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Petey
27-09-2011, 19:41
8th Ed High Elf book to come.

Maiden Guard. Discuss.


Where would they go, special or rare?
Would their stats be elite or super elite?
What special rules should they get?
How much should they cost?

Loopstah
27-09-2011, 19:58
Special.

Something between SM and WL but with spears and a 5+ regen.

Would be Core if you took the Everqueen as a Lord.

Petey
27-09-2011, 20:01
I wonder if she makes it into the game this time around...

Loopstah
27-09-2011, 20:02
Is she doesn't then I can't see Maiden Guard getting in either.

snottlebocket
27-09-2011, 20:24
I'd say 0-1 core available only if the everqueen is in the army.

Eddie Chaos
27-09-2011, 20:25
I wouldn't be surprised if they don't appear. The archers and spearmen need new figs first, not to mention the units in Isle of Blood need separate kits really.

But yeah special

WarlockLoki
27-09-2011, 20:26
Actually i don't think they will come as expected here:

You already do have 3 special infantry units. One agressive, one balanced, one defensiv. Another infantry special choice wouldn't make sense in my eyes.

What would make sense is another nice rare choice or two, probably white lions - actually the beasts themselve - like the ogres' sabretusk.

popisdead
27-09-2011, 21:28
Would be Core if you took the Everqueen as a Lord.

My vote is on Core. Cross between Eternal Guard and Sea Guard.

Longbows, Spears, WS 5, BS 5, 5+ save (LA and some sort of fighting style to get a 5+ save), Stubborn, LD 9.

5+ Ward on queen too.

eron12
27-09-2011, 21:42
I wouldn't expect to see the Everqueen or Maiden Guard return. If Maiden Guard do return, I would expect them to be more elite seaguard, with spears, bows, and slightly higher stats. Though it would be cool to have a HW and shield unit in the HEs that could use a parry save.

Petey
27-09-2011, 22:21
I wouldn't expect to see the Everqueen or Maiden Guard return. If Maiden Guard do return, I would expect them to be more elite seaguard, with spears, bows, and slightly higher stats. Though it would be cool to have a HW and shield unit in the HEs that could use a parry save.

LOL, why not? Everyone and their sister is getting a ton of units, new and old. I wouldn't be surprised if we get this blast from the past back. I do anticipate getting a rare pick dragon w/ dragonprince of caledor champion as a rare unit also, but that s another debate.

It would be interesting to see them as a new rare pick though, I could just see it now, they would have to justify being rare, so WS and BS 5, with a built in bonus to casting for the wizards they bodyguard, and because GW can't help but to make things over the top, their save would be a ward save instead of an armor save and they get to fight in all ranks when they charge.
Oh here s an idea, what if you let teh entire unit fight in close combat, regardless of ranks and basing, as the back ranks shoot into close combat over teh heads of their sisters who are fighting in the front rank.
They Are supposed to be super elite...

Gabacho Mk.II
27-09-2011, 22:27
Actually i don't think they will come as expected here:

You already do have 3 special infantry units. One agressive, one balanced, one defensiv. Another infantry special choice wouldn't make sense in my eyes.

What would make sense is another nice rare choice or two, probably white lions - actually the beasts themselve - like the ogres' sabretusk.




How about a Rare choice that resembles Malhandir (sp?) that Tryrion rides? [just a thought]

enyoss
27-09-2011, 23:03
LOL, why not?

I think there were some issues justifying, from a background perspective, why a peaceful ruler whose main responsibility is the regeneration, healing, and spiritual harmony of the realm, would regularly turn up on the battle field and blast stuff to smithereens.

The Maiden Guard, on the other hand, could quite feasibly be seen all over the realm acting as emissaries for the Everqueen. In fact, a Special Character based on her chief emissary and Champion (not Tyrion though) would be quite cool, as you could expect such a character to turn up in quite a few places giving a show of support from the Avelorn throne.

Petey
28-09-2011, 05:30
I think there were some issues justifying, from a background perspective, why a peaceful ruler whose main responsibility is the regeneration, healing, and spiritual harmony of the realm, would regularly turn up on the battle field and blast stuff to smithereens.

