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TheLaughingGod
28-09-2011, 00:04
Its about that time again. Especially after the rumors of a late 2012 release.

lets have some creative discussion about where you could see the Craftworlders going this time.

Tethylis
28-09-2011, 00:31
Would a tactica thread be to much to wish for?

Ozendorph
28-09-2011, 00:31
Thinking about the most current codices and the overarching design decisions..

1. Expansion of Harlequins. I'd love to see Solitare/Mimes as separate choice, maybe Great Harlequin (or whatever they choose to call him now) as HQ - making Troupes erm...Troops.

2. Flyers - Nightwing and Phoenix. I know this has been rumored, keeping fingers crossed.

3. Re-jigging of Aspect squads in the FOC. It may be as simple as including a Phoenix Lord to make their aspect troops, or some similar magic with the Avatar.

4. Swooping Hawks need a clear role they can fill effectively. Exarch gear to match.

5. I'm hoping 6th ed changes to sniper weapons, skimmers, and vehicle squadrons will improve some of the less stellar CWE choices.

6. More evidence of webway technology/mastery. Changes in deployment, use of portals as wargear, etc.

Shamana
28-09-2011, 00:49
Generally, craftworld eldar as I see them should be a balancing act between elite and frail units, heavy on offense and mobility. They shouldn't be quite as fragile as dark eldar are, but generally a bit more expensive.

- Harlequins: keep, and expand if possible. I'm not sure how a solitaire would work out (a non-IC model with T3 is instakill bait, unless having one or more of: a) veil of tears - like ability to protect from shooting, b) eternal warrior and c) insanely good save. Otherwise, it would simply be shot to death. However, a Troupe master HQ or more options for harlequin equipment or differentiation would be cool.

- Avatar: I'd appreciate a special buff for any nearby aspects. It's their GOD. The manifestation of the being they train for decades/centuries to emulate a small part of, walking shoulder to shoulder (well, ankle to shoulder) alongside them. Excuse me, is that not worth at least furious charge?

- Guardians: make them better, not cheaper. I want to see a unit worth every bit of its 8/9 points.

- Phoenix lords: just a bit of an invulnerable save (i.e. 5++) wouldn't hurt, would it? Also, it might be interesting if they make their aspect troop to allow for temple lists.

- Autarchs: give them more options for either leadership (auras, special abilities granted to joined squads or the entire army, etc) or personal butt-kicking. Both, if you don't ming paying a LOT.

- Aspects: see above, with exceptions for hawks, spears, and possibly reapers. These may need a slight buff (in a specific role) and a modest price increase. Seriously, 30+ points is a lot for a T3 3+ model, no matter how great the gun.

- Flyers: I'm not all that sold on it, but I wouldn't mind seeing the Phoenix come into play. The nightwing is an interceptor, but the phoenix is meant for ground support. Also, looks sexy.

- BS 4 for vehicles, either core or as an upgrade.

- Vyper in particular either becomes a multiwound pseudo-attack bike or gets a serious makeover so as not to be a more fragile, BS 3 Land Speeder without deep strike options. Ideally have the first option and a separate entry for the hornet from FW.

- Assault transport (as in, one CC aspects can assault from after moving) with at least 8 models of capacity. Either an upgrade to the Serpent or a separate model.

- Technology and psychic powers to play on the "ancient race with nearly unrivaled techno-sorcery, psychic might, yaddayadda" schtick.

- Rangers/pathfinders need to have a way to work with a force generally reliant on mobility. Perhaps being able to move and snipe?

- Seers in the elite slot would be nice. Upgrade for squad-level seers and HQ-level seers for a 2nd base attack would be nice too. Seriously, an Ethereal or a Primaris Psyker has 3 attacks base, but a farseer has one? Weird.

Ail-Shan
28-09-2011, 01:19
- Phoenix lords: just a bit of an invulnerable save (i.e. 5++) wouldn't hurt, would it? Also, it might be interesting if they make their aspect troop to allow for temple lists.

No matter how often this is suggested, I will be against it. It's a nice thing to have, but paying another 15 points for a 5+ save that you wont always need doesn't seem helpful (unless rumors of being able to use armor and invuln at the same time are true). I still vote that they can't be singled out if they're with a squad of their aspect, and give them some buffs to their abilities (WS9, I8, and some more exotic equipment....yea they're exaggerated, but they're pretty outclassed by a lot of other special characters right now it feels, ESPECIALLY with their cost).

A lot of changes will rely on the core rule changes though. I also would like webway stuffs (specifically for redeploying across the table quickly), as well as more psychic stuffs. Specifically, more offensive, buff and just overall extravagant psychic powers that feel like psychic powers. Right now, destructor just kind of feels like a heavy flamer, and embolden feels like a standard. Not that those powers have problems, they just don't really feel like powers.

And a bright lance that's superior to a las cannon. Please, it's supposed to be better, but worse in every way EXCEPT for having the lance rule (which is still worse than +1S against all but AV14 and 13).


Perhaps being able to move and snipe?

I'd go for increased chance of pinning or similar things (units being sniped count as in difficult terrain next turn). letting them move and snipe isn't too important because they can't really skirmish. They need good fire points to take advantage of long range: so if you can't speed yourself, slow the enemy, which is why I like the night spinner.


30+ points is a lot for a T3 3+ model, no matter how great the gun.

I agree. I love aspects, but short of fire dragons they aren't to exceptional in their roles, especially for the points you pay and their relative lack of flexibility (and fragility). Also agree on better guardians. Eldar should never be a horde army. Why they have a hordeish unit is baffling, especially since they're supposed to be technologically amazing. More options for the autarch and for exarchs would be nice. Autarchs are a bit behind both on killyness and on buffing (short of the reserve bonus). Give them some things along the lines of grand strategy, or something similar.

Carlosophy
28-09-2011, 08:50
- Buff the Avatar. This guy should be as hard as a Bloodthirster. S7, T7 and Eternal Warrior. A Furious Charge Aura to Aspects would improve synergy.

- LOADS more Psychic Powers. Farseers should make Grey Knights look like Underhive Wyrds by comparison. Eldrad should have a Mastery Level of 4.

- Phoenix Lords should all buff their chosen aspects but I don't think making them troops is a valid idea due to Fuegan and 6 squads of Fire Dragons spam. A whole page for each PL and a Warp Spider one would be great.

- Yarlen Fireblade, Yrrthilien Mournsong, Iyanna Arienal and Nuadhu as additional characters.

- BS4 Falcon

- 3A Wraithlord

- More options for the Autarch. The oldest non-robotic race in the game must have some techno relics lying around.

- Mini-Revenants would be cool

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-09-2011, 08:53
The absolute first thing an Eldar codex needs to fix are Guardians. They need to be something more than one-shot cannon fodder or weapon-platform escorts. Giving the Shuriken Catapult it's 24" range back would be a great start. Whatever you then keep it at assault 2 or Assault 1 doesn't really matter. It would also give Guardians something to actually do in the list(medium range fire support, as currently the only unit with weapons for that are Swooping Hawks!).

I also think that the Eldar codex should refocus on the core of the Eldar army, the Aspects. They are supposed to be the standing armed forces of Craftworlds. Not that you shouldn't be able to do Guardian based armies, just that it should shift more towards the default being Aspects (and not Dire Avengers hiding in a grav tank!).

Also, they need to make sure that the Aspects have distinct roles on the tabletop that they are actually good at and that you need/want on the table.

Shamana
28-09-2011, 10:04
No matter how often this is suggested, I will be against it. It's a nice thing to have, but paying another 15 points for a 5+ save that you wont always need doesn't seem helpful (unless rumors of being able to use armor and invuln at the same time are true). I still vote that they can't be singled out if they're with a squad of their aspect, and give them some buffs to their abilities (WS9, I8, and some more exotic equipment....yea they're exaggerated, but they're pretty outclassed by a lot of other special characters right now it feels, ESPECIALLY with their cost).

As it is, most are already overcosted. Considering their status and cost, a 5+ save (even apart from other upgrades) may as well be thrown as a freebie. I know GW thinks save upgrades are a big deal (unless it's storm shields on terminators, apparently), but on models already costing 200-ish points?

BTW, about Avy - I don't think it needs to be quite as tough as a bloodthirster, especially if it offers more in terms of support. However, Eternal Warrior is a must. It is supposed to be pretty similar to a Greater Daemon, except that it's a Warp entity possessing an iron (?) statue rather than forming a body of its own. If daemons get EW, so should the Avatar.

enygma7
28-09-2011, 10:12
A complete re-write of all weapons, equipment and powers please. The list itself is fine with a decent variety and selection, but the actual weaponry and equipment doesn't match up to the eldar's background.

In particular, I think the eldar's anti-tank capability needs a deep re-think and the shuriken catapult needs re-statting for the entire race, not just dire avengers.

Nazguire
28-09-2011, 10:29
You see, I only see the Guardians as doing exactly what they do now, which is holding the line and escorting weapons platforms. Maybe a slight price reduction, or increasing the shuriken catapult to 18 inches, but nothing much else please.

A reason to take all Aspect Warriors. Currently I'd only take Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers or Striking Scorpions. Howling Banshees struggle against the very thing they were designed to kill (Space Marines), Swooping Hawks are confused as to what they actually do (is it disruption, medium fire support, close assault, harrassment? Shining Spears are ridiculously expensive for doing...not much and Warp Spiders don't have much oomph to really call it a day. Dire Avengers are ok I suppose. Nothing to write home about.

Buff the Avatar to something actually intimidating. Currently I just smash Wolf Guard Terminators into him and call it a day. I don't know whether that means giving him abilities to buff other units (seems more Eldar-ish) or something similar.

Giving Phoenix Lords the ability to take their chosen Aspects as Troops makes logical sense.

The Autarch actually worthwhile as a close combat HQ. Right now he does...not much.

N3p3nth3
28-09-2011, 10:49
Thinking about the most current codices and the overarching design decisions..

1. Expansion of Harlequins. I'd love to see Solitare/Mimes as separate choice, maybe Great Harlequin (or whatever they choose to call him now) as HQ - making Troupes erm...Troops.

Pretty much this. Huge Harlie fan. I wouldn't mind an exodite squad or two to spice things up, either.

Also agree that there's a lot of need for a rethinking, the minor changes done in the past iterations have IMO only made the list more and more problematic.


Would a tactica thread be to much to wish for?
Nah, we only do the "browbeating you into playing by a fluff as imagined by the author, while masquerading as a tactica" threads. ;)

sidcom
28-09-2011, 11:22
what about going DE way and giving Eldar skimmers some jets that will allow them to deepstrike, or, even better, becoma a fliers for a turn

eldargal
28-09-2011, 12:02
I'd like to see Exarch abilities used to tailor Aspect roles to a greater extent, in the same way individual Shrines interpret the Aspect differently (see Path of the Warrior). For example, one Banshee exarch ability could give a re-roll to wound, another a 4+ dodge save. Appropriately costed you can have an agile, tarpit Banshee unit or a unit dedicated to chopping through armoured targets. Make it a one or the other arrangement with perhaps a couple of minor upgrades like War Shout or Acrobatic.

Give Guardian catapults a longer range.

Give Wave Serpents an assault ramp upgrade.

For the love of god buff their weapons. They are supposed to be more advanced than the Imperium yet their weapons have shorter ranges, lower strength and higher AP.

sidcom
28-09-2011, 12:22
assault ramps would be the most awesome upgrade ever

Nazguire
28-09-2011, 12:59
I'd like to see Exarch abilities used to tailor Aspect roles to a greater extent, in the same way individual Shrines interpret the Aspect differently (see Path of the Warrior). For example, one Banshee exarch ability could give a re-roll to wound, another a 4+ dodge save. Appropriately costed you can have an agile, tarpit Banshee unit or a unit dedicated to chopping through armoured targets. Make it a one or the other arrangement with perhaps a couple of minor upgrades like War Shout or Acrobatic.

Give Guardian catapults a longer range.

Give Wave Serpents an assault ramp upgrade.

For the love of god buff their weapons. They are supposed to be more advanced than the Imperium yet their weapons have shorter ranges, lower strength and higher AP.

Assault Ramps for Wave Serpents would indeed be the man and make much sense considering they are used to the most extent of throwing down Aspect Warriors. If the pondering Land Raider uses it, then the Wave Serpent should probably have it too. Keep it off the Falcon, as it would only encourage taking a Falcon over a Wave Serpent, and that would really boost Aspect Warriors in ways without giving them extra attacks or save boost etc.

I really don't want longer ranged catapults, other than the 18'' that Dire Avenger catapults get. I see Guardians as objective holders, and units that hold the Eldar lines whilst the Aspect Warriors spring forth.

eldargal
28-09-2011, 13:08
Well, something needs to be done to boost guardians, not just because they aren't greatly useful but because Craftworlds sending their civilians out to be slaughtered has never sat well with me. Useless in combat but give them weapons with such short ranges that anything they shoot at will be assaulting them soon? Really doesn't make much sense.

magath
28-09-2011, 13:15
I would like to see:

Guardian catapults bumped up to Dire Avenger level. Dire avenger catapults bumped up further still

Find a middle ground with the starcannon, lets give it back a bit of its intimidation value from 3rd ed codex.

Wraithbone seer grower people as an option, perhaps to be attached to guardian squads with the Bolster Defences rule.

Make the avatar on parallel with a blood thirster, preferred enemy against units with Mark of Slaanesh. Perhaps a Great avatar option as well?

New aspect. Slicing orbs or whatever. Something new would be awesome.

Allow relevant aspect warriors as troops if pheonix lord taken as HQ.

Allow specialisations for aspect squads. Let them do the same job, but different permientations of it. As an example, take fire dragons. All fire weapons at a tank, or could concentrate fire, get 1 shot with some sort of re-roll on armour value or somesuch (i dunno, roll 3D6, pick highest 2). Still anti-tank hunters, just can specialise in that role in a couple of different ways.

Swooping hawks: Let them do bombing runs.

Wraithlord seer should be in the codex. That would rock my face off.

Sildani
28-09-2011, 14:19
No to another Aspect, since most every role has been covered already. I can only think of a need for an infantry-based fast moving anti-tank and monstrous creature unit, but that's a role the Swooping Hawks could fill since they currently don't do much at all.

I'd like for Eldar psychics to once more be the most powerful in the game, perhaps Farseers could "override" psychic hoods with a successful Leadership check.

Allow Guardians to take a heavy weapon for every ten models in the squad, or a support weapon battery instead of heavy weapons.

Aspect squads buy powers like Acrobatic and Stalker for themselves, so if the Exarch gets killed her squad doesn't suddenly forget how to fight.

Vypers become 2-wound jetbikes, and upgrades to jetbike squads.

Falcons get an ability to move and fire all their guns. This way they can be a gunship AND a transport in the same turn, instead of one OR the other.

Swooping Hawks become Scourge-like; fast-moving carriers of heavy weapons. They need new models anyway...

Banshees get an invulnerable save in CC.

More later...

eldargal
28-09-2011, 14:25
Well, there are hundreds of Aspects so there has to be some overlap. I agree we probably don't need anymore in the codex though.

Dwarf Longbeard
28-09-2011, 15:26
A few quick thoughts I had

After playing a game against the Space wolves the other day it got me thinking how about having the Pheonix Lords available as upgrades to their squads in the way that Arjac is to wolf guard.
This would free up the HQ slots a little but also have some kind of restriction on them so theres not an army of aspect warriors with all the pheonix lords included.

As others have said giving the Guardian weapons a bit of extra range would make them a lot more useful, but keep their rule that their weapon platform makes a heavy weapon an assault weapon.
As a bit of a change to the force organisation howabout having the option that for each Guardian unit brought the player can also take a Support Weapon Battery without taking up any force slots; got this idea from the Imperial Guard codex.

Make the Falcon a dedicated transport for a Farseer and seer council, it would give it a bit more use without overshadowing the Wave Serpent

After looking at the Dark Eldar Disintigrator Cannon I've got a feeling that the Starcannon might go the same way, heavy 5 AP 2 heavy 3

Inquisitor Kallus
28-09-2011, 15:36
I'd like to see Exarch abilities used to tailor Aspect roles to a greater extent, in the same way individual Shrines interpret the Aspect differently (see Path of the Warrior). For example, one Banshee exarch ability could give a re-roll to wound, another a 4+ dodge save. Appropriately costed you can have an agile, tarpit Banshee unit or a unit dedicated to chopping through armoured targets. Make it a one or the other arrangement with perhaps a couple of minor upgrades like War Shout or Acrobatic.

Give Guardian catapults a longer range.

Give Wave Serpents an assault ramp upgrade.

For the love of god buff their weapons. They are supposed to be more advanced than the Imperium yet their weapons have shorter ranges, lower strength and higher AP.

Agree with most of this, although more advanced weapons does not necessarily mean they would have a gameplay role, i.e. weapons could carry more ammunition, be a lot lighter, less prone to jams etc. Though I am with you that their weapons could do with a boost, paticularly in todays 'scene'.

I would love to see a larger list of exarch powers come back that all Exarchs can choose from, and maybe a few that are limited to certain types. A lot of stuff mentioned on here is good.

eldargal
28-09-2011, 15:41
That is true, but the fact remains we are paying a whole lot more for an inferior product which is not supported by the background of the army. I mean looking at our own history general weapons tend to go down the path of higher rate of fire (muskets > rifles > machine guns). So if they wanted to keep Eldar weapons with the same stats and costs, up the rate of fire. Make bright lances heavy 2/3 or something, you get the idea.:)

Inquisitor Kallus
28-09-2011, 15:49
higher rate of fire?:p

yes I totally agree but it still doesn't preclude my point. It does indeed seem that armies are getting more for less points these days with every new Codex, soon we'll be playing 500 point Apocalypse games:D. Craaazy

Anyway, I like the idea of guardians getting some ground tech, as after all they are units that are garrisoned in the background (Swordwind). Some kind of defensive thing that can deter or indeed stop attackers from claiming buildings/objectives whilst protecting said guardians would be cool.

eldargal
28-09-2011, 15:56
Yes, higher rate of fire, edited lol.

Marzillius
28-09-2011, 16:00
I would like Guardians to be buffed. Give them 18" range (and then the Avengers 24" range) and then buff them defensively. Like with the shield from Dawn of War 2.

Another fun thing would be a change to Rangers: The Eldar player gets to allocate the wounds. This would really make them live up to their role as the best snipers in the galaxy.

Give Wave Serpents an Assault Transport upgrade.

Make pretty much all the weapons (except Scatter Lasers perhaps... they can stay as they are, as can the Eldar Missile Launcher) better. They are, as previously mentioned, supposed to be the most advanced weapons in the galaxy, just behind the Necrons of course.

MOAR FARSEER AND WARLOCK POWAHS!!1!!

That's all I can think of now...

Shamana
28-09-2011, 16:18
I really don't want longer ranged catapults, other than the 18'' that Dire Avenger catapults get. I see Guardians as objective holders, and units that hold the Eldar lines whilst the Aspect Warriors spring forth.

The thing is, guardians can't really do that very well. They have one medium/long range guns, and the rest of the squad has very short-range weapons and thus can't support the gun with fire. In fact, their gun is so short-range that they can only fire once before an enemy charges them (unless there's any intervening terrain). Guardians are in fact a pretty poor objective sitter - relatively expensive and fragile models (T3 5+ save, really?) with only one gun that can do anything beyond 12 inches. Said guns are generally overcosted for BS 3 models too - everything other than the shuriken cannon or scatter laser is overpriced. Yes, even the EML isn't really all that great - it's a missile launcher with a better frag option, but costs 20 points on BS 3 models.

Right now, their base guns are useful for short-range fire only, and guardians don't fare well in short-range firefights. They are also pretty unimpressive in melee, for their cost. Defender guardians are simply a schitzophrenic unit that isn't good at anything. Sorry, but 12-inch weapons generally only work on things that are either meant for melee or when the weapons themselves are extremely powerful, such as meltas, disrupt weapons or plasma guns.

I'd prefer if they were 6-12 with one platform for every 6 guardians or 1 special weapon (fusion gun, flamer, and some other weird gun) for every 4, and being able to choose between a 18-inch shuriken catapult, 3-shot lasblaster (it really needs a 3rd shot to be a competitive S3 weapon) or a cheaper pistol/CCW combo (grenades mandatory).

Nazguire
28-09-2011, 16:23
I'd like for Eldar psychics to once more be the most powerful in the game, perhaps Farseers could "override" psychic hoods with a successful Leadership check.

See, I don't want them to be the most powerful full stop, I want them to be the most powerful at bolstering units with buffs, or degrading enemy units subtly. For example, a power that makes the unit roll a D6 for their charge movement would really screw up a lot of enemy death stars. Or something that gives a 5+ Invulnerable save to a unit for that turn, or something similar. Just going all out with fireballs and lightning and overriding psychic hoods strikes me as too...human



Aspect squads buy powers like Acrobatic and Stalker for themselves, so if the Exarch gets killed her squad doesn't suddenly forget how to fight.
I think this is a given. Make sure it's costed appropriately though.



Vypers become 2-wound jetbikes, and upgrades to jetbike squads.


Nooo keep Vypers the way they are, or that means Venoms should be the same for Reaver Jetbike Squads.



Falcons get an ability to move and fire all their guns. This way they can be a gunship AND a transport in the same turn, instead of one OR the other.

Falcons should be a gunship first, transport second. The Wave Serpent is the transport of the army, not the Falcon. Players use the Falcon due the inherent superiority to the Wave Serpent. Fix the Wave Serpent with either points decrease and/or Assault Ramps. Moving and Firing all their weapons would make them an Uber-Ravager. Keep that DE only I think.




Swooping Hawks become Scourge-like; fast-moving carriers of heavy weapons. They need new models anyway...

Swooping Hawks Deep Strike Grenade Packs and associated weaponry is awesome. It needs some tweaks. Making them mobile Dark Reapers is not only impacting on Scourge territory, it's both unnecessary and flying in the face of 10+ year old rules and background tradition for the Eldar Aspects.



Banshees get an invulnerable save in CC.
Why?

Shamana
28-09-2011, 16:44
Why?

So banshees can be more useful against elite heavy infantry or MCs, who often ignore their armor, I suppose. I'm not 100% keen on it, but wouldn't mind seeing a 5++ save in melee (worse than the wych, and wyches are a lot cheaper), so they have some staying power against terminators, MCs, or the like.

Fluffwise, banshees are shock troops, their aspect role is to be the bringers of death. What they attack, must die (/whistles "For whom the bell tolls"). Scorpions are better at grinding down a horde enemy via more attacks and better armor, and attacking from surprise. Bansheerinas are all in for the killing.

BTW, both aspects aren't great at what they do. I hear a lot of talk about synergy, but if a unit is a specialist, it should be good in its field of focus for its points - especially for narrow specialists like the banshees. Synergy is 1+1 = 3, not 1+1+1=2. It's not news that banshees have a hard time with their chosen target (marines) without external support, and scorpions aren't necessarily uberpowerful in their field of expertise. Has anyone tried running tests on, say, scorpions with an exarch vs ork shoota boys with nob for the same points? As I see it, scorpions have a minor edge when assaulting, but will probably fold in the 2nd round if assaulted.

Inquisitor Kallus
28-09-2011, 17:16
I think banshees getting an inv save in cc is pretty in keeping with them. It needs to be lower than Wyches though as they wear more armour which would restrict their agility comparitively. Wyches get a 4++ in cc?

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-09-2011, 17:38
I see Guardians as objective holders, and units that hold the Eldar lines whilst the Aspect Warriors spring forth.

I'd tend to agree with that. However the current unit just doesn't do that at all. With a 12" range anything close enough for the Guardians to actually shoot at will just kill them, being pretty incompetent in combat and fragile. So if you want them to hold an objective someone else is likely to need to be on watch in case someone actually comes towards them. And with no practical stand-off distance they are unable to actually support the Aspect Warriors as they move forward.
(The Eldar army in general is pretty short of mid-ranged weaponry. Lots of short ranged and long ranged weapons, but few in the middle)

And then of course there is the stupidity of a dying race sending a citizen militia into battle in large horde style units armed with submachine guns and paper thin armour. If that's what passes for sensible strategic thinking you can see why the Eldars are dying.

But your absolutely right. Guardians should support the Aspect Warriors and should be used to hold objectives and reinforce the line. Now we just need some rules that will actually let them do that again.

Sarevok
28-09-2011, 18:02
So banshees can be more useful against elite heavy infantry or MCs, who often ignore their armor, I suppose. I'm not 100% keen on it, but wouldn't mind seeing a 5++ save in melee (worse than the wych, and wyches are a lot cheaper), so they have some staying power against terminators, MCs, or the like.


Wyches dont have power weapons or 4+ regular saves or banshee masks though.

Anyway aren't Scorpions supposed to be the resilient ones? Why do Banshees need more staying power? Isn't their whole thing that they kill you before you get a chance to strike?
So more hitting power would make sense.

althathir
28-09-2011, 18:13
Serpents - assault ramps

Aspects - Can purchase warlocks like how guardians do.
DA gain plasma grenades and the option to purchase haywire grenades
Hawks have anti-vehicle focus.

guardians - have storm guardians become black guardians (additional bs, and 4+ save) move guardian defenders to elites or heavy and make them a weapon team style unit.

Phoenix lords - become unit upgrades, gives space to expand special characters.

Wraithguard - become troops if they have a spirit seer (make it a more impactful upgrade).

No "unlock" characters.

Shamana
28-09-2011, 19:15
Wyches dont have power weapons or 4+ regular saves or banshee masks though.

And they do cost a fair bit less, on top of being troops.


Anyway aren't Scorpions supposed to be the resilient ones? Why do Banshees need more staying power? Isn't their whole thing that they kill you before you get a chance to strike?
So more hitting power would make sense.

Scorpions are already more resilient against the targets they need to take down (mass infantry, which shouldn't have armor-ignoring weapons) due to their 3+ armor save. And while banshees certainly do need more bite, a bit more survivability doesn't hurt, for those cases where they don't strike first or need to stay in battle for a while. 5++ isn't all that, especially as it's only in CC. Heavy bolters and the like will still trash any banshees they shoot at.

Note that as I said it's not my biggest issue with banshees and not even in the top 3 of things I'd like to see with them, but I can understand the idea, as it helps banshees excel against (a subset of) their chosen target. Banshees are expensive, fragile, basically useless outside of melee and mediocre at best vs hordes. If they are to be worth their points, they need to be awesome in what they are meant to do.

Basically, for anything in 4+ or better armor, to fight banshees in CC needs to be a lot worse than fighting khorne berserkers, death company, incubi, nobs or another broad specialist melee unit (of the same points, mind you). Narrow specialists must be better in what they do than broad specialists.

sidcom
28-09-2011, 19:21
Banshees should be to MEQ what Fire Dragons are to vehicles now - if they reach them, they are dead

this applies to other aspects and their roles too

strongbow
28-09-2011, 19:52
My Two Pence... (Based on what has already been written too.)

A greater variety of psychic powers for farseers, but maybe little change to warlocks. Would like to see more powers that buff friendly units but no need to take away existing offensive powers. Perhaps different types of farseer. Some with more aggressive powers and others designed to boost eldar units.

Availability of grenades to whichever squads need them.

Banshees... I don't think an invulnerable is necessary. Something like Furious Charge or something which means each hit they get allows them to attack again if the enemy fails an initiative test (on base initiative) or something like that.

Assault ramps and/or price decrease on wave serpents would be great.

Phoenix Lords as squad upgrades is a good idea, but I still think they could use a boost given some of the stuff to come out lately.

Avatar could do with eternal warriors at least, and some sort of inspiration effect on nearby aspect warriors/civilian units too would be good (I know he has something similar but some kind of extension of it would be good. He isn't summoned for nothing and this may effect the other eldar fighting - this is similar to below).

As for guardians... I think the shuriken catapult should go up to 18" for them and 24" for Dire Avengers. Give them relevant grenades. Max squad size at 12. I read a really good idea a while ago where someone said due to the extreme circumstances in which guardians are mobilised this should have an effect on how determined the rest of the army is in the battle. Not sure how it would pan out but sounds interesting! Warlock powers maybe to make them better on an objective or something like that maybe.

Vypers would be a good fit as an attack bike style thing and attachable to jetbike squadrons.

Warp Spiders are an aspect I never really understood. Don't understand the niche and don't know how to change it. Based on what some people say don't know if they do need changing. However a Phoenix Lord for them and Shining Spears is a gap that could do with filling.

