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Huan Qu'itt
28-09-2011, 12:04
we've got Empire rumours thread but several people mentioned VC coming first! so i decided to gather all the tidbits we've had so far

Harry already hinted in several threads that it's VC, Empire and Dwarves next:


I said : I had VC, Empire and Dwarves in the frame.

ihavetoomuchminis and Hastings heard similar things:


And VC come in January. Believe it or not. :D


The WD VC article should be viewed as a stop gap between books, terrorgheist will be in proper print much quicker than some people may imagine

Hastings also mentioned new Krell mini coming:


Wait till you see the other new vc stuff new krell anyone? :D

some time ago flesh golems and black coach appeared in the rumour-mill:


Yeah but you wouldn't say no to a plastic black coach and some flesh Golems would you. :D


Ah yes, I think Hastings mentioned the Flesh Golems.
I am quite exited about a new VC book

He did. The concept art for them is very cool. Half way between a big zombie and a ghoul with lots of stitching, :D

Note : The existence of concept art does not a mini make.

both rumours are confirmed in this thread:





(unless i'm reading too much into Harry's comment)

Nope, you are reading fine.


It seems that the Black Coach will be a dual kit.


About the Monstruous infantry unit, i've been told that they are more of Big ghouls than big zombies. Oh, and the models can have something no MI in the game have yet..... maybe something like the terrorgheist, but smaller? Don't know, just guessing.


and a little tidbit from Mirbeau:


Not Harry but... rotters, the lot of them. Well, with an exception. :p

to summarize things:

- VC are next army book to be released (Harry, 75hastings69), in january (ihavetoomuchminis)
- new unit "flesh golems" - something like a mix of large ghoul and zombie with a lot of stitches (Harry, 75hastings69, ihavetoomuchminis)
- new plastic black coach mini (Harry), dual kit (ihavetoomuchminis)
- new krell and female vampire minis (75hastings69)
- and some old rumour concerning new plastic black knights - still waiting to be confirmed

credits for all rumours go to Harry, 75hastings69, ihavetoomuchminis and Mirbeau. Thanks guys!

if anyone knows something more, please share, i'll be updating this post

m1acca1551
28-09-2011, 12:07
Thank you for the summary, i will have to keep an eye on this thread to see what happens.

silverstu
28-09-2011, 12:09
Useful to pull the VC rumours together. I think Hastings may have suggested/implied new Black Knights when the Terrorgheist release was still a rumour.

Tregar
28-09-2011, 14:31
If true, this is great news. Vampire Counts aren't the weakest book, but they are one of the most boring at the moment. This is of course in my opinion, backed up by the fact at a 1-day tournament last weekend I faced 3 Vampire Counts armies in 3 games, and the games were pretty samey (I kill everything except the Drakenhof deathstar, the enemy Drakenhof deathstar kills as much as my stuff as it can) and quite depressing! Thanks for the rumours :)

Horace35
28-09-2011, 14:35
Hopefully the thread can weedle out a few more rumours from our rumour mongers too :)

theJ
28-09-2011, 15:16
Hopefully the thread can weedle out a few more rumours from our rumour mongers too :)

such as whether or not it will be possible to have a necromancer as your general* :)

I think the rumour about Black Knights first popped up when Stickmonkey mistook some LotR/WotR stuff for 'em. The fact they're kinda needed has since ensured the rumour hasn't died down properly.
It's possible I could've missed some vital post somewhere, though, and as said, making new ones would make a lot of sense.

*been hoping for that since I started playing fantasy.

Sithlord
28-09-2011, 15:29
they better redone the plastic zombies, hoping that their size are the same as those zombies that are pulling the corpse cart (and make it's number to be 40 per box dammit, I know very well that zombies are going to be 2pts)

therat
28-09-2011, 15:32
such as whether or not it will be possible to have a necromancer as your general* :)

*been hoping for that since I started playing fantasy.

I've been missing that since the 7th ed book was released. Master necros gave a different dynamic to the army, one I (and many others) hope returns. You could always pull out a copy of the 6th ed book and run one in a friendly game.

As a VC player, I'm pretty excited by this, but my friend plays Brets and Dwarfs. They really ought to get some love before VC. Nevertheless, if GW wants to make me a new VC book, I won't fight 'em!



(and make it's number to be 40 per box dammit, I know very well that zombies are going to be 2pts)

No, if they keep the same stat line I fully expect 1.5pt zombies. :evilgrin:

Sithlord
28-09-2011, 15:45
well 1.5 pts or 2pts same anyway :p I just want GW remodelled the current zombies (as they are appear as large as a space marine :p ) hoping their size reduce to the size of zombies available on corpse cart and also I hope they put 40 models inside a single box (50 are better :p ) because largely we know zombies are going to be well... 2 pts (or 1.5pts :p )

loveless
28-09-2011, 15:48
I'm hoping Zombies get the Clanrat treatment - 20 to a box for the same price as they are now.

I'm also hoping that Zombies become useful in the next book...

Midevil216
28-09-2011, 16:19
Wishlisting here but what do you think about this for Zombies....
Zombies have Poisoined Attacks on a 5+ rather then a 6+ and for every unsaved wound caused by a Poisoined attack a modle is added to the zombie unit.

Just a thought, what do you guys think.

(EDIT) I guess with a WS2 zombies will need 5+ to hit most of the time anyway, either all hits by zombies are poison or leave poison on 6+, I would tend to leave all hits by zombies are poison.

de Selby
28-09-2011, 16:29
Damn it, I don't want a new book. I've only just got around to assembling my army for the current one. I waited for better zombies and black knights and eventually bought elsewhere, but I suspect any new kits will be monsters anyway.

Now I'll have to pay £20+ or whatever it will be for a new book, just to find out my army is invalid. This is exhausting...

Little Joe
28-09-2011, 16:40
I would like a new army book, the current one lacks and is boring in 8th. That would mean a lot of new special rules are needed.
I am not to keen on flesh golems but will remain positive until I see some pictures and rules to make me cry. Now black knights I would like a lot, and some nice bat swarms while at it.

Most important to me is actually how base sizes will turn out (the old coach does not fit), will they get supersized like the zombie dragon for some units and how are they supposed to survive at all in game (zombie dragon concerns here mainly due to templates)?

But since my army is mostly in bitz right now nice background and modelling articles would also be much appreciated.

The current zombies are fine with me, ,they are a modellers dream and I would not like mono-pose right foot to the front models all the way. Actually I always liked that you could put almost any model in this unit after you attack it with a hobby knife.
I will laugh when they go to boxes of ten, I think they will get the orc warriors treatment.

loveless
28-09-2011, 16:41
I suspect any new kits will be monsters anyway.


I'd guess the opposite myself, given that VC just got their massive monster in the form of the Terrorgheist/Zombie Dragon kit.

I also have a strong suspicion that the Zombie Dragon may be getting a boost to accomodate it's new super-sized form.

Tokamak
28-09-2011, 16:49
Wishlisting for zombies, similar kit like clanrats, IE simple and cheap in bulk. If they can manage to make them look like those on the corpsechart then I'm really happy.



I'm hoping Zombies get the Clanrat treatment - 20 to a box for the same price as they are now.


Haha great minds... I mainly wish for this so that VC players don't skimp on having an excess of zombies so they don't have to try to proxy it with dishes or empty bases.

Lord Dan
28-09-2011, 16:59
I want zombies with T3 and poisoned attacks. The rest of the book can stay the same.

Mcbruce
28-09-2011, 17:11
Plastic black knights would make me very happy as would a new female vampire - slowly assembling a lahmian army at the mo. Less fixation of the Von Carsteins in the book would be good too, more emphasis on the different bloodlines.
For those saying zombies should have poisoned attacks - no. Ghouls have poison already, there is no reason for zombies to have it. Points drop and something to represent them attacking even if you cut their arms/legs/heads off.

No-One
28-09-2011, 17:12
agreed with Dan, it'd be nice to run zombie hordes that're actually worth something for once

Lord Dan
28-09-2011, 17:14
For those saying zombies should have poisoned attacks - no. Ghouls have poison already, there is no reason for zombies to have it. Points drop and something to represent them attacking even if you cut their arms/legs/heads off.

You're right. Drop poisoned attacks from ghouls, make ghouls Alive! again, drop them to one attack and give them frenzy.

Then give zombies T3 and poisoned attacks.

Harry
28-09-2011, 17:36
'Ere we go. :D


.... and plastic black coach (unless i'm reading too much into Harry's post).
Nope, you are reading fine.

Nice round up.

VC my favorite army for painting.

EDIT: BRING IT ON! :D

Sarevok
28-09-2011, 17:48
I'm guessing bloodlines will return, but VC powers will suffer a major cutback, if not go away completely.
The Vampires released with the VC book didn't have any specific bloodline mentioned, but the plastic Zombie Dragon ones did.

Wishlisting- Neferata and/or Walach return please. More SC than just Von Carts. Plastic Abyssal terror with two of the other bloodlines maybe?

Midevil216
28-09-2011, 17:53
Plastic black knights would make me very happy as would a new female vampire - slowly assembling a lahmian army at the mo. Less fixation of the Von Carsteins in the book would be good too, more emphasis on the different bloodlines.
For those saying zombies should have poisoned attacks - no. Ghouls have poison already, there is no reason for zombies to have it. Points drop and something to represent them attacking even if you cut their arms/legs/heads off.

The whole idea of zombies is that they bite you, infect you, and you turn into the undead(zombie), poison attacks represent this perfectly.
Also, you must not watch many zombie movies because when you destroy the brain the zombie dies, so cutting its head off would kill it.

minionboy
28-09-2011, 18:00
Damn it, I don't want a new book.

I don't think you have much to worry about, the VC book is not that old, March of 2008. Bretonnia are from 2004, Wood Elves 2005 and Dwarfs late 2005, even the High Elves and Empire from 2007 are still older, so with 5 older books, and 3 of those in much more need of an update, I wouldn't put any bets on Vampire Counts skipping to the front of the line.

loveless
28-09-2011, 18:04
I'm guessing bloodlines will return, but VC powers will suffer a major cutback, if not go away completely.


I am severely hoping they don't bring Bloodlines back, but maintain the current power set-up (just tone/trim it down).

Bloodlines are a background thing - a player can still create a vampire of choice utilizing the variety of powers (and in some cases, magic items) available currently.

Do we really need the hand-holding back?

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the different bloodlines, I just felt it was a good move to let the players craft their own bloodlines without having to adhere to a predetermined power list. You can still make your Strigoi and Blood Dragons, but you can also have a beguiling beast or a magic-spewing swordsman.

Model-wise, bring on any and all bloodlines - the new Strigoi in the Terrorgheist kit is amazing, and the latest plastic character show high potential for new Lahmians and Necrarchs.

Rules-wise, I'll always prefer the mix-and-match route - I can read the fluff well-enough to determine what I need to combine to make one of the "big" bloodlines.

Sarevok
28-09-2011, 18:04
I don't think you have much to worry about, the VC book is not that old, March of 2008. Bretonnia are from 2004, Wood Elves 2005 and Dwarfs late 2005, even the High Elves and Empire from 2007 are still older, so with 5 older books, and 3 of those in much more need of an update, I wouldn't put any bets on Vampire Counts skipping to the front of the line.

Orcs skipped to the front of the line

fact is some armies get more books than others (like Space marines for 40k)

Midevil216
28-09-2011, 18:05
I am thinking that all unsaved wounds from zombies should add one model to the zombie unit. Wether or not they have the "Poisoned Attack" special rule dosn't matter but I do think for every kill they get one is added to the unit. And maybe let Zombies attack in one rank more then usual if in hoard formation. So a unit of 50 Zombies will attack in 4 ranks as opposed to three for the normal hoard rule.

Just a thought....

(EDIT) The 50 man Zombie unit would have to be in horde formation for the rule to apply obivoulsy 10X5 for example)

loveless
28-09-2011, 18:10
Orcs skipped to the front of the line

fact is some armies get more books than others (like Space marines for 40k)

Some armies are more heavily-affected by edition changes as well.

All 8th Edition did for Vampires was to underscore the already ****-poor internal balance (well, that and negate some of the "OMG SO STRONG" complaints).

I still say the biggest hint that VC were on the way was the lack of magic cards when the Zombie Dragon, Banshee, and Wraith kits were released. This is the first time in 8th that we've had a new plastic kit release without either a new book or magic cards to accompany it.

tw1386
28-09-2011, 18:12
Thats the thing though, zombies in this world aren't your zombies in the Warhammer world. Zombies are not self replicating, disease spreading, world ending nightmares that are portrayed in the movies and what have you. I have yet to see any fluff that states otherwise and I hope it remains so.

The zombies in the fluff have always just been that implacable shambling horde that never gets stopped unless the necromancer / vampire controlling them gets killed. All zombies are are the recently raised dead who claw, bite and rip at their opponents while taking massive amounts of casualties yet always moving forward.

Anyways! VC is my main army and I can't wait for a new book, as they really need it right now. Badly. I have yet to see anybody bring something different to the table besides the big one (VC list).

I think the reason the VC were so high up on the priority lust is because they knew they have to change something (mostly points) for 8th Ed. Because they are in a pretty dire place. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe VC are now officially have some of the oldest models around, barring the stuff released back in '08.

Empire complain about their knights!!!? Ha, take a look at the black knights, fell bats, bat swarms, wight king bsb, black coach (despite it's age I like the model),

Scribe of Khorne
28-09-2011, 18:19
Second on the lack of Bloodlines please. Let fluff stay in the fluff, an open system is better for building things as players see fit.

Any idea on the who is writing the book? Since Kelly did the new rules I would guess it would be him?

Midevil216
28-09-2011, 18:24
[I][QUOTE=tw1386;5810202]Thats the thing though, zombies in this world aren't your zombies in the Warhammer world. Zombies are not self replicating, disease spreading, world ending nightmares that are portrayed in the movies and what have you. I have yet to see any fluff that states otherwise and I hope it remains so.


Yeah, but wouldn't be cool if they did...;)


I agree with this, Black Knights are so long over due for new models its rediculous. I would love to use them in my army but I not going to buy those horrid models they have now, and no I dont want to nor have the time to convert them.

Andy p
28-09-2011, 18:27
Wishlisting here but what do you think about this for Zombies....
Zombies have Poisoined Attacks on a 5+ rather then a 6+ and for every unsaved wound caused by a Poisoined attack a modle is added to the zombie unit.

Just a thought, what do you guys think.

(EDIT) I guess with a WS2 zombies will need 5+ to hit most of the time anyway, either all hits by zombies are poison or leave poison on 6+, I would tend to leave all hits by zombies are poison.

I say yay to this, but when I think about it from a fluff point of view it is actually less apt than some might think.

Obviously fluff isnt the thing to balance the units around, im not suggesting that, but the fluff of WFB zombies is that they are powered by dark magic, it isnt a disease they can just spread on to living humans.

Unless they rewrote the fluff to make either their animation involve a dark magical based disease, or that the dark magic merely spreads to others after they die.

I know that seems a silly little thing to mention, but it just popped into my head. :D

Overall I like the idea.

ps: Flesh Golems sound daft....

pps: bug55er, tw1386 beat me to it.

Midevil216
28-09-2011, 18:30
I say yay to this, but when I think about it from a fluff point of view it is actually less apt than some might think.

Obviously fluff isnt the thing to balance the units around, im not suggesting that, but the fluff of WFB zombies is that they are powered by dark magic, it isnt a disease they can just spread on to living humans.

Unless they rewrote the fluff to make either their animation involve a dark magical based disease, or that the dark magic merely spreads to others after they die.

I know that seems a silly little thing to mention, but it just popped into my head. :D

Overall I like the idea.

ps: Flesh Golems sound daft....

pps: bug55er, tw1386 beat me to it.

Yeah, I know its not "Fluffy" with WH zombies but it was just a thought. And yes I am onboard with Flesh Golems.

