are FUN. :p

Urgat
30-09-2011, 10:22
I happen to play mostly WoC and Brets. They both paste the giant in melee (and at range for brets). And there's nothing fun about the same scenario repeating itself for years, when you really don't have to endure it anyway >>.

sssk
30-09-2011, 12:50
as I said earlier, the only way a giant can reliably (and I use reliable in the loosest possible sense of the word) be used, is if you're against an army which has little to no shooting, and contains mostly toughness and strength 3 (or less) models...with 1 attack each... and no spears.

Getting shot is not the problem, it's simply having toughness 5 and no armour which means they get hurt a lot, quickly, regardless of the source of the pain.

I would love for giants to be the powerhouse they are in the stories, but the fact of the matter is that they just aren't.

Oogie boogie boss
30-09-2011, 15:28
I think you just have to be selective about what you throw them at. And seeing as they're one of the few things which can consistently operate outside the general's Ld bubble in an OnG army, you can be.

Lordy
30-09-2011, 15:35
I know it may go against the grain of the currently accepted interpretation of the way Yell and Bawl works BUT the Orc and Goblin book says.....

Page 61

Neither the Giant nor models in contact actually fight if they have not already done so this round.

Soooooooooooo unless the entire Blorc unit was in contact with the giant they should have hit back.

Unless in contact means all models in the current combat.

It's a good query but you missed part of the text that says "if both sides have a giant that yells and bawls the combat is a draw"

That to me would say if you're the same initiative you both still get to strike.

SunTzu
30-09-2011, 15:42
But how many other monsters have the potential to literally jump on a unit until it's dead?

How many other monsters have the potential to literally fall over?

Malorian
30-09-2011, 15:47
Getting shot is not the problem, it's simply having toughness 5 and no armour which means they get hurt a lot, quickly, regardless of the source of the pain.

Both parts are a problem.

Giants get owned by warmachines and then they get slaughtered in combat...

You really have to be careful to find a good matchup for them...

In fact your best bet is to stay on the flank in hopes that the enemy unit fails their terror test.

Oogie boogie boss
30-09-2011, 15:53
It's a good query but you missed part of the text that says "if both sides have a giant that yells and bawls the combat is a draw"

That to me would say if you're the same initiative you both still get to strike.

I agree. If two combatants are the same initiative, they should both fight simultaneously, thus both get to fight. The real question surrounding 'Yell and Bawl' is if the Giant is supported by lower initiative Orcs attacking at a different arc and thus not in contact with the Giant. Would they still get to attack?

Malorian
30-09-2011, 15:57
I agree. If two combatants are the same initiative, they should both fight simultaneously, thus both get to fight. The real question surrounding 'Yell and Bawl' is if the Giant is supported by lower initiative Orcs attacking at a different arc and thus not in contact with the Giant. Would they still get to attack?

No because the combat automatically ends.

CrystalSphere
30-09-2011, 18:34
See how a giant fares agaisnt a war machine: A 50% chance of killing it outright (average 7 wounds), A 33% chance of doing 1 wound (and having no attacks back in case of dwarf/orc crews), A 16% of winning the combat by 2.

The table agaisnt big things is semi-reliable and a lot better than the table agaisnt small things, which is just random things over and over. The best targets are warmachines (autofail initiative tests) and low initiative lone monsters (I2 or lower). You could try luck also with things like ogres, but there is a higher risk of the giant being killed by the retaliation.

The giant is not exactly the most versatile monster, but agaisnt the right targets he can do a lot of damage. If not he is also Ld10 stubborn so he can be used to hold a unit in place for a few turns, if you charge in the flank with the giant (otherwise he will killed very quickly).

TheDarkDuke
30-09-2011, 20:14
The best possible match up a giant can face are goblins/clan rats etc. but they are so cheap and can get a fair amount of attacks that even then the giant is outclassed. Honestly there really isnt much point to field a giant except for fun (which i have no problem doing) but they just dont seem to do enough to even justify if you want to be semi competitive.

Mind you giants arnt the only monsters that have major problems when it comes to finding an ideal target they just seem to be the one that gets the most attention.

Malorian
30-09-2011, 20:18
The best target for giants: other giants ;)

Sarevok
30-09-2011, 20:44
But how many other monsters have the potential to literally jump on a unit until it's dead?

All of them? (Thunderstomp)

I think Giant Special rules need to be streamlined, why are they so unique and special?

Yeah I know, they are "random" and "fun" but when no one takes giants because they aren't effective where's the fun in that?
People dont want to waste a rare and 200 points on lolrandum stuff.

Plenty of other monsters and stuff get special attacks but its done in a better way. e.g. Troll vomit, Necrosphinx.

Give giants 4 attacks plus one special. Remove Yell and Bawl (its stupid, especially against ITP) and Jump Up and Down (he can Thunderstomp now)

Purplenewt
30-09-2011, 21:11
I actually really like my giant. Yes I take him for fun but I figure why not since fun is the entire reason i play the game.
I think mabey some options would be nice especially for SoM games but as is works well too, especially if you play with a lot of terrain making positioning and protecting him/her a bit easier.