The Maiden Guard, on the other hand, could quite feasibly be seen all over the realm acting as emissaries for the Everqueen. In fact, a Special Character based on her chief emissary and Champion (not Tyrion though) would be quite cool, as you could expect such a character to turn up in quite a few places giving a show of support from the Avelorn throne.


Where is the like button for this post.

eldargal
28-09-2011, 05:36
They have an Everqueen model ready to go apparently, I don't see why Maiden Guard might not follow.

Meraklis
28-09-2011, 05:42
From the way 8th edition is progressing so far it seems that every new army gets a big monster and some smaller mounted beasts units:
OG: Arachnarok spider
TK: Warsphinx, Sepulcher Knights
OGK: Thundertask etc

so I guess the possibility is that we will see either an unridden dragon or something like White lions cavalry rather than an entirely new unit of infantry. For some reason every edition follows a trend and I am sure the 8th will be the same!

Scythe
28-09-2011, 06:08
I wouldn't be surprised if they don't appear. The archers and spearmen need new figs first, not to mention the units in Isle of Blood need separate kits really.

But yeah special

That's not the way GW is approaching plastic kits these days. The 8th edition armies didn't get any resculpts of plastic miniatures. They got plastic kits for new miniatures, and to replace metal ones. I'd expect the same for any new High Elves.


Actually i don't think they will come as expected here:

You already do have 3 special infantry units. One agressive, one balanced, one defensiv. Another infantry special choice wouldn't make sense in my eyes.

What would make sense is another nice rare choice or two, probably white lions - actually the beasts themselve - like the ogres' sabretusk.

Maiden Guard could be the flexible elite choice, fighting both in combat and at range. Kind of an upgraded elite Sea Guard unit. I'd say there's definitely a gap they can fill. Maybe not as much as some other units, but it is still there.


From the way 8th edition is progressing so far it seems that every new army gets a big monster and some smaller mounted beasts units:
OG: Arachnarok spider
TK: Warsphinx, Sepulcher Knights
OGK: Thundertask etc

so I guess the possibility is that we will see either an unridden dragon or something like White lions cavalry rather than an entirely new unit of infantry. For some reason every edition follows a trend and I am sure the 8th will be the same!

You conveniently forgot that Orcs got plastic savage orcs? And that Tomb Kings got plastic Tomb Guard?

Mr. Ultra
28-09-2011, 07:48
Also, the trend for every edition is usually broken after 4 or 5 books, as happened in 6th and 7th editions.

BooNL
28-09-2011, 08:09
They could be a 0-1 upgrade to Sea Guard, like Big Uns and Longbeards. Maybe in combination with some kind of special character.

snottlebocket
28-09-2011, 08:12
LOL, why not? Everyone and their sister is getting a ton of units, new and old. I wouldn't be surprised if we get this blast from the past back. I do anticipate getting a rare pick dragon w/ dragonprince of caledor champion as a rare unit also, but that s another debate.

It would be interesting to see them as a new rare pick though, I could just see it now, they would have to justify being rare, so WS and BS 5, with a built in bonus to casting for the wizards they bodyguard, and because GW can't help but to make things over the top, their save would be a ward save instead of an armor save and they get to fight in all ranks when they charge.
Oh here s an idea, what if you let teh entire unit fight in close combat, regardless of ranks and basing, as the back ranks shoot into close combat over teh heads of their sisters who are fighting in the front rank.
They Are supposed to be super elite...

Because it's a silly unit to have in the game anyway. Ruleswise they're just female lothern seaguard and fluff wise they're only around to protect the queen who usually doesn't go anywhere near battlefields.

It was a novelty unit released for high elves once. It doesn't seem to be worth the bother to make models for a unit of which there is ever only one and even then only fielded if the everqueen is fielded, who frankly shouldn't be fielded because she's not a frontline commander.

In short it's a unit that adds nothing and shouldn't be on the table in the first place.

Nocculum
28-09-2011, 08:18
They were removed because the Everqueen has no place, as a pacifist, on the battlefields of the world - they will not return her to the fold.

Leogun_91
28-09-2011, 08:39
Actually i don't think they will come as expected here:

You already do have 3 special infantry units. One agressive, one balanced, one defensiv. Another infantry special choice wouldn't make sense in my eyes.

