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View Full Version : CSM: Question on how you expand your legions (in the context of a possible new dex)



SteelTitan
29-09-2011, 15:33
Hey guys,

I have a question on how you guys expand you CSM army. Let me give you a quick example of my personal situation:

Ive been collecting CSM for about 5 years and have around 4000 points of painted marines. Everything is Death Guard themed with the appropriate colour scheme. I also included a couple of 'neutral' units, such as obliterats, vindicators, and I even use Abaddon (but renamed him) and gave all of these the nurgle scheme. However, I'm tired of the scheme and would like to focus on other legions.

Now, with a new dex on the horizon (if you believe rumours), Im doubting what to do if I expand now. The problem is not in the legion units, such as berzerkers, but rather the more 'neutral' units in the codex. Last week, I bought a Defiler and two predators.

I don't know whether to leave them unpainted, paint them black legion style (which doesn't really have my interest), or go for another legion. However, with a probable MAJOR codex rewrite, the risk of having to repaint stuff (to run it in the legion that you like best in the new dex) is big.

Now that the 'scenario' is a bit clearer, I would like to ask how you deal with your legion expansions :)
How do you decide which units to add to which legion-army? And how does this change now with a possible new dex?

Inquisitor Kallus
29-09-2011, 15:37
Im hesitant on building me Khorne Bezerkers and Terminators using the FW upgrade kits. The reason is because i'm worried that theyll discontinue the sets if GW brings out new plastics. If ive made and painted them then expanding my army will probably look weird because of the different aesthetics

Latro_
29-09-2011, 15:47
I fleet between armies my DG army is 2k have 2k WE 2k IW and have a generic 1.5k army on the go at the minute

I generally stop a legion at 2k I think thats enough for any army really. Can then mix and match legions for fun games or apoc.

Like i often take my DG and WE and play games wither either or I have a couple of hybrid DG+WE lists i run which are quite fun.

SteelTitan
29-09-2011, 16:10
Yeah, I wouldnt have a problem with running a mixed force myself (although regular Black Legion doesn't appeal to me...yet) but it's more about dedicated certain units to a Legion and then wanting to switch when the new dex hits.

For instance; I paint up two Predators WE style (red etc), but once the new dex is out I don't like the WE options at all / fluff / uncompetitive and realise I would have been better of painting the Predators TS style because that is where it is at in the new dex.

I'd be a pain to having to repaint or rebuy models that are done 'wrong' like this.

As to different aesthetics, I dont worry about that too much because if you're in the game long enough, you'll have older and new models mixed up anyway. Nothing you do do about that.

I guess the problem here is that it's basically four armies in one while at the same time commiting yourself to one of those four if you stick with the GW scheme for a legion.

Mit Gas
29-09-2011, 16:57
And that's the good thing if you choose a legion that you like on a less superficial note: you won't have to change anything. Since you care about the game mechanics so much and if your future army could be one of the weaker forces, I'd go with your very own chapter...

Carlosophy
29-09-2011, 17:01
Why not make your Chaos Legion a Warband? Then you could mix and match whatever you liked: Nightlords Bikers, Cleaved Raptors, Word Bearers Terminators etc.

Personally Id paint make sure all the Predators had Daemonic Possession and paint them as Thousand Sons Rubric Tanks.

DuskRaider
29-09-2011, 17:16
I've been playing Death Guard for ten years. I will continue to play Death Guard through the new codex, I don't care how powerful they become or how gimped they become. It's the army I started with, I enjoy the hobby and the fluff of the force, I will play them. Stop getting hung up on petty crap and you'll learn to enjoy the army more.

samiens
29-09-2011, 17:24
It seems highly unlikely that intermixing of legions will be prohibited- that hadn't happened since 4th edition. Look at eldar (no craftworld rules), space marines (where characters from different chapters can be used together), daemons etc.

You might see movement of cults back to elites with characters to unlock them as troops but I would suspect mixing will be ok. Worst case scenario- they're all allied to abaddon and use black legion rules.

It would really suck if it was the restrictive mess of a system in the 3.5 ed codex

ashc
29-09-2011, 17:48
as Samiens says, the closest to limitations I would expect would be the cult troops back in elites, unlocked to troops by having an appropriate HQ. I would expect mostly everything else to be fair game if you want to play a 'legion'.

Askari
29-09-2011, 18:00
I used to be pure Thousand Sons player, but since the 4th Ed Codex I've created my own Traitor Chapter, the Dark Lancers.

This makes expanding my army much easier - whatever doesn't fit in a Thousand Sons army, gets a Dark Lancers paintjob and off we go.

Even then, some units don't fit with my Lancers either as they're Tzeentch worshippers, such as Khorne Berserkers, Obliterators and Plague Marines. These simply get "counts-as" models.

Power Armoured Marines with Large Chaos Warrior Shields -> Plague Marines
Power Armoured Marines with 2 Chain weapons each -> Berserkers
Terminators with Havoc Missile Launcher racks, Heavy Weapon of some sort, Power Fist and fist-mounted Storm Bolter -> Obliterators.