Harry
28-09-2011, 18:33
ps: Flesh Golems sound daft....
In fairness I am not sure that is what they are ... That phrase is just one that has been used in rumours here for years ....

.... to describe an unknown big zombie like creature on a 40mm base.:D

BlackDow
28-09-2011, 18:36
big zombie like creature on a 40mm base or Flesh Golem
hard to see why the second one caught on ^^
I'm all for a new book that hopefully gives us a chance to have more than one build. Also, now its more like "move crap forward, magic, move crap forward, fight." weeeeiiii
at least give us a shooting phase GW!!

Scammel
28-09-2011, 18:37
Nope, you are reading fine.


This can't be Harry! The usual response is a sly wink replete with mysterious hand-waving, multi-coloured smoke and some text which suggest the original person asking is on-the-right-lines-but-not-quite-there-yet!

Just harmless poking of course, your rumours are always appreciated and damn near always right Mr Pieman!

Deff Mekz
28-09-2011, 18:38
I suppose I'll be the first too say, with two undead books within a year, Gw's skull fetish must be at a all time high. :D

Deff

Belakor
28-09-2011, 18:52
I suppose I'll be the first too say, with two undead books within a year, Gw's skull fetish must be at a all time high. :D

Deff


Not really! Empire has yet to be released...

Urgat
28-09-2011, 18:58
In fairness I am not sure that is what they are ... That phrase is just one that has been used in rumours here for years ....

.... to describe an unknown big zombie like creature on a 40mm base.:D

Zombie ogre?

tw1386
28-09-2011, 19:16
Ohh VC are getting monstrous infantry? ohhhhhh.... ohhhh. Sorry i just feinted.

Lungboy
28-09-2011, 19:30
Heinrich Kemmler needs to be brought back, much like Arkhan was.

loveless
28-09-2011, 19:43
Heinrich Kemmler needs to be brought back, much like Arkhan was.

Given that Krell is getting updated, wouldn't it make sense for Kemmler to get updated as well?

theJ
28-09-2011, 20:00
Yeah, but wouldn't be cool if they did...;)


Not really... If you want fluffily awesome Zombies, you'd give them a regeneration save... which increases for every necromancy spell cast on them in the last friendly magic phase. :evilgrin:
EDIT: Oh, and get rid of that silly "can't include characters" nonsense.

Flesh Golems: "Golem" created by stitching/fusing together bits and pieces from several corpses, forming a massive superzombieabberationthingy.*
They might not fit all that well in with the vampires, but they sure do fit well with necromancers... coupled with the return of Krell, could this be a sign of the return of the proper necromantic hordes of ages(ish) past?

*presumed

loveless
28-09-2011, 20:02
Actually, stitching components of other creatures together falls into the Necrarch camp looking at the 6th edition book...wasn't it in the Necrarch section that showed notes and images of trying to create some sort of Undead FrankenFaerie(TM)?

Przemcio251
28-09-2011, 20:07
Hmmm from what i remeber Krell was affilated with certain Heinrich K... so if krell will be back maybe H.K. will also appear...

Any way W O Chaos also got some new minis and no cards...

BlackDow
28-09-2011, 20:07
it was a sprite thing with spider legs and bat wings. So we might get something like a murder or sprites? ^^
i agree that i would love a Necro army with propper zombies, right now they are a joke

Bloodmire
28-09-2011, 20:19
I would like to see a new VC book in the near future. Everyone is right when they say VC have very few builds. Players can always vary from that, but when playing competitively, there isn't much choice without someone exploiting the obvious weaknesses. Flesh Golems for the win. If Zombies get reduced in points, they should stay the same. If they decide to give them poison or a small regenerative save, maybe they should stay at 4 points. If they get both, they should be 6pts easy. Fear took a big hit in 8th, so maybe special rules need to be changed to accommodate the reality of the undead smacking you upside the face.

Now I am going to look like a dumby, I know and own the Krell model - what what's the story behind him?

loveless
28-09-2011, 20:20
Any way W O Chaos also got some new minis and no cards...

Not that I've seen...

They got some models they can use in Storm of Magic and a few characters, but they haven't had a "featured" release like Vampire Counts did (which was more akin to the Skaven, High Elves, and Daemons releases imo).

defunct
28-09-2011, 20:35
Damn it. No Black Knights again it seems. Guessing because they are not being hinted at _right now_ unlike monstrous infantry & black coach, which I'm not really interested in unless zombies and/or Black Knights get updated first or at the same time.
Damn it.

Not really looking forward to a new book either, or rather being careful not to get excited because worst case scenario = vampiric powers destroyed. :D

Anyway, always nice reading rumours so THANKS!

Demrush
28-09-2011, 20:39
Actually, stitching components of other creatures together falls into the Necrarch camp looking at the 6th edition book...wasn't it in the Necrarch section that showed notes and images of trying to create some sort of Undead FrankenFaerie(TM)?

Yes!! And it has been a hell of a long time I've been waiting in order to build a solid necrarch-based VC army. Krell is coming you say? BRING IT ON!

As a side note, I doubt new zombies will be coming. The kit isn't that bad...as others have said, its a modeler's dream, it allows for great pose-ability and conversions...I see a lot of other units from VC and other races needing much more work than them.

Finally, if we get 1-2 new lords/characters, a new black coach, a new kit and a new book, I'll be more than happy, especially considering the recent remake of the banshee, crypt wraith, necromancer and totally new terrorgheist/zombie dragon!

ihavetoomuchminis
28-09-2011, 20:45
About the Monstruous infantry unit, i've been told that they are more of Big ghouls than big zombies. Oh, and the models can have something no MI in the game have yet..... maybe something like the terrorgheist, but smaller? Don't know, just guessing.

I've realized that Maelstrom no longer has the VC battalion. Don't know if it's just a mistake, or a clue.

Sarevok
28-09-2011, 20:53
if Kemmler goes back maybe Neccers will be more powerful too

unless kemmler is just a hero choice lv2 Necro or something

baphomael
28-09-2011, 21:00
If true, this is great news. Vampire Counts aren't the weakest book, but they are one of the most boring at the moment. This is of course in my opinion, backed up by the fact at a 1-day tournament last weekend I faced 3 Vampire Counts armies in 3 games, and the games were pretty samey (I kill everything except the Drakenhof deathstar, the enemy Drakenhof deathstar kills as much as my stuff as it can) and quite depressing! Thanks for the rumours :)

I'd say its one of the weakest books *because* its boring - to play competitively your choices are rather limited. While they arnt bad choices per se, its like your penalised for straying away from them.

VC need tweaking if only to make them a well rounded list with various options that are worth taking. When its barely worth taking skeletons and zombies in a VC army, something really isnt right - aside from the vampires themselves, arn't those units meant to be, kinda, the crux of the army's theme?

pointyteeth
28-09-2011, 21:02
Now I am going to look like a dumby, I know and own the Krell model - what what's the story behind him?

To put it in short form: he's a Champion of Chaos that Heinrich Kemmler raised as his lieutenant.

Urgat
28-09-2011, 21:03
unless kemmler is just a hero choice lv2 Necro or something

Considering his fluff, that would be absurd... So yeah, it's possible. Cynical, me? No, never :angel:

ihavetoomuchminis
28-09-2011, 21:06
Considering his fluff, that would be absurd... So yeah, it's possible. Cynical, me? No, never :angel:

We Don't forget Teclis making a pact with Daemons.

Eddie Chaos
28-09-2011, 21:27
I'm gunna wish list for new cheap zombies, flesh golems, black knights and a black coach


and I guess flesh golems would look like this http://www.pjlighthouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/dota-warcraft-pudge-papercraft-fresh-meat.jpg

Midevil216
28-09-2011, 21:27
Not really... If you want fluffily awesome Zombies, you'd give them a regeneration save... which increases for every necromancy spell cast on them in the last friendly magic phase. :evilgrin:
EDIT: Oh, and get rid of that silly "can't include characters" nonsense.

Flesh Golems: "Golem" created by stitching/fusing together bits and pieces from several corpses, forming a massive superzombieabberationthingy.*
They might not fit all that well in with the vampires, but they sure do fit well with necromancers... coupled with the return of Krell, could this be a sign of the return of the proper necromantic hordes of ages(ish) past?

*presumed

I agree with the character thing.

Mr. Ultra
28-09-2011, 21:35
Dreadfleet, new Blood Bowl, now new Vampire book? Too much hapiness for my old heart...

Harry
28-09-2011, 21:38
and I guess flesh golems would look like this http://www.pjlighthouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/dota-warcraft-pudge-papercraft-fresh-meat.jpgNot so much.:D

Scribe of Khorne
28-09-2011, 21:41
Not so much.:D

Thats good to hear, doesnt fit with my image of the Vampires current range. Everything is more 'starved'/hungry looking.

Skeletons, obviously.
Ghouls.
Corpse Cart Zombies (which I hope is what we get if Zombies are ever redone)

I like the lean esthetic going on, and would hope that bulky ogre sized things can stay in the armies they currently exist. Skaven, Ogres, even Orcs or Chaos.

Urgat
28-09-2011, 21:43
I think the flesh golem will look like that (http://www.thedailygreen.com/cm/thedailygreen/images/MR/lady-gaga-meat-dress-lg.jpg).

Deff Mekz
28-09-2011, 21:45
Let me guess the flesh golems will look something like the CC zombies in that they will be "stiched" (sp?) with stakes.

Deff

Edit: @ Urgat; Win! :D

stashman
28-09-2011, 21:47
Golems look like zombie ogres

Gekiganger
28-09-2011, 21:48
Heinrich Kemmler needs to be brought back, much like Arkhan was.

Ruleswise I agree, I'm not that fussed about his model though. I think it's still one of my faves - time just doesn't seem to touch it.

Mirbeau
28-09-2011, 21:49
and a little tidbit from Mirbeau:


Not Harry but... rotters, the lot of them. Well, with an exception.


credits for all rumours go to Harry, 75hastings69, ihavetoomuchminis and Mirbeau. Thanks guys!

if anyone knows something more, please share, i'll be updating this post

Ah, I'm afraid to say my comment back then was in regards to the dual fleshy monster kit they recently got. Though at the time I thought the wraths/banshees would be released together in a box of 5 :D.

I haven't more to add, besides that I've heard that the hobby team have been repainting a lot of miniatures purple for this release! the poor gits. :D

Harry
28-09-2011, 21:53
I haven't more to add, besides that I've heard that the hobby team have been repainting a lot of miniatures purple for this release! the poor gits. :D
Warlock purple? :D

Deff Mekz
28-09-2011, 21:56
Ah like Count Noctilus's ship! :D I wonder if he'll be mentioned in the fluff, I hope so.

Deff

El Antiguo Guardián
28-09-2011, 21:57
I heard something about the return of Zakarías, Kemmler and Krell...
But no more.

Mirbeau
28-09-2011, 22:02
Warlock purple? :D

That or Liche :D

popisdead
28-09-2011, 22:06
New Krell!!!

I hope they get Brian Nelson to do a new Kemmler too!

BramGaunt
28-09-2011, 22:18
In fairness I am not sure that is what they are ... That phrase is just one that has been used in rumours here for years ....

.... to describe an unknown big zombie like creature on a 40mm base.:D

Interesting Idea. One of my people mentioned that Black Knights would be 'held back' for a major release. My response was 'that's gonna take some time, I guess?', and he said 'you might be wrong.' That was back in July. He also mentioned a plastic set for undead/chaos trolls.

Sedekiel
28-09-2011, 22:23
The skeletons are out tonight

The skeletons are out tonight,
They march about the street
With bony bodies, bony heads
And bony hands and feet.

Bony bony bony bones
With nothing in between
Up and down and all around
They march on Halloween.

Wouldnt it be nc to have the new book on Halloween...:skull:

SideshowLucifer
28-09-2011, 22:38
I would be thrilled if Kemmler got rereleased. He i by far one of my favorite characters in the whole warhamer universe.

silverstu
28-09-2011, 22:51
I would be thrilled if Kemmler got rereleased. He i by far one of my favorite characters in the whole warhamer universe.

Yeah- Revenge of the Lichemaster is a really strong story- bringing him back with Krell with new sculpts would be fantastic [although I really liked the old sculpt].
Like everyone else I'm hoping for news of new Black Knights. Plastic Black Coach and these flesh golems sound pretty cool..

Usopreme
28-09-2011, 22:54
Interesting that they would do Vampires before a book like wood elves, but I honestly think it makes sense because of the vampire book just does not fit into this edition very well, wood elves may be underpowered but they have less things that are just completely against what 8th is all about.

Things I want but know wont get:
Nagash
Abhorash

More Plausible things I'd like to see:

More Vampires, I was so stoked when the last book came out with Blood Knights, vamps that weren't heroes or lords that could be taken.

Get rid of crumble, I like to use the excellent stats of my general, not hide him in the back because a stray cannonball can end the game.

Aluinn
28-09-2011, 23:05
Here's hoping we can finally take an army without a Vampire general with the new rules. The rumored re-releases of certain famous Necromancers/Wights bodes well in that department :). I still have to cross my fingers that it'll also be possible without a special character, of course.

Morkash
28-09-2011, 23:09
Undead Trolls? That seems like Flesh Golems, no?

Eddie Chaos
29-09-2011, 00:27
Not so much.:D

this makes me happy

Sarevok
29-09-2011, 00:40
Bear in mind different releases take up different amount of time
Woodies and Brets would be pretty major releases, VC would be a quickie
GW isn't likely to make major releases one after the other.

Its like when in 40k you got the Tau Empire and 5th edition Nid books before Dark Eldar

Doommasters
29-09-2011, 02:26
Just making Necromancers viable gain would make a big difference IMO, also bloodlines haha.

The dream of taking a combat lord over a caster lord...wakes up DAM

m1acca1551
29-09-2011, 02:28
Would love to run my necromancer army again, hopefully Heinrich gets a new model, be a pity if he didn't.

I hope it's not going to be Von Carstein themed as usual, Manfred is okay as he is still around... but vlad and konrad are gone

TsukeFox
29-09-2011, 03:45
Nooo-! Well ya skeletons do need to fixed-but come on

WE, Brets, & Dwarfs first-!!!

Sanai
29-09-2011, 06:52
Skeletons need a points drop to bring them more in line with TK skellies, and need a reason to take them rather than ghouls other than standard access.
Zombies need.... a complete re-write. The way they are now, I would actually spend points to put them in the enemy army, as they would make me win combats and crumble the enemy VC to death. They are utterly worthless.
Zombies also need new minis, to match them to the corpse cart zombies. The current zombies are way too comical looking.
Black Knights, the Black Coach and Wight Kings need new minis, as the old ones are so badly dated that no one actually uses the metal black knight minis anymore, and most people convert wight kings or buy them from other ranges. Black Coach conversions are more common than the metal black coach.
Fell bats, Bat Swarms, Dire Wolves and Spirit Hosts need to be better, and need new minis (except the dire wolves). They are currently almost never used, except the spirit hosts which are only used for the purposes of the wind of undeath spell, and dire wolves which are sometimes used to screen blood knights.

Necromancers and corpse carts are also shelf campers, as they aren't very effective. (Necromancers not doing anything that a vampire cant do better, and corpse carts being big targets that waste points better spent elsewhere)

Zombie dragons are also pretty sub-optimal, leading alot of people to use the Terrorgheist instead.

The rare choices are all pretty effective, as are grave guard ad ghouls.

So, in summary, the rules need- Better zombies, cheaper skeletons, better dire wolves, better bat swarms, better fell bats, better spirit hosts,more effective necromancers, more effective corpse carts, better zombie dragon stats.
The new models needed are- Black Knights, Black Coach, Zombies, Fell Bats, Bat swarms, spirit hosts, wight kings.

However, rules wise, the vampire counts aren't really suffering as badly as people make them out to be. They are still in the mid-higher tiers of power levels, its more that alot of people feel obliged to use a cookie cutter list.