What would make sense is another nice rare choice or two, probably white lions - actually the beasts themselve - like the ogres' sabretusk.One agressive, one balanced, one defensive, one ranged ranked, one ranged skirmish....I think they would fit in quite well as there is no ranked ranged elite.

eldargal
28-09-2011, 08:48
For the same reason the ydon't have Phoenix Guard in the army list, guarding the Phoeinx King and whatnot they have no place on the battlefield. Oh, wait.:p Fact is there is no reason the Maiden Guard couldn't follow the same principle, small units sent out to gain experience before being rotated back to guard the Everqueen.

As to the Everqueen herself, is it so totally implausible that she be a lore of life support character with litle to no offensive abilities? Heck they could even give her special spell-abilities rather than Lore of Life if they were concerned about Awakening and Dwellers for a pacifist.


Because it's a silly unit to have in the game anyway. Ruleswise they're just female lothern seaguard and fluff wise they're only around to protect the queen who usually doesn't go anywhere near battlefields.

It was a novelty unit released for high elves once. It doesn't seem to be worth the bother to make models for a unit of which there is ever only one and even then only fielded if the everqueen is fielded, who frankly shouldn't be fielded because she's not a frontline commander.

In short it's a unit that adds nothing and shouldn't be on the table in the first place.

Baragash
28-09-2011, 09:36
For the same reason the ydon't have Phoenix Guard in the army list, guarding the Phoeinx King and whatnot they have no place on the battlefield. Oh, wait.:p

White Lions guard the Phoenix King and are also a force in their own right.

Phoenix Guard guard the Shrine of Asuryan and were changed from just being a guarding force to joining HE armies by Caledor I - so neither is comparable.

Personally I'd like to see the MG as some sort of hybrid Sea Guard/Forest Spirit unit based on the way they were portrayed in the Time of Legends series.

stashman
28-09-2011, 10:14
Why struggle to keep something old alive when there is soo much new that can be in the next book.

I woild like to see:

Skirmish Chariot Units, easy to fix

Dragon as a monster, not just a mount

Baragash
28-09-2011, 10:25
Why struggle to keep something old alive when there is soo much new that can be in the next book.

Can't we have both? ;)

I'd also like to see (in terms of units only, not points/rules):
- Tironic Chariots become proper units like TK ones
- Dragon Riders as Rare (whether or not it's appropriate to move Dragon Mages there is a different issue, probably the magic user stays in Heroes)
- Phoenix as a new Rare
- Merwyrm as Rare
- Imrik back
- Swordmaster Captain SC

I would suspect that War Lions and/or War Lion cavalry are up for consideration

eldargal
28-09-2011, 10:32
Of course they are comparable, Phoenix Guard went from purely guard duty to being present in High Elf armies. All it takes is a new line in the next HE book saying the Everqueen wishes to take a more active role in protecting the world from Chaos and is is done. Not to mention we already know she leaves Ulthuan herself sometimes.


White Lions guard the Phoenix King and are also a force in their own right.

Phoenix Guard guard the Shrine of Asuryan and were changed from just being a guarding force to joining HE armies by Caledor I - so neither is comparable.

Personally I'd like to see the MG as some sort of hybrid Sea Guard/Forest Spirit unit based on the way they were portrayed in the Time of Legends series.

the Goat
28-09-2011, 11:30
Just use Maiden Guard models to represent a unit of Sea guard and you are good to go. There is no reason to give them their own army list entry. They are just not that different from Sea Guard.

High Elf stat line? Check!
Armed with spear and bow? Check!
Fight as a ranked up unit? Check!


They could be a 0-1 upgrade to Sea Guard, like Big Uns and Longbeards. Maybe in combination with some kind of special character.

This could be okay. 0-1 upgrade for Sea Guard that gives the unit a 5+ ward save and maybe the option to take a magic banner.

Loopstah
28-09-2011, 11:46
Perhaps they could build on the Everqueens BRB fluff by having her take a Moonblood roll before the battle.

Moonblood:
1-2: Not that time of the century. The Everqueen feels fine and spends the battle dancing amongst flowers and butterflies. No effect.

3-4: Pre-Moonblood Tension. The Everqueen screams and rants at her followers with little provocation and occasionally throws things at them such as stones, plates, rabbits or swords. All HE units within 24" are Immune to Psychology as they are more scared of the Everqueen than the enemy.