Inquisitor Kallus
28-09-2011, 20:00
Im not really for the Phoenix Lords as squad upgrades. It downplays their status and means that they could not lead an army, which kind of sucks...

wolvychops
28-09-2011, 20:15
would love to see more Phoenix Lord fluff, but don't have a huge problem with the way they are handled now. Would really like more new characters. A cool timeline in the codex would be nice, and some more in depth color/ organization fluff.

as for rules, Guardians need the most attention. Either better BS or better stats on the Shurikat, and secondly There should be 2 full pages of Psychic powers, plane and simple, and not just Farseers and Warlocks gaining access to them.

Would love to see something similar to the pain chart, maybe in direct connection to the Avatar? or possibly some other psychic link fluff.

and final as for models, im happy whit everything that is out, just want them to Fill the gaps and new wraithgaurd.

grownassman
28-09-2011, 20:32
I'd like to see them remain a separate entity from dark eldar so no invul save for banshees in cc and no turning swooping hawks into scourges. However, I would love to see all the aspects buffed in their own way, especially swooping hawks, so that with or without support they can do their job cost efficiently. I would also like to see usable guardians preferably with a better stock gun. I'd also like to see more psychic powers and options for psychic units outside hq slots.

Sarevok
28-09-2011, 20:49
why not make phonix lords less powerful
because Incubi are better than Aspect Warriors why isnt Drazar better than Phoenix Lord?

Shamana
28-09-2011, 20:53
why not make phonix lords less powerful
because Incubi are better than Aspect Warriors why isnt Drazar better than Phoenix Lord?

Oh heck no. That's one of my pet peeves. Incubi are, essentially, aspect warriors, just focusing on another aspect of Khaine. They are more powerful because... uh... because. Yes, they are supposed to be more "evil" or maybe train more than regular aspects, but that's just a theory - no particular comparisons have been made. We have, afaik, one story in the old DE codex where they ambush and slaughter scorpions, but scorpions aren't meant to fight power armored foes. And while it is hinted incubi stay on their path longer, we don't have any knowledge of them having true exarchs - warriors devoted to their path to the point where they can think of nothing else, who put on an armor used by their predecessors and merge their spirit with the previous masters. The Klaivexes are described simply as champions, no more.

Anyway, on to the Phoenix Lords. One of my issues with the DE codex is how it has inflated the stats of DE HQs, and made them even more of murder machines than they were. See, phoenix lords are the greatest eldar warriors, bar none. They have lived for millenia and spent all that time fighting, even against insurmountable odds (as they are effectively immortal). See, archons may have lived long (or not) but they don't spend all that much time fighting - they need to administer their empires, fend off assassins and plots, and effectively live to enjoy power. Even Archites (or, as the codex likes to call them, Succubi) don't fight all that much and spend a lot of time in petty intrigues or backstabbing. Not so for phoenix lords. By their fluff, they live for war, life after life spent perfecting their path and striving to become a perfect representation of one of the aspects of the God of War. They should not be the equal of any other eldar - or for that matter, other mortal. Compared to them, archons should be petty crooks. Archites? Poseurs and "sports entertainers." Autarchs? Armchair strategists. Space Marine Commanders / Chaos lords? Genetically augmented freaks with no knowledge of what martial arts mean. Short of the Primarchs themselves, there should be precious little that should be able to stand against a Phoenix Lord and live to tell the tale.

It's enough the DE codex has archites with some higher stats, but to make phoenix lords weaker than they are strikes me as insulting. The likes of Asurmen, Karandhras or even Baharroth - and yes, certainly Drazhar should be more than a match for anything else in the DE codex. I'd be slightly more amenable to making Drazhar a bit stronger, but even that I'm not keen on.


I'd like to see them remain a separate entity from dark eldar so no invul save for banshees in cc and no turning swooping hawks into scourges.

Ok, just a second. Just because banshees get a better save in combat doesn't mean they become wyches, any more than Dark Eldar getting fleet of foot makes them craftworlders. There will likely be some similarities in the armies, but that doesn't mean they are the same. And while hawks shouldn't be scourges, scourges are fairly good at their job (mobile firepower) - and that's definitely something I want hawks to have. Right now they have weak mid-range attack, haywire and plasma grenades (assault equipment, on a frail and expensive unit that melts in CC or to rapid fire shooting) and can drop a template when they DS - so they are a unit that can do several things, but generally sucks at any of them.

If hawks can actually do some damage (and unless pinning and harassing get a significant overhaul in 6E, hawks need to do serious damage for their points), that doesn't mean they are like scourges. It means they aren't a waste of ink and paper in the codex.

Personally, I'd be interested in making them more harassment-oriented. They need more firepower for sure, and I hope the next codex recognizes that in giving the lasblaster a 3rd shot. However, that in itself is not enough. Here are some other things I'd like to see in the hawks:

- Their shots are also pinning: given their attacks come from an unexpected angle and rains death from above, it makes some sense. Have some of the exarch guns - i.e. sunrifle - impose a penalty to the enemy Ld save.

- Reducing cover saves due to the 3D maneuverability of the hawks. Against most foes, you know where the shot will come from - but swooping hawks are masters of maneuvering and know how to make a shot from an exposed angle.

- There should be gear or rules that allows the hawks to use some of their grenades at range. It might be grenade launcher weapons or a reaver-like rule that allows them to dash and bombard unit/s they fly over. If hawks aren't actually decent in combat, though, they should have a way to use grenades outside.

Overall, the hawks fight like their totem. At range, they buffet and blind an enemy with their wings, blinding and distracting them. Enemies they attack are pinned or fall back and are unable to contribute to the fight. They also have the option to do some damage from up close, as the hawk tears the prey apart with talons and beak.

Spiders are a somewhat different animal. They don't fly around - they appear and do damage. That's the major difference imo - hawks harass and disable, flying this way and that, but focus more on ranged disruption than damage (although that is a secondary option if you spend the points for upgrades). In general, however, hawks keep out of reach and work from a distance. Spiders work in close and focus on damage, with disruption (the web aspect of their totem) being a secondary concern. I'd be interested in options that allow them to assault from deepstrike (not like Surprise Assault does anything in 5th), using either weapons in melee (ideally some poisoned CC for the aspects to support the power blades on the exarch) or haywire grenades for vehicles. It may be something Dawn of War introduced, but haywire grenades do make some sense for an aspect based on spider.

Wildcard
28-09-2011, 20:55
Incubi are aspect warriors, Drazhar is a Phoenix lord they should be on par

Sildani
28-09-2011, 20:56
Because Drazhar IS Ahrha, the first Scorpion Phoenix Lord. Why should 10,000 year old warriors who've been embroiled in constant combat be worse than they are now?

Bold_or_Stupid
28-09-2011, 22:58
Incubi are aspect warriors, Drazhar is a Phoenix lord they should be on par

I wonder if Incubi are a hint at what aspect warriors will look like statwise.

Spell_of_Destruction
28-09-2011, 23:47
I realise that part of the reason Incubi got 2 attacks base was due to the fact that they removed the tormentor helm, but I feel that Aspect Warriors should also get 2 attacks base.

I'm happy for Incubi to keep their higher Weapon Skill.

Given some of the stuff that has come out recently (such as Death Cult Assassins) I don't think it's too difficult to justify Aspect Warriors to 2 attacks. Their stats are looking kinda weedy at the moment.

BDA
29-09-2011, 00:01
i would love them to fix the V-cannon support weapon maybe making it so that it is more dangerous to people in cover as things fall on them and crush them with the tremors. to expensive as it is and invective vs tanks.

as other have said more powers would rock and having a farseer being able to cast 2 powers a turn with the option of 3 like a gray knight lib seems right.
powers like which sight where you enable a nearby unit to see the souls of targes and thus reduce there cover save would be nice. and something like the old fear the dark power but vs one unit at a time.

also i would like to see aspect warriors have skills they can have as well as exarch powers for example howling banshees could lose an attack to gain extra strength as they use there swords two handed. mainly this is so they have some speshal moves they know from training and down lose just cos the exarch died.

my favorite idea is for phoenix lords where, if they are killed then don't remove them but leave them where they are and any craftworld Eldar in base contact with them can be removed and the phoenix lord comes back with a grudge to settle.

oh and rules for more seers like bone singes, webway seers, warseers and so on each filling specif rolls.

Ivellis
29-09-2011, 00:04
If I had my way Eldar would be a lot more elite, but then they would be out of parity with Dark Eldar.

I'm talking a lot more WS and BS 5, almost no saves below 4+, most things with 2 attacks base and exarches with 2 wounds and a 2+ save. Also more powerful weaponry. They still keep the S3 and T3 average and cost more points.

Spell_of_Destruction
29-09-2011, 00:20
More WS/BS 5 is tempting but I don't think it really achieves much in terms of game balance and I'm a bit wary of 'stat creep'.

Dark Eldar are supposed to be better fighters than Craftworld Eldar and very few of their units get higher than WS/BS 4.

I'm more keen to see the blurry distinction between Aspect Warrior powers and Exarch powers (the former being those that improve the squad and the latter being those that improve the only exarch) cleared up so that Aspects can buy abilities without the need for an exarch. They suddenly lose those skills if the exarch dies? I don't buy it.

Shamana
29-09-2011, 01:05
More WS/BS 5 is tempting but I don't think it really achieves much in terms of game balance and I'm a bit wary of 'stat creep'.

Depends, if the rumors that 6th edition will have modifiers to BS depending on the size and speed of the target high BS will certainly have an effect. As I see it, if it costs the same as a marine, is less tough/strong and isn't meant to be in CC, a slightly higher initiative isn't enough. I could definitely see BS 5 on reapers or hawks (and rangers), or WS 5 on banshees and scorpions. It's not necessarily the way to go, but it is an option.


Dark Eldar are supposed to be better fighters than Craftworld Eldar and very few of their units get higher than WS/BS 4.

Hmm, this is something I'm still a bit wary on. The last DE codex states something like that, but iirc DE used to be mostly raiders, not warriors. Even more than craftworlders, they are supposed to avoid large confrontations - pirates rather than soldiers. Apart from Incubi, I'm not sure if warriors are better trained than aspects.


I'm more keen to see the blurry distinction between Aspect Warrior powers and Exarch powers (the former being those that improve the squad and the latter being those that improve the only exarch) cleared up so that Aspects can buy abilities without the need for an exarch. They suddenly lose those skills if the exarch dies? I don't buy it.

Yeah, that's a bit meh. On the other hand, I could imagine the aspect squad coming with a "stock" exarch, like how SMs come with a sergeant - the aspect warriors are coming from a specific shrine, and led by the Exarch who trained them. They don't lose the shrine abilities, but perhaps the exarch might have a few squad buffs reliant on him being present.

Rlyehable
29-09-2011, 04:00
Plastic Aspect Warriors (ahem. sorry)

Make Farseers supportive psykers. 3 powers, 2 or more must be supportive.
Make Warlocks destructive psykers. 2 powers, 1 or more must be destructive. Warlocks are HQ, but do not take a FOC slot. Maximum fielded is equal to number of aspect warrior units.

Supportive Powers. Make these powers affect all within 12". Do not have to pass psychic test to use.
- Conseal (5+ cover if in open or stealth if in cover)
- Destiny - units may regroup regardless of restrictions
- Embolden - units may reroll failed leadership-based tests
- Enhance - Eldar psykers in range double range (except for those using the flame template)
- Fury - Eldar units in range gain furious charge
- Guide - Eldar units in range may re-roll failed to-hit rolls.
- Ward - Extends the effects of Runes of Warding to 48" (does not stack)

Destructive powers:
- Destructor
- Doom
- Eldrich Storm - {improve somehow}
- Energize - Makes witchblade a force weapon in addition to existing description.
- Mind War - target makes Ld test on 3d6 and looses 1 wound per difference if fail, no armor or cover saves allowed
- Spectre of Death - double count of wounds inflicted close combat for combat resolution.

Avatar of Kaine WS10 BS10 S8 T6 W6 I6 A6 Ld10 Pts200 Monstrous Creature. Fleet. All units within 12" are stubborn and has same effect as Destiny power.

Aspect/Exarch Armor may save vs weapons with an AP equal to or higher than their save.

All aspect warriors gain plasma and krak grenades.

Fire Dragon weapon may be fired as melta or flamer

Striking Scorpians gain fleet. Exarch give unit option for hidden deployment.

Dire Avengers gain shuriken pistols and close combat weapons.

All shuriken catapults go to 18" (not just Dire Avengers).

Guardian Defenders loose shuriken catapult, but gain shuriken scattergun R:12 S:4 AP:5 Assault 3. Option to add plasma and/or krak grenades. Squads of 10-20. Options to take and split off heavy support and heavy weapon platforms.

Storm Guardians gain option to take plasma and/or krak grenades.

Expand Harliquins

Guardian Jetbikes - Option to add Vypers to squads

Vypers - Become 2 wound Eldar Jetbike. Drop in cost.

Rangers/Pathfinders - Drop in cost. Give offensive/defensive/anti-tank grenades.

Eldar Corsairs - Black Guardian stats.

Exodite Dragon-knights

Swooping Hawks - Lasblaster R:48" S:3 AP:4 Assault 3, Does not need LOS (shoots from height). Gain shuriken pistol and CCW.

Warp Spiders - Deathspinner R:Template S:6 AP:5 Assault 1, Monofiliment (like night spinner weapon). Gain shuriken pistol and CCW.

Shining Spears - Fly-through attack similar to DE Reaver bikes, but with laser lance.

Dark Reaper - Carry reaper missile launcher with 3 different missile types: krak (heavy 1), plasma (heavy 1, sm blast), reaper (as current). Gain relentless. Gain plasma and krak grenades.

Shadow Spectres

All Exarch powers effect the entire squad.

Crystal Dragons - Aspect that specializes in armored warfare. Upgrade to vehciles. If one vehicle takes it, all vehicles must take it.
BS4 WS4 I5 A+1 Ld9 vehicle normal. Skilled Rider.

Wraith units have 3+/4++ saves. Wraithsight is changed to "may only target units upto 12" away".

Wraithguard become monstrous creatures. Honorguard may be taken for Wraithlord.

Wraithlord may reroll failed wraithsight checks.

War walkers moved to fast attack. Are fast (move 6" or 2d6" in movement phase) and may fleet. May be upgraded to Wasp.

All vehicles may take one power field:
- Forcefield - as Wave Serpent
- Holofield - as current
- Forcebubble - walker does not count as open-topped

Crystal Targeting Matrix upgrade - Allows S6 weapons to count as defensive.

Starcannon back up to Heavy 3

Fireprism and vibro weapons are "harmonic" - If a target is hit by more than one of the same type of harmonic weapon in a turn, each hit after the first is at +1 Strength and -1 AP (to max strength of 10 and min. AP of 1).

Eldar vehicle upgrade - Prism-field: Non-vehicle units with a model within 2" gain a 4+ cover save and count as being in cover if assaulted.

Boo Goes the Liche
29-09-2011, 05:42
im new to 40k and alot of my friends play some variant of SM

Charistoph
29-09-2011, 05:55
- Give Guardians Lasblasters as basic, with the option to upgrade to Shuripults.
- Shuripults modified to be 18", Assault 2 for all.
- All current AP - weapons to be upgraded to AP 6 or better (for an advanced race, no other army has so many weapons without any AP, especially when they were built to fight Necrons!), 1 or 2 exceptions permitted.
- Dire Avengers to get Shuripistol, CCW, and Shuripult as default.
- Either an Assault Transport or upgrade for Serpent to have Assault Ramps. (Assuming Fleet isn't changed to cover this)
- Certain Pheonix Lords can make their Aspects Troops, the rest Scoring.
- General price reduction.
- Autarchs being the general fighty bada**es they are supposed to be with more equipment options than any other model in the codex.

What I expect:
- 1 or 2 new Aspects, with 1 or 2 Aspects going to a plastic kit.
- The new Aspects and the plastic Aspects will be the best options to take, with the ones that they replace becoming much worse or more expensive.
- Flier model that will make DE Pilots cry.
- Imperial Guardsmen/Dark Eldar/Tau playing this codex because "it fits their fluff fighting style better".
- Cries of "Nerf the Eldar!!1!1!!Ragequit!!1!" filling up Warseer 40K General/Tactics/Rumors & News.

Nazguire
29-09-2011, 06:32
So banshees can be more useful against elite heavy infantry or MCs, who often ignore their armor, I suppose. I'm not 100% keen on it, but wouldn't mind seeing a 5++ save in melee (worse than the wych, and wyches are a lot cheaper), so they have some staying power against terminators, MCs, or the like.

Fluffwise, banshees are shock troops, their aspect role is to be the bringers of death. What they attack, must die (/whistles "For whom the bell tolls"). Scorpions are better at grinding down a horde enemy via more attacks and better armor, and attacking from surprise. Bansheerinas are all in for the killing.

BTW, both aspects aren't great at what they do. I hear a lot of talk about synergy, but if a unit is a specialist, it should be good in its field of focus for its points - especially for narrow specialists like the banshees. Synergy is 1+1 = 3, not 1+1+1=2. It's not news that banshees have a hard time with their chosen target (marines) without external support, and scorpions aren't necessarily uberpowerful in their field of expertise. Has anyone tried running tests on, say, scorpions with an exarch vs ork shoota boys with nob for the same points? As I see it, scorpions have a minor edge when assaulting, but will probably fold in the 2nd round if assaulted.

I'd like the Banshees to not have Invulnerable saves. It makes Scorpions redundant. Why take Scorpions, when you have 4+/5+ Howling Banshee with power weapon,fleet, Acrobatic and Banshee Masks?

Also again it's infringing on Dark Eldar territory. Sounds lame, but both Eldar armies need to have their own play styles.

I think just a tightening of Banshees rules would be good. As previously said, allow the skills to be bought for the whole unit, not the Exarch. Maybe a points decrease, Assault Ramps for Wave Serpents (the Eldar army is about synergy after all, foot slogging Howling Banshees just don't work) and you'd be pretty much there.

Spell_of_Destruction
29-09-2011, 06:54
I think just a tightening of Banshees rules would be good. As previously said, allow the skills to be bought for the whole unit, not the Exarch. Maybe a points decrease, Assault Ramps for Wave Serpents (the Eldar army is about synergy after all, foot slogging Howling Banshees just don't work) and you'd be pretty much there.

Of course the next codex will be written for a new edition so there's a serious amount of guesswork involved with regards to what is 'needed'. Many proposed 5th ed fixes may well become redundant.

On the subject of assault ramps, the 6th ed rumours circulating a few months back suggested that units with fleet would be able disembark and assault in the same turn. Take with a pinch of salt obviously.

Nazguire
29-09-2011, 08:42
Of course the next codex will be written for a new edition so there's a serious amount of guesswork involved with regards to what is 'needed'. Many proposed 5th ed fixes may well become redundant.

On the subject of assault ramps, the 6th ed rumours circulating a few months back suggested that units with fleet would be able disembark and assault in the same turn. Take with a pinch of salt obviously.

See, that'd be awesome if those rumours were true. Howling Banshees could be whizzed up via Wave Serpent right up the line to a unit sitting at the back, like Devastators, they disembark, assault, mince them.

I see your point however. And I think that Howling Banshees are a unit that isn't direly in need of fixing.

It's more the fleshing out of options for the Eldar, tweaking things etc like maybe 18" for Guardians, better and more powers for Farseers/Warlocks, buffing the Avatar, etc that needs to be done. Nothing incredibly major in redesigning, just tweaking.

Shamana
29-09-2011, 09:18
I'd like the Banshees to not have Invulnerable saves. It makes Scorpions redundant. Why take Scorpions, when you have 4+/5+ Howling Banshee with power weapon,fleet, Acrobatic and Banshee Masks?

Why take scorpions, eh? Well, here are a few reasons:

- better save. 5++ in meleedoesn't matter against a foe with non-power weapons, and 3+ is better than 4+

- more attacks. That one should be pretty obvious ;).

- better strength. Once again, more wounds.

Scorpions are definitely not redundant. Acrobatic doesn't matter unless you get charged, and the masks are only useful against foes who already have initiative of 5 or higher... which is to say, not that many. Basically, let's say you charge orks. You hit first either way. 10 banshees make 30 attacks, of which 15 hit, 5 wound; then when the orcs counterattack, you save half the wounds. 10 scorpions make 40 attacks, of which 20 hit, and 10 wound, then you save 2/3rds of the wounds.

Now, I do think scorpions can be a little better as well - as I wrote before, right now whether they win or are ground down against ork shoota boys of the same points depends on who gets the charge. Ideally, Banshees should be better vs targets with 2+ or 3+ save, Scorpions against targets with 6+ or 5+, with the two being about equal against targets with 4+ save.

As for it stepping on the toes of dark eldar if banshees got an invulnerable save in melee, it doesn't bother me that much - there are bound to be some parallels between the two. Or should the WH/DH cry foul because their assassins had it first? Mind you, I'd be fine if banshees instead got WS5 (hey, they are meant to fight elite infantry), a 2nd base attack, rerolling on to hit or wound rolls,better war shout, or something like that.

Nazguire
29-09-2011, 09:25
Why take scorpions, eh? Well, here are a few reasons:

- better save. 5++ in meleedoesn't matter against a foe with non-power weapons, and 3+ is better than 4+

- more attacks. That one should be pretty obvious ;).

- better strength. Once again, more wounds.

Scorpions are definitely not redundant. Acrobatic doesn't matter unless you get charged, and the masks are only useful against foes who already have initiative of 5 or higher... which is to say, not that many. Basically, let's say you charge orks. You hit first either way. 10 banshees make 30 attacks, of which 15 hit, 5 wound; then when the orcs counterattack, you save half the wounds. 10 scorpions make 40 attacks, of which 20 hit, and 10 wound, then you save 2/3rds of the wounds.

Now, I do think scorpions can be a little better as well - as I wrote before, right now whether they win or are ground down against ork shoota boys of the same points depends on who gets the charge. Ideally, Banshees should be better vs targets with 2+ or 3+ save, Scorpions against targets with 6+ or 5+, with the two being about equal against targets with 4+ save.

As for it stepping on the toes of dark eldar if banshees got an invulnerable save in melee, it doesn't bother me that much - there are bound to be some parallels between the two. Or should the WH/DH cry foul because their assassins had it first? Mind you, I'd be fine if banshees instead got WS5 (hey, they are meant to fight elite infantry), a 2nd base attack, rerolling on to hit or wound rolls,better war shout, or something like that.


If you're charging big mobs of Orks with Howling Banshees you're probably going to find it rough with a 5++ or not.

They have power weapons and Banshee masks. Perhaps change the Banshee mask to lower the WS & I to 1 instead? That way you aren't radically giving them more attacks, or re-rolls etc. Lowering a Space Marine Terminator Squad to WS1 against them basically spells the end of the unit. Which is what you'd be aiming for with Howling Banshees anyways.

Manqs
29-09-2011, 09:53
I would like to see some decrease in points for a few units. Better Guardians and maybe more difference between Guardians and Dire Avengers.
And BS 4 for vehicles. Eldar Tech + Eldar skill = BS 4...

But mostly I would like Swooping Hawks to actually be viable. I would really like them being some kind of anti-horde unit. Giving their guns more shots would be a nice fix.
Kinda fits their description as well.

feintstar
29-09-2011, 09:58
I've said this before and received nothing but flame posts, but I have an interesting idea for guardians which doesn't revolve around changing them much from their current set up but would make them worth taking)

Sure, give them better scatterpults etc., I agree with making them worth 8 points each, but I reckon that guardians should be the 'Bard' type unit for the Eldar:

After all, these are conscripts that are usually walking other non combat paths - perhaps they should provide non combat benefits?

for example, you could be able to upgrade 1 guardian to become a medic - FNP aura anyone? 1 guardian to be a musician of sorts - banner bearer Ld reroll anyone? 1 guardian to be a Wraithsinger - Techmarine anyone? Perhaps one of them could be upgraded to an armoursmith of sorts - Further Techmarine/Jokaero type upgrades perhaps?

At the end of those upgrades, you a have a super fragile but ultra worthwhile unit that would desperately be wanted on the front lines. Not just a space filler but a force multiplier, with ablative wounds. Further, by creating the musician/healer/wratihsinger upgrades, GW sells a lot more blisters to a lot of Eldar players who already own lots of guardians. Business sense anyone?

jt.glass
29-09-2011, 10:08
My Eldar army currently consists or 2 squads of DA, 2 Wave Serpents, and a Farseer with 3 'locks (none of which are yet painted), so I'm perhaps not qualified to answer. But I'm going to anyway. :D

Anyway, my thoughts centre around Guardians. I'd like to consider fielding them, but for that to do that they need to stop sucking so hard. Possibilities include:

A decent range on their guns is the absolute minimum they need. Give them 24" (DA should be 24" too, but with some other advantage; Rending perhaps).
Give them the option to take lasblasters instead.
Pistol + CCW (and grenades) should not be a separate choice, they should have it by default. Seriously, Eldar are short of warm bodies, but have basically unlimited stuff. It makes no sense for Guardians to be under-equipped.
Make weapons platforms optional, but allow them a decent number of them if they do take them. Allow special weapons instead, or Support Weapons platforms (which should cease to be a separate choice - if guard can have HWS as Troops, so can Eldar).
I like the idea that someone posted in a previous thread that they should give nearby Aspect Warrior some sort of bonus.


jt.

Shamana
29-09-2011, 10:29
@ Nazguire - as I said already, improved warshout (or even auto-guaranteed) could certainly work as well.


for example, you could be able to upgrade 1 guardian to become a medic - FNP aura anyone? 1 guardian to be a musician of sorts - banner bearer Ld reroll anyone? 1 guardian to be a Wraithsinger - Techmarine anyone? Perhaps one of them could be upgraded to an armoursmith of sorts - Further Techmarine/Jokaero type upgrades perhaps?

Actually, I think these would work better on a psyker unit; there was an idea to have elite unit of psykers that you can specialize and either use together or allocate to other units (like how SWs do with wolf guard). A techmarine is a bonesinger - and that's a psyker. The "banner bearer" we already have in the embolden warlock. FNP aura might seem like cheese on eldar (though DE have it via the PfP system), but that would also be something that eldar might have seers for. I'm not keen on regular guardians doing that, it adds nothing. If psykers do it at least it adds to the theme of the race.

feintstar
29-09-2011, 10:38
While I agree that these are in fact psychic powers, from a fluff perspective all Eldar are supposed to be highly psychic. Further, I don't see why being a medic for humans can grant FNP in an aura without psychic powers while the Eldar can't replicate the same trick without using a psychic power. Also, I would suggest that an Eldar medic would be not only better than a human medic, but would also use psychic technology to do so. Lastly, I'd also suggest that the path of the medic would be a very different discipline to the path of the seer.

I will concede that the Bonesinger is a form of seer, but again I don't feel that a battlefield seer such as a warlock of farseer is an appropriate representation for a builder/tech maker. This is not a combat trained psychic, and as such he does not belong in a warlock bodyguard - he belongs with his fellow non combatants - in the guardians, or off the battlefield entirely.

This idea I feel plays very much into the theme of the race - even the cannon fodder are experts! Finally you can see a race on the edge of the precipice, while also showing an elite list

Manqs
29-09-2011, 10:53
I've said this before and received nothing but flame posts, but I have an interesting idea for guardians which doesn't revolve around changing them much from their current set up but would make them worth taking)

Sure, give them better scatterpults etc., I agree with making them worth 8 points each, but I reckon that guardians should be the 'Bard' type unit for the Eldar:

After all, these are conscripts that are usually walking other non combat paths - perhaps they should provide non combat benefits?

for example, you could be able to upgrade 1 guardian to become a medic - FNP aura anyone? 1 guardian to be a musician of sorts - banner bearer Ld reroll anyone? 1 guardian to be a Wraithsinger - Techmarine anyone? Perhaps one of them could be upgraded to an armoursmith of sorts - Further Techmarine/Jokaero type upgrades perhaps?

At the end of those upgrades, you a have a super fragile but ultra worthwhile unit that would desperately be wanted on the front lines. Not just a space filler but a force multiplier, with ablative wounds. Further, by creating the musician/healer/wratihsinger upgrades, GW sells a lot more blisters to a lot of Eldar players who already own lots of guardians. Business sense anyone?

