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10_minute_pie
28-09-2011, 00:50
Wasn't able to find much pertaining to this when I searched the forum, so perhaps someone can shed some light on this situation for me.

During a Wood Elf vs. Wood Elf match up my unit of glade guard caused 2 unsaved wounds to a unit of Treekin. The GG had the Banner of Eternal Flame. If no models in the unit were wounded, as i understand the Flamable rule, 1 would take 2 wounds, which would double to 4 and kill a single model, with no wounds carrying over.

However, the one model has already taken 1 wound. As such how would wounds be assigned?

Option 1: The wounded treekin takes both of the wounds, which then double as per the Flamable rule. The single model takes 4 wounds and dies, with no wounds carrying over to the rest of the unit.

Option 2: The wounded treekin takes 1 wound that doubles, killing him. The treekin beside him takes the next wound, which doubles, leaving him with one wound.

Option: Something completely different??

Mr_Rose
28-09-2011, 01:02
Something completely different: There is no "wounded treekin" - it's the unit that has taken a wound, not any individual model.
The maximum number of wounds each hit can do is equal to the W value of the models hit. Figure out each hit's total wounds, add them together with the left over wound from before, then divide by the W characteristic. Remove that many whole models and the remainder carries over until the next time the unit is wounded.

10_minute_pie
28-09-2011, 02:02
So then the whole unit takes 4 wounds? Kills one out right, then 1 wound goes onto the remaining models (and it one's already taken a wound that would leave it with one wound?)?

If this had been multiple wounds from a weapon with the Multiple Wounds (D6) rule, i assume that would mean each wound scored wound do D6 wound up to a maximum of 3 (the number of wounds/Treekin). You would then total the number of wounds and apply to the unit?

Do you have a reference for this?

papabearshane
28-09-2011, 02:22
4 wounds is one dead model and left over wounds carry over to the next.

As for the d6 wounds you Im not sure there is a faq for it or not Just read some rules and check the facts.

TMATK
28-09-2011, 03:11
You use the rule for "hits inflicting multiple wounds", p45. I'm pretty sure option 2 is the right one.

If, for example, the treekin unit had 2 wounds, the first flammable hit would kill a treekin but the extra wound wouldn't carry over. Same reason that cannonballs don't inflict d6 wounds on a unit for every model it hits.

AMWOOD co
28-09-2011, 03:12
It not an FAQ, it's in the rulebook itself. p45, Hits Inflicting Multiple Wounds followed by Multi-Wound Models And Multi-Would Weapons. Enjoy.

Edit: Aww, TMATK beat me to it.

T10
28-09-2011, 06:39
If, for example, the treekin unit had 2 wounds, the first flammable hit would kill a treekin but the extra wound wouldn't carry over.

This only really works for single hits. If the unit had suffered two hits dealing 1 Wound and 2 Wounds this breaks down: Does the 1 Wound hit kill the model and leave the 2 Wound hit to carry over, or does the 2 Wound hit kill the model and leave the 1 Wound hit to carry over?

You assume that you need to keep track of the individual hit beyond checking to see if the multiple wounds caused are capped when in fact you only need to keep track of Wounds.

In practice you can stop keeping track of individual hits after wounds have been multiplied and capped. It's the capping that deals with issue of excess wounds to a model.

In the example above the last wound will carry over.

-T10

10_minute_pie
28-09-2011, 07:56
4 wounds is one dead model and left over wounds carry over to the next.

As for the d6 wounds you Im not sure there is a faq for it or not Just read some rules and check the facts.

Enlightening suggestions ;)

I've been pouring over the Multiple Wounds and Flamable sections of the rule book, as well as the FAQs. Hadn't reviewed page 45 though (didn't know it existed!).

Having spent 20 minutes pondering it, it still make very little sense, as the section is really poorly written. The "Hits Inflicting Multiple Wounds" section appears to refer to a single hit on a single model, and doesn't do much to elucidate this situation.

The following section however say to "determine hw many wounds are caused on eac model individually (remember that each model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on it's profile). Add up all the wounds caused..."

So basically this sounds like you would multiply each initial wound inflicted by D3, D6, 2 or whatever, but with the exception than none of those multiplied wound can go beyond the models W value (3 here). Then you'd inflict the total number to the unit.

Mr_Rose
28-09-2011, 09:16
Yes, exactly.
So you do three flaming hits with Multiple Wounds (d3) to a unit of 3W flammable dudes that have suffered a single wound already, and roll 1, 2 and 3 for the multiple-wound rolls. The flames double those, but you cap at three W per hit, so you end up causing 2, 3 and 3 wounds with the hits. Adding the "left over" wound from before, that's nine wounds or three whole models with no remainder.