5-6: Magical Moonblood Mania. The Everqueen allows her magical life energy to flow out of her body repulsing Morrslieb and all creatures of darkness. All forces of Destruction units within 12" of the Everqueen at the start of the turn take 3D6 Str 4 hits due to the magical aura she emits.

cool-kid-on-the-block
28-09-2011, 11:47
GW will just change the background so that the everqueen and her guards turn up on battlefields to help. dun.

also the trend of rare block units is long gone so i would go for probably the strongest core choice(not broken, but most expensive in pts and most capable).

Scythe
28-09-2011, 12:45
Just use Maiden Guard models to represent a unit of Sea guard and you are good to go. There is no reason to give them their own army list entry. They are just not that different from Sea Guard.

High Elf stat line? Check!
Armed with spear and bow? Check!
Fight as a ranked up unit? Check!


Around the time maiden guard were in the army book, a unit like phoenix guard wasn't much different from a high elf with a halberd either. That they didn't had special rules back then does not prevent them from acquiring them like phoenix guard did. Anyway, maiden guard did have WS/BS5 back then, did they?

ghost21
28-09-2011, 12:53
I wouldn't be surprised if they don't appear. The archers and spearmen need new figs first, not to mention the units in Isle of Blood need separate kits really.

But yeah special

id be surprised if they DIDN'T... esp as there is a new everqueen model

Elithis Lives
28-09-2011, 13:03
Just use Maiden Guard models to represent a unit of Sea guard and you are good to go. There is no reason to give them their own army list entry. They are just not that different from Sea Guard.

High Elf stat line? Check!
Armed with spear and bow? Check!
Fight as a ranked up unit? Check!



I was going to state this, ninja'd. People complain about unit's which don't make sense or are overpowered. It is my opinion, that, if the Maiden Guard did once more rear their heads in the Warhammer Armylist, they would be one or the other or both.

Therefore, just use them as your seaguard. No new rules needed!

Baragash
28-09-2011, 13:50
GW aren't going to release new MG models just to use as an alternative to SG, and MG models are expensive and the competition to get hold of them is quite high.

So yes, new rules needed. ;)

theJ
28-09-2011, 15:11
Maiden Guard, in terms of fluff, consist of the most martially gifted females on Ulthuan.

This does not translate to "standard elf stats". If anything, I'd make them fully as potent as Swordmasters, if perhaps with a broader focus.

We had some pretty nifty rules going in the "What could be added to High Elves for 8thEd" thread. I'd recommend a read.

Pavisel
28-09-2011, 15:20
Wow. How many of you play high elves again? I would gladly field an elite unit of archers/spears, rare or speical. Acutally, preferably rare as there are too many special choices already. If you have never had BS5 archers with 30" longbows, let me tell you it is a HUGE difference from BS4 24" bows.

Plus, there is such serious demand for maiden guard on eBay, GW is assured that people would buy new models.

The high elves are one of the few armies that do not have a ruler present on the battlefield. Finubar will never show as he is neither Mage nor warrior. At least Alarielle is a powerful mage. She is also the spiritual leader of the elves, no reason she couldn't go to battle to bolster the morale of the troops in important fights and heal their wounds.

Bring back my everqueen!!

SunTzu
28-09-2011, 15:21
Perhaps they could build on the Everqueens BRB fluff by having her take a Moonblood roll before the battle.

I shouldn't have laughed at this, but I did.

Honestly... that bit of fluff in the BRB was just awful.

enyoss
28-09-2011, 16:54
Around the time maiden guard were in the army book, a unit like phoenix guard wasn't much different from a high elf with a halberd either. That they didn't had special rules back then does not prevent them from acquiring them like phoenix guard did. Anyway, maiden guard did have WS/BS5 back then, did they?

This was mainly why Phoenix Guard never appeared in army lists though. Even the tactics section stated "don't expect Phoenix Guard to be able to take on anything but the most mediocre of enemy troops" (the quote might not be exact, but the word mediocre was definitely in there!).