Okay, so compared to what we need, we appear to be getting-
Black Coach Mini (good, wonder if it will be like the monster/war machine kits that have two options for what it is?)
Krell Mini (Not bad, but really needed? At least it will provide a decent wight king mini)
Flesh Golems (Pretty cool if the minis are well designed, and if the rules are good. Hope they aren't too powerful or they will turn into the new drakenhoff guard. Potential to have abominably bad looking minis, if the rat ogre kit is any indication *shudders*)
Black Knights (More a wishlist than a truly accurate rumour, but pretty good thing to bet on seeing as how needed they are, and that each army book comes with several plastic kits, I could see them as being pretty likely anyway)
Female Vampire (Probably just the aristocratic vampire that already got released)

Urgat
29-09-2011, 07:11
Yeah- Revenge of the Lichemaster is a really strong story- bringing him back with Krell with new sculpts would be fantastic [although I really liked the old sculpt].

Kemmler had a very good sculpt but... his pose always made me think he was an exhibitionist flashing his goods from under his coat...




Black Coach Mini (good, wonder if it will be like the monster/war machine kits that have two options for what it is?)

You've just got it: dragon/terrorghest.

ihavetoomuchminis
29-09-2011, 08:30
It seems that the Black Coach will be a dual kit.

theJ
29-09-2011, 09:10
It seems that the Black Coach will be a dual kit.

Quite far from surprising, but it's always nice to have confirmation(ish).

Still, the question remains... what would it be combined with?

plantagenet
29-09-2011, 10:05
Will be interesting to see if we see the return of Vampire Lords and Vampire Counts in the Lord Section.

I agree the return of higher level necromancers would be great to see as well. Always kind of wished there was a Wight Lord levle character as well.

I agree point drop on skeletons and zombies is also needed. Interested to see what the VC spell attribute is going to be as well

TheZombieSquig
29-09-2011, 10:17
Interested to see what the VC spell attribute is going to be as well

If the SOM cards are anything to go by, there won't be one.

The OK cataclysm cards did reference Bloodgruel before the new book/lore was released, but I guess it was a shorter timeframe in between.

SteelTitan
29-09-2011, 10:29
@ Dual kits: I guess we are well spoiled with two dual kits in such a small time frame; the black coach / ??? and the zombie dragon / terrorgheist. I still hope they make the dragon a little better though.

As to the second model in the black coach kit; wouldn't it be unlikely if it was another chariot model? I mean, we already have the coach and the corpse cart and there is little that yet another chariot model could add (VC isn't exactly a chariot army so it also wouldn't be as appropriate). Maybe some sort of warmachine / Casket of Soul type of unit? Wouldn't that make more sense?

@ Lore attribute: I would be REALLY surprised if VC didn't have a lore attribute. It's the new trend; all lores have one so highly unlikely that VC will not have one.

Maybe it will be something with raising zombies (?) to differentiate it from the 'repair effect' of the Tomb Kings (IIRC anyway). I don't know how overpowered it would be to raise new units of d6+x zombies with every successful spel but...


All in all, I'm happy with any change. I love the theme of the army but things need a thorough shaking up to make possible lists more diverse. Can't wait for January!

Ow boy, it's gonna be an expensive year. 40k 6th edition, Chaos (which I play), Eldar (which I play), Vampire Counts (which I play) and Empire (which I play).

GW likes me in 2012!!!

EffCee
29-09-2011, 10:34
Kemmler had a very good sculpt but... his pose always made me think he was an exhibitionist flashing his goods from under his coat...

First Lady Gaga's 'meat suit' and now this. You should come with a PEGI rating. My poor mind's eye :cries::D

Given the recent trend of resurrecting (no pun intended) old special characters I do think that there is a strong chance of Kemmler returning. I wouldn't mind seeing Neferata return too, definitely with a new sculpt though. I wasn't too keen on the heavy von Carstein influence, with regards to SC's, in the last book.

Mr. Ultra
29-09-2011, 10:47
GW likes me in 2012!!!

No, they like your money. :p

Dual kits uh? I expect they broke the most recent trend and renovate the zombies, they deserve it after 13 years of goofyness.

Frgt/10
29-09-2011, 10:55
Heard about this a while ago but wasn't sure what to make of it. Seems there might be something to it though:

The next army to go on stock rundown in GW stores is Vampires.

This is before things like Empire which some people have been whispering about as well; so my money would be on the toothy ones being released first.

SteelTitan
29-09-2011, 10:56
Considering they just did a dual plastic kit for VC, it wouldn't surprise me if they had focused their 'plastic attention' on some of the older models, such as zombies, knights, and maybe even spirit hosts.

However, our beloved rumour providers mention a dual black coach kit.

@ Special Characters: I too hope they give some of the classic SCs more attention. I'd love to keep Vlad en Mannfred as they are probably the most iconic of all, but seeing the return of "Kemmler and Krell" and Zacharias (still think it's a kickass model) would be awesome too! That or inject more 'bloodline theme' and give one SC for each bloodline.

WarlikeRogue
29-09-2011, 10:58
I'm probably way off in making this suggestion but maybe GW are going to run with a theme (e.g Orktober)

What with the undead robots of 40k and the undead undead of WFB both being strongly rumoured releases.

Just guessing.

silverstu
29-09-2011, 11:10
Heard about this a while ago but wasn't sure what to make of it. Seems there might be something to it though:

The next army to go on stock rundown in GW stores is Vampires.

This is before things like Empire which some people have been whispering about as well; so my money would be on the toothy ones being released first.

So Jan/feb? Too soon? With all the rumours flying around [some more substantive than others] it's hard to figure out what might be coming when.

On a combi kit for the Black Coach- some sort of VC altar?

Shyvax
29-09-2011, 11:25
Given that Krell is getting updated, wouldn't it make sense for Kemmler to get updated as well?

Well they may has well redo the best sorcerer of all time Nagash!!! That would be so cool, not to mention the potential new mini would be awesome in finecast.
/dream

Rosstifer
29-09-2011, 11:53
Time to dust off my 1k of VC and pretend I've been hardcoring them all along. I'm not bandwagoning, honest!

sabbathstevie
29-09-2011, 12:26
New Krell sculpt would have to be pretty good - I really liked the original model.

Arkhan was quite a shock for TK so could we see the supreme lord himself returning to VC?

...probably, sadly, not.

Sanai
29-09-2011, 12:51
Okay, so here are what I imagine could be made using the same kind of components a black coach has-
Wheeled-
Wagon full of prisoners for a vampire to feast on (Blood Wagon? Blood Prison? Meals on Wheels?
Torture wagon?
Altar of necromancy, like the WoC war altar and etc?
Vampire Chariot
Wheeless-
Altar of necrothingy again, except like the casket of souls/dwarf anvil
vampiric crypt thingy



On the nagash thing, Hell no, I hope he isnt included in the army book. If he was, there would be a few problems.
1# Nagash's army was somewhat different to VC armies. Had ghouls and skeletons and zombies yes, but vampires, living necromancers, varghulfs, etc, no (well he had a few vampires... but not many). Had lots of TK style constructs, liches, war machines, etc. Nagash's army would be like a weird fusion of TK/VC which died when warhammer undead faded away.
2# Nagash would be far too weak in a regular army book. If I was to make rules for nagash, he would be powerful enough to cost at least 1500 pts on his own. He is more warhammer forge territory methinks.

Aluinn
29-09-2011, 13:03
Time to dust off my 1k of VC and pretend I've been hardcoring them all along. I'm not bandwagoning, honest!

I wouldn't worry; a lot of the folks who have been hardcoring them, as you put it, will probably quit as soon as they find that the new book does not allow them to have WS7, hitting-on-2s, Regenerating great weapon Grave Guard hordes of 50 models :).

Ah, I kid, but truthfully the army does still have some powergaming adherents remaining from the dark days of 7th. Personally I'm looking forward to it becoming extremely mediocre and winning through the fundamental merits of its units (and magic, probably) rather than funky combos and a few overpowered options. People might actually feel that they can take something other than Ghouls, Grave Guard, and Rare units!

Brian Mage
29-09-2011, 13:42
Black Coach / Corpse Cart dual kit

very easily done. While the CC model is not totally in need of a redo - its an easy fit - much like the OK Cannon Chariot of Brokeness and Scrap Launcher of Now Crapiness

EffCee
29-09-2011, 13:50
Black Coach / Corpse Cart dual kit

very easily done. While the CC model is not totally in need of a redo - its an easy fit - much like the OK Cannon Chariot of Brokeness and Scrap Launcher of Now Crapiness

I can't see it. The Corpse Cart is fairly recent and not in any need of a resculpt. If the Black Coach is a dual kit I imagine that it will be something new.

El Antiguo Guardián
29-09-2011, 13:58
But, is confirmed they go out on January?

eldargal
29-09-2011, 13:59
If you haven't got an email from GW about it, then it isn't confirmed.:)

Lord Skrolk
29-09-2011, 14:01
no confirmation, just heaps of hopes.

loveless
29-09-2011, 14:31
Black Coach/Silver Pinnacle Ancestor Cannon

:p

Definitely not, but I wouldn't be surprised if the other option had some sort of shooting attack - GW seems to have been playing down several of the old "weaknesses" of armies.

ihavetoomuchminis
29-09-2011, 14:32
I wouldn't worry; a lot of the folks who have been hardcoring them, as you put it, will probably quit as soon as they find that the new book does not allow them to have WS7, hitting-on-2s, Regenerating great weapon Grave Guard hordes of 50 models :).

Ah, I kid, but truthfully the army does still have some powergaming adherents remaining from the dark days of 7th. Personally I'm looking forward to it becoming extremely mediocre and winning through the fundamental merits of its units (and magic, probably) rather than funky combos and a few overpowered options. People might actually feel that they can take something other than Ghouls, Grave Guard, and Rare units!

+1 to all.

I know players that left their VC army as soon as 8th arrived, "because now the army is crap". Bye bye powergamers, i won't miss you at all.

Eddie Chaos
29-09-2011, 14:55
Black Coach / Corpse Cart dual kit

very easily done. While the CC model is not totally in need of a redo - its an easy fit - much like the OK Cannon Chariot of Brokeness and Scrap Launcher of Now Crapiness

The Corpse cart is so new I don't see that happening

Midevil216
29-09-2011, 14:56
+1 to all.

I know players that left their VC army as soon as 8th arrived, "because now the army is crap". Bye bye powergamers, i won't miss you at all.

I still play my VC army, and do quite well with it. Most people for some reason can't handle change, pretty sad actualy.

Lord Skrolk
29-09-2011, 15:02
Fact of the matter is that vc are utter rubbish in 8th, being hit by the nerf bat harder than any other race. Yes you can win games still but only if you go ghoul heavy and either gg horde or bk bus. Boring. Fear? Whats that? Terror, whats that? With psychology taking a firm back seat this edition due to bsb rerolls and softened rules on terror etc, our over-pointed troops need to come back in line with core rules. Not to mention our black coach, bats, ghosts, black knights and zombies are so old as to not be useable. Bring on new zombies, plastic coach, flesh gollums, plastic decent knights, correctly scaled zombies, realistic bats and scary ghosts. Not to mention a very much needed points adjustment for much of our troops. Oh, and then there's the magic Whig needs sorting, the bent magic item combos and the largely unused (but a few) bloodline powers. I'm praying for a balanced, diverse, competitive army. Not much to ask. And in light of everything recently, entirely likely.

minionboy
29-09-2011, 15:51
Again, Lord Skrolk, anyone saying that VC have been nerfed the hardest in 8e clearly hasn''t played many games with Wood Elves.

Even in 7th, ghouls were far better than skeletons and zombies, so I'm not sure why everyone seems to have the blinders on and thinks that 8th has made them the only viable unit. VC still are a very competitive army and the tournament results tend to agree with that statement. Actually just last weekend VC won the Grand Waaagh! GT in Alameda CA. When was the last time you heard of WE or Brets winning a big tournament, or hell, when was the last time you heard about O&G winning a GT? And they have a new book! I would also say be careful what you wish for about their magic. Currently VC are the only army that can cast the same spell multiple times with the same caster, something I could see them easily removing in the next book, since they seem to be getting rid of ways that special lores work.

As Aluinn pointed out, all the new armies have been losing their cool magic items, so very easily the Crown of Commandment could go, as well as the regen banner. Things like that could actually really hurt the way VC play.

The only change I've seen in 8th edition to the number of VC players in the bay area is an increase. They are a rock solid army in the hands of a competent general, if you're not doing well with them, it's not because of the book.

loveless
29-09-2011, 16:06
Again, Lord Skrolk, anyone saying that VC have been nerfed the hardest in 8e clearly hasn''t played many games with Wood Elves.

Except that's not the way to look at it - it's not a matter of whether the book can win (and you'll find that you can still make workable lists with both VC and WE), but it's the combination of units in the book.

There are, what, a half-dozen usable units in the VC book if you want to play competitively?

Also consider that it's far easier to fix a straight-forward book like VC than it is to fix a sneaky skirmishing book like WE.

I'm in no way saying that WE don't need it - they sure as hell do. I just happen to think that VC are right up there with them in terms of things that need addressing.


Even in 7th, ghouls were far better than skeletons and zombies, so I'm not sure why everyone seems to have the blinders on and thinks that 8th has made them the only viable unit.

So what you're saying is, internal core balance for VC has been rubbish for at least an edition now :p


VC still are a very competitive army and the tournament results tend to agree with that statement. Actually just last weekend VC won the Grand Waaagh! GT in Alameda CA. When was the last time you heard of WE or Brets winning a big tournament, or hell, when was the last time you heard about O&G winning a GT? And they have a new book!

And what were the VC forces made up of? Ghouls, Grave Guard, and maybe Varghulfs, Blood Knights, and Terrorgheists to taste?


I would also say be careful what you wish for about their magic. Currently VC are the only army that can cast the same spell multiple times with the same caster, something I could see them easily removing in the next book, since they seem to be getting rid of ways that special lores work.

The Lore of the Vampires could use fixing - it'd be nice to play without Invocation/Danse spam. And I don't really see "special lores" losing anything - rather, they seem to be gaining things with Lore Attributes.


As Aluinn pointed out, all the new armies have been losing their cool magic items, so very easily the Crown of Commandment could go, as well as the regen banner. Things like that could actually really hurt the way VC play.

I think you mean "could actually add variety to the way VC play."


The only change I've seen in 8th edition to the number of VC players in the bay area is an increase. They are a rock solid army in the hands of a competent general, if you're not doing well with them, it's not because of the book.

It doesn't even take a competent general - it just takes a competent number-cruncher to throw out the majority of the book and realize that the remnants are pretty damn good. Then it's effectively auto-pilot.

A book that wins too often is just as in need of an update as a book that doesn't win often enough.

Nicron
29-09-2011, 16:16
Another ********** vampire book? Sigh. Didn't they get redone less than 3 years ago? Are GW trying to kill off the brets, WE and chaos? If any armies need re-doing or kits to fill out all the missing things from their army lists, it's those 3. Not the goddamned vampires again, or dwarves, or even empire for that matter. Yeah yeah, empire players, your horses suck, deal with it. I've done the math, and you get more kits per cycle than any other army in fantasy (but about the same amount as the the just as annoying space marines).

Lord Dan
29-09-2011, 16:22
Are GW trying to kill off the brets, WE and chaos?

YEAH! GW needs to start actually putting thou-

...wait, why is chaos on your list?

Deff Mekz
29-09-2011, 16:23
I was thinking the same thing, and Vampire's last got updated 4 years ago.

Deff

eldargal
29-09-2011, 16:25
I don't know though, the VC book is one of the things which led me to quit WFB, they aren't quite as ridiculous now but I think they could still do with a rewrite. After WE and Bretonnians admittedly but GW goes with the popular armies first.

tw1386
29-09-2011, 16:45
I'm sure you guys have heard this a bunch of times but I'll reiterate it again.

GW does not decide a book to be redone by it's perceived tournament competitiveness. Or it's internal balance and all that hooplah.