It's a good idea but I would rather see this for the entire army. Since most Eldar walks different paths and masters them before picking the next one. I would love Aspect Warriors who have mastered the witching path before starting upon the path of the warrior. Sneaky Scorpion with eldritch lightning?! Please yes!
Or to be able to upgrade characters with different mastered paths.

Then again my idea is silly in a game balancing sense. You're idea is good enough.

Drakeus
29-09-2011, 11:48
Heh, wishlisting threads are so awesome ;)

IMHO, Eldar need to have their Heavy Weapons' points decreased slightly. ShuriCannon for the basis, Scatter at 10pts, Starcannon (which should be Heavy 3) at 25pts, EML at 15pts and Lance at 25pts. That would be fair.

What else? Melee Aspects (Scorps, Banshees, Spears) with WS5 and A2 at the basis; Dark Reapers 25pts per model; Dire Avengers with CCW&SP; Fire Dragons with FnP/Immunity to fire-based weapons; Warp Spiders with S6 AP- templates; Hawks with bombing runs depending on the unit size(not only 1 weak blast) and higher-rate-of-fire lasblasters (Assault 3?); Wraithguard with W2, 18" Wraithcannons and CC options; Warlocks with WS5 and A2; Vehicles with BS4 at the basis (Falcon, Vyper, War Walkers!); Wraithlord with different Aspect options (they are hosted by the Exarchs soulstones fluffwise - which is silly to me, but still...), A3 and maybe some invul save? 5+?).

Now we have too reliant on Farseers and their supportive role. No Farseer = harder games. I, personally, play on two Autarchs and I can see how they struggle with killing even basic infantry - 6 attacks with Mandiblasters with PW and swoosh swoosh 6 attacks got hit, 2 killed...not really competetive comparing to Archon - and cost is the same.

Nonetheless - I would like to see Guardians and Pathfinders re-done. Guardian mobs seem really silly to me, maybe 6-7 Guardians + Weapon platform and rumored Shimmershield generator would be awesome to see and/or field. Note that I'm Guardians fanboy (once had 90 of them ;p). Pathfinders? Maybe some kind of "Veil of Tears" technique/device/whatsoever, always-to-wound-on-3+ thing....dunno.

I keep my fingers crossed that they will not screw my Eldar up.

Nazguire
29-09-2011, 12:08
While I agree that these are in fact psychic powers, from a fluff perspective all Eldar are supposed to be highly psychic. Further, I don't see why being a medic for humans can grant FNP in an aura without psychic powers while the Eldar can't replicate the same trick without using a psychic power. Also, I would suggest that an Eldar medic would be not only better than a human medic, but would also use psychic technology to do so. Lastly, I'd also suggest that the path of the medic would be a very different discipline to the path of the seer.

I will concede that the Bonesinger is a form of seer, but again I don't feel that a battlefield seer such as a warlock of farseer is an appropriate representation for a builder/tech maker. This is not a combat trained psychic, and as such he does not belong in a warlock bodyguard - he belongs with his fellow non combatants - in the guardians, or off the battlefield entirely.

This idea I feel plays very much into the theme of the race - even the cannon fodder are experts! Finally you can see a race on the edge of the precipice, while also showing an elite list

I'd like to see a Bonesinger as a seperate Elites choice, like the Techmarine is for the Space Marines.

I like your ideas about upgrading a Guardian to a certain civilian class. Certainly, this may be something that could add something even more useful to an already useful Troops choice.

With the medics granting a FnP aura, that isn't in the background terms an actual real aura. It's just to represent the fact that the Medic is able to rush over to the person who's been shot and fix him up quickly because he's in close proximity. Or, that's all I've ever envisioned it as.

The only one that I'd truly like to see of the upgrades you've mentioned is the Bonesinger, who can do something like Bolster Defences for the Guardians, and construct terrain out of nowhere using wraithbone. Perhaps instead of a seperate Elites choice, have him as an upgrade for Guardians like you said. Would certainly increase survivability and add flavour to the army. But nothing too extraordinary.

sidcom
29-09-2011, 12:26
IIRC from Path of the Warrior, when main protagonist was going through process of healing, it was mentioned it is absolutly necessary he would remove his war mask before they could heal him

not sure if they can do it in a middle of fighting

eldargal
29-09-2011, 14:18
In no way are bonesingers seers. They are artisans, they make things they do not do anything related to the Path of the Seer beyond make the equipment the Seers use. Yes they both use their psychic abilities but so do Eldar poets and sculptors. Eldar are inherently psychic. Seers prognosticate, Bonesingers craft things. I suppose by human standards all Eldar are psykers, but that doesn't make them all seers.




I will concede that the Bonesinger is a form of seer, but again I don't feel that a battlefield seer such as a warlock of farseer is an appropriate representation for a builder/tech maker. This is not a combat trained psychic, and as such he does not belong in a warlock bodyguard - he belongs with his fellow non combatants - in the guardians, or off the battlefield entirely.

Sildani
29-09-2011, 14:45
Righty-o. I threatened to write more about my Eldar wishlist later, and that time has come. Bear in mind that 6th Edition is coming, and nebulous, and I don't remember half of the rumors regarding it. So these don't take it into account except that I don't believe the changes would be screwed up by 6th ed. either. If I'm wrong, I hope someone will say so.

For the Aspects, what the "unit buys" does not require an Exarch. I tried to envision these upgrades as integral to the Exarch's teachings OR benefits of the Aspect armor's technology. In either case, the squad wouldn't be deprived of the benefits if their Exarch was killed or if they never had one to begin with. Exarch powers, though, I feel only the Exarch's prescence can deliver. Make sense?

Oh, and if something's not listed, it remains just the way it is currently.

HQ:
Farseer: can cast two powers a turn, three if given spiritstones. If the power is nullified, the Farseer may make another psychic test to "force" the power to work.

Warlock: gain the Enhance psychic power. On a successful Psychic Test, the range of a Farseer's psychic power is doubled.

Autarch: may benefit from unit upgrades and Exarch powers. May buy any weapon the Aspect squads may buy. If attached to any infantry unit regardless of that unit's FOC slot, may claim an objective. May Seize the Initiative on a 5+. May allow one Eldar unit to either Deep Strike OR Outflank, regardless if the unit can ordinarily do do (representing the Autarch's peerless gifts of tactical positioning and timing).

Avatar: Gains Eternal Warrior. Gains 2+ armor save. While on the table, all Eldar units gain Stubborn.

Phoenix Lords: Gain a 5+ invulnerable save (except Asurmen, his catapults count as AP2). May be purchased as an upgrade to the appropriate Aspect squad. Grant all unit and Exarch powers to their squad.

ELITE:
Banshees: gain a 5+ invulnerable save in CC, Banshee mask grants I10 regardless of circumstance (grenades, cover, etc.) The unit can buy Counterattack and Stubborn. The Exarch can buy Furious Charge and War Shout (works the same as now).

Scorpions: Make one of their attacks at +2 Initiative (representing the Mandiblaster), unit can buy Stalker (works the same as now) and Preferred Enemy. The unit may be equipped with haywire grenades. The Exarch can buy Shadowstrike and Deep Strike (they've been there all along!)

Dragons: Unit gains 3+ save, every 4th model can buy a flamer, unit can buy Tank Hunters and Crack Shot. Exarch can buy FNP and Burning Fist (the Exarch summons her hatred and surrounds herself in a nimbus of white-hot energy. Her CC attacks ignore armor saves and can re-roll failed Wounds [this is intended to give the opponent pause before assaulting Dragons]).

Wraithguard: Wraithcannnon has an 18" range. Every model may exchange its gun for powerblades (see Codex Warp Spider Exarch entry). A unit of 5-9 models with a Spiritseer is a 0-2 Troops choice.

FAST ATTACK:
Spiders: every 3rd model can buy a scatter spinner (flamer template, Str 5 AP-, Pinning, wounds vs. target's Initiative stat). The unit can buy Hit & Run and Move Through Cover. Exarch can buy Better Deep Strike (re-roll scatter) and Warp Mastery (you may re-roll a double that was rolled for their Assault move).

Hawks: every 2nd model may buy a heavy weapon. The unit can buy Relentless and Tank Hunters. The Exarch can buy Better Deep Strike (see Spider Exarch) and Skyleap.

Spears: 2 Attacks base. The unit can buy Hit & Run and Skilled Rider. The Exarch can buy Preferred Enemy and Deep Strike.

War Walkers: they're here.

TROOPS:
Avengers: Dire catapult counts as a CCW and shuriken pistol. Every four models can replace their catapult with a shuriken cannon. The unit can buy Stubborn and Bladestorm. The Exarch can buy Counterattack and Defend.

Guardians: shuriken catapult is R24" Assault 2. Guardian Defenders get the Tactical Withdrawl rule (once they start to fall back, they cannot regroup). Eldar units (not vehicles, Guardian units or Monstrous Creatures) within 6" gain Stubborn. Every 10 models can buy a heavy weapon platform, or every 15 models can buy a support weapon battery. Storm Guardians can buy grenades, including haywire grenades.

Guardian Jetbikes: every 5th model can be upgraded to a Vyper. This is a jetbike with 2 wounds and can take the same weapon upgrades it currently can.

Rangers/Pathfinders: Pathfinders count their long rifles as Assault 1.

HEAVY SUPPORT:
Reapers: up to 2 models can buy an eldar missile launcher or tempest launcher. The unit can buy Fast Shot or Crack Shot. The Exarch can buy Relentless or Burning Fist (see Dragon Exarch).

Falcon: Can move 12" and fire all its weapons. May buy a BS4 upgrade.

Fire Prism: if the rules for Blast weapons are the same in 6th Ed., the Prism may buy an upgrade that allows its prism cannon to fire as if it wasn't a Blast weapon.

Night Spinner: its Doom Weavers wound vs. the target's Initiative stat.

Wave Serpent: not Heavy Support, but listed here with the other tanks. Gains an assault ramp. May "fire" its wave field to make a target unit within 6" take a Pinning check. This does not count as actually firing a weapon.

Wraithlord: remove Wraithsight. Two wraithswords grant +1 Attack. Two of the same heavy weapon no longer count as twin-linked.

WEAPONS:
Bright lance: is AP 1. Armor values greater than 11 count as being 11.
Scatter laser: Str 5 AP5 Heavy 5.
Starcannon: STR 5 AP2 Heavy 3.
Shadow Weaver: wounds vs. target's Initiative stat.
D-cannon: range 30".
Vibrocannon: may combine fire from up to 2 batteries. Where the lines of fire meet, add +1 Str to the shot for each contributing gun. If this is Str 10, any vehicle takes an automatic penetrating hit. Any infantry unit is automatically Pinned, regardless of whether it's Fearless or otherwise immune to Pinning.

Witchblade, Singing Spear: are force weapons.

If you like, I'll explain my reasoning later, this is already too long I'm afraid! Opinions welcome.

Nazguire
29-09-2011, 16:03
I don't understand why we need to improve every unit in the Codex. Aren't Aspect Warriors meant to be super specialised? That's their point yeah?

What's the point of giving a Fire Dragon a flamer when their role is as BS 4 melta carrying (every one of them has a melta) tank hunters? Giving the Exarch a flamer, yeah cool, but allowing them into the Fire Dragon squad itself? So they're super tank hunters, plus troop killers? And have good close combat skills as well? With 3+ save? And FnP? I don't understand why these are necessary?

Same deal with the Reapers. Their designed to smash heavily armoured infantry from long range. And you want to give them long range Eldar missile launchers to kill tanks too? Aspect Warriors are meant to be super specific roles to encourage the Synergy of the list. I'm not understanding here.

Drakeus
29-09-2011, 16:52
I don't understand why we need to improve every unit in the Codex. Aren't Aspect Warriors meant to be super specialised? That's their point yeah?

What's the point of giving a Fire Dragon a flamer when their role is as BS 4 melta carrying (every one of them has a melta) tank hunters? Giving the Exarch a flamer, yeah cool, but allowing them into the Fire Dragon squad itself? So they're super tank hunters, plus troop killers? And have good close combat skills as well? With 3+ save? And FnP? I don't understand why these are necessary?

Same deal with the Reapers. Their designed to smash heavily armoured infantry from long range. And you want to give them long range Eldar missile launchers to kill tanks too? Aspect Warriors are meant to be super specific roles to encourage the Synergy of the list. I'm not understanding here.

Quoted for truth.

Eldar are not Marines. Their infantry is maximally specialised. Scorpions are for low-save killing, Banshees are termie/marines killing, Shining Spears are for killing very heavy infantry (T5+), Dragons are for Tank Hunting (nothing else!), Hawks are for support vs. GEQ armies, Spiders are for disrupting enemy support etc. etc.

Aspects need only a simple buff per Aspect, as I have described in my previous post.

Eldar army is a synonym to synergy.

fidesratioque
29-09-2011, 16:58
Actually, that is not truly accurate from a fluff perspective. The aspects of Khaine represent various facets of the war-god, so for example, Dire Avengers represent the noble warrior, Fire Dragons the reckless destroyer, Striking Scorpions the secretive killer, Swooping Hawks the harassing bird of shame, etc. What I mean is that the aspects like Fire Dragons do not represent 'Khaine as the Tank Destroyer' etc.

Sildani
29-09-2011, 17:19
Well, every other Codex improves every unit, or changes it. Why should Eldar be any different?

The Dragons have a 3+ save because their armor has been described as ornate and heavier than other Aspects' armor. It also helps them survive when the vehicle they're shooting explodes. As for FNP and the squad flamers, that's probably a bit much, I agree. Now, for Burning Fist - I don't see how it makes a 2A Str 3 Exarch "good" in CC. You're never going to want to assault with him, but with this power, they're not an automatic pushover.

Dark Reapers - they specialize in death from afar. Heavily-armored infantry is rarely seen outside of transports, and Reapers need to be a compelling choice in a crowded slot. I feel they need the missiles to do this to help open said transports, rather than the Eldar player simply taking another choice. The Reapers in this incarnation provide accurate high-strength firepower while being more easily concealable than a tank or Wraithlord, while being more heavily armored than a squad of Hawks. Another possible fix would be to make them have a unit size of 5-10 like all the other Aspects and ditching the squad missile launchers. That'd be 18 reaper launcher shots that can potentially move and fire. Hmm...

So, instead of FNP, what second power would make sense for the Dragon Exarch to have access to?

Much has been made of Eldar synergy. Few have been able to describe it, or provide examples of any tangible benefit. Any army can equip a squad to open up a transport and have another squad nearby to kill the contents. This is not exclusive.

Finally, Eldar Aspects are supposed to be very specialized. One Aspect does one thing very, very well. I fully agree with this view. However, list tailoring is frowned upon. A lot. If, Drakeus, Hawks are for anti-GEQ support, and you take them, what are they supposed to do against Marines? Necrons? They cannot be suddenly useless, they have to have a benefit of some sort even if their specialized target is not present. The trick is to figure that out. Kelly gave Hawks haywire grenades and Intercept so that they could kill vehicles, but they're neither very good at it nor able to survive the retribution that inevitably follows. For a 200 point unit, that's simply throwing away points.

So. When does specialization in a game where list tailoring is unacceptable become a zero-sum proposition, to where the Eldar player can lose the game in the "Make Army List" phase? If the answer is "take all the Aspects you think you'll need", well, we have limited points and limited FOC slots. A Banshee squad can't then just kill one Marine or Terminator squad. They need to kill two or three, and by doing so one at a time they need to be able to survive retribution to do it again. Same with Dragons - one squad needs to survive to kill multiple tanks with a reasonable chance of effectiveness.

See my point? Specialization to an extreme is good when you can bring precisely the correct mix of Aspects and support to every game. But you can't in this environment - which is very un-Eldar like in itself! Eldar should never be an easy army to play. They should also never be so specialized they can't adapt.

mootant
29-09-2011, 17:24
Quoted for truth.

Eldar are not Marines. Their infantry is maximally specialised. Scorpions are for low-save killing, Banshees are termie/marines killing, Shining Spears are for killing very heavy infantry (T5+), Dragons are for Tank Hunting (nothing else!), Hawks are for support vs. GEQ armies, Spiders are for disrupting enemy support etc. etc.

Aspects need only a simple buff per Aspect, as I have described in my previous post.

Eldar army is a synonym to synergy.


Actually, that is not truly accurate from a fluff perspective. The aspects of Khaine represent various facets of the war-god, so for example, Dire Avengers represent the noble warrior, Fire Dragons the reckless destroyer, Striking Scorpions the secretive killer, Swooping Hawks the harassing bird of shame, etc. What I mean is that the aspects like Fire Dragons do not represent 'Khaine as the Tank Destroyer' etc.


I don't understand why we need to improve every unit in the Codex. Aren't Aspect Warriors meant to be super specialised? That's their point yeah?

What's the point of giving a Fire Dragon a flamer when their role is as BS 4 melta carrying (every one of them has a melta) tank hunters? Giving the Exarch a flamer, yeah cool, but allowing them into the Fire Dragon squad itself? So they're super tank hunters, plus troop killers? And have good close combat skills as well? With 3+ save? And FnP? I don't understand why these are necessary?

Same deal with the Reapers. Their designed to smash heavily armoured infantry from long range. And you want to give them long range Eldar missile launchers to kill tanks too? Aspect Warriors are meant to be super specific roles to encourage the Synergy of the list. I'm not understanding here.

In my opinion an aspect warrior squad having multiple potential roles is not, in and of itself, that big a deal; the important thing is that they remain specialised once a role is chosen and only useful for a specific role.

For example, Fire Dragons could perhaps exchange their meltaguns for flamers, but only if the entire squad did so (potential balance issues notwithstanding). It means that Fire Dragons can fulfil more than one role in the army (short range anti-infantry or short range anti-tank) but not more than one in any particular game.

eldargal
29-09-2011, 17:44
Quite, any army can do it, Eldar are forced to do it. Which I think is a good thing, but I also think my idea of using exarch abilities to customise the squad within their role (Banshees as anti-MEQ, Dragons as anti-tank) would be a better way to do it rather than just boosting their killiness in some arbitrary fashion. You could also have the exarch powers able to mitigate focus, so with a certain power Banshees become more useful against GEQ and Scorpions against MEQ. Not enough to dilute the focus of the Aspect, but enough to make the units more viable against armies they otherwise wouldn't be.


Well, every other Codex improves every unit, or changes it. Why should Eldar be any different?

The Dragons have a 3+ save because their armor has been described as ornate and heavier than other Aspects' armor. It also helps them survive when the vehicle they're shooting explodes. As for FNP and the squad flamers, that's probably a bit much, I agree. Now, for Burning Fist - I don't see how it makes a 2A Str 3 Exarch "good" in CC. You're never going to want to assault with him, but with this power, they're not an automatic pushover.

Dark Reapers - they specialize in death from afar. Heavily-armored infantry is rarely seen outside of transports, and Reapers need to be a compelling choice in a crowded slot. I feel they need the missiles to do this to help open said transports, rather than the Eldar player simply taking another choice. The Reapers in this incarnation provide accurate high-strength firepower while being more easily concealable than a tank or Wraithlord, while being more heavily armored than a squad of Hawks. Another possible fix would be to make them have a unit size of 5-10 like all the other Aspects and ditching the squad missile launchers. That'd be 18 reaper launcher shots that can potentially move and fire. Hmm...

So, instead of FNP, what second power would make sense for the Exarch to have access to?

Much has been made of Eldar synergy. Few have been able to describe it, or provide examples of any tangible benefit. Any army can equip a squad to open up a transport and have another squad nearby to kill the contents. This is not exclusive.

Finally, Eldar Aspects are supposed to be very specialized. One Aspect does one thing very, very well. I fully agree with this view. However, list tailoring is frowned upon. A lot. If, Drakeus, Hawks are for anti-GEQ support, and you take them, what are they supposed to do against Marines? Necrons? They cannot be suddenly useless, they have to have a benefit of some sort even if their specialized target is not present. The trick is to figure that out. Kelly gave Hawks haywire grenades and Interce

Sildani
29-09-2011, 17:58
Hmmm... nice idea, Eldargal, but what happens when the Exarch dies? It could make sense, since the Exarch is leading the squad in a non-traditional fight, that if she dies the squad fights far less effectively in this "new" manner.

Mootant: that could work, but the balance issues are potentially staggering. Your solution of "all one way, or all another" has merit though.

eldargal
29-09-2011, 18:02
Well, the fluff justification for the customisation would be different squads being from different Shrines just like we see in PotW and PotS. So ideally the abilities would go beyond the Exarch as that is how they had trained, but for balance reasons it could be fairer to have them go with the Exarch. Though perhaps make it a little harder to kill the Exarch, representing the squads loyalty to their mentor?

ArmyC
29-09-2011, 18:22
I would like to see these rule additions and changes.

Assault Drill - Exarch power available to Banshees, and Scorpians. (20 points) Allows a dedicated transport (Wave Serpent) equipped with vectored engines to act as an assault vehicle.

Rapid Advance – Eldar with fleet roll 2D6 when running and pick the highest result.

Star Cannons - strength 7.

Shuriken Catapults – Range 18”

Mind War – cost reduced to 10 points, no cover saves.

Eldritch Storm – cost reduced to 10 points, range 24”.

Runes of Warding – cost increase to 25 points

Ghost Helm Upgrade – Farseer may add or subtract 1 from any roll, used to negate the use of a psychic ability. (15 points)

Eldrad – increase cost to 240 points, and he has the Ghost Helm Upgrade.

Conceal – 5+ cover save, and +1 to cover saves from terrain and units.

Augment – Up to two Warlocks with this ability who are within 6” of the Farseer may add 3” each to the range of any Farseer psychic power. If the Farseer rolls double 1’s or double 6's each augmenting warlock suffers a perils of the warp attack. (5 points)

Phoenix Lords may designate one squad of their Aspect as a troop unit.

Phoenix Lords except Asurman gain a 5++ save.

War Shout – Change the leadership test to an initiative test.

Wraith Cannon - 18" range.

Ranger Long rifle – wounds on 3+, sniper, pathfinders rend on 5+

Blade storm - Avenger Shuriken Catapults may act as assault 3 weapons or instead may gain the rending USR during this shooting phase. This unit may not make range attacks next turn. This makes the ASC better than the Guardian weapon. Thick of it as a selector switch.

Warp Spiders – Surprise Assault – this unit rolls 1d6 to determine deep strike scatter. (10 points)

Shining Spear’s – 5 point cost reduction, Hit and Run reduce cost to 15 points, the laser lance and star lance change to Assault 2.

Vypers – 35 points, Scout, Holofields – 10, Star Eng – 5, Vect Eng - 5

Swooping Hawks – 2 point cost reduction, Hawk Wings – (add) Hawks may roll to arrive from reserve on the 1st turn. They succeed on a 4+. Roll normally after that. Hawks roll 1d6 for scatter when they deploy via deep strike, Sky Leap - (add) this unit may assault the turn it deep strikes.

Wraith Lords – 2nd weapon of the same type is no longer twin linked.

Dark Reapers - Fire Control - Exarch may target a separate unit. Change Crack Shot to a unit ability that requires rerolls of cover saves (15 points)

D Cannon – 30” range, cost increase +5 points

Shadow Weaver gains the monofilament rule, +5 points.

Vibro Cannon - no cover saves.

Falcon - May be selected as a dedicated transport by an Autarch, Farseer, or Phoenix Lord

titilititi
29-09-2011, 19:44
Here we have a 6th edition thread? To me, what all the eldars need is to modify their core emblematic rule : fleet.
I find that know that every other armies can rush, it's weakened and surely overcosted.
All the Eldar fluff shows them as ghosts that are very hard to catch. So I suggest "fleet" enables them to shoot then move. Then, those useless defender gardians could really get used as a trap.
Maybe, it would increase their price, but I think no eldar should cost less than ten points (if ever it worth that cost... 8 pts is a lot to much for what we have now, isn't it?)
And as a consequence, I would give back fire dragons their 3+ save, not to be concerned...
I also think Banshee helmet should give "furious charge" to the ones who are equiped with. Because as Banshees are now, it's just a ****** grenade. And striking scorpions are better against all kind of units, even when you have to mess with anti-spam... Once and again I'm not against a cost increase as long as it worth it!

Charistoph
29-09-2011, 19:50
Well, the fluff justification for the customisation would be different squads being from different Shrines just like we see in PotW and PotS. So ideally the abilities would go beyond the Exarch as that is how they had trained, but for balance reasons it could be fairer to have them go with the Exarch. Though perhaps make it a little harder to kill the Exarch, representing the squads loyalty to their mentor?

So, make the squad like the Exarch's Bodyguard? Each model in the squad can take 2 wounds before 1 is allocated to the Exarch?

This is assuming wound allocation has any resemblance to its current state, of corse.

Drakeus
29-09-2011, 20:00
Problem lies in who will write the Codex. Really, I don't want Matt Ward, Robin Cruddace or Gav Thorpe to write it. There are only two folks who are competent enough to do it - Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin. And Jes will not do it - he is a sculptor and designer, not a rule-writer.

Jervis Johnson?

Dunno.

Inquisitor Kallus
29-09-2011, 20:06
Squad based powers should be just that, squad based. The Exarch should have their own powers and potentially unlock squad based powers because of how he trains them to fight. Its ridiculous that the powers for a squad are lost when he dies.

'Oh no! Elatharil The Burning Heart is dead. Hang on, wait a sec, I thought that Leman Russ over there had a weak spot a second ago. Oh well.....'

I think id prefer Shriken Catapults to be 18" range at most. The 24 just seems a bit too much to my mind.

Drakeus
29-09-2011, 20:12
Fluffwise Shuriken Catapults have very small range.

Sildani
29-09-2011, 20:16
Yes, but that's what most Eldar players complain about. Making it 18" is possible, would that be enough of an improvement though?

Drakeus
29-09-2011, 20:19
18" is a safe counter-charge range. I think that it is possible, and Guardians would benefit from that. But what about Dire Avengers/

Inquisitor Kallus
29-09-2011, 20:24
18" is a safe counter-charge range. I think that it is possible, and Guardians would benefit from that. But what about Dire Avengers/

Exactly
(Letters for the Letter God)

Scy
29-09-2011, 20:37
Fluffwise Shuriken Catapults have very small range.

And fluff wise Farseer's are far an away the best psyker's in the galaxy...

Drakeus
29-09-2011, 20:43
And fluff wise Farseer's are far an away the best psyker's in the galaxy...

And they have got one of the best supportive powers in the game. Doom, Fortune, Guide, Mind War - they are very, very useful. Being the best psyker in the universe doesn't mean that they will have Darth Sidious-like powers (sparkle sparkle). They are seers - they do it well. How would You represent their role on the battlefield? Divination-like power that Eldrad has?

Note that Witchblades/Singing Spears should be force weapons, but, again... SMurfs always get the best stuff, they are inteded to be like that.

Solonor
29-09-2011, 20:45
I don't understand why we need to improve every unit in the Codex. Aren't Aspect Warriors meant to be super specialised? That's their point yeah?

What's the point of giving a Fire Dragon a flamer when their role is as BS 4 melta carrying (every one of them has a melta) tank hunters? Giving the Exarch a flamer, yeah cool, but allowing them into the Fire Dragon squad itself? So they're super tank hunters, plus troop killers? And have good close combat skills as well? With 3+ save? And FnP? I don't understand why these are necessary?

Same deal with the Reapers. Their designed to smash heavily armoured infantry from long range. And you want to give them long range Eldar missile launchers to kill tanks too? Aspect Warriors are meant to be super specific roles to encourage the Synergy of the list. I'm not understanding here.


Quoted for truth.

Eldar are not Marines. Their infantry is maximally specialised. Scorpions are for low-save killing, Banshees are termie/marines killing, Shining Spears are for killing very heavy infantry (T5+), Dragons are for Tank Hunting (nothing else!), Hawks are for support vs. GEQ armies, Spiders are for disrupting enemy support etc. etc.

Aspects need only a simple buff per Aspect, as I have described in my previous post.

Eldar army is a synonym to synergy.


Actually, that is not truly accurate from a fluff perspective. The aspects of Khaine represent various facets of the war-god, so for example, Dire Avengers represent the noble warrior, Fire Dragons the reckless destroyer, Striking Scorpions the secretive killer, Swooping Hawks the harassing bird of shame, etc. What I mean is that the aspects like Fire Dragons do not represent 'Khaine as the Tank Destroyer' etc.