Warsmith Tharak
29-09-2011, 18:09
I play Iron Warrior and Death guard.
I do not care about if the power level goes up or down for any of them (I have played iron warrior since 3ed, before they were "cheesy"). I buy what I like and what I feel goes with the army (all las predators instead of obliterators for my death guard, plauge hulk instead of defilers, you get the idea).
I play the legions I like the look and feel of, not for some arteficial power level.

@samiens: what restrictive mess? If your leader was marked with a mark other than undivided, you couldent inklude the opposite mark. A one sentence rule does not a mess make in my eyes.

samiens
29-09-2011, 18:23
I was actually talking about the rules for playing specific legions which were, in general, highly restrictive. The general (black legion) list was ok, but didn't allow you access to some of the daft freebies that up powered "characterful" lists so much.

That said, even the opposite marks restriction should not return in my opinion, and likely won't in line with daemons etc

DuskRaider
29-09-2011, 19:15
How were they restricted? You took things that your particular Legion would take. It's your choice to play a Legion, and if you do then you abide by the rules. An army consisting of Chaos Undivided does not a World Eaters army make. That's what Undivided was for.

samiens
29-09-2011, 19:23
Well, its fair to say that in 2nd ed I didn't imagine world eaters as such an organised legion that only ran 8 man squads and literally only contained bezerkers. In the old fluff the legions were broken and squads were individualistic- anything went.

3.5 ed codex moved away from warbands to contradictory legion fluff. Heck, the codex had a very cool image of a plague marine with a heavy bolted in the book of nurgle which you couldn't take. (At least you can have nurgle icon havocs now)

My issue is that actually the restrictions placed on lists were far more restrictive than any of the novels etc. It was far too ordered for my tastes. I applaud the move to less restrictive lists where if it works in your head you can do it.

ashc
29-09-2011, 19:42
the force org slot swapping, limits on rhinos for plague marines etc. were indeed a bit too much, and I wholeheartedly agree with what is being said.

RunepriestRidcully
29-09-2011, 19:45
Heck, the codex had a very cool image of a plague marine with a heavy bolted in the book of nurgle which you couldn't take. (At least you can have nurgle icon havocs now)



There is also a cool picture of a thousand sons rubric marine using a plasma gun.. I'm keeping my stuff, but after seeing apologists ultramarines and sons of Horus am now thinking of doing a few true scale marines myself... I enjoy painting and moddeling so I don't mind what comes in the new codex as long as it is not as bad as ward's grey knight one (just ruined grey knights for me, was not fun to play any more.) and I'm hoping for cultist and beastmen packs to come in, and the forge world rapiers as well.

DuskRaider
29-09-2011, 21:30
Well, its fair to say that in 2nd ed I didn't imagine world eaters as such an organised legion that only ran 8 man squads and literally only contained bezerkers. In the old fluff the legions were broken and squads were individualistic- anything went.

3.5 ed codex moved away from warbands to contradictory legion fluff. Heck, the codex had a very cool image of a plague marine with a heavy bolted in the book of nurgle which you couldn't take. (At least you can have nurgle icon havocs now)

My issue is that actually the restrictions placed on lists were far more restrictive than any of the novels etc. It was far too ordered for my tastes. I applaud the move to less restrictive lists where if it works in your head you can do it.

I will agree to a point. The one thing I like about the new codex is the fact that I can make World Eater tactical & devastator squads, which is nice. But this whole 'We all get along just because' rubbish really needs to go. The animosity of the Gods needs to make a come back. Or make it so you CAN take Noise Marines with your World Eaters, but they're a 0-1 choice and you have to follow rules of animosity, which means at any point, that squad of 'Zerkers close to the Noise Marines may just say, "screw this, let's kill those foppish pretty boys". Otherwise, we end up with the fluff butchering crap like the current "2x Lash, PM - Berserker Oblit" list people field, which makes my eyes burn.

And BTW, the "restriction" of Rhinos in Death Guard lists actually was a good thing... ie, after 2 troops of Rhinos, any units in Rhinos are considered Fast Attack, which means you could have 9 units of Plague Marines instead of just 6.

samiens
29-09-2011, 21:43
But not a rhino for each unit...

Problem I have is that fluffwise those things should be able to happen. Maybe its not common but to be fair chaos lords are highly unlikely to turn up for every mission.

To utterly restrict something for fluff reasons seems wrong to me. It should be up to players to interpret and implement the fluff to fulfil their vision. We don't need gw to tell us how to build our armies.

My personal black crusade has Death Guard, Black Legion, Emperors Children with some Word Bearers and possibly some World Eaters very soon. I'll be most displeased if gw tell me I can't field my units together for no good mechanical reason.

ashc
29-09-2011, 21:52
Also, lets remember at the end of the day gw want to sell miniatures, why limit what they can sell to you with restrictions. . . I am pretty sure its why god animosity went too, as well as 0-1 limitation slots.

Wyrmwood
29-09-2011, 22:06
But not a rhino for each unit...
You could still have five. Besides, you could always put them in a Land Raider.