Gorbad Ironclaw
30-09-2011, 21:31
if they brought back guess ranging the giant's survival would go up


I don't think it would. Most people I've seen with just a little experience could be pretty spot on with guess range weapons anyway so I don't think it would really make much of a difference. And besides, as others have said, it's not just cannons and the like that slaughter giants. It's everything. They are just not very resilient at all.

Essentially a Giant is a gamblers choice. He probably won't do that well, but there are the odd games where he can be amazing.

OldMaster
30-09-2011, 21:36
Slaaneshi giants are so much fun.
The ASF is EXACTLY what the giant needs to have impact in the game.
Wish he had Swiftstride, though. His charge range is like only two inch further than that of the rest of my army.

m1s1n
30-09-2011, 23:35
For me, this has always been a game of personal preference. Maybe Giants aren't the most practical way to spend your points, but if you like them that's reason enough to field them. I believe that there are still people who play this game just to have a good time, not to win. If that means playing a half-naked guy with a major random element to him, so be it.

Personally, I find that anything big on the board is asking to be slapped by a cannonball, but that's just me.

Okuto
01-10-2011, 03:03
I really don't think it's fun for your giant to get killed before it even kills anything......you pay the pricetag for a giant in hopes it does funny random stuff...on most days things you want to stomp are gonna kill your giant before he even gets going....

russellmoo
01-10-2011, 03:16
I like them against elite cc armies they are good, but against hordes or shooting armies they just can't cut it-

Okuto
01-10-2011, 03:34
against elites? you might get one good roll off and then those elites are chewing on your giant's carcass....elites will kill a giant insanely quicker than a horde of rubbish

Gromkranock
01-10-2011, 03:47
It's a good query but you missed part of the text that says "if both sides have a giant that yells and bawls the combat is a draw"

That to me would say if you're the same initiative you both still get to strike.

Of course you both get to strike, and i didn't miss it, it was just irrelevant to my point. My point was that the Black Orcs, who are on a lower initiative then the giant, would still get to strike if they are not in contact with the giant. Well that is RAW anyway.

As to Mr Malorians point which was "No because the combat automatically ends." where does it say anything about that????? Just because you win by 2 irrespective of other combat resolution, i can't work out how that can be translated into the combat automatically ending.

Saying all this i know it is not how it is played mostly, just how it is worded.

Oogie boogie boss
02-10-2011, 10:07
I think this would be something you have to agree with your opponent before the game. It is worded to suggest that lower I models not in contact can still strike, but there's enough ambiguity, particularly in multiple combats, to cause doubt.

AlphariusOmegon20
03-10-2011, 16:34
Depends on which giant we're talking about.

The Chaos Giant? Clearly Awesome, because of it's marks.
Beastmen Giant? Somewhat Awesome because it's a better choice sometimes than a Ghorgon or Cygor. Being able to summon one out of thin air for free is a plus.
Orc and Goblin Giant? Meh, the Arachnorok is better. So is just about everything else in Orc rares, but it does have a place in the army.
Ogre Giant? Nope, the Thundertusk is clearly better in just about every respect. So is the Stonehorn. The Ironblaster and the Scraplauncher are better too.

Bonegrinder? Yeah, he's the king. Thunderstomps everything except the War Mammoth.

Oogie boogie boss
03-10-2011, 17:06
Man, the Ogres have really been given a monster bump, haven't they?

T9nv3
03-10-2011, 17:48
I don't know. I love to include them in low pts games when I'm playing my O&G army (which i never use competitively). I find that I'd rather go with a giant and about 6 trolls then an arachnorock and 3 trolls. I never expect much out of them, and usually bring one along for the sheer comedy value. With a little luck they can perform really well for their points....but luck has a huge impact on how well they perform.

If you are the kind of player who likes to hedge his bets on reliable units then Giants are just too much of a risk.....it's not like we have a way to make giants reliable...like we can with trolls when we keep them in range of the BSB and general to counter stupidity and low LD.

Reliability is really the main issue here. When giants work, they always surpass my expectations.....but I cant always count on them to do what I want. If they were much cheaper or tougher, I don't really think they would be any more attractive as a monster. If you had the option of choosing from a list of potential attacks (that only had a few random outcomes)...then I think they might be more useful.

Oogie boogie boss
10-10-2011, 11:17
Just like to note that Giants seem to be more popular than unpopular. Give me a warm fuzzy feeling. :D

Chaos Undecided
10-10-2011, 14:37
Have to say my giant gave a good account for himself in the two games I had at the weekend with my new O&G versus OK in both games he successfully countered with Stonehorn from rampaging through my ranks in the first game his headbutt put it out of action allowing my boyz to take it down unmolested whilst in the second a healthy smack to the head with a club did for the Stonehorn in one hit (FAQ for O&G confirms its not a multiwound attack and therefore the Stonehorns special doesnt apply).

Admitedly these were fairly small games so there wasnt much in the way of range or magic to worry about but I think he's going to be a regular in my list for the time being.