Although I think Maiden Guard could be justified from a background perspective, as I've already said, I don't they would get taken if they were in special unless they had a lot of extra benefits. I don't see people forgoing special choices for more seaguard at the moment, so I'm not sure why they would do it for Maiden Guard who would, even with lots of special rules, more or less do the same thing.

theJ
28-09-2011, 19:33
@enyoss:
um... because they're not Sea Guard? They might carry the same type of equipment, but their fluff is far from similiar.

Again, we had some really good stuff going in the other thread. It started with a 'reinterpretation' of their spears into halberds, combined and an increased movement value, and there was talk of a ward save.
I could also imagine furious charge, stubborn, some improved parry save... don't get stuck on the bloody equipment. A unit is far more than its equipment.

enyoss
28-09-2011, 20:14
Again though, why would the unit have furious charge? There isn't really any big gap in the High Elf list which needs filling, especially in the special choices. A unit with halberds and a ward save in the special section would just be a slight twist on Phoenix Guard. Creating new units with a swathe of new rules just for the sake of it just seems unnecessary, and makes it harder to balance the list.

The problem here is that any unit design you'd manage to come up with which does fill a gap in the list, assuming there is one to be filled, probably wouldn't fit the background for the Maiden Guard unit (even though that background is sparse). So you go to a lot of effort designing and redesigning a unit which will fit in the list just so you can use Maiden Guard models, and then the unit you come up with doesn't really fit their background anyway, making using the unit as Maiden Guard a bit pointless. It just seems like a lot of effort and design man-hours which I'd rather they put into coming up with an alternative to Speed of Asuryan and sorting out existing units (e.g. Shadow Warriors and Silverhelms).

In 5th edition, Maiden Guard were unbreakable with the Everqueen, which made them just worth taking as a bodyguard. That was the only niche they held, and one which is already filled in the current list.

Petey
28-09-2011, 21:20
@ enyoss
did the ogres really need 2 giant monsters for their hunters to mount, and a new cavalry option? I don't think many of us saw all that coming. The point is that new stuff will be showing up. Why not maiden guard.

If maiden guard shows up, what would it look like? And you know what, a lot of people on this thread bring up a great point, we have too many specials as HElves. So what would maiden guard look like as RARE?
Can you imagine what it would take in this era of crazy op units to get to be a rare infantry block. We re talking elite stats with a host of special rules and perhaps your pick of a number of the universal rules like w Maneaters.

ws5 bs5 s3 t3 i6 a2 ld9
spear light armor longbow
ASF, 5+ Ward save, MR2
Martial awesomeness pick one of the following; Dev. Charge, Ambushers, Multishot 2 w/longbow, flaming attacks, or strider
13pts a model
may take a banner of up to 50 points

and before you say it s over the top, I hand you exhibit a; The ogre codex

LOL

theJ
28-09-2011, 21:43
@Enyoss:
An army is about more than being balanced. It's also about fluff, style and fun.
Fluff dictates we have access to a really kickass unit of super-elite elf chicks, and a lot of us would like to actually use them. We could probably fish out some old models from ebay and use the rules for a fluffwise vastly inferior unit, but frankly, it's just not the same thing.
Using rules that do not fit a unit ruins the fun factor of said unit. It's already obvious we'll be getting new units - we do in every book - why can't we get what may well be the universally most wished for unit* in the whole of warhammer? What's wrong with that? Why would we create and entirely new unit from scratch when we've already got a really damn popular option just waiting to be added back in again?

*The contenders being bretonnian foot knights and high level necromancers, mostly.

Monodominant
28-09-2011, 22:02
The problem here is that any unit design you'd manage to come up with which does fill a gap in the list, assuming there is one to be filled, probably wouldn't fit the background for the Maiden Guard unit (even though that background is sparse). So you go to a lot of effort designing and redesigning a unit which will fit in the list just so you can use Maiden Guard models, and then the unit you come up with doesn't really fit their background anyway, making using the unit as Maiden Guard a bit pointless.

I am very impressed by this whole "its not like this in the fluff" stance that many are focusing on.

There is nothing EASIER for GW to change the fluff for a unit between codices. It can be done arbitrarily and with no explanation or they can even give a half-baked concept changing blurp...

-The pacifist Everqueen becomes witness to the death of guy X before her very eyes as Skaven that had been digging under the ancestral elven kingdom suddenly burst from the ground.