To utterly restrict something for fluff reasons seems wrong to me. It should be up to players to interpret and implement the fluff to fulfil their vision. We don't need gw to tell us how to build our armies.
I agree with this, but therein lies part of the problem. As DuskRaider says - this is how lists like the Lash princes, Plague Marine and Berzerker spam; Obliterators are born. That said, I think that counts-as can be a good thing if someone has a truly interesting concept, or something that enriches the enjoyment of playing. To remove it entirely, or boil it down to sub-lists is a little much.

Though '3.5' catered for Legion lists and thus couldn't field an ultra-kill death team with the best of everything from each Book of Chaos, it did remove a certain element of creativity. You could always argue that it was removed because you could, theoretically, build perfectly fluffy and interesting lists.

I'm still a fan of the Codex, but in recent days I've come to understand that it was too cookie-cutter and, in a way, nudged Chaos into the two-dimensional path that we're experiencing from Games Workshop today - in terms of character development.

There needs to be a compromise, so that both are present in the same book without the kinds of restriction seen in '3.5', but not the absolute free-for-all that is the current Codex - and no, not unlocked by a *********** special character.


My personal black crusade has Death Guard, Black Legion, Emperors Children with some Word Bearers and possibly some World Eaters. I'll be most displeased if gw tell me I can't field my units together for no good mechanical reason.
Welcome to counts-as, which is probably what you're already doing. :)

ashc
29-09-2011, 22:08
Of course, if the current book was at least internally balanced in the first place it would go a fair way towards helping people feel they can play different styles and themes without crippling themselves at the 'choosing an army list' phase of the game.

Latro_
29-09-2011, 22:54
I think its pretty certain there will be a catch all army where you can take any unit under the same banner.

I would imagine more themed stuff will be like most of the new books over the past few years, you'll have a character say kharn, who'll unlock army special rules like making bezerkers troops (if they get moved to elites in the new book) etc etc etc

just like the likes of logan, the baron, vulcan, corteaz, wazdakka etc etc the list goes on. I think just about every newer book follows this format.

DuskRaider
29-09-2011, 22:58
I miss actual options I had for my Death Guard. I could kit a Lord (or even Champion, or even Terminator or Chosen) with some very unique gear that, while I may see another Death Guard player at game night, chances are it wouldn't be built the same as mine. I'm also VERY against the idea of characters unlocking an army for me. Typhus isn't Death Guard, don't make me take him to play Death Guard.

The current codex has no options, it has no flavor. Give me my options back. THAT is what I miss. That and going to game night and seeing potentially 9 separate Legions being played (most I saw was actually 6 on a particular night), whereas everyone is playing the same tired and boring crap list I mentioned earlier. Maybe it's the players. Maybe people are so concentrated on this competitive hogwash that they lost all creativity. I think that's it.

Wyrmwood
29-09-2011, 23:09
I miss actual options I had for my Death Guard. I could kit a Lord (or even Champion, or even Terminator or Chosen) with some very unique gear that, while I may see another Death Guard player at game night, chances are it wouldn't be built the same as mine. I'm also VERY against the idea of characters unlocking an army for me. Typhus isn't Death Guard, don't make me take him to play Death Guard.

The current codex has no options, it has no flavor. Give me my options back. THAT is what I miss. That and going to game night and seeing potentially 9 separate Legions being played (most I saw was actually 6 on a particular night), whereas everyone is playing the same tired and boring crap list I mentioned earlier. Maybe it's the players. Maybe people are so concentrated on this competitive hogwash that they lost all creativity. I think that's it.
I agree completely. I looked back over the Codex recently, and lamented the amount of options you could use to customise characters - going so far as to give a Chaos Space Marine Aspiring Champion a set of Terminator Armour. In a way, it's good that we don't have that today... Or a lot of Codex: Chaos Space Marine bearers may, in fact, be Iron Hand players.

I love the concept of the book, I just think it's flawed in some respects. In contradiction, I both love and dislike the sub-lists and the Books of Chaos - it's what Chaos needs, only reworked.

samiens
30-09-2011, 00:06
No developers can balance that many options. Proper marks would be nice though or the option to put cult units in termie armour.

The current chaos monolist exists not because it caught the attention of competitive players but because there's nothing else in the codex that is competitive. I'd dearly love more competitive options so there's more variety, something the last few lists have lacked. Frankly, in the hogwash of 3.5 ed codex only a couple of legion lists were viable and those were the only ones I really encountered- it wasn't so varied back then.

Frankly if a codex can give enough options to allow players to represent each legion with a few decent options in each slot ill be happy. We don't need restrictions, just a good codex. Just as you can represent any craftworld with codex eldar, we need the sane for chaos marines

DuskRaider
30-09-2011, 00:22
Viable? According to what? Tournaments? What don't people get about this not being the focus of the game...

samiens
30-09-2011, 00:33
Well, its a game so winning does come into it for most players and lots of people don't like being continually smacked. Its not just about ultra tournament play but most people like a close game and the obscene differences in power level in the 3.5 ed codex did influence people.

Truth is game balance is an important design concern and needs to be included as well as fluff.

And lets be honest, the game is designed to sell models- not to fulfil background expectations or to cater to competitive gamers- that's ultimately what the game is about!