Grimgormx
28-09-2011, 16:42
I agree with Mr Rose, lets say that you hit with a canon a unit of ogres with 3 files, and wound 3, now is time for D6 wounds, you roll 3 dice and get 2,2 and 6, as ogres have only 3 wounds the real result is 2+2+3= 7 wounds, so you remove 2 ogres and 1 is left with a 1 wound counter.

in the treekins they get 2 wound doubled for banner, so is 2+2=4 (no wound is caped) so the unit remove a treekin, and another model carries the extra wound, as a treekin was wounded before then 1 treekin should have a 2 wounds counter.

10_minute_pie
29-09-2011, 00:44
I agree with Mr Rose, lets say that you hit with a canon a unit of ogres with 3 files, and wound 3, now is time for D6 wounds, you roll 3 dice and get 2,2 and 6, as ogres have only 3 wounds the real result is 2+2+3= 7 wounds, so you remove 2 ogres and 1 is left with a 1 wound counter.

Actually Grimgormx, I'd have to disagree with you on this one. Unlike 7th and 6th ed, cannons now have to outright kill Monstrous stuff to penetrate ranks. So in the Ogre example you present you would attempt to wound the first guy. If he is wounded and doesn't save, you'd multiply the wounds (D6, but max 3). Assuming you kill him, then you'd proceed to the next model. This can make a huge difference, especially with trolls and anything else that regenerates.

T10
29-09-2011, 05:09
Put those same Ogres in a building and the unit suffers D6 hits from the cannon.

-T10

Grimgormx
29-09-2011, 19:05
10 minute You are completely right I forgot that, sorry I choose an outdated example

H33D
29-09-2011, 20:22
DONT put ogres in a building...

warchief
03-10-2011, 14:30
Hey, to continue this what happens when a burning magical catapult hits unit of 6 tree kins. 2 of them are wounded with failed saving throws. Now he rolls from those two dice a a total of 9 wounds and then what will happen.

a) Whole unit is killed because flammable doubles it to 18 wounds as total.

b) 3 first models take 3 wounds and then flammable is counted to double the wounds but they don't carry over and just killing 3 models.

c) Wounds are split 2 to each to kill 4 models wounding another one.

d) Only two models die as they were only wounded by the catapult.

Imo first one appears to be the one that's after the rules but it just sounds stupid when 100 point warmachine can kill my toughest unit with one shot without that much luck :(

Mr_Rose
03-10-2011, 15:03
Two wounding hits = a max of 2*W value of the unit in actual damage. Add any leftovers from the last time they were hurt, divide by the W value again then remove that many models. You should also roll each hits wounds separately and double the rolls individually.

a) I have no idea where you got this one, since the multiple-wounds rules specifically say you can't deal more damage per hit than the W value of the models hit.

b) You hit and wounded two models, how are you suddenly now inflicting wounds on three?

c) What? Do treekin only have 2W each then? And how are you killing more than two; you only wounded twice?

d) Bingo. The way the maths work out, rollover wounds can't ever make a unit lose more models than were actually wounded by multi-wounding hits; they just make it far more likely that the models that are wounded will die.

10_minute_pie
03-10-2011, 21:57
Don't have my BRB on me right now, but I believe that one of the wounded treekin will take D6 x 2 wounds, to a max of 3 (probably killing it, but only that one model even if you roll 6 and double it to 12). But other wounded treekin only suffers 1 x 2 wounds due to the Flamable rule, since only the model under the hole takes multiple wounds in 8th edition.

Grimgormx
04-10-2011, 19:09
A catapult hits and wounds only those models under the templete, so lets say in that exampl the shoot hit 3 models, one with st 9, and 2 with st 3, then you roll to 3 dice (3 hits) to wound, lets say that you get to wound 2 treekin, then you roll 1d6 to see howmany wounds you do to each treekin, lets say you get a 2 and a 4, you kill one model with that 4 wounds causing a real total of 3 wounds ( you cant do more wounds to a miniature than wounds it has) the other treekin gets 2 wounds as those are flamable then are 4 wounds caped to 3, so you just kill 2 treekin.

thats at least what I think

Mr_Rose
04-10-2011, 21:05
Yeah, the 10 min. pie is right; the multiple wounds rule for stone throwers can only affect a maximum of one model per shot; the one under the hole.
So the maximum two wounding hits on treekin with flaming rocks can do is five wounds; (d6x2) capped to three, plus two more for the single-wound hit, after doubling for fire.

Which brings up the situation where you wound more than two of them; three wounding hits on the same unit cap at seven wounds which is only two dead, normally. Not accounting for additional left-overs.