VC right now have the oldest and ugliest chunk of models still for sale despite their mega update a few years ago.

If you look at it that way, VC are in need of an update model wise.

loveless
29-09-2011, 16:47
VC right now have the oldest and ugliest chunk of models still for sale despite their mega update a few years ago.

If you look at it that way, VC are in need of an update model wise.

If you look at it that way, then GW would be replacing Dwarfs, Dark Elves, or giving another wave of Tomb Kings instead of updating VC.

AmaroK
29-09-2011, 16:51
Another ********** vampire book? Sigh. Didn't they get redone less than 3 years ago? Are GW trying to kill off the brets, WE and chaos? If any armies need re-doing or kits to fill out all the missing things from their army lists, it's those 3. Not the goddamned vampires again, or dwarves, or even empire for that matter. Yeah yeah, empire players, your horses suck, deal with it. I've done the math, and you get more kits per cycle than any other army in fantasy (but about the same amount as the the just as annoying space marines).


YEAH! GW needs to start actually putting thou-

...wait, why is chaos on your list?


Interesting Idea. One of my people mentioned that Black Knights would be 'held back' for a major release. My response was 'that's gonna take some time, I guess?', and he said 'you might be wrong.' That was back in July. He also mentioned a plastic set for undead/chaos trolls.

Yeah, why is chaos in that list? :rolleyes:

El Antiguo Guardián
29-09-2011, 16:59
Undead/chaos trolls? I doesn´t believe that...if exist a new VC book.

McBaine
29-09-2011, 17:12
Oh boy, things look not so bright for the Ladys chosen... I guess I'll just have to go and put a Bretonnian Fandex together...
Meanwhile I wait and see what the Vamps are doing. It is a lot easier to put new units in a Vampire book than in a Bretonnian book without hurting the fluff and keeping it in style... After all you can just take quite any monster/unit and slap an "Undead-" or "Zombie-" in front of the name and there you go: new unit choice ! And that is without original new things like the Terrogheist.
So, I may not be happy about Brets being not the next one in line, but instead of complaining about things I can't change I just look forward to the new stuff coming.
So far it sounds good, and with Krell and maybe Kemmler and maybe Lvl 4 Necromancers coming back I have high hopes.^^

Scribe of Khorne
29-09-2011, 17:15
Lore of the Vampires Attribute - Spells can be recast by the same Wizard as many times as they want.

Thats my prediction. :p

Leggy
29-09-2011, 17:17
On the Wood Elves vs Vamps argument, I completely agree that Vampires have a very restricted choice if they want a top tier army list. Wood elves, on the other hand, have ZERO choice. No matter what you take, they aren't gonna win (unless you're a far, far, FAR superior general to your opponent).

However, Wood Elf minis are still quite beautiful, while a lot of VC models kinda suck. So we win that round.

minionboy
29-09-2011, 17:37
Except that's not the way to look at it - it's not a matter of whether the book can win (and you'll find that you can still make workable lists with both VC and WE), but it's the combination of units in the book.

There are, what, a half-dozen usable units in the VC book if you want to play competitively?

Also consider that it's far easier to fix a straight-forward book like VC than it is to fix a sneaky skirmishing book like WE.

I'm in no way saying that WE don't need it - they sure as hell do. I just happen to think that VC are right up there with them in terms of things that need addressing.

So what you're saying is, internal core balance for VC has been rubbish for at least an edition now :p

I'm saying that since 8e people have been more vocal about the things they didn't mind under 7e. Skeletons were crap then and they're crap now, they're even pretty poor in TK armies who pay half the cost for them and can't IoN spam! The argument that 8e is something special and has in some way made the book worse is not based in reality. The army is still very competitive with lists being very similar to what they were in 7e.


And what were the VC forces made up of? Ghouls, Grave Guard, and maybe Varghulfs, Blood Knights, and Terrorgheists to taste?

You've pretty much described every competitive army in the last 20 years. Most successful competitive armies are based around the most powerful choices they have available in each section of their list.


The Lore of the Vampires could use fixing - it'd be nice to play without Invocation/Danse spam. And I don't really see "special lores" losing anything - rather, they seem to be gaining things with Lore Attributes.

I think you mean "could actually add variety to the way VC play."

For better or worse. Typically when something is done to "add variety" it's actually done to sell models.


It doesn't even take a competent general - it just takes a competent number-cruncher to throw out the majority of the book and realize that the remnants are pretty damn good. Then it's effectively auto-pilot.

A book that wins too often is just as in need of an update as a book that doesn't win often enough.

So what you're saying is that you agree with me? The army book works fine in 8th edition and competitive lists can be written from it? Thank you for agreeing with the point that I've been making the whole time. I (like you) am tired of people saying they can't make competitive lists from this book and that 8e has invalidated it. VC are a perfectly competitive army and as you said, a good selection of the troops in the book are "pretty damn good."

loveless
29-09-2011, 17:51
I'm saying that since 8e people have been more vocal about the things they didn't mind under 7e. Skeletons were crap then and they're crap now, they're even pretty poor in TK armies who pay half the cost for them and can't IoN spam! The argument that 8e is something special and has in some way made the book worse is not based in reality. The army is still very competitive with lists being very similar to what they were in 7e.

Arguably, 8th did make Skeletons more overpriced by changing the way shields and spears work. I'd also argue that TK skeletons aren't bad, though the bow option helps them more - in effect, they're a different beast.



You've pretty much described every competitive army in the last 20 years. Most successful competitive armies are based around the most powerful choices they have available in each section of their list.

Okay, let's skip the competitive aspect then and look at the usable aspect - taking anything other than Ghoul Core (and often Grave Guard Special) hamstrings the army even in friendly play.


For better or worse. Typically when something is done to "add variety" it's actually done to sell models.

That's not a bad thing.



So what you're saying is that you agree with me? The army book works fine in 8th edition and competitive lists can be written from it? Thank you for agreeing with the point that I've been making the whole time. I (like you) am tired of people saying they can't make competitive lists from this book and that 8e has invalidated it. VC are a perfectly competitive army and as you said, a good selection of the troops in the book are "pretty damn good."

Sort of - 8th didn't make the book worse, but it did underscore the weak units by making them even more unattractive.

Say you don't like mustard on your sandwich. 7th edition VC would be a sandwich with mustard - you know there's part of it you don't like. 8th edition VC is a sandwich with rancid mustard - even the people that liked the mustard can tell it's no good.

Also, it's not a good selection of "damn good" choices - it's a tiny selection of "damn good" choices. The book, as it is now, might as well say:
Lords: Vampire Lord
Heroes: Vampire, Wight King BSB
Core: Ghouls
Special: Grave Guard
Rare: Varghulf, Terrorgheist, Blood Knights

The problem with VC is that while the good is very good, the bad is beyond very bad, which makes for an odd situation. Skeletons, for instance, have never been the optimal choice, but 8th erased a lot of their playability.

All I'm trying to say is that the VC book deserves an update - to the extent that I'd put it in the top 2 after Wood Elves, but in front of Bretonnia and Dwarfs. The only reason I see for VC moving ahead of the Asrai is that they're an easier fix...that and the Asrai have better Core choices at this time, imo.

shabbadoo
29-09-2011, 18:31
I think those old rumors of plastic Black Knights turned out to be the Morgul Knights (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1580065_99111464144_LotRMorgulKnightsMain_873x627 .jpg).

That being said, there are probably actual plastic Black Knights on the way too. Hopefully so.

Nicron
29-09-2011, 18:43
Yeah, why is chaos in that list? :rolleyes:

To respond to both of you at once, because I've been playing Chaos in all its forms for close to 25 years, and cannot consider any of the updates to be particularly good, with the exceptions of the plastic Knights and new character models. The ogres/dragon ogres are hideous, the marauders boring, the newest warriors box nowhere near as full of stuff or as dynamic as the older ones and a damn good chunk the list is missing any form of model, or even anything even remotely close to easily convertible. Then go look at the 40K side of things where a ton of the models are older and uglier than anything available today.

After that, take a good look at the army book. I find it to be incredibly generic and dull, especially compared to the older ones, designed for munchkin tournament power-players rather than narrative campaign gamers.

Perhaps I'm just starting to see things through a veil of nostalgia, but to me Chaos has become incredibly conformist and orderly, more like an elite alternate list of empire troops than one of the scariest things the old world has ever encountered.

The VC book is newer than the WoC one, according to my WD shelf, but that's not really my main gripe. VC don't need a new book, especially when there are several armies (even ones I care nothing for unless they're ground beneath the heels of my Chaos Warrior's boots) that need it faaaaaaaaar more. The VC models sure as hell don't need any redoing, with the exceptions of the black coach being done in plastic and some better skeleton riders.

[Edit] I still want to know where the God-based upgrade sprues we were promised for the WoC kit back during the storm of chaos campaign are.

pointyteeth
29-09-2011, 18:52
I (like you) am tired of people saying they can't make competitive lists from this book and that 8e has invalidated it. VC are a perfectly competitive army and as you said, a good selection of the troops in the book are "pretty damn good."

The issue isn't that we can't play competitively, its that we only have one list that can play competitively (with minor variations of course).

Lord Dan
29-09-2011, 18:53
The issue isn't that we can't play competitively, its that we only have one list that can play competitively (with minor variations of course).

It's as if instead of competitive lists, you have competitive list. ;)

pointyteeth
29-09-2011, 19:09
It's as if instead of competitive lists, you have competitive list. ;)

hear hear!

Nicron
29-09-2011, 19:10
The issue isn't that we can't play competitively, its that we only have one list that can play competitively (with minor variations of course).

You've never had an army that's been swamped and dragged down by a hundred and fifty odd skeletons that're constantly being replenished then.

Gods I hate skeleton warriors, tying up all my big scary units of heavily armed & armoured mutant goons 'til the game runs out of turns. Just cos my Warrior hordes can dish out near 60+ S5 attacks on the charge doesn't mean those damned undead go anywhere.

Even in 8th ed, the VC are still my most hated opponent. 3000pt Dwarf gunlines are a cinch to take down compared to a never-ending supply of cheap troops that don't give a rat's nuts about fear, terror or being crushed by a ton of heavy axes being slammed in to their heads :cries:

the gribbly
29-09-2011, 19:12
At the very least each army should be updated with the release of every new edition. Every other game system does this why can't GW?
I've had the same army book since before my kids were born and their both in elementary school now for christ sake! I've literally created and raised two kids built a house and buried several of my friends with this same *********** book and I'm damn ready for a new one!
Besides that many players with a current army book will actually be upset when their book is redone and they have to rebuild their army.
If anything drives players away from this game it's this lack of equal treatment between armies which breeds dissension and bitterness among the players. I'm glad for the vc players who are happy they get another new shiny book but good grief. Management of this game system is simply pathetic. Sorry rant off now :)

pointyteeth
29-09-2011, 19:15
You've never had an army that's been swamped and dragged down by a hundred and fifty odd skeletons that're constantly being replenished then.

Really? I've never been able to raise any unit enough to replenish its casualties. Granted I've only been playing vamps for a couple months and probably don't have all the nuances down pat, but I usually go with caster vamps. (It probably doesn't help that I can roll "broken concentration" on 2 dice with fairly good odds though)

Loopstah
29-09-2011, 19:22
You've never had an army that's been swamped and dragged down by a hundred and fifty odd skeletons that're constantly being replenished then.

Gods I hate skeleton warriors, tying up all my big scary units of heavily armed & armoured mutant goons 'til the game runs out of turns. Just cos my Warrior hordes can dish out near 60+ S5 attacks on the charge doesn't mean those damned undead go anywhere.

Count yourself lucky it wasn't 150 Ghouls, then you'd be crying, seeing as how Ghouls are such a better choice for the same points it's stupid.

Amazonnia
29-09-2011, 19:30
All this is fine, as said, people that own WE, Brets, Dwarfs who has been waiting since 6th ed will be very disappointed and I can understand. My question is what's so complicated that they can't upgrade these armies fast enough?

Lord Dan
29-09-2011, 19:40
All this is fine, as said, people that own WE, Brets, Dwarfs who has been waiting since 6th ed will be very disappointed and I can understand. My question is what's so complicated that they can't upgrade these armies fast enough?

It takes a lot more work, designing, and playtesting to redo a 6th edition army book with lots of metal units than it does to put out a few plastic kits and a tweaked army book for a popular army with an existing and decent set of rules.

Let's face it, GW is a business. They don't redo armies based on which ones look the worst, which ones have the weakest rules, etc. It's all based on which armies will give them the greatest return on their investment. Why else do you think we get a space marine codex pretty much every year?

Algovil
29-09-2011, 19:41
You've never had an army that's been swamped and dragged down by a hundred and fifty odd skeletons that're constantly being replenished then.

Gods I hate skeleton warriors, tying up all my big scary units of heavily armed & armoured mutant goons 'til the game runs out of turns. Just cos my Warrior hordes can dish out near 60+ S5 attacks on the charge doesn't mean those damned undead go anywhere.

Even in 8th ed, the VC are still my most hated opponent. 3000pt Dwarf gunlines are a cinch to take down compared to a never-ending supply of cheap troops that don't give a rat's nuts about fear, terror or being crushed by a ton of heavy axes being slammed in to their heads :cries:

OK, so you dish out 60 WS5 S5 attacks...

That is just over 23 wounds if my math is right

The enemy strikes back... with, lets be optimistic and give them a horde, still after all those attacks, that is 30 attacks. hit on 5+, wound on 5+, then armour save 4+, have you got the 5+ ward as well? lets asume not.

that is 2 wounds being generous.

that means that 21 more skeletons die from crumbling.

Result:

You killed 44 Skeletons = just over 350p

VC killed 2 Warriors = not as many points...

Sure, if there were a units of 50 skeletons... omg who uses 50 skeletons for more than 400 points... Then they might survive one round of combat, we get to heal them, yipee, maybe 5-6 skeletons return, even if we manage to heal a lot of skeletons, we will still lose that big unit.

Stop complaining!

Voss
29-09-2011, 19:56
All this is fine, as said, people that own WE, Brets, Dwarfs who has been waiting since 6th ed will be very disappointed and I can understand. My question is what's so complicated that they can't upgrade these armies fast enough?

Production time and budget. They can only produce X amount of plastic sprues per month... they can vary it a little by doing fewer kits in a wave release and more kits to release along side a book, but they can still only produce X, even if they're stockpiling a portion of it to fill the next month's release. (And also remember that some of X goes to keeping stock levels up in existing kits)

But the point is, they can never produce 3X at once.

Plus there are business & design concerns as well. Do the designers feel comfortable with tackling project A over project B? Perhaps they have better ideas for project B then they do for A. If its just a rehash and points adjustment, is it really worth doing? Will it sell as well? And so on. Its not merely a matter of 'which players are owed a new army book'.

Keith_Lupton
29-09-2011, 21:02
If you look at it that way, then GW would be replacing Dwarfs, Dark Elves, or giving another wave of Tomb Kings instead of updating VC.

I can see the rumoured Necrolith Collossus/Hierotitan kit being a part of the rumoured undead release. Fingers crossed for a new skull catapult also!
Back on topic - My cuz is gonna be peeved off 'cause he just moved onto Wood Elves fom VC in expectation of a new book!!
Any VC players out there who are worried they get similar treatment as TK in respect to the horrid Unstable rules, Useless BSB, Worthless Fear and unexistant Steadfast?

minionboy
29-09-2011, 21:12
Any VC players out there who are worried they get similar treatment as TK in respect to the horrid Unstable rules, Useless BSB, Worthless Fear and unexistant Steadfast?