Regarding Aspects,

I tend to agree with fidesratioque, like he said The aspects of Khaine represent various facets of the war-god, which makes them specialized against a small number of situations or enemies, in game terms that means Fire Dragons are specialized in hunting tanks and termies. they are perhaps the aspect that truly represents their fluff gamewise. Off course game designers must try to adapt the fluff of the aspect represented to the rules so that all specializations are covered with sucess in some cases, other erm..not so sucessfully. Here is a list with my opinion on which aspect of Khaine, each Aspect warrior should represent: :) i wont discuss points but i share the idea that Eldar should be more elite.

i would differentiate exarch powers (individual) and create aspect powers (collective), if the aspect squad his led by an exarch it can choose more aspect powers.

Dire Avenger - represents the iconic noble eldar soldier, defender of its people, stoic warrior.

Fire Dragons - represents the destroyer, i would only add the idea that since they specialize in destruction they should represent resistance to physical destruction too not only deliverance (like training to ignore pain).

Howling Banshees - for me banshees reflect the aspect of khaine granted by morai heg, they represent doom to the enemy, their arrival heralds the enemy demise and makes them powerless. iIt strikes me has odd that banshee masks dont grant penalties to the enemy (valid to all eldar units attacking the enemy unit that turn) instead of granting bonuses to banshees.

Striking Scorpions - represent the stalker and ambusher, should also reflect the sting of the animal they represent, making them a threat to high toughness units also.

Warp Spiders - they dont represent disruption, they represent the principle of agressive defence, they should appear to back up key defense point only to dissapear when their most needed elsewhere.

Swooping Hawks - these guys are the disruptors, they are poorly represented in the game and there are so many simple ways to achieve that, some already discussed, upgrading lasblasters to assault 3 giving them pinning with penalties to the enemy, making grenade drops when moving (and units hit by thr blast count has being under the effect of plasma granades until the end of the game turn) etc.

Shining Spears - represent the killing blow (lance) of Khaine, when they strike they strike hard. give them 2 attacks and ID on charge.

Dark Reapers - They represent the fact that you cant run, and you cant hide Khaine´s fury represented by the reaper will always get you. For me they should be the only aspect that should be able to choose more then one type of weapon (all models in the squad with same no multiple types), maybe between reaper launcher, EML, and shrieker cannon. Crack shot should apply to the whole squad, but only force cover saves to be rerolled not ignored.

i think i didnt forget any, i would also give a bonus skill point (in brackets) to each aspect, representing their war mask specialization. meaning that once they put there mask their warrior selves emerge and they are enhanced:

Dire Avenger - LD 9(10) not applicable to stubborn tests (they should have a power allowing that)
Fire Dragons - T 3(4) like jetbikes, doesnt count for ID etc
Howling Banshees - WS 4(5)
Striking Scorpions - ST 3 (4), scorpions sword would make scorpions always wound enemies on 5+ regarldess of thougness instead of +1 ST
Warp spiders - +1 AT
Swooping Hawks - Initv 5 (6)
Shining Spears - + 1 AT
Dark Reapers - S 4 (5)

off course for all intents in most cases the bonus would apply to all situations

regarding aspect armour and taking in consideration that guardians would gain a 4+ save, aspect armour should grant an invulnerable save of 6+ in addition to their present armour value. this would create a differentiation and be fluffy but not overpowered. the explanation his since eldar armour his like a second skin and reacts to impact, since aspects are higly skilled they have learned to concentrate their own energy to key points in the suit to deflect even the mightiest blow. of course while in their temple they can acomplish this every time in training in a battlefield its more difficult to concentrate and predict enemy strikes and shots...

Sorry for the wall of text :)

Ozendorph
29-09-2011, 21:07
Howling Banshees - for me banshees reflect the aspect of khaine granted by morai heg, they represent doom to the enemy, their arrival heralds the enemy demise and makes them powerless. iIt strikes me has odd that banshee masks dont grant penalties to the enemy (valid to all eldar units attacking the enemy unit that turn) instead of granting bonuses to banshees.

Actually, it would be awesome (and imo fluffy) if the Banshee Masks had the same effect as Rad Grenades, reducing the opponents' toughness by 1. As an alternative, the masks could allow re-rolls 'to wound' on the charge, as though the enemies have been Doomed by the wailing Banshees.

Solonor
29-09-2011, 21:16
thats an interesting idea, but i would go along with the ability of banshees mask to negate any positive initiative modifiers and halving both initiative and WS (rounding down), of the enemies of course :)
In addition they should have a power (exarch or squad) that reduced Strength also.

this would turn almost any hth specialist unit into quivering imps in the first round of the fight.

Drakeus
29-09-2011, 21:24
And give Banshees higher advantage...

How do I see my beloved Banshees?

WS5...Banshee masks as they are now (I10 + frag/defensive grenades).... rolling 2d6 for fleet and picking up the highest roll and finally A2 at the basis. That would set the score IMHO.

fidesratioque
29-09-2011, 21:32
I'm glad my comments about aspect fluff found some resonance.

The goal of aspects is not to specialize per se, but to embody one style of warfare, i.e. 'reckless destruction', 'stealth killing', etc. As long as the aspect squads fulfill that particular style of warfare then they are being true to fluff, in my view.

Hoshiyami
29-09-2011, 21:48
Some wishes from my own...
I would like to see eldar weapons that aren't put to shame by their imperial counterparts.
Brightlance <-> lascannon
Starcannon <-> plasma cannon
They're described like something "better" but in game terms they're quite dissapointing. Give brightlance 2 shots or AP1 with an increased range, make starcannon "Area" (or even heavy 1, big area) that makes MEQs cry (keep cost or increase it, as it fits).
D-weaponry ignore covers (or give some penalty to it, they make holes in reality, dont shoot projectiles).
Also, give guardians a 24" weapon (make shurikat 24" or give them another weapon I don't care), 4+ armor and make conceal some night fight/veil of tears-like hability to make clear their position is protected and AWAY from the fighting. Craftworld should care for their surviability.
Give swooping hawks some turboboost, bike-like 24" movement that allows them to drop grenades beneath them and receive a speed cover. It would fit better their role as harrassers.
Review heavy support weapons, make something to protect them (without view negating scenery they're way too frail now). Make some difference with how many vibrocannnons hit. Make 1d6 hits per hit, strenght increased per vibrocannon shooted as now. Each hit makes +1 to vehicle damage chart. If they have to stay as they are now, improve their damage output (give them big area templates).
I've a lot more of wishes, some already seen here (or enough similar) and some crazier than others (like spiders grabbing troop sized enemies when going to disformity and dropping them there) but I don't want to make it any longer :P

Drakeus
29-09-2011, 22:00
Oh gosh, man, 24" Shuriken Catapult range? O.O

Solonor
29-09-2011, 22:34
Regarding Guardians (and the inevitable Sk Catapult debate):

i agree that guardians shouldnt be expendable unprepared shock troops, but i also dont see sk catapult with 24" range. i also have a personal dislike for storm guardians basic equipment, although i like the idea of storm guardians and defender guardians having different roles. on a personal note i would like that flamers would dissapear from the Eldar Dex, to erase all imperial equivalent guns forever. i would replace them with a template weapon with the monofilament fluff and rules, but a with less strength then the death spinner of warp spiders.

If you give guardian 4+ armour you combine fluff and rules, making eldar basic armour some impressive piece of tech, offering good protection and still let the swift user to fleet (i know, i know, everybody else can run ), then the range of the catapult would only be adusted to 18" (give avengers same range but ap 4). Now for a more radical idea (that i know some love and others hate) i think they should have the option to have lasblaster st 3 ap5 assualt 2 pinning (give a different name to the Hawks lasblaster to have Assault 3 and advanced pinning has i suggested earlier). so you have:

Storm Guardians 6-12, equipped with sk catapult, for every 6 can have fusion gun or web gun (template). (use enhance warlock power to give the +1 ws +1 initv and +1 AT) to compensate for the lack of ccw if the Eldar player wants. they are equipped to be some good shock troops to get in to the fray with the Aspects. option for plasma grenades.

Defender Guardians 8-16, Lasblaster, for every 8 can have a heavy weapon platform, witha 24" range st 3 ap 5 assault 2 weapon and with the possibilty of having 2 heavy weapons the live up to their name of objective defenders, and providing cover to the Eldar Aspects.

Of course reading the rumours, i know GW wont change the current configuration of Defender and Storm.....but one can dream a little :)

Drakeus
29-09-2011, 23:13
Shuriken weaponry is somehow linked to Guardians. It's one of the most basic weapons in Eldar army, we have to deal with it. Complaining about ranges...if we give them 18", what would we do with Dire Avengers?

IMHO Guardians need either decrease in price, or better equipment. 4+ save would be very, very fair but cheesy compared to DE Warriors (who use similar stuff).

Still, we are paying 8pts for a guy who is only slightly different than Guardsmen, has got less weapon options, is less expendable and ...many, many others.

My solution to Guardians would be:
8pts per model, Plasma Grenades for Storms, Defensive for Defenders; ShuriCats 18" range; Web Gun as Solonor have said (S5AP-?) for Storms; Shimmershield generator for Defenders as an additional protection (non-movable?).

If we go that way, Dire Avengers should have their DA ShuriCats turned to Assault 3 (as we have got with Splinter Rifles and Shard Carbines). What I would also find awesome was turning Bladestorm into power which gives DA rending special rule /)^3^(\.
Cheers.

Spell_of_Destruction
29-09-2011, 23:22
I'd also like to see Guardian Defenders included in a new Troops choice called a "Guardian Warhost". This would be similar to an I.G. platoon and would allow you to take one warwalker squadron or one heavy support platform squad for every guardian defender squad taken - all as a single Troop choice.

So, a warhost could contain 2 Guardian Defender squads, a warwalker squadron and a D-Cannon battery.

I think that this should be done with the support batteries at the very least because even if they get a boost in the next codex I feel there will always be too much competition for them in the HS slots.


And they have got one of the best supportive powers in the game. Doom, Fortune, Guide, Mind War - they are very, very useful. Being the best psyker in the universe doesn't mean that they will have Darth Sidious-like powers (sparkle sparkle).

I agree with this. Even at the height of the powers of the Craftworld Eldar codex (2nd ed.) Farseers were not 'in your face' psykers with uber destructive powers. This is at least partially explained by the dangers faced by Eldar psykers who tap into the warp directly for psychic energy. They therefore prefer to draw upon stored sources of warp energy such as spirit stones. This does however limit their destructive power somewhat.

Here's how I would change Farseers in the next codex:-

Postulant - WS5 BS5 S3 T3 W2 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv4+(inv)
Farseer - WS5 BS5 S3 T3 W3 I5 A2 Ld10 Sv4+ (inv)
Farseer Ancient - WS5 BS5 S3 T4 W3 I4 A1 Ld10 Sv4+ (inv)

Mastery Level - Postulant (1), Farseer (2), Farseer Ancient (3) (if taken, spirit Stones increase Mastery Level by 1)

Psychic Powers stay largely the same but Guide, Fortune and Doom have two different levels denoted by (1) and (2). Casting a Level (2) power effectively counts as casting two powers and they are not available to Postulants. Guide (1), Fortune (1) and Doom (1) are the same as the current powers. If you purchase a (2) power, it may also be used at (1) level. Guide (2), Fortune (2) and Doom (2) are as follows:-

Guide (2) - All Eldar units within 6" of the Farseer gain re-rolls to hit.
Fortune (2) - All Eldar units within 12" of the Farseer may re-roll saves
Doom (2) - Eldar player may reroll to wound rolls against target enemy unit. Enemy unit must reroll successful saves.

Level (2) powers obviously need to be costed appropriately (I'm thinking around double the cost of level (1) powers).

Fraseer Ancient has Master of Divination special rule - allows Eldar player to seize the initiative on a 4+.

_________________________________

Shamana
29-09-2011, 23:41
Shuriken weaponry is somehow linked to Guardians. It's one of the most basic weapons in Eldar army, we have to deal with it. Complaining about ranges...if we give them 18", what would we do with Dire Avengers?

Oh, there are ways to make avengers better

1) Bladestorm: if the enemy is closer than the max range, avengers can make more shots (i.e. 3 if the enemy is within 12 inches, rending if within 6 inches) OR (if bladestorm is not a stock power but an upgrade)

2) Targeters: due to the avengers' advanced targeters and mastery of shuriken weapons, their catapults count as master-crafted* and/or reduce cover .

Sure, you can give avenger catapults 24 inch range, in DH their range category is 80 meters compared to 90 for the storm bolter in Rogue Trader (100 for the marine one in Deathwatch). Still, I don't think it's necessary to up avenger catapults in range, I'd rather they were given other powers.

*: seriously, with the eldar obsession on aesthetics, style and perfection, you'd expect a few mastercrafted weapons here and there!


IMHO Guardians need either decrease in price, or better equipment. 4+ save would be very, very fair but cheesy compared to DE Warriors (who use similar stuff).

Considering that Eldar are supposed to be an elite army (arguably more so than DE), having guardians cost 6-7 points is something I'd rather not see. I'd much rather they had better equipment - 18-inch catapults or 3-shot lasguns, possibly grenades (they are standard equipment on all imperial armies, even guardsmen). Besides, how much cheaper can they be than 8 points? Guardians shouldn't be as numerous (cheap) as ork boyz, never.

My idea for guardians is to mix storm and defender, so you can, say, take flamers and fusion guns in a squad using catapults as a base weapon; if there are no support platforms they should also have the option to be mounted on bikes. I'd like to see "storm guardians" being a 4+ armor upgrade (2 points - a 25% increase in cost to move from 5+ to 4+ isn't that little) and a "black guardian" upgrade increasing either WS or BS to 4 for 2 points when you want to represent either Ulthwe's veteran guardians or the Wild Riders of Saim-Han.

For a squad size, I'd say 6-12, with either 1 support weapon or one support weapon team (including 2 extra guardians) per 4. This makes guardians a little more numerous than aspects, up to 18 if you choose to take support weapons. However, given that this makes the unit more cumbersome and doesn't allow it to use a transport, 12 would be the usual amount - either with 3 special weapons or 2 support ones.


@ SOD: if spirit stones add one more power/turn, there should only be 2 farseer levels imo. 4 powers/turn from a single model is a bit too much, considering that before the GK codex, only a few SCs had 3.

Spell_of_Destruction
30-09-2011, 00:04
@ SOD: if spirit stones add one more power/turn, there should only be 2 farseer levels imo. 4 powers/turn from a single model is a bit too much, considering that before the GK codex, only a few SCs had 3.

This would only be an option for Farseer Ancients though who have weaker combat stats and would also cost more than a regular Farseer. When you factor in base cost + 4 psychic powers + Spirit Stones you're probably looking at a character in excess of 200pts.

Farseer Ancients would represent very rare individuals like Eldrad - incredibly old Farseers whose bodies have started to crystalise. There are maybe a handful of such individuals on the largest Craftworlds.

The higher master level can also be justified by the fluff reference I mentioned earlier - Eldar runic powers require less psychic energy to cast. So, purely in the context of how Eldar powers operate I don't think that a Mastery Level of 4 for such an individual would be excessive.

The idea behind a Postulant is that he/she is a younger seer - possibly the apprentice of a Farseer. Gamewise this allows the player the option of the popular cheap Doom-seer/Fortune-seer.

Apathyman
30-09-2011, 00:12
I just wanted to quote this for laughs, because in 2nd edition and RT, the eldar were allies of the human and their race-specific guns were better than the standard imperial guns, not the other way around.


Some wishes from my own...
I would like to see eldar weapons that aren't put to shame by their imperial counterparts.
Brightlance <-> lascannon
Starcannon <-> plasma cannon
They're described like something "better" but in game terms they're quite dissapointing. Give brightlance 2 shots or AP1 with an increased range, make starcannon "Area" (or even heavy 1, big area) that makes MEQs cry (keep cost or increase it, as it fits).
D-weaponry ignore covers (or give some penalty to it, they make holes in reality, dont shoot projectiles).
Also, give guardians a 24" weapon (make shurikat 24" or give them another weapon I don't care), 4+ armor and make conceal some night fight/veil of tears-like hability to make clear their position is protected and AWAY from the fighting. Craftworld should care for their surviability.
Give swooping hawks some turboboost, bike-like 24" movement that allows them to drop grenades beneath them and receive a speed cover. It would fit better their role as harrassers.
Review heavy support weapons, make something to protect them (without view negating scenery they're way too frail now). Make some difference with how many vibrocannnons hit. Make 1d6 hits per hit, strenght increased per vibrocannon shooted as now. Each hit makes +1 to vehicle damage chart. If they have to stay as they are now, improve their damage output (give them big area templates).
I've a lot more of wishes, some already seen here (or enough similar) and some crazier than others (like spiders grabbing troop sized enemies when going to disformity and dropping them there) but I don't want to make it any longer :P

While I get the fluff reasoning (Space Marines can't have the same guns as an ork! Nor guardsman/guardians), it does make me a little sad to have to agree that yes, they are pretty much just worse now.

I always considered 4th ed. just a streamlining of the 3rd ed. codex + CWE book, rather than an actual rewrite, so I'll just mention:
The shuriken catapult used to be an upgrade weapon (and had stats like one)
The D Cannon was awful, but did, in fact, ignore cover (and most of the other rules)
There was a thing called a lasblaster, and it was magical
Aspects were troops
There was a type of grenade or missile for every year in the universe
Armor save was based on armor the unit had, and you could sometimes purchase better.
Aspects were not locked in on their weapon profiles, IE Reapers could have more than one type of missile (yes, they had EMLs back then, and boy were there a lot of missile types. My favorite was either rad or virus/bio).

I'm not saying we should all go back to 2nd, far from it, but don't think that just because a codex and a half had the units one way means that's how it has to be forever. Don't feel like anything is locked in; be true to your theme, not a slave to specifics.

Shamana
30-09-2011, 00:31
Farseer Ancients would represent very rare individuals like Eldrad - incredibly old Farseers whose bodies have started to crystalise. There are maybe a handful of such individuals on the largest Craftworlds.

The higher master level can also be justified by the fluff reference I mentioned earlier - Eldar runic powers require less psychic energy to cast. So, purely in the context of how Eldar powers operate I don't think that a Mastery Level of 4 for such an individual would be excessive.

I think it would certainly be excessive, mechanically. As of the pre-last codex, there was no non-SC character who could cast 3 powers, and only a handful ever had that much - Eldrad, Ahriman, Njal, Tigurius... I think that was it. The GK codex was the first to introduce a "regular" psyker with 3 powers. Now, that's certainly not "normal" for the game - the Grey Knightsare one of the few armies that fluffwise could be considered in the league of the eldar in terms of psychic might. with 1K sons and Tzeentch-focused daemons being the others (the latter should imo be the best psykers in 40k bar none). I wouldn't mind eldar having 3 powers on unnamed psykers, especially if Eldrad is MIA after the Eye of Terror events. That, with a sprinking of psykers in other slots, will still keep them as an army with great psychic support. Upping the standard and allowing 4 powers for eldar seers is imo an unnecessary stat inflation. Guys, let's be honest here: 3 powers per turn is still pretty darn scary for a psyker. 2 isn't too bad, either :) .

Now, if you want to have weaker seers - postulants, as you call them - there's no reason not to; just have them in a different position. The "regular" HQ choice represents the leader of an entire warhost. I think it would be best to be able to take some psykers in an elite unit like the wolf guard, upgrading some as warlocks, bonesingers* or whatever as necessary, or as a HQ slot that doesn't take a force org slot, like how IG does with priests. Let these "neophyte" seers still be able to cast some of the more minor powers, but without access to the special gear or options true farseers have.

*: I don't care much for arguing whether bonesingers are "true" psykers or not, but imo the manipulation of psychosensitive materials like wraithbone is close enough to count for game purposes. The idea is that this unit would be composed of specialists - neophite seers, warlocks, bonesingers, etc - that you can keep as an elite unit or scatter around the other infantry teams. Role-wise, bonesingers can act a bit like techmarines - improving cover, creating improptu defenses, repairing tanks or wraith-constructs. Give them decent armor (3+) or toughness to represent, say, their living armor or inherent crystalization.

Spell_of_Destruction
30-09-2011, 00:51
I think it would be, mechanically. As of the pre-last codex, there was no non-SC character who could cast 3 powers, and only a handful ever had that much - Eldrad, Ahriman, Njal, Tigurius... I think that was it. The GK codex was the first to introduce a "regular" psyker with 3 powers, and considering that the GK are one of the few armies that fluffwise could be considered in the league of the eldar, I can live with that. Upping the standard and allowing 4 powers for eldar seers is imo an unnecessary stat inflation. Guys, let's be honest here: 3 powers per turn is still pretty scary for a psyker. 2 isn't too bad, either :) .

I think you're comparing apples and oranges. And it wouldn't be a case of upping the standard. The standard would still be 2 - for a regular Farseer. Upping a regular Farseer to 3 would cost around 50 extra points (based on current pricing) which is a fair chunk.

SM psykers tend to be strong combatants with powerful offensive powers. A Farseer fulfills a completely different role and is there primarily to enhance the units around him. As I pointed out, a Farseer Ancient would be prohibitively expensive in smaller games. If the base cost is 90-100pts you're looking at around 120pts for 4 psychic powers + another 20 for Spirit Stones which is close to 250pts for a single HQ.

If it's the Mastery Level itself that bothers you then I have no issue with it simply allowing the Farseer to cast the psychic power as it does now - no increase in Mastery Level.

We saw DE HQ receive some unprecedented stat increases in their recent codex so I don't think it's out of the question that their Craftworld counterparts might receive a similar boost to psychic abilities.


Now, if you want to have weaker seers - postulants, as you call them - there's no reason not to; just have them in a different position than a leader of an entire warhost, I think it would be best to be able to take some psykers in an elite unit like the wolf guard, upgrading some as warlocks, bonesingers* or whatever as necessary, or as a HQ slot that doesn't take a force org slot, like how IG does with priests. Let these "neophyte" seers still be able to cast some of the more minor powers, but without access to the special gear or options true farseers have.

Well I didn't completely flesh out my proposed rules but I did envisage that there would be further limitations imposed on postulants.

I'm not sure what you're getting at in saying that such an individual shouldn't be leading an entire Warhost given that 40k represents battles at skirmish level. It's perfectly plausible that such an individual could be responsible for leading a force 50 or so strong. The 'General' of the warhost (either a Farseer or Autarch) is obviously just fighting elsewhere, off table.

EDIT:

Just to clarify my point re the Mastery Level of Eldar psykers, I don't think that it would be correct to compare the Mastery Levels of a Farseers and GK Grandmaster to show relative strength of psychic abilities due to the aforementioned differences in the way that each individual harnesses and utilises psychic energy. The Mastery Level represents the individuals mastery of his particular psychic discipline only.

The best way I can demonstrate this is with further reference to the Dark Millenium supplement. Imperial and Chaos psykers had some very powerful offensive psychic powers at their disposal. These generally had high casting values (3 in many cases, which was the highest). Most Eldar powers were 1 or 2 and you could cast more of them as a result. They functioned in a completely different manner to the less subtle powers of the humans.

Apathyman
30-09-2011, 01:03
...the Grey Knightsare one of the few armies that fluffwise could be considered in the league of the eldar in terms of psychic might. with 1K sons and Tzeentch-focused daemons being the others (the latter should imo be the best psykers in 40k bar none)...

*: I don't care much for arguing whether bonesingers are "true" psykers or not...

Seems fine. Personally, though, I figure the Grey Knights were victims of the inflation, rather than the cause. When everyone else runs around with amazing powers, casting 2/3 a turn, how do you out-do that? Although can we please get away from each level of identical HQ needing a seperate name and line and just add numbers? It is a lot easier to read "Psychic Mastery, Level X" than "Seeing Stones, Bonus Frontal Lobe, Master of Ceremonies".

Quick note:

1. Daemons are the best psykers forever and always, as represented by the fact that they take no psychic tests and all their psychic weapons are just counted as normal weapons.

2. All eldar are true psykers, bonesingers more than others, even. Eldar don't craft like humans, their tools are almost exclusively psy-based (even gun triggers, etc). So yeah, that's a good idea too.



I'm not sure what you're getting at in saying that such an individual shouldn't be leading an entire Warhost given that 40k represents battles at skirmish level. It's perfectly plausible that such an individual could be responsible for leading a force 50 or so strong. The 'General' of the warhost (either a Farseer or Autarch) is obviously just fighting elsewhere, off table.


That works for me. SM get force commanders, or librarians. Orks get meks, Tyranids get Primes, daemons get heralds. I vote Exarch HQs. Obviously this is a brilliant idea that has never been done before. :D

Shamana
30-09-2011, 01:05
I think you're comparing apples and oranges. And it wouldn't be a case of upping the standard. The standard would still be 2 - for a regular Farseer. Upping a regular Farseer to 3 would cost around 50 extra points (based on current pricing) which is a fair chunk.

SM psykers tend to be strong combatants with powerful offensive powers. A Farseer fulfills a completely different role and is there primarily to enhance the units around him. As I pointed out, a Farseer Ancient would be prohibitively expensive in smaller games. If the base cost is 90-100pts you're looking at around 120pts for 4 psychic powers + another 20 for Spirit Stones which is close to 250pts for a single HQ.

If it's the Mastery Level itself that bothers you then I have no issue with it simply allowing the Farseer to cast the psychic power as it does now - no increase in Mastery Level.

We saw DE HQ receive some unprecedented stat increases in their recent codex so I don't think it's out of the question that their Craftworld counterparts might receive a similar boost to psychic abilities.


And that's one of the things I didn't particularly like in the DE codex, especially considering their HQs were already pretty decent in the asskicking department. But seriously, a 2nd level farseer with spirit stones being able to cast 3 powers per turn is already pretty decent imo. Consider there is only one other army that can do something like that (at the cost of iirc 200 points for a termy-armored libby), I consider it quite acceptable if an eldar ancient seer with 3++ cost around 170-200 (for the same toughness, and with worse combat abilities).

BTW, considering the price for psychic powers in the last few codices - at least the imperial ones - I'd prefer if farseers got a few powers either free or quite cheap, perhaps one per each mastery level. Of course, the power cost would be included in the price. Yet considering how much GK libbies pay for their extra powers, having eldar powers cost 20-30 points apiece seems a bit excessive.

As for neophyte psykers leading game-level forces, technically by the same measure a mere Commissar should be a sufficient HQ choice for an IG regiment. I would much rather sprinkle a few psykers across the force and have it be led by a farseer, autarch, or a similar exalted and heroic figure. It just feels, well, proper in light of other armies being led by SM captains, Chaos Lords, or ork Warbosses.

@ Apathyman: no, as far as I know most eldar are not true psykers. They have significant psychic potential, but very few actually strive to develop and use it in what is normally understood as "psychic powers".

My theory is that, for example, the regular human is at psychic level Rho. Basically, that's the null. An average, untrained eldar would probably be around the Kappa level - enough to be able to use devices that are psychically attuned or maybe subconsciously have minor "quirks", such as having a very good intuition or a really good (or bad) luck. Actual divination, healing or damaging psychic powers, telepathy and so on are the province of "true" seers", and actually pretty few eldar go on this path.

Drakeus
30-09-2011, 01:52
Don't You think guys that the only thing our Psykers need is simply power piercing through hoods, stupid wolftail talismans and such?

And, as I have chewed through Path of the Warrior (twice, very good book) Seers are not combatants - their powers are, again, supportive and I agree with some of You that they should have more powers than pesky humans who know only how to release bolts of lightning (showing off, this is! - Yoda) or send some lances of blood (meh).
It would be cool to send to combat an Eldar, who is a couple thousand years old and saw many, many things. Not to mention that he would have some superior psychic powers to field (many of them, though).

And, what is my wish, I would like to see a real Warseer - another step on the path of witch (more war-like path).

TheLaughingGod
30-09-2011, 03:41
Its pretty ridiculous to say Eldar dont have destructive powers. Eldar had Mind War, Destructor and Eldritch Storm when Marines got Smite.

Go back further and you'll see S8WS8 witchblade (no saves period) wielding Farseers at mastery 4 with a ton of attacks as well as executioner which allowed you to use your melee attacks as ranged attacks. And runic powers couldn't inflict perils. And they had unmodifiable saves in a time when almost no one did. So really, in keeping with this edition, Eldar psykers should own face

Spell_of_Destruction
30-09-2011, 04:08
As per previous posts though, Eldar psychic powers have never had the same brute force as those of other races. Yes, they have always had some offensive powers but they were never as destructive as the powers available to Librarians and Chaos Sorcerers. The reasons for this have already been discussed.