Distraught she decides to join the fray since the elves keep dwindling. She issues a mandate that allows her maiden guard to go where needed and protect those in peril.

Tadah! 15 second idea of why Maiden guard appears in any elven battlefield even if the queen is not there and also why the queen starts leading the troops from the front line!

Similarly an actual writter (as opposed to me) can give them a dozen good ideas to play around with whatever they want and make it "fit"... or perhaps not fit for those hardcore purist fluff based players out there but good enough for those that want to use their old models (or the new ones if they ever come)...

For me for example it would be cool if the ladies were something really nice and ended up in rare (0-2?) that could be made core or special perhaps IF you took the Everqueen.

The Low King
28-09-2011, 22:12
@ enyoss
did the ogres really need 2 giant monsters for their hunters to mount, and a new cavalry option? I don't think many of us saw all that coming. The point is that new stuff will be showing up. Why not maiden guard.

no but GW trend is releasing monsters.......therefore ogre monsters must be MASSIVE...

Plus they added an entire size level to the ogre army

Maiden guard.....another unit of elite elven infantry......



If maiden guard shows up, what would it look like? And you know what, a lot of people on this thread bring up a great point, we have too many specials as HElves. So what would maiden guard look like as RARE?
Can you imagine what it would take in this era of crazy op units to get to be a rare infantry block. We re talking elite stats with a host of special rules and perhaps your pick of a number of the universal rules like w Maneaters.

ws5 bs5 s3 t3 i6 a2 ld9
spear light armor longbow
ASF, 5+ Ward save, MR2
Martial awesomeness pick one of the following; Dev. Charge, Ambushers, Multishot 2 w/longbow, flaming attacks, or strider
13pts a model
may take a banner of up to 50 points

and before you say it s over the top, I hand you exhibit a; The ogre codex

LOL

Ogre codex is fine.

Those stats though.....

Unit of 20 (5x4) could:
-shoot 30 BS5 shots....
-hit with 30 rerollable attacks on the charge (that usually hit on 3s)

...for 13 points....



@Enyoss:
An army is about more than being balanced. It's also about fluff, style and fun.
Fluff dictates we have access to a really kickass unit of super-elite elf chicks, and a lot of us would like to actually use them. We could probably fish out some old models from ebay and use the rules for a fluffwise vastly inferior unit, but frankly, it's just not the same thing.
Using rules that do not fit a unit ruins the fun factor of said unit. It's already obvious we'll be getting new units - we do in every book - why can't we get what may well be the universally most wished for unit* in the whole of warhammer? What's wrong with that? Why would we create and entirely new unit from scratch when we've already got a really damn popular option just waiting to be added back in again?

*The contenders being bretonnian foot knights and high level necromancers, mostly.

its not even close mate, there are many other units that have more support.

Improving seaguard slightly would be fine.

Meraklis
29-09-2011, 15:28
You conveniently forgot that Orcs got plastic savage orcs? And that Tomb Kings got plastic Tomb Guard?

Yes but you fail to realise that these units existed in the previous editions as well. All GW did was to release them in plastic.
Fortunately in the case of the HE almost all of our units are plastic...

Petey
29-09-2011, 15:29
Ogre codex is fine.

Those stats though.....

Unit of 20 (5x4) could:
-shoot 30 BS5 shots....
-hit with 30 rerollable attacks on the charge (that usually hit on 3s)

...for 13 points....



Actually I agree that the Ogres are balanced (for 8th Edition), but this edition of the game is on a new power level than the last few. I was being a little facetious about my predictions for maiden guard, but really they aren't that bad. A unit of spearmen has 20 attacks if charged this edition, usually hitting on 3s and rerollable, that means that generally they will hit 18 times @9 points a model; and for this edition that s overpriced.
Ogre Maneaters are a mere 50 points a model, that being about 16 points a wound for all their goodies, ie huge stat line, cause fear, ogre charge, special abilities that are customizable, and great and varied weapon options.

My feeling is that we ll see all elves go down in point cost 20% with their 8th Ed codexes. So maybe I was a few points off, but I don't think I'm that far off. Ogres get lots of Str. and Tou., elves will get lots of A and WS/BS.

Scythe
30-09-2011, 05:36
Yes but you fail to realise that these units existed in the previous editions as well.

So did Maiden Guard?