Um, I'll chime in since I play TK. The Unstable rule is fine, it's pretty much exactly how Undead have worked for several editions. The BSB isn't useless, he just isn't as useful as other choices, all units crumbling less within 12" means you have to win by 3 to crumble 1 wound to a Construct, plus re-rolling swift reforms is very handy for TK with their pretty terrible maneuverability. I don't personally take an icon bearer, but there are definitely times where I wish I had. Fear for TK isn't any more worthless than fear for any other army, actually when combined with the mask on the lord, it's not all that bad. Just like any other unbreakable troop, steadfast/stubborn doesn't mean anything because you don't take LD tests, so what are you complaining about?



Say you don't like mustard on your sandwich. 7th edition VC would be a sandwich with mustard - you know there's part of it you don't like. 8th edition VC is a sandwich with rancid mustard - even the people that liked the mustard can tell it's no good.

Also, it's not a good selection of "damn good" choices - it's a tiny selection of "damn good" choices. The book, as it is now, might as well say:
Lords: Vampire Lord
Heroes: Vampire, Wight King BSB
Core: Ghouls
Special: Grave Guard
Rare: Varghulf, Terrorgheist, Blood Knights

The problem with VC is that while the good is very good, the bad is beyond very bad, which makes for an odd situation. Skeletons, for instance, have never been the optimal choice, but 8th erased a lot of their playability.

All I'm trying to say is that the VC book deserves an update - to the extent that I'd put it in the top 2 after Wood Elves, but in front of Bretonnia and Dwarfs. The only reason I see for VC moving ahead of the Asrai is that they're an easier fix...that and the Asrai have better Core choices at this time, imo.

I think you're also missing a few choices. Wraiths and Banshees are great for Heroes, and IoN spamming on a cheap Necromancer is a great strategy for taking up the enemy dispel dice without hurting the chances to cast with your lord, and saving your vampires from having to use 25 of their magic allowance on a dispel scroll. A unit or two of Dire Wolves for charge redirecting is still nice to have for their points. The Black Coach is still great and so are Cairn Wraiths.

The less competitive units are either of the bats, spirit hosts, black knights (though still decent for cav), Wight Heroes, skeletons and zombies. Overall, there are still plenty of good choices to take, it's just that if you want a competitive list, there is a best core unit to take, a core that many other armies would be very happy to have access to.

I'm not saying that VC don't need an update ever and are perfect the way they are, but no book is ever perfect and this one is far from the worst.

N.I.B.
29-09-2011, 21:28
Any VC players out there who are worried they get similar treatment as TK in respect to the horrid Unstable rules, Useless BSB, Worthless Fear and unexistant Steadfast?
Dam sure. But we're already suffering from Unstable and lack of Steadfast love.
As I'm more into my Nids currently, I'm in no hurry to see my first love, VC, redone. As when I do whip them out, I'm melting face. Boring =/=weak. Anyone that claims that VC are a weak army in 8th ed, can come over here and suck on my deathstar.
And the recent releases have breathed a bit of new life into the stale army. Anyone tried an Unholy Choir army yet? Lvl 4 Deathlord, 2 Banshees, 2 Terrorgheists. Cast Doom and Darkness, profit! Add a couple of Wraith heroes too, and snipe the enemy heroes with magical weapons for control.

I have no illusions that my sorely missed 6th ed bloodlines will stay dead, and we'll lose most of our magical items and powers.

Aercaan
29-09-2011, 21:39
Another ********** vampire book? Sigh. Didn't they get redone less than 3 years ago? Are GW trying to kill off the brets, WE and chaos? If any armies need re-doing or kits to fill out all the missing things from their army lists, it's those 3. Not the goddamned vampires again, or dwarves, or even empire for that matter. Yeah yeah, empire players, your horses suck, deal with it. I've done the math, and you get more kits per cycle than any other army in fantasy (but about the same amount as the the just as annoying space marines).



I completely agree, I play Bret's and we are in dire need of a rewrite (2004, almost 8 Years!). But more so, my mate plays Woodies and they are even worse!.

I know, I know, Its a money thing with GW..Yay for them... but what ever happened to keeping the fans happy?.

At least give us a temp White Dwarf Update of something!, anything to replace the multitude of crossed out and edited pages in my army book.
New minis would be great but I dont really care TBH im happy with the current ones if it would speed things towards a simple rules update.

Keith_Lupton
29-09-2011, 21:48
so what are you complaining about?

Im voicing what my concerns with my TK book are.
I play TK and i havent yet found a reason to take a BSB when i have a choice of a Prince to boost my Skele or TG blocks as a BSB doesnt bring anywhere near as much to our army as other choice available.
All i ask for concerning steadfast is a ability to affect any losses from crumbling when one of our units is steadfast against a opponant.
Fear is like you say, it is pointless for every army that has it available including TK.

I love my TK. I have painted a full 2500 point army since release. Im onto making my Nehekhara terrain now for my board.
Anyway im not gonna derail this thread any more as it will get closed. That would be unfair on our VC friends.

SideshowLucifer
29-09-2011, 22:18
Dam sure. But we're already suffering from Unstable and lack of Steadfast love.
As I'm more into my Nids currently, I'm in no hurry to see my first love, VC, redone. As when I do whip them out, I'm melting face. Boring =/=weak. Anyone that claims that VC are a weak army in 8th ed, can come over here and suck on my deathstar.
And the recent releases have breathed a bit of new life into the stale army. Anyone tried an Unholy Choir army yet? Lvl 4 Deathlord, 2 Banshees, 2 Terrorgheists. Cast Doom and Darkness, profit! Add a couple of Wraith heroes too, and snipe the enemy heroes with magical weapons for control.

I have no illusions that my sorely missed 6th ed bloodlines will stay dead, and we'll lose most of our magical items and powers.

Those death stars get melted away pretty easy by things such as pit of shades and purple sun. Empire can just destroy our magic phase and has a good shot at IF'ing those nasty spells on death stars.

I just plain do not enjoy my army now. Last edition, I ran a ton of skeles and zombies and did great with them because of fear and being able to own the magic phase. Now, I can't raise reliably enough to warrant much attention to it, fear is all but useless, and nearly every tactic I used is destroyed by things like Steadfast. VC have changed a lot due to the new rules. I want my undead army back rather then the one trick pony that it is now. I'll sacrifice what others consider power for an army with units I can actually take.

loveless
29-09-2011, 22:26
I guess I'm just weary of people moaning who needs an update more. If we go by age, the six oldest are Bretonnia, Wood Elves, Dwarfs, High Elves, The Empire, and Vampire Counts.

The Empire and High Elves are probably the best off in terms of number of effective builds (High Elves certainly lend themselves to that with a variety of solid infantry, though I know Silver Helms suffer from being Special). These would require minor updates in both rules and models (+ the addition of their "big kit")

Dwarfs and Bretonnia both feel ancient in terms of book style and models, but I wouldn't say they're suffering too terribly in terms of playability. They could be refined and such, but they still seem to have held up well. Rules updates here would likely be minor, mainly refreshes and points-adjustments. Primary updates would come in terms of models.

Wood Elves have suffered since 7th Edition to some extent. They were simply built to exploit rules that haven't existed since 6th edition. They require a major rules update and a moderate model update (remove hybrid kits, transfer some metal to plastic).

Vampire Counts were bent since their release in 7th Edition. Tournaments, web-lists, and mathhammer quickly broke them. With several undead concepts already in place in the Tomb Kings book, it likely won't take much to update the VC. Minor rebalancing, minor to moderate model update.

Have one team work on the quick fixes while another team works on the heavy updates.

I wouldn't be surprised if GW did look at the 8 or so oldest books and asked who wanted to write them, who wanted to do the art. Then they have to figure out the best way to keep production high while still trying to keep customers happy (happy customers...not their strong suit in many cases).

This is probably why we're seeing Vampire Counts and The Empire coming up - someone wanted to do the art, they had leftover concepts from last time, and someone wanted to fix up the rules. I can see Bretonnia and the Dwarfs getting released a bit after or alternated in-between with those two, but they're going to require a fair bit more sculpting work.

Wood Elves are likely going to end up as the Dark Eldar of Fantasy. Their battle-style is so contrary to most other armies that their refresh is going to be a labor of love - and I'm a bit concerned about who there is going to pick them up (maybe Ward...he's good at circumventing his own rules :p).

Anyway, that was a long ramble, I wanted to just list out the books in order from newest to oldest. (Also, I don't remember this much complaining when the O&G were updated ahead of the Woodies and Brets)


Ogre Kingdoms - September 2011
Tomb Kings - May 2011
Orcs & Goblins - March 2011
Beastmen - February 2010
Skaven - November 2009
Lizardmen - February 2009
Warriors of Chaos - November 2008
Dark Elves - August 2008
Daemons of Chaos - May 2008
Vampire Counts - March 2008
High Elves - November 2007
The Empire - January 2007
Dwarfs - December 2005
Wood Elves - ??? 2005
Bretonnia - ??? 2004

Keith_Lupton
29-09-2011, 22:38
Vampire Counts were bent since their release in 7th Edition. Tournaments, web-lists, and mathhammer quickly broke them. With several undead concepts already in place in the Tomb Kings book, it likely won't take much to update the VC. Minor rebalancing, minor to moderate model update.

Is it heresy to suggest that they are only updating VC because it would be a 'easy fix'. With like you say, a lot of undead rules already in place with TK. Kinda my first thought when i heard the news.

SunTzu
29-09-2011, 22:49
It's not just the question of which is oldest in order of release, though; it's time as well. That list implies VCs are one of the oldest books, and from one point of view they can be said to be so. From another point of view, the VC book is only three years old, but Bretonnia is seven years old. That's just crazy.

As for no-one complaining too much about O&G... it's a new edition of Warhammer, O&G are inevitable, surprised a new Empire book isn't out yet (though rumours suggest it's not far away). No point complaining about that, it'd be like complaining about Space Marines getting a new Codex almost as soon as a new edition of 40K is released. It's just what happens.

What I think annoys some people more about VCs is that there's a suspicion that GW have looked at it and gone "hmm, TK skellies are 4 points, which is right, but VC skellies are 8 points, oh noes we must do something about it!!!" - yet when the situation was reversed and VCs were a top-tier list and TKs were bottom-tier, nothing was done for years on end. Now suddenly the previous VCs are (shock!) only upper-middle-tier!!! and they're getting new models, WD updates and apparently a new book. Can't help but suspect they only updated TKs because they felt they had to, and VCs are the Undead army they really consider important. (Wood Elves and Bretonnia they seem not to consider important at all; and in 40K it's Necrons and to a similar extent Tau getting left in the wilderness. Thing is, though, players do collect those armies; and they feel left out when their army gets ignored for a decade or more, and rightly so IMO, regardless of how "important" GW feels the army is).

loveless
29-09-2011, 23:05
Fair points, SunTzu.

In response to the TK v. VC set-up, I think a lot of that has to do with the mood towards Fantasy. Prior to 8th edition, Fantasy seemed to be treated as the failed eldest child who had to move back to his parents' basement. Now GW is focusing hard on making it successful - in other words, I don't think they cared about discrepancy until recently. I think this is a good sign, myself, if they're actually trying to limit these occurences.

This would also point towards "fixing" non-Dark Elves...the Wood Elves need a champion, though - a Jes Goodwin to their Dark Eldar.

(On the 40K side, I can't wait for the damned new Necron book...they're easily my favorite non-Imperial race in that universe.)

silverstu
29-09-2011, 23:08
Any chance of getting back on topic and maybe taking the discussion of the rights and wrongs of the release schedule elsewhere?

Goat of Yuggoth
29-09-2011, 23:21
In my mind, it's not that horrid that GW updates the armies non-chronologically these days. Bretonnia has the oldest book. So what? It just means that Bretonnia players need to be patient for a little while longer, and updating Brets is not as simple as VC are: they already have a big monster published, and the most "in need" things are ruling issues.

Brets are a bit different, GW has to make sure that the army becomes monetally profitable again, all the players have a ton of cavalry already so they have to make up something really unique to pump out cash from existing players, as well as make the army look cool so that everyone else buys a box or two just for the looks of the models.

And well, VC aren't perhaps the oldest army out there, but it has some of the oldest models, so it's obvious that they're trying to get rid of some terrible miniatures (I'm looking at spirit hosts and the Black coach here, as well as Black Knights), and bring something top-notch in their place.

To be fair, VC is playable, and I'm glad that it isn't a grinding machine any more, but the army needs an update because it's not versatile or relevant to the army's needs. I want all of my armies to consist of more than one build, and VC isn't like that anymore.

It's true that GW has put some terrific armies to dust, but as of late they're trying to make that a thing of the past. Deldar got their new drooly models, and Necrons are getting theirs soon. Fantasy-side, the only terribly dated models are VC ones, and well, Dwarves.

Cheers,
Goat

Clevelander
29-09-2011, 23:41
My guess is that they are moving forward on vampires to cash in on the Twilight fad before it gets too old.

LevDaddy
29-09-2011, 23:50
My guess is that they are moving forward on vampires to cash in on the Twilight fad before it gets too old.

Ha! As sad and lame as that sounds, that has a lot of merit.

LotusCorgi
30-09-2011, 02:38
I suppose that we must brace ourselves for the worst and face the fact that blk knights may not be remade. Right now a unit of five BK with the barded steeds costs $138.25 :(

Scribe of Khorne
30-09-2011, 03:15
I suppose that we must brace ourselves for the worst and face the fact that blk knights may not be remade. Right now a unit of five BK with the barded steeds costs $138.25 :(

Order Mournful Knights, $60. ;)

LotusCorgi
30-09-2011, 03:55
Ok here's a suggestion for the new plastic black coach duel model kit. A large chariot that works as a mount for a wight king with GG driver and maybe a banshee attached to it. It would be the burial chariot of a great king of old along with bodyguard (GG) and consort (banshee). It would work model wise and it would be a great iconic centerpiece that was not von carstein flavored. Just wishlisting....


EDIT: Meh that's totally TK, it'll never happen.

Sanai
30-09-2011, 07:21
Okay, let's skip the competitive aspect then and look at the usable aspect - taking anything other than Ghoul Core (and often Grave Guard Special) hamstrings the army even in friendly play.

Depends on your definition of friendly play. My definition of friendly play is no teclis, fluffy, themed lists, etc, in which case skeletons are fine.
Personally, I actually prefer to use skeletons on a tactical level, as they have access to magic banners, musicians for reform, standards, tomb blade wight kings, etc, making them far more flexible. Also, I hate to field units that are completely devoid of any kind of armour or ward save. Skeletons are perfectly viable in friendly games, and are often taken even in competitive lists as small caster bunkers or to get more standards in for the standard bearer reliant mission.
The only units that aren't viable in friendly games, are zombies, fell bats, bat swarms, dire wolves(unless you using them to frenzy screen blood knights), spirit hosts (which you end up using for winds of undeath anyway), corpse carts (unless your enemy lacks war machines/shooting) and sometimes necromancers.

The fact that tourny lists are cookie cutter isn't really a worry to me at all, as tourny play isn't the main thing in mind when designing rules. All armies have probably two thirds of their options that aren't optimal for tourney play, because it always comes down to one or two powergamer cookie cutter lists (which are pretty irrelevant for friendly play as they tend to be a weird amalgamation of mismatched units that don't belong in the same force, like ghouls/varghulfs being combined with grave guard, wight kings, and blood knights, all led by a caster vamp? What, is your strigoi vamp somehow a blood dragon and a necrarch as well?)

Morkash
30-09-2011, 07:25
A large chariot that works as a mount for a wight king with GG driver and maybe a banshee attached to it.

Sounds very Barrow King like, there was a King on chariot as Lord/Hero choice in their WD armylist. :)
@ Blood Knights: Why new models? Dragon Princes are only 23,50€ for 5? :p

stahly
30-09-2011, 09:03
I think there won't be a dual purpose Black Coach kit - I think it will only build a Black Coach but with multiple configurations like the Lizardmen Stegadon for example.

slayerofmen
30-09-2011, 09:11
I'm having trouble understanding what the big issue with waiting for a book is, look how long it took GW to redo dark eldar (oldest codex? at the time) the new book is HOT

besides VC are a easy fix army, not a redo/ ground up issue that WE or bretts would be

also the only special character that needs to come back is the red duke

Urgat
30-09-2011, 09:17
Order Mournful Knights, $60. ;)

Or do as I did: order BK on ebay: $20 + solvant.