For Eldar the 2d ed psychic phase was really about lots of easy to cast unit buffs/hexes.

That said, the offensive powers we do have need a bit of work. I like Mind War actually (great for sniping Heavy/Special Weapons and squad sergeants) but it always seems to get pushed aside for the Fortune/Doom combo.

TheLaughingGod
30-09-2011, 04:33
As per previous posts though, Eldar psychic powers have never had the same brute force as those of other races. Yes, they have always had some offensive powers but they were never as destructive as the powers available to Librarians and Chaos Sorcerers. The reasons for this have already been discussed.

For Eldar the 2d ed psychic phase was really about lots of easy to cast unit buffs/hexes.

That said, the offensive powers we do have need a bit of work. I like Mind War actually (great for sniping Heavy/Special Weapons and squad sergeants) but it always seems to get pushed aside for the Fortune/Doom combo.

I saw those posts. I disagree with them. We're talking about someone who can flip a land raider over with a thought. Someone who can pulp another psykers brain, or even who can manifest a psychic simacrulum of themselves to rip their enemies apart in melee. They wield weapons that a mere nick of the blade to flesh incinerates the afflicted into a burned out husk, as a result of the Eldars psychic power being channeled through the blade. And lets not forget Warlocks who can unleash a roiling wave of pure destructive force, that nothing short of a full armored space marine has a chance of surviving.

Anyways, you might have a point if non-Eldar psykers didn't have support powers this time around. Its not really their schtick. Time to give them back their title as the most powerful psykers. (Daemons aren't psykers, and technically, neither are sorcerers)

Spell_of_Destruction
30-09-2011, 05:56
I saw those posts. I disagree with them. We're talking about someone who can flip a land raider over with a thought. Someone who can pulp another psykers brain, or even who can manifest a psychic simacrulum of themselves to rip their enemies apart in melee. They wield weapons that a mere nick of the blade to flesh incinerates the afflicted into a burned out husk, as a result of the Eldars psychic power being channeled through the blade. And lets not forget Warlocks who can unleash a roiling wave of pure destructive force, that nothing short of a full armored space marine has a chance of surviving.

Yes, but they can already do those things. If you have a copy of Dark Millenium to hand you should read it if you are not yet familiar with it. It has a very good description of how Eldar psychic powers work and I haven't seen anything to date which refutes this explanation.

I like the fact that our powers are distinctive and we still have the best buffs in the game IMO.

I think that Eldritch Storm could do with a bit of improvement and a bit more character at that. It would be fun if we could start dropping enemy tanks on their own comrades! I think that GW had a bit of difficulty distinguishing offensive psychic powers from shooting weapons in the days of 3rd and 4th ed but there has been a lot of improvement in this area.

Servo11
30-09-2011, 07:11
I find it funny that everyone says the problem with Shurikin Catapults is their low range, but no one has suggested any kind of decreases to balance increasing their range.

If you want 24", then make them Rapid Fire. A 12" Assault 2 weapon is supposedly justified by it being a short-burst/high-rate weapon like a Tommy Gun. I know the argument would probably be "Eldar are a fast army, and should fire on the move". Rapid Fire weapons can still move and fire twice, then when they are sitting on an objective or supporting the Aspects (as they should), they can fire once at 24".

Is there anybody who wants to bring up "then you can't fire and assault in the same turn!"? With Guardians? Ha!

Make DA Catapults 24" Assault 2.

Does this make them the same stats as Bolters and Storm Bolters? Yes... if you keep them at S4. Anyone else think it is weird that a sliver of metal causes as much damage as an exploding missile the size of a Twinkie? A hyper-accelerated shuriken could justify an AP of 5 (or lower) maybe, but S4 seems excessive.

Oh well, let the flaming begin.

N3p3nth3
30-09-2011, 07:47
I find it funny that everyone says the problem with Shurikin Catapults is their low range, but no one has suggested any kind of decreases to balance increasing their range.

If you look back, raising the price of the guardians has been suggested, and I at least find that to be the best solution. Eldar bodies shouldn't be (too) cheap.

fidesratioque
30-09-2011, 08:35
Guardians should cost 12 points and be as good as Dire Avengers now and Dire Avengers should cost 16 points like other aspect warriors and be better than they are now.

Catt
30-09-2011, 08:45
What I would like to see is the Harlequins being expanded back to what they used to be originally.

In Warhammher 40K: Compendium they had a seperate army list. I'm not suggesting that should necessarily happen but I'd love to see a return to a more structured force - avatars, high avatars, warlocks, high warlocks, mimes, etc. I'd certainly love to see the reintroduction of Solitaires. Having them more like allies than another army unit choice.

I don't know much about the current edition and how Harlequins now work in terms of holofields and dominofields, psychic powers etc but I would love to see the Laughing God on the battlefield in some way. Not as an avatar but as a pervasive force.

A Harlequin troup could purchase an upgrade called something like Favoured of the Trickster where the Laughing God has taken a special interest in events and subtlely manipulates the battlefield in favour of the troope.

This could be represented by enemies getting negative modifiers to attacking the troope or saves against pyschic powers targetting them. Maybe have a random table attackers must roll on:

uh-oh the Trygon rolled a double 1 when assaulting the Shadowseer... it appears someone has mysteriously tied its shoelaces together. Place the Trygon prone to represent it faceplanting into the dirt and end its action or Marneus Calgar's powerarmour has mysteriously filled up with custard.

Something like that :D

Doesn't have to be powerful but just a bit irritating.

Spell_of_Destruction
30-09-2011, 09:00
I find it funny that everyone says the problem with Shurikin Catapults is their low range, but no one has suggested any kind of decreases to balance increasing their range.

Probably because a lot of other armies have been getting boosts to their basic weapons without having to pay more. See Ork Shoota Boyz, Dark Eldar Warrios and Grey Knights/henchmen with stormbolters.


Does this make them the same stats as Bolters and Storm Bolters? Yes... if you keep them at S4. Anyone else think it is weird that a sliver of metal causes as much damage as an exploding missile the size of a Twinkie? A hyper-accelerated shuriken could justify an AP of 5 (or lower) maybe, but S4 seems excessive.

What would making them S3 achieve balance wise? Just give them lasblasters if you're going to take that route.

Also, there's a fatal flaw in your analysis of the shuriken catapult versus a bolter. Yes, it would seem weird if a single shuriken shard caused the same damage as a single round of bolter ammunition. It doesn't - shuriken catapults have a very high rate of fire, firing hundreds of shurikens a second. If you think they just fire out metal shards in a manner similar to a conventional modern weapon, you haven't really grasped the concept. They are incredibly advanced weapons which other races are unable to replicate.


Guardians should cost 12 points and be as good as Dire Avengers now and Dire Avengers should cost 16 points like other aspect warriors and be better than they are now.

Please don't take offence, but the "Eldar should be more elite" discussion has been done to death - it's moot but the fact is that it's never going to happen. Whoever does the codex is not going to suddenly boost are stats beyond Dark Eldar levels.

I expect Guardians to stay more or less the same stat wise. A 4+ save is plausible but I expect that we'll get an improved shuriken catapult and not much else other than a few pricing tweaks.

______________________________

Catt
30-09-2011, 09:21
What would making them S3 achieve balance wise? Just give them lasblasters if you're going to take that route.

Also, there's a fatal flaw in your analysis of the shuriken catapult versus a bolter. Yes, it would seem weird if a single shuriken shard caused the same damage as a single round of bolter ammunition. It doesn't - shuriken catapults have a very high rate of fire, firing hundreds of shurikens a second. If you think they just fire out metal shards in a manner similar to a conventional modern weapon, you haven't really grasped the concept. They are incredibly advanced weapons which other races are unable to replicate.


Indeed. They are metal discs with an edge one molecular thick and encased in a field of plasma aren't they? Sounds strength 4 to me!

As far as organic subjects are concerned a slicing round will be as damaging as an explosive round but just in a different way.

Sarevok
30-09-2011, 09:26
Go back further and you'll see S8WS8

Farseers were WS7, S8. Marine Chief Libbys got WS7 S9.


witchblade (no saves period)

Only against Daemons. Same as any force weapon.


mastery 4

which anyone could get


ton of attacks

3


And runic powers couldn't inflict perils.

did perils even exist back then?


And they had unmodifiable saves in a time when almost no one did.

I dont think you even played 2nd edition. Displacer fields? Everyone could take them.

Drakeus
30-09-2011, 09:38
Assault 3 ShuriCats x10 + Assault 3 ShuriCan would be great, especially deployed from Wave Serpent ;)

Catt
30-09-2011, 09:52
Farseers were WS7, S8. Marine Chief Libbys got WS7 S9.



Only against Daemons. Same as any force weapon.



which anyone could get



3



did perils even exist back then?



I dont think you even played 2nd edition. Displacer fields? Everyone could take them.


Perils didn't exist in 2nd Ed. Farseers were indeed WS 7 BS7. Eldrad was 6&6 but the Staff of Ulthamar doubled strength in combat and additionally added plus one for each stored force card. Nasty.

Not just displacer fields (3+) - refractor (5+), conversion (4+) and power (2+)

I can't remember however whether Eldar Farseers/Warlocks could take a defense field in addition to their 4+ rune armour. I generally went the conversion field route rather than displacer because the 1D3 inch random scatter could cause you problems.

jt.glass
30-09-2011, 11:23
I'd also like to see Guardian Defenders included in a new Troops choice called a "Guardian Warhost". This would be similar to an I.G. platoon and would allow you to take one warwalker squadron or one heavy support platform squad for every guardian defender squad taken - all as a single Troop choice. I don't think a dying race should be be copying a Guard feature meant to represent their massive numbers, but YMMV. OTOH, I agree about moving support batteries out of HS. I'd just give them as an option to normal Guardian Defender squads.

So per X guadians in the squad you can have 2 special weapons, 2 heavy weapon platforms, or 1 support weapon platform.



Please don't take offence, but the "Eldar should be more elite" discussion has been done to death - it's moot but the fact is that it's never going to happen. Whoever does the codex is not going to suddenly boost are stats beyond Dark Eldar levels.

I expect Guardians to stay more or less the same stat wise. A 4+ save is plausible but I expect that we'll get an improved shuriken catapult and not much else other than a few pricing tweaks.Er, if they got a decent gun and a better armour save they would be more elite, even if nothing else changed.


jt.

Spell_of_Destruction
30-09-2011, 11:32
Er, if they got a decent gun and a better armour save they would be more elite, even if nothing else changed.



If you read fidesratioque's post he suggested that Guardians should cost 12pts per model. They would need more than 18" shuriken catapults and 4+ save to justify that sort of cost.

At the moment I think they need a bit of a boost just to justify their current cost.

Hoshiyami
30-09-2011, 11:41
I find it funny that everyone says the problem with Shurikin Catapults is their low range, but no one has suggested any kind of decreases to balance increasing their range.

You just have to worry about keeping balance after improving things if they are already balanced. Are shuricats? :P

Axeman1n
30-09-2011, 12:05
I want eldar to get the ability to run during the shooting phase after shooting, or move 6" instead of shooting.

jt.glass
30-09-2011, 12:13
If you read fidesratioque's post he suggested that Guardians should cost 12pts per model. They would need more than 18" shuriken catapults and 4+ save to justify that sort of cost.

At the moment I think they need a bit of a boost just to justify their current cost.Well, I was thinking 24" when I said "a decent gun", but you're right even with that 12 points a model would be excessive, and they'd need at least that much just to justify their current cost.

Still, I think there are plenty of other avenues of improvement that are plausible; I've posted several myself. GW may leav them languishing in their uselessness in the next Codex (look at poor lictors), but I think there is at least a pretty good chance that they won't.

One other idea from another thread that I liked, that I haven't seen mentioned yet, is the option of a shield generator in place of a weapon platform, giving the squad an ++ save.


jt.

Catt
30-09-2011, 12:21
One other idea from another thread that I liked, that I haven't seen mentioned yet, is the option of a shield generator in place of a weapon platform, giving the squad an ++ save.

Yes, that was in the original rumour thread that got locked.

I think it's plausible because guardians have a deployable shield in DoW.

Shamana
30-09-2011, 12:41
I find it funny that everyone says the problem with Shurikin Catapults is their low range, but no one has suggested any kind of decreases to balance increasing their range.

Because right now, they are pretty weak and cost a fair bit when you factor in the unimpressive profile of the units shooting them. This is the eldar race (supposedly about as high-tech as they come) premier infantry weapon, as well as a secondary weapon on most of their vehicles - a SM shotgun with additional AP. Remember, guardians come at 8 points per model, for a profile nearly identical to guardsmen with a sergeant around or GK warrior acolytes(except for 1 point more of initiative and fleet - not that useful given their melee capabilities). As far as basic infantry goes, 8 points is quite a lot, so it means guardians should be quite good as well. As they are not, there's no need for a nerf to "balance" any improvements. As for being strength 3, I could maybe understand it for a single shot (though S3 is a lasgun hit), but as far as I know shuriken cannons don't fire single shots but rather "short" bursts of several or dozens of mono-edged discs; "burst fire" means still more shots. A single hit might not be much, but a dozen can have some very nasty (and picturesque) consequences.

To be honest, I'd like for non-avengers catapults to at least be equal to the technological marvel that is the Shoota. Even then, Guardians as they are should probably be costed in the vicinity of what you pay for ork shoota boys - a relatively comparable unit with worse shooting, better melee and higher resilience (due to the T4). I'd much rather guardians don't become dirt cheap (they aren't as common and disposable as ork boyz, after all), so they have to be better. That's why we have the point system after all - to quantify how good a unit is.

Now, considering that warrior acolytes with storm bolters cost 7 points in the GK codex (5 with regular RF bolters), can very easily be made troops, and are still rarely taken (usually only with Space Monkey support for additional buffs), I think we can certainly make the case for guardians with 24-inch A2 shuriken catapults at their current price, but let's be modest. 18 inches is pretty decent imo, so the rest of the unit cost should be due to other wargear or rules.


Guardians should cost 12 points and be as good as Dire Avengers now and Dire Avengers should cost 16 points like other aspect warriors and be better than they are now.

Eh, I'm a little unsure if guardians should cost 25% more than, say, kabalite warriors. That implies that guardians should be 25% more effective, overall, than warriors, and I don't see how (or really, why) that should be the case. 8-10 points is where they should be imo. More than that I can only see if both their gun, their BS, and their armor improved - i.e. they become something like carapace-armor vets with bolters.


I want eldar to get the ability to run during the shooting phase after shooting, or move 6" instead of shooting.

After both the IG and Tyrannid codexes have an example, I could see it, but a full run move after shooting strikes me as a bit excessive. How about shooting and running 1d3, with the autarch having the ability to make it a full 1d6?

fidesratioque
30-09-2011, 12:57
Please don't take offence, but the "Eldar should be more elite" discussion has been done to death - it's moot but the fact is that it's never going to happen. Whoever does the codex is not going to suddenly boost are stats beyond Dark Eldar levels.

I expect Guardians to stay more or less the same stat wise. A 4+ save is plausible but I expect that we'll get an improved shuriken catapult and not much else other than a few pricing tweaks.

______________________________

No offense taken whatsoever. But if all eldar get are a few tweaks I'll probably start a dark eldar army next. Not saying this to be petulant, but the dark eldar are closer to the 'cool factor' that I feel eldar should get in the next update. I wouldn't be content with tweaks alone.

fidesratioque
30-09-2011, 12:59
Eh, I'm a little unsure if guardians should cost 25% more than, say, kabalite warriors. That implies that guardians should be 25% more effective, overall, than warriors, and I don't see how (or really, why) that should be the case. 8-10 points is where they should be imo. More than that I can only see if both their gun, their BS, and their armor improved - i.e. they become something like carapace-armor vets with bolters.

Well, the kabalite warriors are raiders, the Guardians are part of a disciplined, organized, well supported militia. Also, the dark eldar have better regeneration technology than the eldar, so dying isn't as big of a deal. If someone vaporizes you your kabalite warrior friends can grab your thumb and grow your body back, and then do an image copy of your brain. As far as I know if the same happens to a Craftworld Guardian, the most be can hope for is to become a wraithguard. :) In short, there are reasons why Guardians would be better equipped and more deadly.

bobafett_h
30-09-2011, 14:00
The problem with doing wish lists for new Codexes in a new edition is that we can really only base our wishes on the current edition rules. Without knowing the changes to the core rules as a whole, some of the things in the current Codex may become significantly better anyway. In the case of Eldar though, that is quite unlikely due to how old the Codex is, and we have already seen what the more recent (supposedly designed with 6th Ed in mind) army books are like...

Here is a big list of most of the changes I would like to see to the Eldar in 6th edition:

These are all of the current units in the Codex with comments about each one that I can think of...
Avatar
- Inspiring should be changed so that it grants Furious Charge in addition to Fearless
- He should never need more than a 3+ to hit in combat
- Possibly boost his Strength to 7
Farseer
- Could do with a couple more Psychic Powers
- Current powers need their rules, point costs and ranges adjusted
- Add to Runes Of Witnessing that Perils Of The Warp only occurs if three 1s or two 6s are rolled
Warlocks
- Witchblades and Singing Spears should still wound on 2+, but also ignore armour saves OR count as a Force Weapon that doesn't ignore armour
- Some Farseer powers (such as Guide) could become Warlock powers to help units they are with
Autarch
- The Master Strategist rule should include that only a 5+ is required to Seize The Initiative
Dire Avengers
- Direswords should always cause Instant Death for each wound suffered
- Should come with Plasma grenades as standard
Howling Banshees
- War Shout should not require a Morale test in order to work
- The Triskele probably needs its Strength increased to 4
Fire Dragons
- Fusion Gun could be lowered to S7
- Crack Shot should apply to the whole squad, not just the Exarch
Striking Scorpions
- Their base Strength should be 4 as standard
- Scorpion Chainswords should allow hits to be re-rolled instead of granting +1S
Dark Reapers
- They should count as being Relentless
- Crack Shot should apply to the whole squad, not just the Exarch
Swooping Hawks
- Wings should let them move 12 inch in the movement phase OR assault phase each turn and make one 6 inch move on the turn that they Deep Strike
- Sustained Assault could be brought back, provided that they get decent combat weapons
War Spiders
- Death Spinners could have two fire modes. 18" Assault 2 OR Template
- Only a roll of two 1s causes a model to die when making a second warp jump
- Surprise Assault should be changed so it grants the Infiltrate rule
Shining Spears
- Laser Lance could possibly get 2D6 armour vs vehicles
Rangers/Pathfinders
- Probably just need their point costs adjusted
Guardians
- Anti-grav platforms optional for Defenders, but can take 1 per 10 models
- Storm Guardians can take 1 special weapon per 5 models
- Squad of either variety can be upgraded with Plasma grenades
Guardian Jetbikes
- Probably just need their point costs adjusted
Vypers
- BS4! At least for the main weapon
Falcon
- BS4! At least for the main turret
- Pulse Laser should be Strength 9
Fire Prism
- Increase front armour to 13 or come with Holo-fields as standard
- Prism cannon should NEVER scatter
War Walkers
- An option to Deep Strike could be nice
Support Weapons
- The ability to fire at separate targets would be great plus more bonuses for combined fire
Wave Serpent
- A Wave Serpent only upgrade that acts like an assault ramp would be amazing
Wraithguard
- Extend Wraithcannon range to 18 inches
- Change their save to a 4+ invulnerable save only (like what Farseers and Warlocks have)
- Allow units of 5 or more to be taken as Troops if led by a Spiritseer
- Spiritseer grants Fleet to the entire unit
Wraithlord
- Change their save to a 4+ invulnerable save only (like what Farseers and Warlocks have)
- Drastically reduce the cost of twin-linked weapon options
Harlequins
- A Harlequin Special character that lets them be taken as Troops choices
- Let them be mounted on Jetbikes
Eldrad
- Adjust his points cost and with access to a better range of powers he will be awesome
Prince Yriel
- His Master Strategist rule should be 2+ rather than the normal 1+ to reserves rolls
- The Spear of Twilight should be able to hit all models along a path in a straight line
- Perhaps give him Preferred Enemy (at least againts Nids)
Phoenix Lords
- Fix their point costs!
- Disciples rule lets one model from their Aspect be upgraded to an Exarch for free

Standard weaponry needs some work too...
Bright Lances
- Increase to S9
Scatter Lasers
- Change to Heavy D3+3
Shuriken Catapults
- 18 inch range minimum for both variants, but 24 would be even better
- Standard ones become Rapid Fire, Avenger Catapults remain Assault 2
Starcannons
- Increase to S7
Eldar Missile Launcher
- Increase plasma missile to S5

These are a few units I'd like to see introduced or brought back...
Bonsingers
- Similar stats to a Warlock, and can join Warlock squads
- Ability to repair Immobilised vehicles
- Grant Feel No Pain or improve the invulnerable save of any wraitbone unit (models wearing Rune Armour or Wraithlords/Wraithguard) within 6"
Iyanna Arienal, Nuadhu Fireheart, and more characters for other Craftworlds
- Could be used to grant options for different Craftworld themed lists
Exodites
- Dragon Riders, and perhaps scout infantry
Harlequin Solitaire
- Just because

In terms of new models I would like to see...
Plastic Wraithguard!
New Jetbike kits that have the parts for upgrading to Shining Spears.
New Vyper sculpt or at least a new kit with all of the weapons they can take
Gaurdian boxes that provide bits for making Defenders or Storm Guardians with weapon options
New Avatar that is much bigger, easier to pose and has sword and spear
Warlocks, Farseers and Harlequins on Jetbikes
New Warp Spider and Swooping Hawk models
Remainder of the Aspects can be remade in Finecast or otherwise left alone
Plastic super-heavy such as a Scorpion or Warp Hunter

Finally, these are some of the changes I would like to see to 6th edition in general...
Average cover save dropped from 4+ to 5+
Glance modifier on vehicle damage table changed to -1 instead of -2
AP1 weapons get to re-roll failed wounds, or force successful invulnerable saves to be re-rolled
ALL chain weapons (Chainswords/axes/fists/etc.) are Rending
Only roll 1D6 scatter for Deep Striking, or allow units to assault in the turn they arrive
Poison weapons to not affect all models in the same way
Standard flyer and super-heavy rules
Some of the Spearhead/Apocalypse rules incorporated into main rulebook

Drakeus
30-09-2011, 14:27
Hit and run tactics seem very plausible.
Old Crystal Targetting Matrix for Vehicles (upgrade? or basis?), all units gaining the same ability (but for example in the assault phase).

Guardians move 6" -> dakka dakka dakka dakka -> 1d6 assault move behind LOS blocker.

Pure awesomeness imho.


Vyper Jetbikes being simply jetbikes with W2...3+ save...

Me gusta!

titilititi
30-09-2011, 17:46
That's exactly what I was saying! If you modify the"fleet or foot" rule so that eldar units which have a save worse than 3+ can move 1d6 after the shooting phase (like the warp spiders, who have a 3+ save...) you don't have to fix the shuricat in a non eldar way (enabling an unit to stay immovable).

I really hope the 6th Edition's core rules will enable units that have the "fleet or foot" rule to charge directly after having disembarqued, because it would mean a lot of difference between Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions.

I also want to change the dark reapers missile launcher to a dark reapers shuricanon (then Maugan Ra's Maugetar, and even their name, would become logical...), still specialized with anti-spam (I don't know, maybe assault1/heavy2, or simply pining)

Finally, I would make Swooping Hawks an assault unit, replacing their laser gun I don't like at all with two simple assault weapons ( so it would be some kind of equivalent of the assault marines, with a lower strenght but a better anti-tank ability)

Shamana
30-09-2011, 18:26
I also want to change the dark reapers missile launcher to a dark reapers shuricanon (then Maugan Ra's Maugetar, and even their name, would become logical...), still specialized with anti-spam (I don't know, maybe assault1/heavy2, or simply pining)

I was initially in favor of giving reapers a choice between several weapons - their "aspect" is killing from afar, so any of the eldar big guns should be ok. Yes, that would make them a bit like devastators. No, I don't think that would break the game. However, the idea of giving them modified EMLs (krak, plasma and "cluster" missiles working like their current guns) is imo good enough and fairly simple. Simplicity is good.


Finally, I would make Swooping Hawks an assault unit, replacing their laser gun I don't like at all with two simple assault weapons ( so it would be some kind of equivalent of the assault marines, with a lower strenght but a better anti-tank ability)

I'd rather spiders get some assault options, and hawks get more disruption options (pinning guns, haywire launchers, etc).

titilititi
30-09-2011, 19:00
In my dreams Warp Spiders' weapon would get back in a way to what it was 2nd Edition : a fire template (ok, no D6 wounds like it was at that time...) strenght 6, or strenght 5 ; but no AP, or AP 6.
But it wouldn't change their role on the battlefield, whereas everybody here is ok to admit we don't really know what to do with Swooping Hawks...

Baaltor
30-09-2011, 19:03
Probably because a lot of other armies have been getting boosts to their basic weapons without having to pay more. See Ork Shoota Boyz, Dark Eldar Warrios and Grey Knights/henchmen with stormbolters.



What would making them S3 achieve balance wise? Just give them lasblasters if you're going to take that route.

Also, there's a fatal flaw in your analysis of the shuriken catapult versus a bolter. Yes, it would seem weird if a single shuriken shard caused the same damage as a single round of bolter ammunition. It doesn't - shuriken catapults have a very high rate of fire, firing hundreds of shurikens a second. If you think they just fire out metal shards in a manner similar to a conventional modern weapon, you haven't really grasped the concept. They are incredibly advanced weapons which other races are unable to replicate.



Please don't take offence, but the "Eldar should be more elite" discussion has been done to death - it's moot but the fact is that it's never going to happen. Whoever does the codex is not going to suddenly boost are stats beyond Dark Eldar levels.

I expect Guardians to stay more or less the same stat wise. A 4+ save is plausible but I expect that we'll get an improved shuriken catapult and not much else other than a few pricing tweaks.

______________________________



The thing with making Eldar more elite is that they're already outrageously elite. They're the equivalents to the IG, but they're got the skills of space marines, that's pretty frickin' cool! I think most of the troops are actually pretty much where they should be in terms of stats, the HQs are a bit lacking in some areas, but the main thing is they cost too many points.

I don't quite understand why everyone's so opposed to guardians being cheap cannon-fodder. Many say that their lack of armour is silly because it would cause many casualties. The fact is the fluff says that they have a vastly super human ability to recover from injury, almost as if they were engineered* to be a warrior race. :)

If Guardians were priced at 6 points, had stealth and a lasgun I think that'd be good. All GW needs to do is give them options to switch to a boltgun, an option for a A2 18" weapon, and an A3 12" catapult, and call it a day.

The thing is that they may be a dying race, but they still have great numbers for their guardians. The guardians are conscripts used to bolster their army and they cost a whole lot more than conscripts, and aren't at risk from dying from petty injuries due to their engineering and technology/magic.

P.S: I totally agree with Spell_of_Destruction's view on eldar magic. I also really loved that Idea a while back suggesting groups of guardians who're engineers or medics, that sounds really cool and logical.

*The fluff says that it's a blessing from their healing goddess, but I've always believed it to be just Genetic engineering.

Servo11
30-09-2011, 20:35
Probably because a lot of other armies have been getting boosts to their basic weapons without having to pay more. See Ork Shoota Boyz, Dark Eldar Warrios and Grey Knights/henchmen with stormbolters.

It is a fair point you make, but I never mentioned point cost. Sure, you could make a weapon appropriately costed by raising the points, but it does not mean they are balanced or fair. You could raise Bolters to S6, AP2 weapons; even raising the cost would not make that a very fair standard weapon for a Troop choice.


What would making them S3 achieve balance wise? Just give them lasblasters if you're going to take that route.

Lasblasters are S3, AP5, 24", Assault 2. Not at all what I was saying, but not bad. Would you sacrifice a point in Strength for double the range?

My suggestion was Rapid Fire with a possibility of S3 to balance. Keep is at S4, AP5 or tweak it to S3, AP4. Whatever is done, Rapid Fire seems to fit the Guardian role better.