ColDedNaz
10-10-2011, 14:57
Recently played a Dwarf army with my OGs and my 2 giants were shot to bits by the end of turn 2 without causing any damage whatsoever. They suck against shooty armies and have a great weakness to poison, in a previous game they were hounded by skinks.

I have had whole strings of games where giants have failed to earn their keep.

However...

In 1 game my giant took out a lord on a black dragon with a single thump with club. Another I hand of gorked two behind enemy lines where they completely ruined the opponents artillery and caused havok with rear charges.

To sum up. If you are playing to win, win, win at all costs don't do Giants but if you are playing for sheer enjoyment I think they are right up there with Fanatics and Pump Wagons in terms of brilliant lunacy.

Oh, and don't play dwarfs.

Oogie boogie boss
10-10-2011, 17:12
Seeing as the whole point of playing is to have fun, i'd say this makes them one of the most valuable units in the game. :D

Sh4d0w
11-10-2011, 08:12
Giants were just born to be shot, had a line up with 3 Orc n Goblin players last week. First game got squished by a cannon ball, next game squished by 2 cannon balls, the 3rd game i aimed my grudgethrower at his black orcs, scattered right on his giant, str 10 d6 wounds=6 wounds...dead giant, hahaha

Zoolander
11-10-2011, 09:41
I didn't agree with either of the poll choices, so I did not vote.

Giants are a LOT of fun, and one of my favorite units, just for the crazy wackiness they can bring. But they are slightly less dependable as other similarly costed models. So if you are going for pure effectiveness, most bang for your buck, do not take a giant. If you want to have a fun game where winning isn't crucial (i.e., a tournament), then take him. He can be loads of fun, and can do some serious damage in combat, plus he's stubborn. But you cannot rely on him to perform, and he's rather squishy.

Also, people have a tendency to compare him to monsters that cost quite a bit more, and then say the giant sucks. Yes, a 200 point giant does not compare to a nearly 300 pt thundertusk. Did you expect it to?

The bearded one
11-10-2011, 15:05
Also, people have a tendency to compare him to monsters that cost quite a bit more, and then say the giant sucks. Yes, a 200 point giant does not compare to a nearly 300 pt thundertusk. Did you expect it to?

We're used to hydra's and HPA's :p

Oogie boogie boss
12-10-2011, 10:04
Also, people have a tendency to compare him to monsters that cost quite a bit more, and then say the giant sucks. Yes, a 200 point giant does not compare to a nearly 300 pt thundertusk. Did you expect it to?

True enough. Even comparing it to the Arachnarok isn't really fair, as the Arachnarok is 90pts more expensive, even before it's upgraded. And also fulfills a different role within the army.
Don't get me wrong, it's awesome, but it's almost half again as expensive, and not nearly as fun.
Nice model though. :p

Gorbad Ironclaw
12-10-2011, 12:03
True enough. Even comparing it to the Arachnarok isn't really fair

Well, it could be. It really depends on what you want the Giant to do. If you are looking at getting your Giant to do something then comparing it to other choices that could do that too makes perfect sense. Refusing to compare it to something else just because they are different point values are a bit silly really as you just factor the different point value into the comparison too.

So you could easily compare the two, and then you could say that for a bit more points you get something that will be much more reliable and effective in doing the job you wanted it to. Or you could save some points and get something that might, or might not do the job you wanted (or something else entirely, or nothing at all).

If your just looking to put a big humanoid model on the table that will stumble around and (probably) do something random nothing beats the Giant though. He is the best model in Warhammer for that!

Incidental it's also the only model I've ever seen two friends get into such an argument over that they packed up their game so anecdotally you could also say that Giants ruin Warhammer. :D

Urgat
12-10-2011, 12:18
True enough. Even comparing it to the Arachnarok isn't really fair, as the Arachnarok is 90pts more expensive, even before it's upgraded. And also fulfills a different role within the army.

Dunno, when I field my giant, it's to smash stuff, and when I'll finally field my arachanrok, I believe I'll have it go and smash stuff :D

Oogie boogie boss
12-10-2011, 12:43
Lol, fair point, but i do feel that when people compare the Giant to various other monsters they always point out how much more reliable the other monsters are and gloss over the points difference. For the price of 2 Arachnaroks you can almost have 3 Giants. Personally, the 3 Giants option sounds better.

Memnos
12-10-2011, 13:11
Giants are... Decent.

In the new Meta, they're best used in support of large blocks of infantry, hitting on the flanks. Winning combat by 2 just isn't great with all the Steadfast Infantry out there unless you can remove Steadfast.

On the other hand, with proper support to threaten shooty armies, I suspect ganging them up with each other would be good.

3 of them smashing in to an enemy could end up with potentially 9d6 S6 attacks. That's enough to even wipe out a horde in a single swipe.

Oogie boogie boss
12-10-2011, 13:19
True enough. At 2,400pts+ 3 Giants is doable. One won't break a block infantry unit on it's own, but if you can use them in conjunction, or as supporting units for your infantry, they could be game winners.