SteelTitan
30-09-2011, 10:10
I guess the question is what will be done first, Empire of VC as different websites report different release schedules, with some as early as October.

Horace35
30-09-2011, 10:30
Im hoping when hastings said "quicker than we can imagine" that his means a pre xmas release. Im itching to add some stuff to my Dwarfs/Empire or start on some VC.

RanaldLoec
30-09-2011, 10:34
The wonderful thing is GW are keeping every one guessing the release scheduling has changed were seeing multi army mini waves along side the traditional larger one army only waves, army books are appearing ahead of the rumour mongers expectations.

It's great to hear multiple armys are being worked it gives you hope, that fantasy is been given the five star 40k treatment after a few years of apathy like production and development.

Vampire Counts and Empire rumours the fact we have some vague but semi substantiated rumours is flippin brilliant.

BRING IT ON.

zak
30-09-2011, 12:20
I don't find Skellies to be that bad. I have to say that Ghouls pound for pound are better, but that doesn't mean Skellies are useless. I see the new book as an opportunity to make all of the army useful and to get rid of the 'must use' items. If the new book follows the lead of the last 3 books then it will be a success.

Daniel36
30-09-2011, 12:29
Great news. Like most of what I hear.

But... again no new zombies?

Can't we have a petition to give to GW or something? I mean... Zombies... They won't just be of use to VC players... They can be used for so many things, but right now the minis are just terrible... And it wouldn't even be that hard to make good looking ones. Empire with torn clothes would be fine in my book.

Am I the only one that would love some new zombies?

mweaver
30-09-2011, 12:32
"we're seeing multi army mini waves along side the traditional larger one army only waves..."

Yes, and I quite like it. I also like it that we are seeing more releases. For that matter, I am quite enjoying Warhammer Forge's releases. It has been a good year for fantasy.

SunTzu
30-09-2011, 12:35
It has indeed been a good year for fantasy; even if I personally don't like the direction GW are taking it nowadays (which indeed I don't) it is nonetheless still pleasing to see it gets lots of attention. And WF brings a warm glow to my heart, to at least an equal amount to which Storm of Magic chilled it.

That attention seems likely to last until the middle of next year at least. But what then? With the new 40K... will Fantasy keep the same focus? We can but hope.

Vazalaar
30-09-2011, 13:16
It has indeed been a good year for fantasy; even if I personally don't like the direction GW are taking it nowadays (which indeed I don't) it is nonetheless still pleasing to see it gets lots of attention. And WF brings a warm glow to my heart, to at least an equal amount to which Storm of Magic chilled it.

That attention seems likely to last until the middle of next year at least. But what then? With the new 40K... will Fantasy keep the same focus? We can but hope.

We can hope, but I am enjoying the moment. If after mid 2012 Warhammer recieves less attention, so be it;)
Now what can we expect for Warhammer in November?

jme
30-09-2011, 13:31
I'm having trouble understanding what the big issue with waiting for a book is, look how long it took GW to redo dark eldar (oldest codex? at the time) the new book is HOT

besides VC are a easy fix army, not a redo/ ground up issue that WE or bretts would be

also the only special character that needs to come back is the red duke

I would guess The Red Duke will be returning as the next Warhammer Heroes book from the Black Library is about him.

Gekiganger
30-09-2011, 14:22
Great news. Like most of what I hear.

But... again no new zombies?

Can't we have a petition to give to GW or something? I mean... Zombies... They won't just be of use to VC players... They can be used for so many things, but right now the minis are just terrible... And it wouldn't even be that hard to make good looking ones. Empire with torn clothes would be fine in my book.

Am I the only one that would love some new zombies?

I'm torn, I dislike the clown hands etc - the quality is miles behind new kits, but I like the old multi part kits, Can't say I'll be as happy with a new zombie kit if it loses all the funky options and we get 2 piece things.

Morkash
30-09-2011, 14:38
I found the zombies ok if mixed with something else - the Zombie Pirates from some years ago (mixed with Militia) looks still great, even if both kits are not the newest!

SideshowLucifer
30-09-2011, 14:47
I'm ok with the zombies; I guess Sylvanians are just bigger then other folks.

Kriegschmidt
30-09-2011, 15:17
I avoided the GW zombies altogether and have about 50 of the Mantic Zombies (Oops! I swore! :eek:). They are much nicer, and they also kindly give you enough parts to make more zombies than it says on the box.

To chip in: I use Skeletons as the mainstay of my army too, and they do just fine.

Extremely excited about the prospect of a fairly soon VC release.

Daniel36
30-09-2011, 15:49
Well, I really do hope they release new ones. I guess a Skeleton army has its charms as well, but I am just such a zombie fan.

Goat of Yuggoth
30-09-2011, 16:04
Indeed. The zombie kit is so horrible, even though the number of zombies can be stretched to some 40ish from one box, with clever use of spare bits and extras.

And I do have some 150 zombies already, but if they provided an option for much better zombies I'd gladly chop 'em up and mishmash with a new kit.

Maybe they'll make zombies better first, then see how the old box sells and then make a new and shiny one when the stack of old boxes has dwindled a bit.

But I'm good with everything they'll give me, I'm only buying stuff that looks rad.

The Red Duke would be a nice alternative for the usual special characters, ie. less tricky, more vampiry.

And I just wish that GW would finally do a purchasable Female Vampire, the newest one looks like that goofy lady from "Wallace & Gromit: The Curse of the Were-Rabbit". I bet I just traumatized someone with that image :D

Here's hoping,
Goat

mweaver
30-09-2011, 16:17
Gekiganger: "I'm torn, I dislike the clown hands etc - the quality is miles behind new kits, but I like the old multi part kits, Can't say I'll be as happy with a new zombie kit if it loses all the funky options and we get 2 piece things. "

I love the zombie models! They have tons of character, and as Gekiganger notes, they mix beautifully with the older multipart kits. I would not objec to new zombies, of course, although I think they will lose some of their flexibility.

Kriegschmidt: "I avoided the GW zombies altogether and have about 50 of the Mantic Zombies (Oops! I swore! ). They are much nicer, and they also kindly give you enough parts to make more zombies than it says on the box."

Really? Interesting. I bought a box of their ghouls, which looked nice... and I was very disappointed at how limited they were - basically two bodies and very few head options. I like having lots o'bits that let me make a huge variety of different poses.

SideshowLucifer: "I'm ok with the zombies; I guess Sylvanians are just bigger then other folks. "

It's the swelling from the gases. Ewwww. The size doesn't bother me, probably because we use them for D&D more than WH, and most of our players are using Reaper minis for their characters, so the zombies are not at all oversized in that context.

Kriegschmidt
30-09-2011, 16:46
Really? Interesting. I bought a box of their ghouls, which looked nice... and I was very disappointed at how limited they were - basically two bodies and very few head options. I like having lots o'bits that let me make a huge variety of different poses.

You won't be disappointed with the Zombies :evilgrin: I've got about 20 of the Mantic Ghouls and I agree that they are quite limited. However, the different angles you can play with do give you a reasonable amount of variation. The zombies are more varied though.

Oh, and I think the Mantic Ghouls are infinitely nicer than the GW ones, which I find horribly cartoon-y.

loveless
30-09-2011, 16:47
I have nothing against the current Zombie kit, though I wouldn't be surprised to see a new one. The "Warhammer Zombie" changed a bit last time - turning into things made of bits of dead flesh and other random battlefield bits (see Corpse Cart, VC Zombie artwork). I'm not sure how I feel about that set-up, but if GW decides to pursue it or build upon it, the kit would be a logical addition.

Though it does seem that every miniature company, game company, and back-alley sculptor has a zombie kit, so it's not as though there aren't alternatives (regardless of what GW does).

Midevil216
30-09-2011, 17:14
I have no problem with the current Zombie models, there are far more units/models in the Vamprie count list that needs attantion over Zombies ATM. Plus if there is a new unit that will take up a "Release Slot", if you will, when they come out.

Skellies (Check)
Ghouls (Check)
Dire Wolves (Check)
Corpse Cart (Check)
Fell Bats & Bat Swarms (Stink, need a re-do)
Grave Guard (Check)
Black Knights (For sure need a NEW plastic kit)
Spirit Hosts (Current one are horrible, they need a re-do)
Banshee&Wraits (Check)
The Coach (could stay the same just finecast it, though it does look dated)
Blood Knights (Check)
NEW UNIT??

Prehapse there is room for a new Zombie kit...

zak
30-09-2011, 18:17
Unless they make Zombies more useful, other than giving away free combat resolution, then it doesn't matter even if they do redo them. I would have prefered the original Zombie kit to have more state troop type bodies rather than all peasant farmer bodies and having to buy to kits to acieve this.

Student
30-09-2011, 18:47
The upside of not having had a new WE book for ages is that I've got some good mileage out of mine. To try and be balanced VC rely on fear almost as much as WE rely on skirmishing and both of these have been changed a lot in 8th. Even though I don't collect them I look forward to a new VC book though. I've always been tempted by skeletons, they look much easier to paint.

Brotheroracle
01-10-2011, 00:21
I hope you can make "Zombie Levy" units out of the new kits I miss the zombie crossbowmen from the storm of chaos list.

Gekiganger
01-10-2011, 02:46
And I just wish that GW would finally do a purchasable Female Vampire, the newest one looks like that goofy lady from "Wallace & Gromit: The Curse of the Were-Rabbit". I bet I just traumatized someone with that image :D

Here's hoping,
Goat

I certainly wouldn't complain about a new female vamp, the current one isn't THAT bad, but she doesn't look like a lahmian. Then again, GW have always struggled with females...

I'd really love them going back to the old Carstein look but I'll eat my hat if that happens, it's too tongue in cheek for their current feel. Shame, I love old Bela Lugosi / Christopher Lee dracula flicks, used to love vlad but his current model looks too necrarch for me and the old one is so dated.

TsukeFox
01-10-2011, 03:23
There are like 40 (forge world has a new bsb) vamp chars, that is more than chaos- why do vamps need a new char at all-??
Yeah I am a jealous hater

Shatterclaw
01-10-2011, 03:39
Begging the general's pardon..

But wasn't there some thing in last months White Dwarf about Vampires counts?

It was a one page blurb, had the studio army about to go to war.. but for the life of me I don't recall the wording , Some thing to do with Vampire counts and October.. At first i thought it had some thing to do with dread fleet, but I don't think it did.

Any one else see that, or can shed some light on the matter?






The wonderful thing is GW are keeping every one guessing the release scheduling has changed were seeing multi army mini waves along side the traditional larger one army only waves, army books are appearing ahead of the rumour mongers expectations.

It's great to hear multiple armys are being worked it gives you hope, that fantasy is been given the five star 40k treatment after a few years of apathy like production and development.

Vampire Counts and Empire rumours the fact we have some vague but semi substantiated rumours is flippin brilliant.

BRING IT ON.

Lord Dan
01-10-2011, 13:07
There are like 40 (forge world has a new bsb) vamp chars, that is more than chaos- why do vamps need a new char at all-??
Yeah I am a jealous hater

There actually aren't that many vampire models (the forge world BSB is a wight king).

Superpotts
01-10-2011, 15:52
I am so happy to see this news!!!

Come on skeleton and zombie armies with no vampires being plausible!

WOOOOOOOO!

Lathrael
01-10-2011, 15:53
There actually aren't that many vampire models (the forge world BSB is a wight king).

Which wight king you are talking about? :confused: Can you post a link? I couldn't find it anywhere...

Edit: oh I found it... Nice one but I may need to convert the banner. V.carstein does not fit to my tastes.

Daniel36
01-10-2011, 16:02
Gekiganger:It's the swelling from the gases. Ewwww.

I can actually live with them now that you said that... And ewww indeed.


I have nothing against the current Zombie kit, though I wouldn't be surprised to see a new one. The "Warhammer Zombie" changed a bit last time - turning into things made of bits of dead flesh and other random battlefield bits (see Corpse Cart, VC Zombie artwork).

Though it does seem that every miniature company, game company, and back-alley sculptor has a zombie kit, so it's not as though there aren't alternatives (regardless of what GW does).

I do like that artwork of the patched up zombie. I hope that if they do release a new set they take some of that for inspiration... They would be truly different from all other zombies.

As long as they don't put skulls all over them...

But though you are right and every mini company has zombies, honestly... None of them work for me. They are either "contemporary" zombies, or there are too few or too differently scaled to fit in WH.

TheZombieSquig
01-10-2011, 16:15
Having just read the Empire rumour about a single war wagon kit which can be dedicated to either Morr, Sigmar, or Ulric... perhaps the Black Coach will be similar, with options for Lahmian, Necrarch, etc., modifications. Or maybe just different functions, like the stegadon, as someone said earlier.

Tokamak
01-10-2011, 18:58
A coffincart, Nosferatu's favourite form of transportation .

Tlotsqi
01-10-2011, 20:13
A friend of mine said to me that the coming VC release is only a miniatures update. His source is a GW employee.
Personnally I wonder if this flesh golem thing wouldn't be a new plastic zombie's 3up, as I heard things about them. They are supposed to look like bodged corpses, like the corpse cart ones or the zombie picture in the VC army book bestiary.
Sorry, nothing more reliable than that...

GreenDracoBob
01-10-2011, 20:47
I'd be happy with that, really. As much as I'd like a new book that fixes some of the internal balance and lore, I think I'd rather see new Zombies and Black Knights more than anything (well, and cheaper, plastic Blood Knights, but I do not expect them ever really).

silverstu
01-10-2011, 23:09
The 3-up thing sounds possible, but these rumours about a new book and the "flesh golems" come from Hastings who is usually pretty much spot on- I'd be inclined to believe them.

Flogger
02-10-2011, 10:57
As long as they don't get to spam spells anymore I'll be happy..

~Revenant~
02-10-2011, 12:46
The kev adams zombies were amazing, I wish GW would go back to that with fine muscle exposed details and little bits of half zombie half skeleton, I know the heads are a bit too big but if they shrunk them down to realistic size they would look nasty and evil.

My problem with the zombies since their release back in the 90s was yes, sure...they have mutli parts and both the naked torso's are great, and the skeletal arm, but most of the heads in it are far too junky, the weapons are very lacking and most of the torsos are really god awful, look how thick the cape is on the one torso.

They work totally find for townsfolk zombies, but that's all they are good for.

I would much rather have soldier looking zombies, not 100% but enough that they resemble empire troops, it would be more effective than the current ones imo. I think GW did a great job on most of the current plastic undead but the graveguard are pretty meh at best, In fact I don't think the bat wings and skulls look really works with undead...it's far too cheesy and over the top to be taken seriously, I would much rather them focus on going to town on damage details, seeing giant bat helms is just stupid. It's fine for say coat of arms on shields for CHARACTERS but not on zombies or skeletons.

Yes we can simply convert current empire troops by slicing into them with a hobby knife but that's not the same.

SotF
02-10-2011, 13:04
Yes we can simply convert current empire troops by slicing into them with a hobby knife but that's not the same.

You know, one thing they could do is make a smaller kit, say the equivalent of 5 zombies if you build straight from it, and market it as a conversion kit for various other kits to make zombies.

~Revenant~
02-10-2011, 13:27
I'm a big fan of the mid 80s undead line GW did, they had a very generic but coherent look to them, lots of patches of armor hanging on them, chainmail, rivets, scale and patches of cloth with interesting poses, the skulls they did at the time had a great style too with the slightly evil eye sockets, even crack denting in the skulls themselves.

The plastic ones were decent back then too as they had more realistic sized weapons, the only downside to them was the undercuts were terrible, the second plastic release was poor imo the weapons all sucked and the shields were cringe worthy at best.