Also, there's a fatal flaw in your analysis of the shuriken catapult versus a bolter. Yes, it would seem weird if a single shuriken shard caused the same damage as a single round of bolter ammunition. It doesn't - shuriken catapults have a very high rate of fire, firing hundreds of shurikens a second. If you think they just fire out metal shards in a manner similar to a conventional modern weapon, you haven't really grasped the concept. They are incredibly advanced weapons which other races are unable to replicate.


A "fatal flaw"? Really? Did you perform the verbal equivalent of a finishing move on me with your logic reasoned argument biased opinion?

I understand the tech behind Eldar weaponry, I understand the sacrifices made in plausibility to keep the game balanced, and I understand the psychology behind making condescending statements when a reasoned argument escapes you at the moment. I will just chalk it up to the fact that you love your Eldar, and you do not want to see them lose anything.

Sarevok
30-09-2011, 20:51
Armies are defined by what they don't do well as well as what they do.
So what shouldn't Eldar be that good at?

Dont just say high points cost meaning low numbers.

Low numbers wasn't really Eldar's thing at least not compared to marines.

Eldar are all about synergy between different units and using them to complement each other. If you only have a few units on the table all those tactics go out the window and its down to the individual power.

fidesratioque
30-09-2011, 21:32
Um... how about universal T3 as a weakness? Heh.

Vegeta365
30-09-2011, 21:57
With regards to the bolter vs shuriken catapult debate. Not that they have to, but the shuriken catapult was slightly better than the bolter in 2nd edition. It had a 24" range then too. Having it as a 12" gun is ridiculous as has been stated, but I am unconvinced they will do anything to it other than go back to having just the one kind of catapult and giving it the dire avengers catapult stats of 18". It isn't my favourite, but it is realistic. They will not make as drastic a change as doubling it's range even though it had that range before.

GW got it right with the Dark Eldar. The kabalite warriors have a gun that in essence is very equal to the bolter. Better against higher toughness creatures and worse against lower toughness creatures but the same in all other aspects. It was a great idea as it makes the guns directly comparable with slightly different rules to give two races a difference! Unfortunately I don't believe we will see this with the Eldar codex and it is a shame.

With the gun staying the same but going up to 18" range and all else staying the same with gaurdians, they would still need to drop to 6/7pts. 6 may seem to cheap, but they still would not be better than ork boys imo.

Shamana
30-09-2011, 22:04
Armies are defined by what they don't do well as well as what they do.
So what shouldn't Eldar be that good at?

Ok:

Eldar are not versatile. A CSM, Grey hunter, heck, even tactical space marine squad will likely be quite capable of attacking infantry (bolters + special weapons such as flamers/plasma), tanks (special weapons, heavy weapons and krak grenades) and is generally decent in CC (4s all around, 3+ armor). No eldar unit can do that.

Eldar are (generally) frail: T3 only goes so far, especially as few units in the codex have 3+ save and almost no have better. Note that eldar cost nearly as much as marines (occasionally more) and can't count on numbers like orks, nids or IG. You say eldar don't have low numbers - they do. They have Marine numbers, but not the marine model resilience.

Overall, eldar should be mobile, with good offense, but relatively frail for their points. I expect their units to be hardier than DE, but more expensive.

"I don't quite understand why everyone's so opposed to guardians being cheap cannon-fodder. Many say that their lack of armour is silly because it would cause many casualties. The fact is the fluff says that they have a vastly super human ability to recover from injury, almost as if they were engineered* to be a warrior race. "

Wait, what? Orks and space marines are the incredibly resilient and easy to recover from injury, but I've never heard it used about eldar.

So why shouldn't eldar guardians be cannon fodder - well, there are several reasons. First, there aren't that many eldar and the eldar themselves are quite aware of that. Maiden worlds lie empty or are claimed by the imperium because there are not enough eldar to populate them. Some of the largest craftworlds - Ulthwe and Iyanden - lie empty. Eldar are outnumbered by rival races thousand or million to one. They just don't have the numbers to play mass tactics.

Second, cannon fodder involves dying. Most races don't like to die, but eldar REALLY fear it. At best, their soul is captured and has to be returned to the craftworld... if not it can lie there, imprisoned, for all eternity. If it is returned, it goes to the craftworld and is safe as long as the craftworld is. If there's no soulstone, or the wrong guys get it, the eldar go straight to an eternity of torments. When an eldar is killed and their stone is broken, they go straight to hell, and there's nothing that can keep them safe or bring them back - and eldar know it. That's why their commanders and seers consider eldar life to be one of the most important considerations in every campaign - and why they are so keen on using other people to do their dirty work.

Third, guardians are effectively reservists. Those are the guys who, when the war is over, will go back to other vital jobs - making ships, weapons, food, raising kids, etc. Aspect warriors go on their path to protect the Eldar people - and guardians are those same people.

BDA
30-09-2011, 22:45
i would love to see Dark Reapers back to the good old 2ed days with Missile launchers and range finders (no cover save from moving fast). don't think you would have to increase the points either if you compare them to a marine devastator with missile launcher =)

RandomThoughts
30-09-2011, 23:40
All right, my turn:

Guardians with 24" Shuricats and 4+ armor, sized 5-10 (no more horde units of 10+ models please!), probably priced around 8-10 points per model.

Dire Avengers with 18" A3 Shuricats - come on, they are supposed to be actual frontline troops, compared to Guardians who stick further back, what do they need higher range for?
Also, remove Bladestorm as it is right now.

12-16 point Hawks with Grenade Launchers as standard weapon (Krak, Plasma and Haywire) - possibly combo weapons with both the Grenade Launcher and a regular 36" Sniperrifle (relentless, so move and fire). Hit and Run and extra move at end of turn like spiders / Jetbikes.

Speaking of Jetbikes, Hit & Run and Scout for all jetbikes (why should Ork "Jetbikes" be superior to eldar ones???). Hell, if I got my say, all Eldar (or just all units from all races) would get 1D6" hit and run from melee rules.

Reaper with multiple ammo types - probably Eldar Missile Launcher as base with current Reaper Launcher stats as additional ammo type.

Warp Spiders with flamer templates like they used to - in exchange a stat nerf, probably Ss AP4, plus the Night Spinner rules.

Rangers/Pathfinders: Get to ignore cover, can snipe (rumored to be in 6th core rules anyway)

Scorpions with the option to enter play from any piece of terrain - see Genestealers for inspiration. Also, bring back the haywire grenades we used to have.

Banshees buffed so that they can take on a Marine unit of similar point cost without Farseer Support and reliably win - what good is a unit specialized to work against a very narrow group or targets, if it still looses to this narrow target group? I'd suggest: Furious Charge, automatic War Cry, Eldar Power weapons cut right through invulnerable saves (that's where the superior technology thing comes in, right...)
Add in some sort of assault ramp for Serpents and they are finally worth their points.

Wraithlords actually work surprisingly fine for me - just get rid of Wraithsight. And perhaps add a Stormshield-option. Oh, and no more twin linked crap.

16 point Jetbikes.

Some (any) option for Warlocks to cut through armor - either upgraded Witchblades or an extra Warlock Power that gives the whole unit it's attached to ignore armor saves rules.

Wraithguard as monstrous creatures.

List goes on. but I think those are the most important for me.

Solonor
30-09-2011, 23:53
Actually i also thought about the idea of giving Wraithguard the monstrous creature rule, would make them quite interesting.

i dont agree about getting rid of wraithsight, i would just add a benefitial rule to it, since it represents a sort of witch sight capable of viewing both aspects of the material and immaterial universe they have to stay focused, and can be distracted, but since they probably see all things in a translucid, transparent state they reduce enemy cover saves by one.

Inquisitor Kallus
30-09-2011, 23:57
Wraithguard as monstrous creatures? They're Terminator sized

Solonor
01-10-2011, 00:22
Wraithguard as monstrous creatures? They're Terminator sized

Yes i know but even the current GW Avatar model isnt that monstrous compared to other monstrous creatures :p

But its a fair point :)

Hoshiyami
01-10-2011, 01:01
Banshees buffed so that they can take on a Marine unit of similar point cost without Farseer Support and reliably win - what good is a unit specialized to work against a very narrow group or targets, if it still looses to this narrow target group? I'd suggest: Furious Charge, automatic War Cry, Eldar Power weapons cut right through invulnerable saves (that's where the superior technology thing comes in, right...)

Please, no "rule that surpasses the rule", invulnerable save are meant to be a save that cannot be ignored (yes, I do hate warschytes), otherwise someday we might see a new invulnerable save 'that cannot be ignored by weapons that ignore invulnerable saves' and so on.

Otherwise, I more or less agree. Just suggest making the warp spiders template weapon strength a bit more original using initiative instead of thoughness to wound (keeping some reminiscence with it original mechanics), give it a "strength" value not too high and there you are.

TheLaughingGod
01-10-2011, 01:10
Please, no "rule that surpasses the rule", invulnerable save are meant to be a save that cannot be ignored (yes, I do hate warschytes), otherwise someday we might see a new invulnerable save 'that cannot be ignored by weapons that ignore invulnerable saves' and so on.

Otherwise, I more or less agree. Just suggest making the warp spiders template weapon strength a bit more original using initiative instead of thoughness to wound (keeping some reminiscence with it original mechanics), give it a "strength" value not too high and there you are.

every rule is a rule that surpasses another rule. Something that ignores all saves should be something very powerful (hexrifle, shattershard)

Sildani
01-10-2011, 01:12
As I put in my post, probably Str 5 would be all right. It'd reduce effectiveness against vehicles, but it'd be very efficient against infantry.

Spell_of_Destruction
01-10-2011, 04:02
I understand the tech behind Eldar weaponry, I understand the sacrifices made in plausibility to keep the game balanced, and I understand the psychology behind making condescending statements when a reasoned argument escapes you at the moment. I will just chalk it up to the fact that you love your Eldar, and you do not want to see them lose anything.

Fair enough, but you still haven't clearly explained your rationale behind potentially reducing the Strength to 3. Strength 3 is pretty worthless for a basic weapon, AP4 is too situational to balance properly (great against other Eldar and Tau, useless against MEQs). You raised the possibility of S3 but didn't really justify it.

You're a bit defensive - cheer up dude! You don't need to take everything said on a messageboard too seriously. :)

TheLaughingGod
01-10-2011, 06:42
In response to Shuriken Catapult "balance" and the bizarre clamoring for "Lasblasters"

A) We live in a world where BS3 R30 S5 AP5 Rapid Fire guns exist on basic troops with 4+ armor.

B) We live in a world where BS4 R24 S4 AP5 Assault 2 guns exist on basic troops with force weapons and 3+ armor AND psychic powers.

C) The Eldar are not going to have a weapon with a bolter statline simply because the bolter statline is pretty much going to be an imperial weapon for the next couple editions at least.

D) Human Henchmen with Stormbolters cost 1 point LESS than Guardians currently do and are only -1 Initiative stat-wise while having a vastly superior weapon.


In conclusion, Range 18 or even 24 S4 Shuricats are more than reasonable on a T3 model with 5+ armor.

Strength 3 weapons on Guardians with 72" range would still be godawful and no one would take them.

sidcom
01-10-2011, 10:36
I wonder how Eldar skimmers will look like next edition to outclass those ugly Vendetass (which should be like 1000 times less advanced than Eldar skimmers, right?). I have no idea how they will do that without making them totally imba, but I´m not the one who made this mess in first place:evilgrin:

Inquisitor Kallus
01-10-2011, 20:19
I wonder how Eldar skimmers will look like next edition to outclass those ugly Vendetass (which should be like 1000 times less advanced than Eldar skimmers, right?). I have no idea how they will do that without making them totally imba, but I´m not the one who made this mess in first place:evilgrin:

I would hope they get VTOL(skimmer) and Flyer rules. To be honest we really need to see how 6th ed sits before going into rules too much as im sure itll be a fairly big (and decent) shake up.

Charistoph
01-10-2011, 20:26
There are Unique Rules and Wargear that could be added to the Eldar vehicles to represent them, ala the Dark Eldar Sails, and not rely on the BRB.

But yes, knowing how the rule setup will be is important.

Spell_of_Destruction
02-10-2011, 02:03
I wonder how Eldar skimmers will look like next edition to outclass those ugly Vendetass (which should be like 1000 times less advanced than Eldar skimmers, right?). I have no idea how they will do that without making them totally imba, but I´m not the one who made this mess in first place:evilgrin:

The problem with the Vendetta is that the Skimmer rules make it considerably more mobile than it ought to be. It's kinda' ridiculous that this hulking, hovering gunship moves in exactly the same manner as a sleek and nimble Eldar grav tank. Those are the limitations of the current rule-set though.

Gorbad Ironclaw
02-10-2011, 07:35
I don't quite understand why everyone's so opposed to guardians being cheap cannon-fodder.

Because it goes directly against the defining background of the Eldar race. That they are a dying race, struggling to hold on in a hostile galaxy and that every single life is precious. Contrasted with pretty much every other race where life is cheap and just another resource to be exploited. Eldar's do not have that, at all. That is why there should be no cannon-fodder at all in the eldar book.

That you then equip the cannon-fodder troops in the one army that shouldn't have any with the worst basic weapon while at the same time telling us that there technology is super advanced just makes this even worse.

In many ways I think the best way to approach a new Eldar codex would actually be to sit down and not look at the current rules at all, but sit down some strong design goals for each unit and then write completely new rules for them based on that.

For instance. Guardians are the non-standing forces that are used to provide fire-support and hold the line for the aspects. Along with what else we know about Eldar, such as them being a dying race, highly advanced, etc. So you should have a small-ish (I'm think 10 max) mobile (assault weaponry) fire-support unit with good equipment. Personally I think it would be quite interesting if their focus was more on disrupting and suppressing the enemy but that's depending on having something like pinning actually work in the next edition (or some other mechanic to suppress people). But it could be a neat way of integrating Guardians with the rest of the army, giving them a unique hook and making Eldars faster than most others.

Necronartum
02-10-2011, 07:54
Do what they will with the rest of the codex but please...

For the love of God...

Give us light bulbs/searchlights.

Apparently, despite being around for aeons, Eldar have not yet mastered how to illuminate darkness. Nope, Edison beat them to it almost 38250 years ago. Either give us light bulbs, or give us Acute Senses please. Really frustrating in Night Fighting scenarios!!!

The Elder
02-10-2011, 09:32
Drazhar is what??

fidesratioque
02-10-2011, 09:36
Eldar would rather sacrifice an entire human planet than allow one eldar life to come to harm, so it follows that Guardians should not be 'cheap cannon fodder'. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Drakeus
02-10-2011, 12:35
It seems that we all agree that Guardians should be redone completely ;)
4+ save, I5 (Eldarish) and plasma grenades = perfect! Even for 10-11 points per model.

I long to see Black Guardians!

Inquisitor Kallus
02-10-2011, 14:20
Drazhar is what??

A light bulb

The Elder
02-10-2011, 14:23
A light bulb

pfff, the humour......

Cheers,
The Elder

Drakeus
02-10-2011, 18:20
We should be in the developing team, lads ;)

A couple of new ideas:
- Autarchs can be associated with certain Craftworlds (+ xx points per model). Benefits with:
- Ulthwe Autarch -> Guardians to Black Guardians (+1BS/WS - Storms) (affects all Guardian-based units, like Support Weapon Battery, Falcons, Wave Serpents etc.)
- Saim-Hann Autarch -> All Skimmers/Jetbikes gain Skilled Raiders special rule, Jetbikes to Kinsmen (WS4, CCW)
- Alaitoc Autarch -> Rangers are Pathfinders with no additional cost, +1 to reserve roll
- Biel-Tan Autarch -> All Aspects are either TROOPS or their basic slot, Court of the Young King
- Iyanden Autarch -> Wraithguard are TROOPS, Wraithlords are ELITES, Wraithseer unit (see Forgeworld)

What is also interesting (I read it somewhere here but...) - Phoenix Lords make their Aspects scoring (not moved to TROOPS). It would be nice to see Phoenix Lords as a squad upgrade, rather than independent HQ choice.

Baaltor
02-10-2011, 18:25
Do what they will with the rest of the codex but please...

For the love of God...

Give us light bulbs/searchlights.

Apparently, despite being around for aeons, Eldar have not yet mastered how to illuminate darkness. Nope, Edison beat them to it almost 38250 years ago. Either give us light bulbs, or give us Acute Senses please. Really frustrating in Night Fighting scenarios!!!

Their tech is too advanced and they've mastered light bulbs too well. The scatter laser is actually their flashlight, ever wonder why guard call their weapons that?

Helicon_One
02-10-2011, 18:35
First thing that needs fixing are the heavy weapon options. The Eldar shouldn't have a cheap but clearly inferior option like the shuriken cannon is now, every weapon should be an attractive choice in its own right. Changes in red

Bright Lance: Range 36", Strength 8, AP 1, Assault 1, Lance
Eldar Missile Launcher:
------fusion missile : Range 48" Strength 4, AP 1, Assault 1, Fusion
------plasma missile : Range 48" Strength 4, AP 4 Assault 1 Blast, Pinning, Ignores Cover
Scatter laser : Range 48", Strength 5, AP -, Assault 6
Shuriken cannon: Range 24", Strength 6, AP 4, Assault 4
Starcannon: Range 24", Strength 6, AP 2, Assault 3

[*Fusion - weapon always rolls 2D6 for armour penetration.]

Shamana
02-10-2011, 21:43
Eh, between a S8 ap 3 and S4 Ap 1 with 2d6 armor penetration, there are 2 anti-vehicle missiles,- and the second is a bit too unreliable for my taste; S8 is actually a little more likely to glance/penetrate than S4+d6. I think an anti-MEQ missile (i.e. S5 AP2, hvy 2/3) would be a lot more useful - then you can give EMLs to dark reapers so they are can actually be "death from afar" to everything ;) .

As for the starcannon: make it heavy 3, leave the rest as it is. Yes, so there are 2or 3 guns with the same range, big freaking deal. 80% of the guns in the GK codex are 24-inch, yet that's hardly a problem.

Drakeus
02-10-2011, 22:10
Dark Reapers are very overpriced now. Devastator marine with Missile Launcher is worth 26 points...and still performes better at tank/infantry hunting.

Spell_of_Destruction
02-10-2011, 23:00
Dark Reapers should have a way of mitigating cover to some extent. Their main problem is that the abundance of 4+ cover really negates their effectiveness. However, my guess is that cover will be toned down a little in 6th ed (that's what the rumours floating about a few months ago pointed to).

I also agree that they need to come down to 30pts or less. If the reaper launcher became Heavy 3 then I think that would just about justify their current cost.

Shamana
02-10-2011, 23:44
Dark Reapers are very overpriced now. Devastator marine with Missile Launcher is worth 26 points...and still performes better at tank/infantry hunting.

25 in the Space wolf codex, 26 in the Blood Angels, 31 in the SM vanilla, to be exact :) . But yes, reapers could use a discount. BA plasma cannon devastators are cheaper, more effective against their chosen target (heavy infantry or light vehicles) and more durable. And we all know just how often they are taken.

I'd like to see reapers either have modified EMLs that can fire something like the current reaper launcher (although if it isn't AP 2 and/or heavy 3 it won't be all that effective against all FNP/2+ etc targets out there) or have a choice between shuriken cannons (hey, the exarch and Maugan Ra have those), the current launchers, EMLs and starcannons.

Helicon_One
02-10-2011, 23:49
Eh, between a S8 ap 3 and S4 Ap 1 with 2d6 armor penetration, there are 2 anti-vehicle missiles,- and the second is a bit too unreliable for my taste; S8 is actually a little more likely to glance/penetrate than S4+d6. I think an anti-MEQ missile (i.e. S5 AP2, hvy 2/3) would be a lot more useful - then you can give EMLs to dark reapers so they are can actually be "death from afar" to everything ;) .
As much as anything, this was just to give the Eldar something different - I don't like the fact that Eldar use the same krak missiles as the Imperium does so wanted to replace it with something, and Fusion Missiles are something that could be resurrected from the old days.


As for the starcannon: make it heavy 3, leave the rest as it is. Yes, so there are 2 or 3 guns with the same range, big freaking deal. 80% of the guns in the GK codex are 24-inch, yet that's hardly a problem.
The problem with the starcannon is that as we saw in the 3rd Ed Codex, the combination of good strength, good range and AP2 made it a no-brainer choice since it overshadowed all the other options. I gave them back the third shot so that they regain some fear factor, but dropped the range down here so they're less versatile and have to get into 24" and risk enemy small arms fire. At the same time, the extra shots and range for the Scatter Laser and the extra shot and AP4 on the Shurricannon means that, even with a 3-shot starcannon available, they're more viable than they used to be.

Shamana
02-10-2011, 23:53
The problem with the starcannon is that as we saw in the 3rd Ed Codex, the combination of good strength, good range and AP2 made it a no-brainer choice since it overshadowed all the other options.

It was a no-brainer because it was very cheap - 15 points iirc on vypers, which themselves were a bit cheaper. And there was less cover, transports were trickier, vypers had crystal targeting matrices for jumping between cover etc. There were many reasons why it was that good, not just one. And with all the hype about eldar tech in the codex I'd rather things were expensive and good than cheap, crappy copies of what the "backward, superstitious" Imperium makes. Tau are the pseudo-Chinese faction, not Eldar ;) .

The starcannon was overnerfed in 4th because it was hit twice, once in firepower and once in price. The ruleset has become harder on it, and since then half the armory in other codices has become cheaper. Today, 20-25 points for a S6 3 shot starcannon on a BS 3/4 base is not too much imo - we'll see how the rules are for 6th edition, but I imagine those prices might hold there as well. The one you propose could work if it costed 5-10 points less, but I'd rather the starcannon was a high-tech marvel of plasma technology - and costed appropriately.

Sarevok
02-10-2011, 23:54
The problem with the starcannon is that as we saw in the 3rd Ed Codex, the combination of good strength, good range and AP2 made it a no-brainer choice since it overshadowed all the other options. I gave them back the third shot so that they regain some fear factor, but dropped the range down here so they're less versatile and have to get into 24" and risk enemy small arms fire. At the same time, the extra shots and range for the Scatter Laser and the extra shot and AP4 on the Shurricannon means that, even with a 3-shot starcannon available, they're more viable than they used to be.

well, it depends what happens to cover saves

with 4+ saves for everyone, low AP weaponry isn't nearly as good as it used to be

Spell_of_Destruction
02-10-2011, 23:58
25 in the Space wolf codex, 26 in the Blood Angels, 31 in the SM vanilla, to be exact :) . But yes, reapers could use a discount. BA plasma cannon devastators are cheaper, more effective against their chosen target (heavy infantry or light vehicles) and more durable. And we all know just how often they are taken.

I'd like to see reapers either have modified EMLs that can fire something like the current reaper launcher (although if it isn't AP 2 and/or heavy 3 it won't be all that effective against all FNP/2+ etc targets out there) or have a choice between shuriken cannons (hey, the exarch and Maugan Ra have those), the current launchers and starcannons.

I agree that they are now too specialised. They were great when the meta-game was in their favour (i.e. when most people took MEQ infantry forces and 4+ cover was less prevalent) but the truth is that they weren't that great on the rare occasions you didn't go up against MEQs.

Given the flexibility you get with Devastators + increased toughness + option of ablative wounds, I would expect to pay a lot less for Reapers to compensate for the lack of flexibility at present. But it's difficult to cost a unit that is awesome when the situation calls for them - they will seem overcosted against certain opponents and undercosted against others.

They essentially carry anti-personnel missile launchers which could surely be designed to fire different kinds of missiles, so I don't see why they shouldn't have a firing mode similar to the plasma missile.

EDIT:

Re: the Starcannon and other Heavy Weapons:-

I think that part of the problem is that our Heavy Weapons (in particular the shuriken cannon, scatter laser and starcannon) are poorly defined. I think that there are two primary reasons for this - (1) the shuriken cannon and scatter laser not transitioning well from 2nd ed to 3rd ed and (2) the starcannon getting a double hit from the nerf bat in the most recent codex.

The problem is how do you balance three weapons with such similar profiles? The shuriken cannon the the cheap option and is treated as such. You take it when you can't afford a scatter laser or if the shuriken cannon is the only option (e.g. for jetbikes).

The scatter laser and the starcannon are more difficult to balance and the problem only becomes worse if you make the starcannon heavy 3 because the two weapons then have a very similar profile.

Exploring some bold changes for each weapon:-

Keep the shuriken cannon as the cheap option. Bring the scatter laser back to its 2nd ed profile (Heavy 6) and cost appropriately. Make the starcannon either heavy 2, small blast or heavy 3.

These buffs could be balanced out by a reduction in range to 24".

Nazguire
03-10-2011, 02:33
I agree that they are now too specialised. They were great when the meta-game was in their favour (i.e. when most people took MEQ infantry forces and 4+ cover was less prevalent) but the truth is that they weren't that great on the rare occasions you didn't go up against MEQs.

Given the flexibility you get with Devastators + increased toughness + option of ablative wounds, I would expect to pay a lot less for Reapers to compensate for the lack of flexibility at present. But it's difficult to cost a unit that is awesome when the situation calls for them - they will seem overcosted against certain opponents and undercosted against others.

They essentially carry anti-personnel missile launchers which could surely be designed to fire different kinds of missiles, so I don't see why they shouldn't have a firing mode similar to the plasma missile.

EDIT:

Re: the Starcannon and other Heavy Weapons:-

I think that part of the problem is that our Heavy Weapons (in particular the shuriken cannon, scatter laser and starcannon) are poorly defined. I think that there are two primary reasons for this - (1) the shuriken cannon and scatter laser not transitioning well from 2nd ed to 3rd ed and (2) the starcannon getting a double hit from the nerf bat in the most recent codex.

The problem is how do you balance three weapons with such similar profiles? The shuriken cannon the the cheap option and is treated as such. You take it when you can't afford a scatter laser or if the shuriken cannon is the only option (e.g. for jetbikes).

The scatter laser and the starcannon are more difficult to balance and the problem only becomes worse if you make the starcannon heavy 3 because the two weapons then have a very similar profile.

Exploring some bold changes for each weapon:-

Keep the shuriken cannon as the cheap option. Bring the scatter laser back to its 2nd ed profile (Heavy 6) and cost appropriately. Make the starcannon either heavy 2, small blast or heavy 3.

These buffs could be balanced out by a reduction in range to 24".

As long as the Starcannon doesn't become as cheap and as available as it was in 3rd edition, I'm all for it going back to 36" Str 6 Heavy 3. Facing against a dozen starcannons with any army is just not fun.

Spell_of_Destruction
03-10-2011, 02:44
As long as the Starcannon doesn't become as cheap and as available as it was in 3rd edition, I'm all for it going back to 36" Str 6 Heavy 3. Facing against a dozen starcannons with any army is just not fun.

Well, this is another design problem Eldar have. We have so many platforms for heavy weapons that the inclination is to under-power them, otherwise they will just get spammed.

The Starcannon spam list was a specific Ultwe list in 3rd/4th ed that used min/max Guardian/Black Guardian squads, Wraithlords and a big Seer Council. I'm not sure if it would be all that great in the current meta-game.

It the two weapons retain a similar profile, the starcannon and the scatter laser need to be finely balanced otherwise one will inevitably be favoured over the other. GW are notoriously poor at this kind of fine balancing so I think there's a better chance of getting it right if the weapons move further apart in function.

Shamana
03-10-2011, 09:44
Keep the shuriken cannon as the cheap option. Bring the scatter laser back to its 2nd ed profile (Heavy 6) and cost appropriately. Make the starcannon either heavy 2, small blast or heavy 3..

Agreed on the Shuriken cannon. Keep it cheap and simple, as a pseudo-equivalent of the heavy bolter (+1 strength, -1 AP, -12 inch range). I'm not sure you need a change in the scatter laser, but heavy 6 AP - can work if you are aiming for an anti-infantry gun, as it will make it more effective against infantry, but limit it significantly against most vehicle models (I'd imagine costing it in the 15-20 points range). Then either leave the starcannon as S6 hvy 3 or, if you want, change it to S7 hvy 2. I'd favor the former, but I imagine the latter may also work.

The trick is pricing them just right.


These buffs could be balanced out by a reduction in range to 24".

Buffs don't need to be balanced by nerfs - if their cost reflects how useful they are . Atm, I'd say most eldar big guns are underpowered for what they do.

Helicon_One
03-10-2011, 12:27
Agreed on the Shuriken cannon. Keep it cheap and simple, as a pseudo-equivalent of the heavy bolter (+1 strength, -1 AP, -12 inch range).

See I'm not convinced by the idea of Eldar having a cheap, substandard weapon option. They're a massively advanced, ancient race and the only resource they're lacking is warm bodies. They're not like the Imperium which needs to stamp out billions of lasguns and heavy bolters every year to arm all their Guardsmen. Why would they equip their troops with a below-par heavy weapon?


I'm not sure you need a change in the scatter laser, but heavy 6 AP - can work if you are aiming for an anti-infantry gun, as it will make it more effective against infantry, but limit it significantly against most vehicle models (I'd imagine costing it in the 15-20 points range).
6 shots is a nod to how the gun worked in 2nd Edition, is something that stands out from other races heavy options (it has 'powerful advanced race' written all over it), and makes the weapon distinctive from the rest of the range - dropping to strength 5 and AP- makes it explicitly a light infantry shredder and prevents it treading too heavily on the toes of the other choices. It moves away from the mess of 3rd Ed where there were 3 different Strength 6, Heavy 3 weapons all competing for the same gun platforms, and the current Codex where Eldar Grav platform crews, despite being from a massively advanced culture with a manpower shortage and high tech coming out of their ears, take to the field with a clearly inferior Shurricannon to 'save points'.

Helicon_One
03-10-2011, 12:33
Anyway, the other major bugbear with the Eldar list: Shuriken Catapults and Guardians.

I'm severely underwhelmed by the idea of the 18" guardian catapult. For the most part, it just means that the Guardians will still get one round of underwhelming fire and then die, the only difference is they'll then die to the bolters instead of the chainswords. That, and the weapon effectively would become an AP5 Ork Shoota, which isn't particularly exciting or unique. 12" range is fine if you have the ability to make it count, so that's where we should focus. Changes in red.

Shuriken catapult : Range 12", Strength 3, AP 4, Assault 3
Shuriken Pistol: Range 12", Strength 3, AP 4, Pistol
Lasblaster: Range 24", Strength 4, AP6, Assault 1, Pulse*.
Eldar Flamer: Template, Strength 5, AP-, Template
Fusion Gun: Range 12", Strength 6, AP1, Assault 1, Fusion**

[*Pulse - if a weapon successfully hits, the firer may immediately fire again. Repeat until the weapon misses or has fired 3 shots.]
[**Fusion - weapon always rolls 2D6 for armour penetration.]

Assault 3, S3, AP4 gives the shuricat something that no other race has - a unique damage profile for its standard-issue small-arm (rather than the 'bolter catapult' we get currently), and the ability to put out a real barrage of fire, whilst bypassing the armour of a whole range of units who previously have enjoyed saves against everything but dedicated specialists and heavy weapons.

Here's how Guardians would be organised:

Guardian Defenders: 5-15, Shuriken Catapults, 0-1 grav platform or flamer or fusion gun, plasma grenades.
Storm Guardians: 5-15, Shuriken Pistol and close combat weapon, 0-3 flamers or fusion guns, plasma and haywire grenades.
Battle Guardians (these are to represent highly trained guardian units such as the Ulthwe Black Guardians): 5-10, BS4, Shuriken Catapults or Lasblasters, plasma and haywire grenades, 0-1 Grav Platform or flamer or fusion gun.

Inquisitor Kallus
03-10-2011, 12:39
Shuriken catapult : Range 12", Strength 3, AP 4, Assault 3
Shuriken Pistol: Range 12", Strength 3, AP 4, Pistol
.

That makes the Shuriken weapon seem like it is better at penetrating armour than shredding flesh which feels wrong.

Spell_of_Destruction
03-10-2011, 12:47
Assault 3, S3, AP4 gives the shuricat something that no other race has - a unique damage profile for its standard-issue small-arm (rather than the 'bolter catapult' we get currently), and the ability to put out a real barrage of fire, whilst bypassing the armour of a whole range of units who previously have enjoyed saves against everything but dedicated specialists and heavy weapons.


One reason I don't like this:-

How do you balance AP4 when it will be awesome against a couple of armies but close to worthless against a raft of others? We end up paying more for a feature of a weapon that won't feature against a large selection of armies (see: any Marines).

fidesratioque
03-10-2011, 13:07
Easy fix to shuriken catapult: keep everything the same, give it rending. Problem solved.

Helicon_One
03-10-2011, 13:14
That makes the Shuriken weapon seem like it is better at penetrating armour than shredding flesh which feels wrong.

Feels perfect to me. A shuriken is a hypersonic disc with a monomolecular cutting edge. It should slice through armour that other weapons would have trouble penetrating. At the same time, its a tiny projectile with very little mass, so it would make sense that it loses out slightly on pure stopping power.

Helicon_One
03-10-2011, 13:16
How do you balance AP4 when it will be awesome against a couple of armies but close to worthless against a raft of others? We end up paying more for a feature of a weapon that won't feature against a large selection of armies (see: any Marines).
S3 AP4 Assault 3 means you're still killing just as many Marines per Guardian as you were previously with S4 AP5 Assault 2.

And who said anything about paying more points?

alibaba122
03-10-2011, 14:43
My view on Eldar for all its worth.
Bring back the different craftworld specialities, ulthwe more psychers, black guardians. Siam Hann more jetbikes etc

HQ
Aurarchs's should be 'Jack of all trades but a master at none' to represent the skills different paths they have been on and turned away from. Such as army wide rules was that contribute to your force as a whole or add to a squads strengths.
Like a 12' Ld bubble, allowing a squad to use his WS or BS, maybe psychic mastery lvl 1 with access to warlock powers and a witch blade, or being allowed to take a vehicle such as a warwalker- Just suggestions lol

A wraithseer like the one in forgeworld would be awesome

Warlocks should have different with the options to upgrade to a master warlock lvl 2 who have a better stat line and a access two warlock powers. limit thier availability though.

Farseers have psychic mastery lvl 2 with the option to go to mastery lvl 3. maybe the option to cast the same power twice?

Troops
Guardians again should be versitile, so maybe increase thier weapon range to 15' keeping the assault 2. Give them access to 4+ armour, another heavy weapon at a more expensive price . For every 3 squads an option to upgrade thier BS or WS by 1- every 2 squads for ulthwe.

They are just suggetions agree or disagree as you like :)

RandomThoughts
03-10-2011, 17:25
My view on Eldar for all its worth.
Bring back the different craftworld specialities, ulthwe more psychers, black guardians. Siam Hann more jetbikes etc

I don't like where this is going. I play my own craftworld, and I don't like the idea of suddenly ending up as "Vanilla Eldar" or worse.

Just leave the codex in a way that allows multiple (craft-world themed) competitive builds, and leave it at that.

Scy
03-10-2011, 18:04
Would love to see the Autarch's shield expand to the squad he's in. Could do it with a lesser save, so 4++ for the Autarch and 5++ for the unit. Would give Aspect Warriors joined by an Autarch a real boost.

Reaver83
03-10-2011, 19:05
I think they need more synergy, they should be almost unable to work if not balanced, i doubt the designers could pull it off though

The Elder
03-10-2011, 19:24
wait wait wait, who suggested a Eldar flamer shouldn't have an AP value? Why? Every flamer (or equivalent has S4 Ap5, no need to change that).

And I really like the craftworld ideas, and opportunities to change FOC-slots (But I'm a big fan of these most of the time)

As for the synergy, I would like it if the added possible buffs all around. (As some buffs are more effective for certain units, this would add a lot of possible synergy to the Elder) (Although I would like it if the whole synergy couldn't be destroyed by eg. a single lucky Vindicare shot)

Cheers,
The Elder

Cheers,
The Elder

The Elder
03-10-2011, 19:25
Although it shouldn't be impossible to disrupt the synergy.

Cheers,
The Elder

Hendarion
03-10-2011, 21:07
I think they need more synergy, they should be almost unable to work if not balanced, i doubt the designers could pull it off though
Err, what?
Synergy how you seem to suggest it:
1 unit = beat 0 units
1 unit + 1 unit = beat 4 units

Synergy how I see it:
1 units = beat 0.8 to 1 units
1 unit + 1 unit = beat 3 units

However, synergy should *not* mean that a unit alone should not work on itself. That is pure nerfing and already the case (Banshees alone suck, Farseers alone suck, combine both and they work, but aren't worth the points). Units should be stable themselves and if you want synergy, the result of combining them should be bigger than the sum of the parts. It should not mean the parts alone should be nothing worth.

RandomThoughts
04-10-2011, 00:37
Err, what?
Synergy how you seem to suggest it:
1 unit = beat 0 units
1 unit + 1 unit = beat 4 units

Synergy how I see it:
1 units = beat 0.8 to 1 units
1 unit + 1 unit = beat 3 units

However, synergy should *not* mean that a unit alone should not work on itself. That is pure nerfing and already the case (Banshees alone suck, Farseers alone suck, combine both and they work, but aren't worth the points). Units should be stable themselves and if you want synergy, the result of combining them should be bigger than the sum of the parts. It should not mean the parts alone should be nothing worth.

I second that.

Spell_of_Destruction
04-10-2011, 01:23
Thirded. I don't think that 40k is a sufficiently complex system to include an army with the sort of synergy Reaver83 is referring to.

The reason that 'synergy' is often spoken of with Eldar is that they have units which can't inflict huge damage on their own but their mobility allows them to concentrate multiple units on a single portion of the opposing army in a classic divide and conquer style. This is the way I have played with Eldar since 3rd ed.

There is currently poor internal balance and I actually think that Phil Kelly's 4th ed codex was overly timid and failed to address many of the internal balance issues. This was glossed over due to the flying circus lists that were dominating everyone in the later days of 4th ed.

Banshees for example have never recovered from the transition from 3rd to 4th ed (i.e. losing their ability to assault out of Transports) but remained largely unchanged in the last codex. I don't want to get into another discussion about the merits of banshees but to summarize my thoughts on them:- they can be devastating if used correctly but the cost to benefit ratio just doesn't make them a competitive choice.

Shamana
04-10-2011, 09:26
I don't like where this is going. I play my own craftworld, and I don't like the idea of suddenly ending up as "Vanilla Eldar" or worse.

Just leave the codex in a way that allows multiple (craft-world themed) competitive builds, and leave it at that.

Meh, I'd kinda like to have doctrines, perhaps as purchaseable army-wide rules for farseers and autarchs. Even if there are only so many you can just pick the one closest to your theme. On the other hand, the 4E marine and guard codices had doctrines, and now they don't, so maybe GW isn't keen on that mechanic.


See I'm not convinced by the idea of Eldar having a cheap, substandard weapon option. They're a massively advanced, ancient race and the only resource they're lacking is warm bodies. They're not like the Imperium which needs to stamp out billions of lasguns and heavy bolters every year to arm all their Guardsmen. Why would they equip their troops with a below-par heavy weapon?

Eh, unlike the shuriken catapult and lasblaster, I wouldn't say the shuriken cannon is "below par." It's a pretty decent all-around gun, and if it got a 6-inch range boost would be the perfect starting weapon for heavy equipment (I'm hoping to 6-inch range increase to all shuriken weapons). Even without it, the speed of most eldar vehicles makes it pull its weight. BTW, if the shuriken catapult remains as a vehicle option, it definitely needs a range boost - 12-inch range gun on a vehicle is a joke.

Making scatter lasers S5 AP- Hvy 6 could work if you really needed to differentiate gun, though the Firestorm's gun would need a redesign - it's already having issues due to aircraft armor over 10 becoming more common. Overall the changes balance each other out, so it should probably cost about the same. It is generally better against T3-5 targets: against T3 it would mean 50% wound increase (but no ID/FnP ignore!) against T3, and roughly 15% increase against T 4/5 (identical vs T6, worse against T7 but that's pretty rare). It would be notably better than a heavy bolter, but it does cost more .

S7 for starcannons could work, if you really want to make it different from the shuriken cannon - it would be as powerful as the imperial one, but with better cooling and control, which sounds good enough for a high-tech race. Just don't go overboard on the cost (imo 15-20 is ok for heavy 2); I think overall it should have similar chances of inflicting wounds to an imperial plasma cannon (yes, people, we are trying to make sure eldar equipment isn't mechanically inferior to its Imperial equivalent, the nerve we have!). If it's S7 heavy 3, then yes, it is obviously good and should be priced accordingly - 25-30 points imo. Personally, apart from a buff to the starcannon and costing issues I think most stats on the weapons are decent enough. S6 for multishot guns is a pretty decent stat. Having a chance to penetrate light vehicles, wounding T4 on 2+ and instakilling/denying FnP to T3 is pretty sweet against most armies.

As far as synergy is concerned, I wouldn't mind seeing the special abilities of various units (btw, don't overcost special abilities) work together. For example, hawks' attacks are pinning (harassers), scorpions reroll to-hit rolls against foes pinned or engaged by another unit (ambushers), banshees' war cry reduces I and WS for the entire assault phase, etc.

Helicon_One
04-10-2011, 12:34
Eh, unlike the shuriken catapult and lasblaster, I wouldn't say the shuriken cannon is "below par." It's a pretty decent all-around gun, and if it got a 6-inch range boost would be the perfect starting weapon for heavy equipment (I'm hoping to 6-inch range increase to all shuriken weapons).
I meant 'below-par' compared to the other Eldar choices. As things stand, the Shurricannon is clearly inferior to the Scatter Laser against pretty much every target. Why would a craftworld ever issue them to their heavy weapon platforms when, as I said, its not as though they have such a manpower surplus that they'd be likely to run out of scatter lasers?

Hoshiyami
04-10-2011, 12:54
S7 for starcannons could work, if you really want to make it different from the shuriken cannon - it would be as powerful as the imperial one, but with better cooling and control, which sounds good enough for a high-tech race. Just don't go overboard on the cost (imo 15-20 is ok for heavy 2); I think overall it should have similar chances of inflicting wounds to an imperial plasma cannon (yes, people, we are trying to make sure eldar equipment isn't mechanically inferior to its Imperial equivalent, the nerve we have!).

Maybe I'm wrong but... aren't plasma cannons area weapons?

Drakeus
04-10-2011, 12:59
Helicon is right.

Scatter Laser, IMHO, should be:

S5 AP6 Heavy 6 - 36"

While ShuriCannon

S6 AP4 Heavy 4 - 24"

Sooo, rounding up!

Shuriken Catapult - S4 AP5 Assault 2 18"
Avenger Shuriken Catapult - S4 AP5 Assault 3 18" with Targeters
Shuriken Cannon - S6 AP4 Assault 4 24" ---> Basis for every vehicle and platform
Ancient Shuriken Cannon - S6 AP4 Assault 4 30" Rending ---> Dark Reapers Exarch

Scatter Laser - S5 AP6 Heavy 6 36" ---> 10 points
Starcannon - S6 AP2 Heavy 3 36"/ S5 AP2 Heavy 1 Blast 36" ---> 20 points
EML - as it is now - S8 AP3 Heavy 1/ S4 AP4 Heavy 1 Blast, Pinning, 48" ---> 15 points
Brightlance - S8 AP2 Heavy 1, Lance ---> 25 points

That would be fair.


Bladestorm = Rending

titilititi
04-10-2011, 15:08
Another thing I thought, is that every eldar unit that has the "fleet or foot" rule should have the "retreat" rule in the same time.
It would show that Eldars are a dying race, but also that they are very agile. And more than everything, it would allow guardians to shoot with their shuricat, if some survive to the first round, at the less twice!
I'm really against a 24ps range shuricat.
I find the idea of giving the star canon its 'heavy3' with reducing its range excellent. The current 25 pts are a "hold up"! Same with the Bright Lance, that should have the same profile that the laser canon and keep its special rule. (I can always dream...)
Some forumers in some precedent threads already developped the ideas about the autarch's pathes and I find it definitly the way to show their strategic skills, because, as the rest, it's not so much in the game, but only in the fluff...
I also think that one other of the 'Elite' assault aspect squad should be removed to Troops, and, as it is for now, the candidates would be Banshees. (they could even cost less points...)

Inquisitor Kallus
04-10-2011, 15:20
Shuriken Cannon - S6 AP4 Assault 4 24" ---> Basis for every vehicle and platform


Bladestorm = Rending

Its all pretty good, id go with it, especially the rending Bladestorm which seems very appropriate. However having S.Cannons as the basis for every vehicle? Even jetbikes and Falcons? I dont know, I think having smaller 'secondary weapon systems' is actually quite cool. If you mean that the upgradable heavy weapons on vehicles are S.Cannons then I agree. There shouldnt be 'empty slots' which have to be filled.

Drakeus
04-10-2011, 17:01
Yes, I meant "upgradeable heavy weapons on vehicles". Mea Culpa, didn't say everything ;)

Spell_of_Destruction
05-10-2011, 01:46
Meh, I'd kinda like to have doctrines, perhaps as purchaseable army-wide rules for farseers and autarchs. Even if there are only so many you can just pick the one closest to your theme. On the other hand, the 4E marine and guard codices had doctrines, and now they don't, so maybe GW isn't keen on that mechanic.

I like this idea. Rather than have Craftworld 'doctrines', you could purchase a 'strategy' for your Autarch. This would represent his mastery of a particular strategic discipline.

I disagree with those who say that Autarchs need a buff in combat abilities. I reckon they are fine as they are but they need to offer more than the current 'Master Strategist' rule to represent the idea that they're among the greatest generals in the galaxy.

I have been saying this from the day that 5th ed was released - the FOC is currently too restrictive for Eldar in this edition. The requirement to load up on Troops is a big hindrance and means that we're spending points we would rather spend elsewhere. It's no coincidence that the top armies in 5th edition have the best Troops.

Allowing Autarchs to influence your force composition is, IMO, an excellent way of allowing a diverse range of playing styles without punishing those who want to play 'vanilla'.

RandomThoughts
05-10-2011, 09:57
I like this idea. Rather than have Craftworld 'doctrines', you could purchase a 'strategy' for your Autarch. This would represent his mastery of a particular strategic discipline.

I disagree with those who say that Autarchs need a buff in combat abilities. I reckon they are fine as they are but they need to offer more than the current 'Master Strategist' rule to represent the idea that they're among the greatest generals in the galaxy.

I have been saying this from the day that 5th ed was released - the FOC is currently too restrictive for Eldar in this edition. The requirement to load up on Troops is a big hindrance and means that we're spending points we would rather spend elsewhere. It's no coincidence that the top armies in 5th edition have the best Troops.

Allowing Autarchs to influence your force composition is, IMO, an excellent way of allowing a diverse range of playing styles without punishing those who want to play 'vanilla'.

I like the idea of Autarch Doctrines, but I'd rather see them as support/leader units that provide different benefits to large chunks of your army (or possibly in a bubble around the Autarch), not as FOC modifiers.

Regarding the FOC, while I agree that we suffer a great deal from bad troops right now, I'd much rather have them improve our troops.

sebbelina
05-10-2011, 10:12
I dont think the shuri Can need changing actually but the rest needs a tweek.
All platforms and vehicles comes standard with shuri can.

Scatter: str 5, ap6, heavy 5: 5p
Star cannon: str 6, ap2, heavy 3: 15p
Eml: str8: ap4, heavy1 blast: 15p
Brigth lance: str 8, ap1,heavy 1: 20p

TheLaughingGod
05-10-2011, 10:21
The Autarch needs to have his fluff tweaked. They need to be akin to Exarchs in power (their suits are incredibly ancient according to PotS) and they should be fleshed out as protopheonix lords. After all, new warrior shrines must come from somewhere, why not from the Autarch who walks many paths but is not ensnared, who's personality and will protects them from Exarchdom. The difference between Exarch and Pheonix Lord is that Exarchs are gestalt spirits, but Phoenix Lords subsume all other spirits to their single powerful will and personality

N3p3nth3
05-10-2011, 11:16
The Autarch needs to have his fluff tweaked. They need to be akin to Exarchs in power (their suits are incredibly ancient according to PotS) and they should be fleshed out as protopheonix lords. After all, new warrior shrines must come from somewhere, why not from the Autarch who walks many paths but is not ensnared, who's personality and will protects them from Exarchdom. The difference between Exarch and Pheonix Lord is that Exarchs are gestalt spirits, but Phoenix Lords subsume all other spirits to their single powerful will and personality

That seems more like a direct contradiction than fleshing out of the current fluff to me, but I admit it has been a while since I minutely pored over my eldar dex.

The Elder
05-10-2011, 11:45
Although I agree with almost anything that's been said at this thread. I think we should be carefull saying: according to the fluff its's the best/most advanced etc.

As most Codexes say something similar. (and fluff-wise, they don't know everything about the other races ;))

Cheers,
The Elder

RandomThoughts
05-10-2011, 12:32
Although I agree with almost anything that's been said at this thread. I think we should be carefull saying: according to the fluff its's the best/most advanced etc.

As most Codexes say something similar. (and fluff-wise, they don't know everything about the other races ;))

Cheers,
The Elder

According to official Fluff, there's a clear tech-level distinction between elder races (Necrons, Eldar, some pretty random Ork-Tech) and younger races (Imperium, Imperial Renegades, Tau). While the Orks occupy a special status (random mix of crude to superior tech) and the hierarchy within the younger races is unclear thanks to the 30'000 years of imperial stagnation, different allocation of tech to different branches of the Imperiums fighting forces, etc.,, Necrons and (all) Eldar should by definition outmatch the younger races in arcane technological marvels. The kind that is indistinguishable from magic... ;)

jt.glass
05-10-2011, 12:41
Avenger Shuriken Catapult - S4 AP5 Assault 3 18" with Targeters
Bladestorm = RendingI'd make the Avenger give the Rending and the Bladestorm give the extra shot (without the current reloading nonsense of course), but it doesn't make much difference either way. Are the Targetters +1 BS?


Regarding the FOC, while I agree that we suffer a great deal from bad troops right now, I'd much rather have them improve our troops.Yeah, its weird. On paper, Eldar should do really well in 5th on paper with 4 Troops choices to choose from, you'd think you'd get one good one, but none of them really shine (well, jetbike may be great but I can't afford the £ to find out ATM).

Which gives me an idea: They had 4 Troops when most armies only had 1 or 2. Now, several other armies have 4 basic (with more FOC bending to boot). What if they had 6 or 7 Troops basic Troops choices with no FOC bending required. If so, what would we move into Troops? Someone upthread suggested on of the CC aspects, so lets go with that (although lets make it Scorpions, as they are more likely to have the staying power to actually hold an objective they take). Balance that out by making Dark Reapers Troops too (which has the added benefit of relieving the presure on the overcrowded HS slot). Any other possibilities?


That seems more like a direct contradiction than fleshing out of the current fluff to me, but I admit it has been a while since I minutely pored over my eldar dex.I think it could work if you say they don't get stuck on any particular path, but at some point they realise they are never going to walk any path but a warrior one. They still have the flexibility at this point to develop their own style, so they do so, then set up a shrine and start teaching others.


I think we should be carefull saying: according to the fluff its's the best/most advanced etc. As most Codexes say something similar. (and fluff-wise, they don't know everything about the other races ;))I don't remember any codices saying that actually, but lets stipuilate that they do for the purposes of argument that they do. No amount of codex propaganda cancels out the fact that the Eldar have been around for millions of years, that they had a post scarcity society that ruled any part of the galaxy the deigned to notice 10k years ago, that they they took a technology created buy the Old Ones and improved it. The claim that their technology is the mutt's nuts has plenty of support!


jt.

Drakeus
05-10-2011, 12:51
Targetters are for measuring distances whenever You want (sth like Git Finda Flash Gitz have).

Avenger Shuriken Catapult with Rending (rest is like it is now)....Awsum! /)^3^(\

The Elder
05-10-2011, 13:09
Actually, I noticed some arogance in a lot of codexes, which is fine. (As it is biased) That doesn't take away that the Eldar are around for thousands if not milions of years.

Atlhough I could still imagine a part of their technology getting lost during the Fall.

Cheers,
The ELder

jt.glass
05-10-2011, 13:13
Atlhough I could still imagine a part of their technology getting lost during the Fall.IMO, they lost massive amounts of technology in the Fall. But before that they were basically The Culture (only less nice). They had a lot of tech to lose!


jt.

Helicon_One
05-10-2011, 13:37
Which gives me an idea: They had 4 Troops when most armies only had 1 or 2. Now, several other armies have 4 basic (with more FOC bending to boot). What if they had 6 or 7 Troops basic Troops choices with no FOC bending required.

You can get 5 troops slots just by separating out the Storm Guardians from the Defenders (and as the current merged entry is pretty messy, that probably should happen anyway). Add the Battle Guardians/Ulthwe Black Guardians as I suggested earlier, and that's 6.


If so, what would we move into Troops? Someone upthread suggested on of the CC aspects, so lets go with that (although lets make it Scorpions, as they are more likely to have the staying power to actually hold an objective they take). Balance that out by making Dark Reapers Troops too (which has the added benefit of relieving the presure on the overcrowded HS slot). Any other possibilities?
I don't think 'relieving pressure' on popular FOC slots is a smart balance move - forcing players to make decisions between different units is a good thing, and if we're going to spread everything out to allow players to take all the things they want, why have FOC slot limitations at all? That, and there's no background support for the idea that Scorpions and Reapers, to use your two examples, are more common than any of the other Aspects. To be honest it looks more like a desire for you to get a 3+ save to camp objectives with.

The Elder
05-10-2011, 13:37
But it would be nice if they got some boosts, and (more importantly) more than 1 or 2 ways to play them.

Cheers,
The Elder

The Elder
05-10-2011, 13:40
Do you reallt think they will add both storm guardians and storm guardians and battle/Ulthwe guardian?

what would be the differences between all these?

Cheers,
The Elder

Sildani
05-10-2011, 13:42
No, no Aspect save DA's should be a Troops choice - there's just not enough of them to go around, and I like that idea of scarcity. Let's not forget that Wraithguard are Troops as well when properly configured, so that's five choices.

No, the solution is to make our troops better. Jetbikes will be able to take different weapons much like DE Reavers, Guardians will get a better gun/armor/more weapron platforms, Avengers will... have something done, and so on.

As for crowded FOC, slots, yep, that's a huge problem for the Eldar Codex. The solution is NOT to move more Aspects into Troops, but rather to move other stuff around. Support weapon platforms could be Guardian Defender upgrades. War Walkers could move to Fast Attack. Vypers could become Guardian Jetbike squad upgrades with two wounds and their usual complement of guns. Wraithguard could be made Troops with a smaller squad size. Falcons could be purchased as a dedicated transport.

If one absolutely HAD to have more Aspects as Troops then let a squad attached to their Phoenix Lord count as a Troops choice full stop. That'd take up an HQ slot as well, which would be an acceptable penalty.

Regarding Autarchs: they're Batman, not Superman. They need to be far more tactically brilliant than they are. Manipulating Reserves rolls is very nice, but how about letting an Eldar unit Deep Strike whether it usually can or not? Or your Outflanking units can always choose the table edge they walk in on? Or she grants Stubborn to Eldar units within 6"? Or perhaps he could allow a unit to Infiltrate whether it can usually or not (representing Webway portals). The Autarchs should allow your army access to tools it ordinarily wouldn't have, she shouldn't be a CC monster. You want that in an HQ, get a Phoenix Lord.

Helicon_One
05-10-2011, 13:56
Do you reallt think they will add both storm guardians and storm guardians and battle/Ulthwe guardian?

what would be the differences between all these?

From earlier in the thread:


Here's how Guardians would be organised:

Guardian Defenders: 5-15, Shuriken Catapults, 0-1 grav platform or flamer or fusion gun, plasma grenades.
Storm Guardians: 5-15, Shuriken Pistol and close combat weapon, 0-3 flamers or fusion guns, plasma and haywire grenades.
Battle Guardians (these are to represent highly trained guardian units such as the Ulthwe Black Guardians): 5-10, BS4, Shuriken Catapults or Lasblasters, plasma and haywire grenades, 0-1 Grav Platform or flamer or fusion gun.

titilititi
05-10-2011, 14:29
[/QUOTE]I don't think 'relieving pressure' on popular FOC slots is a smart balance move - forcing players to make decisions between different units is a good thing, and if we're going to spread everything out to allow players to take all the things they want, why have FOC slot limitations at all? That, and there's no background support for the idea that Scorpions and Reapers, to use your two examples, are more common than any of the other Aspects. To be honest it looks more like a desire for you to get a 3+ save to camp objectives with.[/QUOTE]



That's why I suggested Banshees should be the ones removed to troops...
Like Avengers they are a lot better when helped by the Farseer, whereas Scorpions have to do the job a little bit more by themselves, as they are infiltrators (and maybe, I just say maybe... a 3+save infiltrated troop is definitly something obvious).
They are mostly females. So I think they are numerous, as all the others seem to be a business of men, in term of miniatures I mean, and the fluff says Jain Zar has established a lot of shrines after the Fall.
I don't think either that Dark Reapers should become troops. Like Stiking Scorpions, they are very dark, near of the Dark Eldars in fact... I'm sure both are Eccentric pathes that other eldars concider as the sign of a bad mood...