I mean seriously we know yes a necromancer raises hordes of the undead but they sure as hell do not have the time to sculpt bones onto shields like it's out of a comic book, even the chest plates they had on a few of them looked like someone strapped a frying pan to them cmon if they had any armor it would be breastplates or scraps of chain, not this comedy!

GW has an obsession with skulls but it does not look cool, scary or even good when blinged on undead like that, it just screams "hey look at us we are undead look at all our identical skulls and bat wings, in the far grimdark we are all going to be night lords tee hee!", the last two versions of metal graveguard they did were good though they can easily be painted up as ex bretonians.

I think the current dire wolves are utter trash, they are so cartoony and look at all the HUGE chains hanging off them, the heads are alright but they are like the size of the 1992 knight ponies ( I mean horses! ).

They just need to get one of those great french or euro indy sculptors in general and say hey we need to you sculpt some undead for us that look undead but not cheesy, or get jes to work on them...he would do wonders for a new undead look since anything he sculpts is pure gold, and anything that GM sculpted was out of cat dung.

In fact...they should just pull Aly Morisson and tell him: your working on the undead, we want you to sculpt most of the bodies in the style you did in the 80s, but town down on the weapons size and keep the details on them interesting not HUGE arrows or crap like that, I dunno some kind of script work on them.

And get him to redo the emprire how he did them in the marauder style too, and that empire troops all wear boots unless they come from ostland.

Gekiganger
02-10-2011, 13:35
In fact I don't think the bat wings and skulls look really works with undead...it's far too cheesy and over the top to be taken seriously

I find it hilarious to see 'undead' and 'too cheesy' in the same sentence when talking about GW products, considering they hail from what was essentially retro horror movies - the army.

I want my Bela Lugosi vampires, mummies, ghosts and whatnot back.

~Revenant~
02-10-2011, 13:45
If done right ( ie modern sculpting quality with oldschool citadel character ) it can look very effective.

For example if you check out the paint job of the sample army in 6th ed VC ( the black one with all the conversions ) that's alot more serious looking.

http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20305skeletons.htm

http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20312zombies.htm

There is SO much detail in these and at their size its hard to believe, compare them to the plastic ones now.

As another example, check out the nurgle lord on horse...get jes to work on them, he will really improve them 1000x fold, and with how the plastic is now they can easily put that kind of detail into them.

Necromancer2
02-10-2011, 14:34
All of the lines have been going the Cartoony look for the most part... it ruined TK IMO.

So I hope VC don't get the same treatment.

Lakomasoi
02-10-2011, 14:44
What was toony in your opinion? Other than that I hope they don't give VC everything that TK players were hoping for...

Tokamak
02-10-2011, 15:23
Snake surfing skeletons is cartoony, sure.

You better start to get used to it. It's GW's art direction. Previous editions of the armies were a bit more gritty and had more noisy textures giving it a more realistic appearance. The sculpting progress has moved on and into plastic territory where everything needs to be smooth and slightly feathered.

Another culprit is that simply more is possible these days. Finecast and plastic have lifted the limitation of weight that metal had on models. Computer design then ensured that more complicated constructions are possible which then allowed for more fantastical and more exaggerated models.

These two developments cause Warhammer to look cartoony and stylised.

I've learned to appreciate it. In the it's easier to sculpt realistically than to maintain a coherent style. These days it looks like all models start to belong in the same universe. Which is great. The details on the model are starting to actually matter, to mean something rather than being clutter to artificially making a model look more detailed.

Silvertongue
02-10-2011, 15:30
Actually, the only thing that came across to me as "too much" in the TK release was that horrid "I SERIOUSLY HAVE TO PEE NOW!" Liche Priest. I'm fine even with Snake Surfers.
The thing with Vamps is that there are simply too many ways to ruin a vampiric concept. You let yourself go, and you'll end up with frilly-everything and a white wig, complete with beauty spot over the lip.
I very much liked the newer style of vampires GW developed, even if it's sometimes a bit too Chaotic. The only things I didn't like were the ubiquitous "my cape is turning into bats or something", and the ugly faces. In fact, if they fixed both things, I'd collect vampire counts.
And now, to get slightly on topic, I'm frankly scared about the so-called Flesh Golems. They can be simply awesome, but they can look horribly... horrible if they go the bloated route. There are simply too many "fat and bloated" things in WHF.

Tokamak
02-10-2011, 16:14
I hope they're fat and bloated, that's the way big and death things get, I'm more afraid they turn out to be skeletal, like the dragon and that other big thing.

Depulsor
02-10-2011, 16:22
Well... on one hand its cool, to see VC getting a new book so soon...
on the other hand, Maybe they should have waited a bit, to properly analyse how the TKs work with their new book.

Especially the core skelletons of the TK seem still a bit expensive/crappy/dont really work as tarpits ect.

~Revenant~
02-10-2011, 16:34
The current ghouls are alright but they also look a little cartoony in some respects, this is mainly because there is little variation in them, it's basically a bunch of running forward hunched over slightly tubby looking ghouls.

The last edition metal ones were about the best, better than any metal before it at least, they had a more sickly degenerate cannibal look to them, very primitive and mental.

You can really imagine those ones weaseling around buildings in sylvania or ghost towns, just waiting for some troops to come walking through the streets and they they all come out and feast on them like madmen.

There is just something about the new ones, I don't think they suck but they look wrong ranked up.

The plague cart is excellent, that's a good example of step in the right direction, the vargulf or whatever its called looks fairly good, the cairn wraiths and banshees look decent too.

The vampires look pretty sub par, it's not the detail rather the style to them that blows, that horrible morphing junk on their capes and stuff no just no....I know they were trying to suggest dramatic in action crap but it's not really as effective as when done with a painting or drawing.

Luckily GW at least has the right traditional idea over vampires, that in folklore they are not um...heh....we shall say not pretty boy heart throbs, but disgusting corpses that feed on the living, cold and evil not prissy.

They just need to work a bit more on that look when it comes to minis.

Bloated zombies with the kinds of details that the new plastic nurgle lord has all over him would be much welcomes, I think they took a tip from the FW GDON cause those fat cavities and dripping intestines is how you do it kids, I can see a ton of those uber french painters really making him extra distusting with their mad nurgle paint skills.

Tokamak
02-10-2011, 17:23
The current ghouls are alright but they also look a little cartoony in some respects, this is mainly because there is little variation in them

Plastic technology also has moved on since then.

mweaver
02-10-2011, 18:24
I think Revenant and I seem to have similar tastes in undead (ummm, that is, undead esthetics).

Revenant: "[The plastic zombies] work totally fine for townsfolk zombies, but that's all they are good for."

Fortunately, between D&D and Mordheim, that is mainly what I use them for. I would love "soldier" zombies, but sure hope any future new zombies retain the multi-part flexibility of the current ones.

Revenant: "...the graveguard are pretty meh at best, In fact I don't think the bat wings and skulls look really works with undead...it's far too cheesy and over the top to be taken seriously...

I really dislike the "lookit me I'm spooky with the giant wings on me helm and stuff" look of a fair number of the VC elites. A well-sculpted skeleton with armor and weapons is going to look pretty cool in its own right, if sculpted well.

Revenant: "The current ghouls are alright but they also look a little cartoony in some respects, this is mainly because there is little variation in them, it's basically a bunch of running forward hunched over slightly tubby looking ghouls."

I don't know that I would consider the cartoony. In fact, I do like them - but the pose does make them look too much the same, especially since they are no longer skirmishers and have to rank up (which means the second rank appears to be sniffing the front rank's butt, which doesn't help their overall appearance).

The new dire wolves are my least favorite of the VC line. I can't figure out how to paint them where I think they will look right, and I have never seen painted versions where I like the result.

There are of course a large number of models in the VC line I quite like, of course.

sometimesafish
02-10-2011, 18:38
I really like the look of gw's new models. I don't think they are cartoony, they are all simply stylised. I think the new models have have some dark humour feel to them, which I like and is one of the things that sets warhammer apart from any other military game.

Goat of Yuggoth
02-10-2011, 19:25
I think I actually like the current Ghoulies more, the old metal ones always looked like "Look mom, grampa's eating a rock in the graveyard!" to me.

The current ones, on the other hand, look Lovecraft to me. Dozens of generations of inbreeding would probably make you look like that, it's plausible and believable that these things aren't human more than from their expressions.

The flesh golems? Well, I sure like bloated things, and bloated dead things sounds even better. But the thing is that they're golems. So, they will probably hold something more to them than just mangled bodies tied together. Maybe they're like huge constructs, don't forget that vampires are former native Neherkahrians (now that's bound to be misspelled), so they will most probably be something more sinister than just "these are Boomers".

I'd like to see if some sculptor did some new zombies in the future and was heavily inspired by L4D or Dead Island, as VC do tend to get inspiration from the pop culture of the surrounding world.

Cheers,
Goatee

Sanai
02-10-2011, 19:47
Personally I very much love the current ghouls. They have alot of character, and if you pose them right, each one is a unique individual, with his own personality. Its hard for me to avoid naming all of my ghouls.

Also, I like the skulls/bat wings. It is very warhammer- the entire warhammer worlds structures are bedecked in symbols of death and the night, as this is a very different world to ours. It is a world soaked in magic and constantly at war. Death is a part of dailly life. You can't even safely visit the local graveyard at night without an armed escort lest you be eaten by ghouls.
Also, the skeleton/grave guard models represent the ancient culture that left barrows all over the place, a culture that was even more death obsessed than most. The armour these warriors wear is often their funerary armour. Also, ancient barrow tribes chief warriors would definatly bedeck their armour/shields with skulls, bones and dragon/bat wings, the better to frighten their enemies.

The final point, is that dark magic warps whatever it touches. This is a fantasy setting where when magic gets a bit out of control, giant pillars of skulls with thrones atop them and flying chaos discs just emerge out of the ground, so of course any skeletons you raise are gunna get more covered in terrible images of death as the magic warps their bones and armour.

El Antiguo Guardián
02-10-2011, 19:49
The best model, i think, is the new zombie dragon...

Tokamak
02-10-2011, 19:53
Fortunately, between D&D and Mordheim, that is mainly what I use them for. I would love "soldier" zombies, but sure hope any future new zombies retain the multi-part flexibility of the current ones.

In the end all you really need separate is their heads. If full (headless) bodies then mean they can fit more on a sprue and make the models look more coherent, then I'm really happy.

GreenDracoBob
02-10-2011, 20:01
I also think that the Undead armies the GW would have us play as are a little more prepared than "Dude walks into a graveyard, brings dead to life, fights all manner of armies." Especially with the recent fluff for Zombies and the design of the Corpse Cart, Vampires and Necromancers are thoughtful villains that spend some time preparing before going to war. So you'll have Zombies put together with bits of wood and rusty blades tied to rotting forearms. You'll have Skeletons which are given the heraldry of their master. And you'll have Wights being armed with images of death and symbols of the will that guides them.

Which is not to say that guys popping up out of the ground randomly during a battle wouldn't happen. It would, as we can see with the current background and rules. But the vast majority of the Vampire's armies will be gathered, prepared and armed just as any other army about to march upon the world would. So for me, the imagery and uniformity of the Undead armies is justified, if not the ways things would always be in the Warhammer setting.

Lusall
02-10-2011, 21:13
I really hope this is false...there are so many of armies that need an update first...

~Revenant~
02-10-2011, 22:01
I understand that dark magic warps things, but I still disagree with the flying cartoon helmets and skulls all over the place, it's quite redundant when the models are walking death themselves.

That's not to say they should never have these sorts of things, but it's not scary, its overdone and looks downright stupid and funny.

I know alot of stuff does end up looking this way in FB yes but but older undead had more of a serious and living dead look to them, the poses were that of shambling forward rather than more natural living stances.

I don't have a problem with the new skeletons, those I think they did close to perfect, but the insane oversized horn the musician has is downright obnoxious and so out of place, a drum would have been much better since dark magic or not they have no LUNGS! and it...looks stupid lol

Personally I think more of a ren or baroque dark scripting kind of style to their armor and weapons would give a far more serious dramatic and creepy look to them.

One thing with the ghouls ( new ) I think the sculpts are fine its just that they rank up playing human centipede now, but I suppose you could have some of the front row facing off on angles like they are running forward but splitting off as the ranks get closer.

Silvertongue
02-10-2011, 23:46
a drum would have been much better since dark magic or not they have no LUNGS!

Oh Khaine, not this argument again!
They have no EARS so they don't frickin' care what instrument is played. Also, no one says the skeleton is really blowing that horn.
And guess what: they have no muscle or sinew, and they are standing! SHOCK HORROR! You know, skeleton minis should be just little piles of bones on the floor.

Playing a fantasy game and complaining about the fantasy in it. Rational. Yes.

Gekiganger
03-10-2011, 02:18
Maybe they're like huge constructs, don't forget that vampires are former native Neherkahrians.

Cheers,
Goatee

Only the most ancient of vampires will be nehekheran, the majority will have been raised since the original generation fled, I'm not even certain any of the nehekheran vampires bar the first generation escaped. The Nagash books at least make it looks like most of the others they sired died. Nagash certainly has room for making bone constructs, he has a few in the books - but vampires don't really fit with that, necromancers do kind of make sense though.


Oh Khaine, not this argument again!
They have no EARS so they don't frickin' care what instrument is played. Also, no one says the skeleton is really blowing that horn.
And guess what: they have no muscle or sinew, and they are standing! SHOCK HORROR! You know, skeleton minis should be just little piles of bones on the floor.

Playing a fantasy game and complaining about the fantasy in it. Rational. Yes.

There's a difference between magic animating bones and magic somehow making lungless skeletons able to breath. Arguing that something is 'fiction' doesn't excuse it's internal sensibilities, otherwise I guess you'll find it completely reasonable for me to have an army of Empire halberders with flying stands on their bases, they all fly and fight with their fists, which hit as hard as halberds because it's a fantasy setting.

It's also not like musicians are made for the troops anyway, it makes perfect sense that they're imbued with some degree of initiative to play a different beat depending on the situation they find themselves in, it's the necromancers / vampires that need to hear it. Not other skeletons, they're not in charge. A bit convulted maybe, but bite me.

You can argue a lot of things, but defending a skeleton with a horn is just silly.

Arijharn
03-10-2011, 02:50
Maybe this is just me being petty; but I hope that the next Vampire Counts book isn't called 'Vampire Counts.' Sure; have Vampires in it, as they're awesome, but I'd like a more neutral name if anything, so that it doesn't go against the imagery to have a Necromancer (even the Great Necromancer?!) leading an army of the undead.

GreenDracoBob
03-10-2011, 03:26
snip

I think Abhorash's story talks about him taking a few of his close disciples to the north with him, so there is potential for a few Nehekaran Vampires running about besides the Bloodlines' namesakes (or at least, there were).

As for the horns for the current batch of plastics, I like them. The army is wholly magical, so there are a lot of ways to justify them, but I think they look cool. :shifty: I'm not sure which is creepier, though: a silent horde of Undead, despite all its musicians, or an army without the physical means to vocalize anything yet cackles and moans. People are free to feel otherwise.

And yet, it seems strange that there is no cognitive dissonance between the argument that Grave Guard and Zombies should not have Vampire-themed equipment ("They were just raised!"), yet they should only have instruments which make sense for Undead ("They have no lungs!"). Wouldn't the dead soldiers have all sorts of music, including drums and horns? Oh well, think what you must.

-Loki-
03-10-2011, 04:40
Maybe this is just me being petty; but I hope that the next Vampire Counts book isn't called 'Vampire Counts.' Sure; have Vampires in it, as they're awesome, but I'd like a more neutral name if anything, so that it doesn't go against the imagery to have a Necromancer (even the Great Necromancer?!) leading an army of the undead.