Shamana
05-10-2011, 14:46
I don't see a need to move aspects other than DA to troops. The one exception should imo be Phoenix lords, where I can see making their aspect troops or at least scoring to allow for sect lists. Making them scoring is another matter - imo both autarchs and PLs (if they don't make them troops) should make them score.

@ Sildani: I think an autarch should at least have the OPTION to be great in combat. Sorry, Phoenix Lords are a) SCs, thus b) have premade fluff and equipment I may not like, and C) are freaking expensive. There should imo be a "generic" warrior HQ, and the Avatar doesn't count imo, so unless there's an uber-exarch of some sort introduced, I would like to see an option for the autarch to kick ass him/herself. As I see it, if the Archons (backstabbing ******** nonpareil, who gain and keep their positions for using wits, intrigue and assassination) can also be murder machines, so can the guys who've made a point of studying every combat style on the craftworld and then becoming frontline leaders of armies rather than raiding forces.

djhowitzer
05-10-2011, 15:13
i am fine with dire avengers remaining the only troops choice. you can still take every aspect in a legal foc. making falcons a dedicated transport would be a big difference. as would making vypers a jetbike upgrade.

i would like to see dire avengers get offensive and defensive grenades. and a rending bladestorm. for an appropriate points hike. i would also like to see the diresword become a rending power weapon and lose its instant kill ability

finally, i would like the ability to take warlocks in aspect units. they were all once aspect warriors afterall. that could go a long way to solving the various problems with aspect warriors. so long as we also get an assault boat, natch.

althathir
05-10-2011, 18:32
DA's - I think I would give them plasma grenades and the option to purchase defensive grenades (replacing the exarch power so 15 for the squad), and in addition the option to get haywires (2 pts a model). Makes them a fairly flexible unit without being over the top and their main weapon remains the shurcat. I would also replace the exarch power with one that gives the unit stubborn.

I agree with DJhowitzer about adding the option to have warlocks as an upgrade to aspect squads.

For autarchs I think an ability like logans "the high king" would be nice. It basically allows him to pick one of four abilities at the start of each turn which benifits him and the squad he is with. The abilities could allow people to tailor their autarch a bit more without being OTT.

For example the choices could be unit becomes scoring, furious charge, stubborn, and stealth. I would rather have these match up with exarch powers but its easier to explain with USRs. Either way it would make for Autarch that could pack a decent punch in close combat but would still emphasize leadership.

Shamana
05-10-2011, 21:40
i would like to see dire avengers get offensive and defensive grenades. and a rending bladestorm. for an appropriate points hike. i would also like to see the diresword become a rending power weapon and lose its instant kill ability.

Diresword being a PW and rending is kinda redundant under normal rules. Right now, rending means you automatically cause a PW wound on a to-wound roll of 6. Well, with a power weapon, on a roll of 6 already do that against anything with toughness of 6 or less - so basically anything other than a DE MC, wraithlord or C'tan. Rending is simply useless on a power weapon against the great majority of enemies.

RandomThoughts
05-10-2011, 22:43
I'd just like to remind everyone, that according to rumors, troops aren't the only ones able to hold objectives in 6th edition, they are merely a bit better at it. If our troops stay the way they are right no, it might be a reasonable gamble to just take two of them like we used to before 5th edition and pour the rest of our points into the elites and heavies. That being said, while I don't see any need to get even more units reclassified as troops, I'd rather have them fix the ones we already have.

Spell_of_Destruction
05-10-2011, 22:59
@ Sildani: I think an autarch should at least have the OPTION to be great in combat. Sorry, Phoenix Lords are a) SCs, thus b) have premade fluff and equipment I may not like, and C) are freaking expensive. There should imo be a "generic" warrior HQ, and the Avatar doesn't count imo, so unless there's an uber-exarch of some sort introduced, I would like to see an option for the autarch to kick ass him/herself.

I don't think it's that difficult a fix to make Autarch's decent in combat. The laser lance/mandiblaster/jetbike autarch is already a bit of a beast.

How about adding in a new 'Autarch only' weapon option? It would basically be a two handed power weapon that always wounds on a 3+. It's essentially a slightly toned down version of Yriel's weapon and would therefore make Yriel less of a no-brainer if you're taking an Autarch.

Shamana
05-10-2011, 23:14
Either that or some pseudo-exarch toys, like how the last DoW 2 campaign had the eldar autarch able to use two-handed power weapons (aka executioners). Considering that even with a combo like relic blade/storm shield a SM captain is seldom fielded I'm not sure how good the autarch can be in melee, but the option to spend a bit more to ensure better combat performance would be appreciated.

@ RandomThoughts: troops holding objectives or no, I thikn it's bad balance to have certain slots being poorer value compared to others imo. Points are the measure by which units can be compared - slots are at best supposed to be a secondary concern.

Spell_of_Destruction
05-10-2011, 23:19
Well his stats are already pretty decent. WS6 means he's hitting just about everything on a 3+. Mandiblasters also let him boost his A to 4. It's the low S with no option to boost (unless you go for the jetbike option) that's the problem.

Shamana
05-10-2011, 23:23
Their toughness is also low (or is that what you meant by the JB comment?) - one S6 hit and he is looking at possible ID. That, with low strength and no special weapons, is why the autarch is kinda lackluster in terms of combat imo.

Spell_of_Destruction
06-10-2011, 00:04
Well yes but if you play Eldar low toughness is one of the things you just have to live with. The 4+ inv as standard is pretty decent really and it's not that difficult to keep them away from S6+ if you're careful.

I think their main selling point should be strategic/tactical advantages with a secondary role as a combat support character. A little boost in this area (in the form of the aforementioned weapon option) would do the trick and discourage people from using Yriel all the time (assuming he remains more or less the same). When Eldar were still popular among top tier players it was kind of ridiculous seeing Yriel everywhere. Even players who didn't want Yriel in their force from a fluff perspective were using their own Autarch as a 'counts as' Yriel. This is what happens if you give the SC an awesome weapon and give the non SCs access to only basic equipment.

I actually find plenty of uses for them as they are. Mandiblasters + power weapon + warp spider jump pack + fusion gun is a nice little combo if you're running a Reserves list with Warp Spiders. But then I don't normally play at a super competitive level these days.

Romanus
06-10-2011, 03:58
I think pretty much every combination of adjustments has been mentioned and have liked alot of what has been said. The Eldar Codex is still strong as it is, an it is, and only little tweeks are required. I'll detail my thoughts on this below. All this is running of 5th ed deployment rules and such.

Autarch - needs to also give a +1 bonus to siezing the intiative before the game begins. Tweaking weapon layouts to be able to better fill roles of aspects would be better, plus a few nice special weapons would be a benefit.

Farseer/Warlocks - Psycic powers are nice as they are, and I don't think more aggresive destruction powers are needed. The overt use of phscic poweres I believe would be to much of a cras thing for Eldar to use, much more suited to the lower species of the galaxy. More interesting buff spells would be nice.

Guardians - I'm split on what to do here, do you give then longer range weapons (18" would be enough) or do you reduce the squad size and have them as fire support with heavy weapon platforms. I did like the idea of the platoon idea that was mentioned earlier with the support weapon platform being a choice.

Aspects - Most are quite strong and fill the areas that are ment to, a few need a little extra punch but not much. Phoenix lords as upgrades to squads are a cool idea.

Vehicles - Vyper needs serious rethinking as it just struggles now in the meta game. Falcons are the same. The rest fulfill there roles well. Would like to see warwalkers moved to the fast attack slot though and falcons become dedicated transports. A revamped crystal targeting matrix would be nice allowing either fire all wepons at cruising or move fire and move again as it was originally.

In the end though, I think the Eldar codex is still extremely strong and a rewrite isn't really essential just yet. Just a few little changes to it would be nice.

Cheers,
Rom

Snowflake
06-10-2011, 05:43
Dunno why everyone keeps zoning in on Falcons as the dedicated transports. Wave Serpent obviously should be the dedicated transport, with an assault ramp upgrade and/or better survivability (though the energy field is already nice). The only reason Falcon is taken now is because you don't need to transport more than 6 with the current setup, and at that point a Falcon is the clear choice due to the added support firepower.

Really, Wave Serpent should be the dedicated transport, Falcon should become heavy anti-tank, and the Fire Prism should get beefed up in the support bombardment aspect.

Charistoph
06-10-2011, 07:30
Dunno why everyone keeps zoning in on Falcons as the dedicated transports. Wave Serpent obviously should be the dedicated transport, with an assault ramp upgrade and/or better survivability (though the energy field is already nice). The only reason Falcon is taken now is because you don't need to transport more than 6 with the current setup, and at that point a Falcon is the clear choice due to the added support firepower.

Really, Wave Serpent should be the dedicated transport, Falcon should become heavy anti-tank, and the Fire Prism should get beefed up in the support bombardment aspect.

Seriously? Why should their be only one Dedicated Transport? Because every other Xenos has only one, while the Imperium can almost call any Transport a DT? Why can't they have both as an option? True, the WS should have an Assault Ramp, which gives a distinction from the Falcon (along with difference in firepower and defensive wargear).

TheLaughingGod
06-10-2011, 07:35
So for everyone that thinks brute force powers are "un-eldar" read Path of the Seer. Farseer is shown blasting bolts of lightning from his fingers and staff, calling down serpents of fire on his foes and basically being a Jedi.

Clearly, GW considers destructive aggressive powers to be part of Eldar psychics. No surprise since the Warlock is stated to be one of the greatest battle psykers in the galaxy

Leiv
06-10-2011, 07:43
Lets see

-Buff the Avatar up a bit to where he is more on par with greater demons, after all he is a warp entity using a casing of molten iron. Also he is the incarnation of Khain so probably furious charge instead of Fearless, makes armies with him much more CC oriented which makes sense.

-I find Farseers fine, but possibly 3 powers and

-Autarchs give them an option to take either pack more of a punch or assist other unites.

-Harlequins...Solitare

-Make our Aspect warriors better, wouldn't even mind if this was at more points. Banshees furious charge, Scorpians rending, etc

- wriathlords get plus 1 attack for two wraithswords

jt.glass
06-10-2011, 10:38
You can get 5 troops slots just by separating out the Storm Guardians from the Defenders (and as the current merged entry is pretty messy, that probably should happen anyway).Yes, and you could count wraithguard if you want to, since although their Troop-ness is depended solely on the unit itself it isn't really like standard FOC bending. Not the point, the point was to add something to the Eldar to let them catch up with current codices. Reorganising what they already have is not adding anything.


I don't think 'relieving pressure' on popular FOC slots is a smart balance move - forcing players to make decisions between different units is a good thingObviously it would be ideal if all the different slot types had interesting choices in them. But the choice in HS is between Falcons, Wraithlords, Prisms, etc. That choice would remain.

That said, it was just something that popped into my head, I'm not wedded to the idea.


Diresword being a PW and rending is kinda redundant under normal rules. Right now, rending means you automatically cause a PW wound on a to-wound roll of 6. Well, with a power weapon, on a roll of 6 already do that against anything with toughness of 6 or less - so basically anything other than a DE MC, wraithlord or C'tan. Rending is simply useless on a power weapon against the great majority of enemies.As long as "the great majority of enemies" doesn't include any vehicles of AV 10, 11, or 12...


------------------

Other responses to people that I apparently failed to multiquote:

I suggested Scorpions rather than Banshees because Banshees are a bit too hit-and-run to be Troops IMO (and because my main army is marines: power weapons on Troops terrify me).

What if the various grav tanks required a HS slot and a FA slot? They're both fast and heavy, after all!

While vypers should obviously be 2w jetbikes, I don't like the idea of their being an upgrade to jetbike squads. Just seems a bit too patterned after marines. For the same reason, I'd avoid 5 being the significant number for unit sizes - 6 would have a nice irony!


jt.

The Elder
06-10-2011, 10:43
Why does 6 have a nice irony?

Cheers,
The Elder

Sildani
06-10-2011, 12:01
Falcons being dedicated transports relieve the pressure of choice in the Heavy Support slot. With my suggestions of support weapon platforms becoming Guardian upgrades, War Walkers going to Fast Attack, and now Falcons, there's still: Wraithlords, Fire Prisms, Night Spinners, Dark Reapers, and Falcons. That's still a lot of choice, and who knows what new shiny thing the Eldar may yet get.

RandomThoughts
06-10-2011, 12:06
I don't think it's that difficult a fix to make Autarch's decent in combat. The laser lance/mandiblaster/jetbike autarch is already a bit of a beast.

How about adding in a new 'Autarch only' weapon option? It would basically be a two handed power weapon that always wounds on a 3+. It's essentially a slightly toned down version of Yriel's weapon and would therefore make Yriel less of a no-brainer if you're taking an Autarch.

How about Powerfist as weapon option?

RandomThoughts
06-10-2011, 12:15
@ RandomThoughts: troops holding objectives or no, I thikn it's bad balance to have certain slots being poorer value compared to others imo. Points are the measure by which units can be compared - slots are at best supposed to be a secondary concern.

Which is exactly why I wish they would fix the troops we already have and make them as good or better than the rest of our army.

Better?, you may ask. Indeed: Come on, GW keeps telling us that troops are the most common units on the battlefield and they basically ask us to spam them. And if there's one thing that gets units spammed it is game value. If Guardians and Jetbikes and Tactical Marines suddenly outshone other units (relative to point values, of course), we'd see tons of them across the board. Fluff and rules would suddenly support each other, not the other way around.

Okay, so why would we than field non-troops at all?, you might add. For a simple reason: Troops, while effective at what they do, are pretty specialized or generic. To deal with certain situations, you just need stuff with different abilities/weapons/gears. In other words: Troops form the backbone of the army, while Elite, Fast and Heavy units fill niches that can't be covered by the troops themselves.

Just a thought.

djhowitzer
06-10-2011, 12:49
Diresword being a PW and rending is kinda redundant under normal rules. Right now, rending means you automatically cause a PW wound on a to-wound roll of 6. Well, with a power weapon, on a roll of 6 already do that against anything with toughness of 6 or less - so basically anything other than a DE MC, wraithlord or C'tan. Rending is simply useless on a power weapon against the great majority of enemies.

the thing i was after is that a rending weapon always wounds on a roll of 6. that would mean that a dire avenger exarch could fight all comers - even a heirophant. his chances of winning would be vanishingly slender, but they would be there which fits the fluff. at the moment an exarch is stumped by anything over t6

jt.glass
06-10-2011, 17:13
Why does 6 have a nice irony?Because it's Slaanesh's number.


jt.

althathir
06-10-2011, 19:17
How about Powerfist as weapon option?

I wouldn't want a power fist, on a t3 model without eternal warrior that actually has good int. Something that wounds on a set value like an agoniser would be nice, or new weapon that allows for a new effect (str boost, re-reroll wounds, etc.)

MajorWesJanson
06-10-2011, 21:26
Wave Serpents and Flacons should both be Dedicated Transports, similar to how both rhinos and Razorbacks are. Then do a new Falcon kit with a turret similar to the Fire Prism design, with a Firestorm option.

Take Vypers and redesign them to be more similar to Venoms, with the troop bay option or enclosed with a gunner and turret.

Jetbikes/ Shining Spears 3 pack like DE Jetbikes.

Plastic mini-sprue Farseer and Autarch

Plastic box of 5 Wraithguard and 1 warlock.

Fire Dragons in plastic.

Shamana
07-10-2011, 00:17
As long as "the great majority of enemies" doesn't include any vehicles of AV 10, 11, or 12...

Sure, but while avengers are supposed to be fairly flexible as far as aspects go, I don't care much for seeing them cut open tanks or slay bio-titans. Their iconic fight would be something a la the Thermopylae or Alamo - holding fast against a numerically superior enemy.

Against armor, at most I can imagine them having the option to buy haywires or get rending shots (i.e. having bladestorm give rending due to the huge amount of shots - which is iirc the justification for the assault cannon getting it).

Kyrolon
07-10-2011, 08:46
Dire Avengers should be the one multi role aspect. Their equipment should be Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Pistol, CCW, Plasma Grenades (offensive), Tanglefoot grenades (defensive), and Haywire Grenades. Since pretty much all the Imperial forces got free grenades this shouldn't be much (if any) points increase. It would also differentiate Avengers from Guardians assuming Guardians get an 18" Catapult that they really need.

Guardian squad size should be 5-10. This would allow them to be a supporting unit.

Dwarf Longbeard
07-10-2011, 10:06
Dire Avengers should be the one multi role aspect. Their equipment should be Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Pistol, CCW, Plasma Grenades (offensive), Tanglefoot grenades (defensive), and Haywire Grenades. Since pretty much all the Imperial forces got free grenades this shouldn't be much (if any) points increase. It would also differentiate Avengers from Guardians assuming Guardians get an 18" Catapult that they really need.

Guardian squad size should be 5-10. This would allow them to be a supporting unit.

I like the idea for the Dire Avengers, I always found it odd that the Exarch can have a power weapon for close combat but the normal Avengers have nothing.

I always use a unit of 15 Guardians with a Warlock, I find they can be quite useful at going for objectives and supporting the aspect warriors, I think they should be left as a 5 to 20 choice just so players can still have the option of taking bigger squads if they like

Giving the Shuriken Catapult an 18" range would be great, after reading the fluff about Shuriken weapons firing out hundereds of discs in each shot I wonder if it would make them overpowered if all shuriken weapons got rending as well?

djhowitzer
07-10-2011, 13:06
i like kyrolon's loadout. especdially if we keep defend. that now means -2 attacks to enemy units on the charge. i like that idea because it means you can leave avengers camping on a home objective. giving them more than one role that would be affective

Kyrolon
07-10-2011, 17:10
After I posted last night I got a better idea for guardians. I'd leave the size at 5-20. For each group of 5 you could purchase a heavy weapon. Like many of the other armies currently can (except sadly, Dark Eldar) I'd allow the purchased blob to break down into sections based on the number of heavy weapons with at least 5 guardians accompanying each. Essentially you could buy 20 guardians, with 4 heavies, and deploy them as either one squad of 20, two squads of 10 (each w/2 heavies), or four squads of 5. Additionally you may or may not want to allow 1 warlock per 5. I'm not so sure on that. Warlocks might work better being something like wolf guard. They'd be an HQ choice that you could take in groups of 10 as a non slot HQ (1 per Farseer) and then delegate out to squads at deployment time. This seems to work as described in Path of the Seer.

Now if only they'd let an Eldar fan write the next dex. <sigh>

titilititi
07-10-2011, 19:08
I always thought the Dire Avenger Exarch's power spear was a two-handed sword, giving him a +1 strenght bonus, and that it has been forgotten in the codex. But you're right, the Dire Avengers and their exarch should have the equipment and the skills to defend the Eldars from nearly anything. So rending is a good idea.
I also hope they will take inspiration on the Dark Eldars codex concerning HQ. I mean being able to chose 1-3 farseers of whom a great farseer. The Farseer could be a little bit better in assault than the old Great Farseer, who could have two psychic powers in his profile.
(I'm ok that eldar psychic powers are good but I'd like Chance and Guide to get their range increased)
It would be also a good thing to add a 2 wounds Great Exarch, limited to one shrine's wargeer. But this HQ choice could be the one making one unit of his shrine troop.
Whereas the Autarch should give the ost benefits of his strategical skills. I'd also like them to more esoteric artifacts. It's classy as the Eldars are and it would encourage me to convert mine.

Charistoph
07-10-2011, 23:26
A Dire Avenger Exarch Relic Blade?

Could work, could work.

TheLaughingGod
07-10-2011, 23:31
So I had some more thoughts on the Autarch. (Seriously, one of the things that needs to be corrected the most. There is just no place for the Autarch in this codex as he stands)

Regardless of what people have said, not allowing him to be a melee power house is a bit ridiculous. We certainly have the Avatar and the Phoenix Lords, but those are unique and non-customizeable characters that are very expensive. The Autarch should be the customizeable jack of all trades HQ option. The counterpart to the Archon or the Marine Captain.

Fluff-wise, we can justify this by making him as a mentioned before: Similar to an Exarch in that he's guided by ancestor spirits and has near-supernatural power and skill, but the difference being that the Autarch has such personality and charisma and force of will that he dominates the other parts and retains himself, unlike an Exarch who becomes a gestalt.

It would factor in nicely explaining where new Aspects arise from, since the Asurya likely didn't found the Shining Spears or the Warp Spiders or the Shadow Spectres (And yet, there is a Phoenix Lord for the Shadow Spectres, so where did she come from?)
Simple: Autarchs become Phoenix Lords. They have their own unique styles of fighting and wargear and in time, they pass into legend and form their own temples which either catch on, or don't. This explains nicely why statwise, Autarchs are better (When currently they're mortal Eldar and not immortal gestalt spirithosts with lifetimes of experience and training)
This would also allow better weapon options for the Autarch as they wouldn't be limited to basic Aspect gear

So I'm imagining tons and tons of different options, starting as cheap but useful and scaling to various army buffs and/or combat options.

One thing I would LOVE to see, is to make him good at shooting. There are basically not shooting-focused HQs in the game, and someone who could just as easily be a Reaper or a Dragon as a Banshee or Scorpion should have the potential to be a deadly shot.

Another possibility, is that Autarchs walk many paths, some of them not necessarily the Path of the Warrior and those paths could contribute somewhat. Perhaps a system similar to the Sagas of the Space Wolves?

Which leads me to something else interesting: Warlocks and Autarchs. It's entirely reasonable to think that an Autarch would have been a Warlock at one point. Not in every case, but it could happen. Since Warlock/Warriors are tied together, couldn't you have an Autarch with a Singing Spear (PotS actually seems to suggest that one of the Autarchs DOES have one) or a Witchblade? Perhaps giving him the Psyker rule might be going too far (Though, perhaps he could buy an upgrade like "Path of the Warlock" which would grant him the ability to take a Witchblade and the Psyker rule/powers?)

Any ideas how to make him worth taking for shooting?

althathir
07-10-2011, 23:57
Wow look i'm all for Autarchs getting a boost but "There is just no place for the Autarch in this codex as he stands" is an OTT statement.

I mean Autarch's enable reliable reserve lists that most armies don't have access to (or like nids who can't take advantage of it). Its also one of the few hqs that has the option for a cheap melta gun which is pretty impressive shooting wise in the current meta. I understand people wanting the ability to tool him up for close combat, and the saga ideal is a good one but by no means are autarchs that bad. Personally I would rather see farseers power level boosted and have the autarch keep the same basic stats with the ability to purchase buffs so that we still have an inexpensive hq.

titilititi
08-10-2011, 00:31
If you want a HQ that can use a sorcerer sword, then take a Farseer.

According to the fluff, Autarchs are not the monk-warriors whose prayers are the perfection of the killing moves the Phoenix Lords are.
They are the princes of the Eldar Race, who learn the ropes of leadership by crossing many military pathes. They don't use a specific equipment they created alone, and most of all they establish no shrine to teach their fighting way. They are all dedicated to the path of leadership, but in the eldar way, which means they are terrific warriors as much as they know it's the best way to lead their soldiers perfectly into the fire of battle. And they already are. Even if I wouldn't spit on the access to the Executionner, or at less a two-handed power weapon for them...
I'm not a very good player, but I'm satisfied of the services my autarch gives me on the battlefield. It's the Scorpion one, with a fusion gun.He's not very expensive by himself, but the thing with eldar is that you have to think which unit you gonna associate with him, and then you cry for the cost of the whole thing. Most of the times he's deployed with my Dire Avengers. His gun enables him to mess with a tank, which is not bad for the Dire Avengers. And he's buffing them in close combat, the time my Striking Scorpions or my Storm Guardians come to the deathblow.

Their WS is already 6, which is as good as the common chapter master. The bad guys have sometimes a better WS and even Initiative, but it's rare and it's because they've sold their soul to evil...

What should make Autarchs unique is their strategical abilities, and I really hope the next codex will add something more than the reserves. After all, even those foolish mon-keigh commanders from the Imperial Guard can give Orders, why wouldn't our brillant autarchs do something like that, a lot more classy...
I'm an Ulthwe player, but I admit it would be cool if the Autarch was a suffisciently striking choice that you would think it's just an help for the farseer.

TheLaughingGod
08-10-2011, 00:40
If you want a HQ that can use a sorcerer sword, then take a Farseer.

According to the fluff, Autarchs are not the monk-warriors whose prayers are the perfection of the killing moves the Phoenix Lords are.
They are the princes of the Eldar Race, who learn the ropes of leadership by crossing many military pathes. They don't use a specific equipment they created alone, and most of all they establish no shrine to teach their fighting way. They are all dedicated to the path of leadership, but in the eldar way, which means they are terrific warriors as much as they know it's the best way to lead their soldiers perfectly into the fire of battle. And they already are. Even if I wouldn't spit on the access to the Executionner, or at less a two-handed power weapon for them...
I'm not a very good player, but I'm satisfied of the services my autarch gives me on the battlefield. It's the Scorpion one, with a fusion gun.He's not very expensive by himself, but the thing with eldar is that you have to think which unit you gonna associate with him, and then you cry for the cost of the whole thing. Most of the times he's deployed with my Dire Avengers. His gun enables him to mess with a tank, which is not bad for the Dire Avengers. And he's buffing them in close combat, the time my Striking Scorpions or my Storm Guardians come to the deathblow.

Their WS is already 6, which is as good as the common chapter master. The bad guys have sometimes a better WS and even Initiative, but it's rare and it's because they've sold their soul to evil...

What should make Autarchs unique is their strategical abilities, and I really hope the next codex will add something more than the reserves. After all, even those foolish mon-keigh commanders from the Imperial Guard can give Orders, why wouldn't our brillant autarchs do something like that, a lot more classy...
I'm an Ulthwe player, but I admit it would be cool if the Autarch was a suffisciently striking choice that you would think it's just an help for the farseer.

there is very little fluff regarding the Autarchs ATM. They walk the path of command, they have traveled multiple aspects and mastered them and other paths besides. They are unique individuals in that they should have become Exarches but have not due to their will and personal control. They have incredibly ancient suits of armor (apparently unique to them) and are known to use unique and unusal wargear (force shield, eye of wrath, spear of twilight, some sort of singing spear, fusion pistol)

This is all in the background now. I'm merely suggesting a way to justify this all with the bulk of the fluff. As it stands they are strange contradictions background wise and in game they're fragile, not very killy and have little in the way of strategic ability. Plus one reserves is nice... But pretty minor.

Which is why I propose making them a worthy alternative to Farseers, which lets face it, are only going to get even better next book.

titilititi
08-10-2011, 01:42
I'm totally ok with you they need something more, but, as it is already the best a craftworld eldar, still made of blood and flesh, can have, You can't boost his stats.
I admit I'm a fan of the DE Codex, mostly because the items their HQ can have makes them very'romantic' to me (just reading the description of the Piece of Psyche is a real pleasure for example), far before than thinking to their strongness in the game (even if it's not bad at all) , whereas the craftworlders, except Yriel, have, well, nothing!
I also find that's it's a error in the casting that the craftworld who's leaded by a special autarch is Iyanden and not Biel-Tan or Saim-Hann, but I digress.
I really hope they will create a systeme for the strategical abilities of the Autarch, but I'd rather if it's a la carte, like the psychic powers of the farseer, like Side Strike for one unit, +30 pts; Orbital Strike, +30 pts ... you see the thing. So that you can continue to take the guy as "cheap" as it is today...

Drakeus
08-10-2011, 10:35
Piece of Psyche?

titilititi
08-10-2011, 21:25
Sorry if my translation from the frech is not good, In french it is called "éclat de Psyché"...