Why would they need to rename it? The 6th edition army book allowed exactly that. Non-vampire leaders. They just weren't the focus. The list also has just about all of the Undead archetypes aside from Mummies. Skeletons, Wights, Wraiths, Banshees, Zombies, Ghosts, it's all there still in the Vampire book. Vampire Counts basically already is an Undead Army book, but the focus is on the Vampires. Tomb Kings is a very specific subset of Undead. Allowing non-Vampire leaders for VC again even without making them the central part of the list or fluff would basically be bringing back a full Undead list.

Harry
03-10-2011, 05:49
I feel like one of the driving forces behiind the last book and its focus on the Von Carsteins was not only to give them a strong theme but to place them somewhere on the Map.

Vampires must live all over the known World but by focussing in on Sylvania it grounds them somewhere as an army rather than some individual vampire scraping out a solitary existence with his own personal agenda.

Now necromancers must also live all over the known World as well but I imagine there might be more in Sylvania. I would think any living anywhere civilised would soon be found out and hunted down so maybe there is safety in numbers, maybe their practices draw less attention to them in a land where the animated undead are a part of daily life.

The Vampire Counts name is really just to differentiate them from undead led by Tomb kings but is as much about identifying where they come from as it is who leads the army. The book is essentially about the Vampire Counts of Sylvania. It would be like calling the lizardmen 'Slaan Mage priests of Lustria', or Dwarves 'Dwarven Lords of the Worlds edge mountains'. Now they haven't done that becasue they don't want to limit where the other armies come from but if we take the Dwarves as an example the army book is clearly describing and allows builds from the remaining Dwarf strongholds in the worlds edge mountains ... it is not describing an army of dwarves based in the empire or even their poor cousins in remote mountains in other parts of the world.

BUT that does not stop anyone with imagination placing there Dwarf army anywhere in the world they like ... placing a few fluffy restrictions on them ... not wealthy enough for lots of grommril so no iron breakers. No engineers guild so no Gyrocopters etc.

So I don't think the name of the book really restricts who leads the army OR where it comes from ... it just allows you to give an army a strong them based in a land with a detailed history and backstory if that is what you want.

-Loki-
03-10-2011, 06:43
That's kind of what I was trying to say :shifty:

It's called Vampire Counts because that's the focus of the fluff, though I personally think the 7th edition book took it too far and basically did Warhammer Armies Von Carsteins.

Allowing non-Vampire leaders would basically allow you to run a generic Undead army list, as everything is in there. Necromancer Lord, his Wight King servant, leading a bunch of skeletons and Wights backed up by all manner of Undead things, is basically a plain Undead army. However, with a big focus on Vampires themselves, you can make a thematically correct Vampire led army as well.

Simply allowing non-Vampire leaders doesn't require a name change to Warhammer Armies Undead. The fluff would still be focused on the Vampires, and they'd still be a huge part of the army list, so it would still be a Vampire army book. It just allows you to also run a more generic Undead army list without Vampires if that's what you really wanted to do.

Gekiganger
03-10-2011, 07:38
I'll chime in that I see no reason to rename the book, I'm more interested in the content than the cover - not that a nice piece of artwork isn't appreciated. Always liked carstein vampires so I'm probably slightly bias, but even they come second to a good ol' neromancer.

That said, I doubt it would be that hard to play a necromancer with vampire stats, even if it would need pointing out to the opponent and might feel a little odd if he's too fighty. Not ideal, but beats nothing if it really irks you enough.

I'd be surprised if stronger necromancers didn't make a return though, the new GW books seem to have a fair bit of variety, plus we've just got a new necromancer model released recently, I'm sure the cynics can whip up some tin foil hat plan over that.

Late
03-10-2011, 08:23
I'm also all for the return of master Necromancers. Also, bring back Heinrich Kemmler and Dieter Helsnicht, albeit the latter could benefit from a new sculpt.

Darnok
03-10-2011, 08:44
I'd appreciate if we could leave wishlisting land again.


Darnok [=I=]

Daniel36
03-10-2011, 08:51
I think Revenant and I seem to have similar tastes in undead

Very siggable.

Anyways, I disagree with the "cartoony" feel of the releases. Sure, O&G was cartoony, but when were they any different? OK had some awesome new monsters that felt very "Dark Crystal" style, which is a good thing, and aside from the Snake Surfers, TK had the sphinx which seemed to fit very well...

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I like the direction GW is taking with giving each army a big gribbly... I wouldn't like a gribbly in my Empire army, but that is because I like the massed ranks idea behind Empire. If I had any of the other armies I would definitely get them gribblies.

I hope the Flesh Golem / Hulk thing turns out to be true. Would make an excellent centerpiece for undead.

Urgat
03-10-2011, 08:56
Why would they need to rename it? The 6th edition army book allowed exactly that. Non-vampire leaders. They just weren't the focus.

Because they did use the book name as one justification to tone down necromancers in the current book when they talked about it in the WD.

-Loki-
03-10-2011, 09:00
Because they did use the book name as one justification to tone down necromancers in the current book when they talked about it in the WD.

That was just their choice for 7th edition. If you go back and look at the 6th edition army book, not only will you find an even more fleshed out Bloodline system than we currently have, with alternate army lists for non Carsteins, but also the ability to lead armies with Necromancer Lords and Wight Kings.

And that book was called... Warhammer Armies Vampire Counts.

Grimmeth
03-10-2011, 10:27
The only concern I've got for the Undead Construct thingy is that it might wind up being rather Skavenesque.
The HPA is already effectively a mismatch of parts from various other monsters, I'm definitely not saying it can't (or shouldn't) be done as long as it is distinct enough to be a VC's own creation.
I'd assume some influence from Frankenstein's Monster would be taken though.

druchii7
03-10-2011, 10:39
Vampires must live all over the known World but by focussing in on Sylvania it grounds them somewhere as an army rather than some individual vampire scraping out a solitary existence with his own personal agenda.


should we expect next VC armybook to be also focused on sylvania? or will it change backwards retaking the different clans in characters?

or maybe they will reintroduce them as units? for example... golems could perfectly be zombie constructs, but could also be enormous strigoi vampires. nechrach clan could perfectly fit as an option for black coach, in the same way as blood dragon were redirected into blood knights (wich I think was a fantastic idea)

or maybe... most clans will still be appart from armybook as in current armybook

Late
03-10-2011, 10:50
^Well, isn't the Varghulf basically an enormous Strigoi?

Urgat
03-10-2011, 11:24
That was just their choice for 7th edition. If you go back and look at the 6th edition army book, not only will you find an even more fleshed out Bloodline system than we currently have, with alternate army lists for non Carsteins, but also the ability to lead armies with Necromancer Lords and Wight Kings.

And that book was called... Warhammer Armies Vampire Counts.

I know, and so what? They said something like "since it's called vampire Counts, we thought we should focus more on vampires and less on nercomancers this time". Please explain to me what your point is besides telling me how it was before (not that I needed it, I started playing when it was still Warhammer Undead)?
To sum up, they basically said "since it was called VC, it was wrong to have the focus away from VC".
If anything, the new OK book went the same way, gnobblars are anecdotical at best now when they were everywhere before. And the reasoning was probably "it's called ogre kingdoms, not ogre and gnobblars".

-Loki-
03-10-2011, 11:45
To sum up, they basically said "since it was called VC, it was wrong to have the focus away from VC".

And it's right, the focus should be on Vampire Counts. The fluff should be focused on them, they should have a lot of focus in the army list. I don't think I got my point across.

This doesn't mean the army list can't make other armies. Simply adding back in Necromancer Lords and allowing them and Wight Kings to lead the army allows you to make a more generic Undead army without vampires, but still with powerful spellcasters in the form of Necromancer lords and fighters in the form of Wight Kings.

The vampires are still there. They're still the focus. The army list, however, can also make a generic Undead army. I wasn't saying don't do this. I was saying add it without taking the focus away from the vampires. Both parties are happy. The people that prefer the vampires still have their vampire focues list. The people that want to make an army based around a powerful Necromander or Wight King or whatever can do that too, there just won't be as much fluff for those armies and not the insane amount of customisation individual vampires get on those characters.

Tancred II von Quenelles
03-10-2011, 11:49
Eah, I need lrgal rules for my barrow kings of Queluex in their crusade against orcs!

Urgat
03-10-2011, 11:51
And it's right, the focus should be on Vampire Counts. The fluff should be focused on them, they should have a lot of focus in the army list. I don't think I got my point across.

This doesn't mean the army list can't make other armies. Simply adding back in Necromancer Lords and allowing them and Wight Kings to lead the army allows you to make a more generic Undead army without vampires, but still with powerful spellcasters in the form of Necromancer lords and fighters in the form of Wight Kings.

The vampires are still there. They're still the focus. The army list, however, can also make a generic Undead army. I wasn't saying don't do this. I was saying add it without taking the focus away from the vampires. Both parties are happy. The people that prefer the vampires still have their vampire focues list. The people that want to make an army based around a powerful Necromander or Wight King or whatever can do that too, there just won't be as much fluff for those armies and not the insane amount of customisation individual vampires get on those characters.

The point is, you (we, I share the same opinion) may say or think whatever you want, GW said "it's VC so we're pulling the necromancer lords". That's it, that's all, end of story.
So if they have kept the same mindset (and, as I said, the new OK book makes me think they do), as long as it is called "Vampire Counts", you won't get necromancer (or wight) lords. That's the point I was making, and no amount of explanation will change it. So, if they've kept the same mindset, your only luck to see necromancer lords will be to have a "Lords of Undeath" or whatever armybook.

Goat of Yuggoth
03-10-2011, 12:00
I think it was somewhere in between the Lustria expansion book and the CSM codex that GW stated they were not doing multiple armies in a single army book anymore. They thought that it would only make the books look chaotic for the beginning player, and thus all those cool narrative lists and suggestions (like the Lustria) were pretty much just dusted off the table and under the carpet.

Now I know what you're going to say: GW has taken this back recently by introducing Special Characters, who alternate the build you can take, and mess up the restrictions for the army (such as some unit not being 0-1 if you take them). This is fine, and could indicate that a Necro Lord might return, but more likely as a SC.

But the point I'm driving through here is that GW still had that "one book, one list, no fluffy lists" - thing going on when VC was released in 7., and they wanted to focus Vampire Counts on Vampires (obviously). And that's why bloodlines became generic and the necrolords were erased.

Now they might want to make them reappear, or then not. The same goes for the bloodlines, they might become SC that allow you to transform your army into a more focused, coherent force of a single bloodline.

Just throwing a coin in ;)
Goatee

Frgt/10
03-10-2011, 12:43
^Well, isn't the Varghulf basically an enormous Strigoi?

the varghulf IS an enormous strigoi :p

-Loki-
03-10-2011, 12:54
Isn't it more 'ancient Strigoi are Vargulfs' than 'ancient Vargulfs are Strigoi'? The army book entry says some of the most ancient Vargulfs vampires from the Strigoi line, but not all Vargulfs. They're just bestial vampires that let their bestial nature go too far.


The point is, you (we, I share the same opinion) may say or think whatever you want, GW said "it's VC so we're pulling the necromancer lords". That's it, that's all, end of story.
So if they have kept the same mindset (and, as I said, the new OK book makes me think they do), as long as it is called "Vampire Counts", you won't get necromancer (or wight) lords. That's the point I was making, and no amount of explanation will change it. So, if they've kept the same mindset, your only luck to see necromancer lords will be to have a "Lords of Undeath" or whatever armybook.

Well, it's more the write who takes a book in the direction it goes. Hopefully the new writer puts back in some of the cooler generic Undead things. The reinclusion of Heinrich Kemmler gives me hope.

Urgat
03-10-2011, 13:17
The reinclusion of Heinrich Kemmler gives me hope.

True, hopefuly, this rumour turns out to be accurate. I'll try and believe it will, as I hope to see necromancers back (during 6th ed, I often faced a necro army, the dude dropped his army altogether when the necro lord was dropped. Shame.). But as Goat of Yuggoth said, Kemmler could just be a one shot, just like, dunnop, Throgg didn't introduce troll characters into the WoC list.

Col. Dash
03-10-2011, 13:21
Call me a heretic, but why have a summoner at all? I would like to play a pure undead army with a Wight King worthy of the name leading wight hero characters, grave guard, skeletons, and all the etherials. Not a huge fan of vampires or necromancers as I am more Army of Darkness in mind when I think of undead. This should be a generic undead book, like the space marine codex is a generic marine codex. If you want vampires, great, you go Twilight-boy! If you want necromancers, be a necro-philiac and shag all the zombies you want. If you want pure undead haunting a giant barrow(potentially anywhere in the game world) ticked off at having been woken up, play wight kings.

Lathrael
03-10-2011, 13:26
You can argue a lot of things, but defending a skeleton with a horn is just silly.

It's quoted in the book, they actually blow these horns. Bones themselves are came to life with magic, and with the magic that can move bones, moving the air inside of it is just nothing.

Oh, they can "hear" too.



the varghulf IS an enormous strigoi :p

Shame, they reduced bloodlines to that... Blood keep knights instead of blood dragons, varghulf instead of strigoi... :mad:

Edit: Edited instead of double posting.

Deaf Paradox
03-10-2011, 14:03
Shame, they reduced bloodlines to that... Blood keep knights instead of blood dragons, varghulf instead of strigoi... :mad:

Edit: Edited instead of double posting.

I always thought that the Varghulf is what happens when they lose control or give themselves up to the bloodlust and could happen with any bloodline, some kind of metamorphosis as it were.

The Strigoi/Ghoul King from the new Terrorgeist shows the new Strigoi model no?

Either way, I'm glad that the new Strigoi rider represents the old artwork :)

Sorry for the derail :eyebrows:

Lungboy
03-10-2011, 14:06
True, hopefuly, this rumour turns out to be accurate.

Has it even been rumoured? I said it would be nice back on p3 i think, and it's gone from there, but i haven't seen any actual rumour.

Urgat
03-10-2011, 14:46
It comes from Harry and Hastings talking about a new Krell mini, and Krell and Kemmler are like Laurel and Hardy, you can't really have them separated.

Daniel36
03-10-2011, 16:06
So if they have kept the same mindset (and, as I said, the new OK book makes me think they do), as long as it is called "Vampire Counts", you won't get necromancer (or wight) lords. That's the point I was making, and no amount of explanation will change it. So, if they've kept the same mindset, your only luck to see necromancer lords will be to have a "Lords of Undeath" or whatever armybook.

Well, Wood Elves could make a Forest Spirit army...

I for one truly hope that there will be Necromancer generals and a differentiation between the different bloodlines. I don't understand how that can't happen now, they did basically that for Wood Elves as well and it worked quite alright.

Kindred - Bloodlines, what's the difference? Give each Bloodline a stat change and a special skill and you'll be done. Perhaps also give each bloodline a bonus for one specific unit (Necrarch better zombies, Blood Knights better... You get it)

But again that is wishlisting.

At least we will be getting lovely new gribblies. Undead are my favourite armies I don't play.

Gekiganger
03-10-2011, 16:10
It's quoted in the book, they actually blow these horns. Bones themselves are came to life with magic, and with the magic that can move bones, moving the air inside of it is just nothing.

Oh, they can "hear" too.

I wasn't claiming that it wasn't 'lore', just that it's god damn ridiculous.


It comes from Harry and Hastings talking about a new Krell mini, and Krell and Kemmler are like Laurel and Hardy, you can't really have them separated.

Krells mini is a lot more dated. When I was a kid, one of my uncles friends had one that gained a reputation for being drunk, was on the floor more often than it's feet.

Kemmler is still one of the best miniatures GW have ever produced in my eyes.

Urgat
03-10-2011, 16:30
Krells mini is a lot more dated. When I was a kid, one of my uncles friends had one that gained a reputation for being drunk, was on the floor more often than it's feet.

Kemmler is still one of the best miniatures GW have ever produced in my eyes.

Fluff-wise, I meant.

valle
03-10-2011, 19:32
Oh, and the models can have something no MI in the game have yet..... maybe something like the terrorgheist, but smaller?

You mean like the Banshee's GHostly howl? ;o)